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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On November 25 2015 05:32 Twoflowers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:24 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:16 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live (and work) in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? Of course they could. They have modern western weapons. You think the Turkish military is some rag tag group or something? The Russian MOD has stated they will be deploying and using state of the art anti-NATO jamming equipment immediately which they weren't using until now because they had an agreement with the US not to mess with each other in Syria. Turkey would get rofl-rolled in any case. edit: Not like Turkey would have the balls to try anything like this anymore, personally I think it was a tad bit naive of the Russian air-force not to have ground attack planes covered by fighter aircraft on every mission. if everything fails, russia can ask north korea to deploy their secret technology to keep NATO in check...
That's what i was gonna say, plus the time travelling devices that they didn't use yet out of kindness. But, poking/ridiculing russian trolls starts to get really boring now.
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On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq
Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt.
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On November 25 2015 05:24 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:16 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:00 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit. it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live (and work) in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? Of course they could. They have modern western weapons. You think the Turkish military is some rag tag group or something? The Russian MOD has stated they will be deploying and using state of the art anti-NATO jamming equipment immediately which they weren't using until now because they had an agreement with the US not to mess with each other in Syria. Turkey would get rofl-rolled in any case. edit: Not like Turkey would have the balls to try anything like this anymore, personally I think it was a tad bit naive of the Russian air-force not to have ground attack planes covered by fighter aircraft on every mission.
Just to get it right.
First you tried to imply that Russian Military Cruiser is something scarry, then you got pointed out it's just junk from late 70's.
Then you tried to imply that Turkey would not have balls to do something like that, right after they shot down their flying junk.
Dude, just post some photoshop of Turks with svastikas already, lets be done with it.
Bonus points for "state of the art".
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On November 25 2015 05:34 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:32 Twoflowers wrote:On November 25 2015 05:24 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:16 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live (and work) in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? Of course they could. They have modern western weapons. You think the Turkish military is some rag tag group or something? The Russian MOD has stated they will be deploying and using state of the art anti-NATO jamming equipment immediately which they weren't using until now because they had an agreement with the US not to mess with each other in Syria. Turkey would get rofl-rolled in any case. edit: Not like Turkey would have the balls to try anything like this anymore, personally I think it was a tad bit naive of the Russian air-force not to have ground attack planes covered by fighter aircraft on every mission. if everything fails, russia can ask north korea to deploy their secret technology to keep NATO in check... That's what i was gonna say, plus the time travelling devices that they didn't use yet out of kindness. But, poking/ridiculing russian trolls starts to get really boring now.
Well I guess we shall all see in the coming days what will happen, Turkey has already shown its military might, only a superpower could shoot down an aircraft that doesn't have air-to-air missiles in the back. I don't know about you guys but I'm already starting to learn Turkish. Russia should just pack up and leave, no way anyone can stand up to Turkey.
edit: Wow with the strawmen guys. Basic reading comprehension dictates that I never implied Moskva could take on the entire Turkish military. You do know there is more than one ship in a navy?
Read this slowly with me: One - ship - on - anti-aircraft - patrol. If - the - Russian - navy - is - on - alert - Turks - won't - risk - their - entire - flotilla - taking - out - one - AA - ship.
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I never said it's junk.
It will be retrofitted with modern (russian) technologies, but if they're better than turkeys cruisers (same age) with western retrofits is arguable. Even more so if you want to argue, like Zeo, that it can take out eight of them.
Well I guess we shall all see in the coming days what will happen, Turkey has already shown its military might, only a superpower could shoot down an aircraft that doesn't have air-to-air missiles in the back. I don't know about you guys but I'm already starting to learn Turkish. Russia should just pack up and leave, no way anyone can stand up to Turkey
.. eh? I don't even know what i'm supposed to answer, since that doesn't make any sense. And yes, we'll see what comes after this. Wanna bet, if russia tries a stunt like that again, the result will be the same?
We're talking erdogan here. Literally a turkish putin. Both are populistic retards. You will never see either one apologizing or holding back.
edit: Wow with the strawmen guys. Basic reading comprehension dictates that I never implied Moskva could take on the entire Turkish military. You do know there is more than one ship in a navy?
No, what you said is "lol, turkey taking out a russian missile cruiser, never". Not "lol, taking on the entire black sea fleet".
Stick to your words.
People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol?
Answer: yes, easily.
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On November 25 2015 05:39 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:34 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:32 Twoflowers wrote:On November 25 2015 05:24 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:16 heliusx wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live (and work) in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? Of course they could. They have modern western weapons. You think the Turkish military is some rag tag group or something? The Russian MOD has stated they will be deploying and using state of the art anti-NATO jamming equipment immediately which they weren't using until now because they had an agreement with the US not to mess with each other in Syria. Turkey would get rofl-rolled in any case. edit: Not like Turkey would have the balls to try anything like this anymore, personally I think it was a tad bit naive of the Russian air-force not to have ground attack planes covered by fighter aircraft on every mission. if everything fails, russia can ask north korea to deploy their secret technology to keep NATO in check... That's what i was gonna say, plus the time travelling devices that they didn't use yet out of kindness. But, poking/ridiculing russian trolls starts to get really boring now. Well I guess we shall all see in the coming days what will happen, Turkey has already shown its military might, only a superpower could shoot down an aircraft that doesn't have air-to-air missiles in the back. I don't know about you guys but I'm already starting to learn Turkish. Russia should just pack up and leave, no way anyone can stand up to Turkey. edit: Wow with the strawmen guys. Basic reading comprehension dictates that I never implied Moskva could take on the entire Turkish military. You do know there is more than one ship in a navy?
So now russia is deploying their entire fleet? I am sure NATO wouldn't have a response for that...
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imo - NATO will do nothing and Putin will kill all turkish backed militias in that zone and have Turkey watch it happen.
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On November 25 2015 05:46 xM(Z wrote:
imo - NATO will do nothing and Putin will kill all turkish backed militias in that zone and have Turkey watch it happen.
Of course NATO won't do anything (as long as russia isn't directly attacking turkey). It pretty much would be the start of WW3.
Now, i'm not sure that turkey is just watching their people die. Or even worse, if they do, what islamistic spin erdogan could put on that.
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On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt.
There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power.
Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx
53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis
43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis
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On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis
A poll with no specific information about the number of troops and how long the process would take. Of course people said sure. People are super pro fighting bad people when it doesn't' cost money and doesn't take a long time.
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On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis
One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much.
A poll with no specific information about the number of troops and how long the process would take. Of course people said sure. People are super pro fighting bad people when it doesn't' cost money and doesn't take a long time.
The problem is that those people are not so pro actually cleaning up their mess, instead of letting it get out of control, and making it worse for literally everyone involved.
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United States43915 Posts
On November 25 2015 05:52 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s.
And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much.
Do you even support our troops?
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On November 25 2015 05:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:52 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:
[quote]
So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful.
On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS".
If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much. Do you even support our troops?
That sounds like a meme that i don't know.
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On November 25 2015 05:54 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:53 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2015 05:52 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much. Do you even support our troops? That sounds like a meme that i don't know.
It was a phrase used during the Iraq War to say we supported the troops, but might not approve of the war. Always edging on the propaganda, but never quite getting there.
note: My brother was deployed in Iraq. Even he didn't like the phrase, or "Stupid facebook fake support" as he put it.
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United States43915 Posts
On November 25 2015 05:54 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:53 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2015 05:52 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist stateTogether they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much. Do you even support our troops? That sounds like a meme that i don't know.
Patriotic America supports their troops so much that they support anything military, including military intervention. I guess you just don't support troops enough. With your doubt that American soldiers can defeat ISIS without harming civilians or taking casualties without creating a new enemy I really wonder if you truly love America.
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On November 25 2015 05:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:54 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:53 KwarK wrote:On November 25 2015 05:52 m4ini wrote:On November 25 2015 05:49 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:35 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:21 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:15 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 05:13 Deathstar wrote:On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:
[quote]
And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state.
There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state.
And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state
Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant.
The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want.
People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol? These are the "rebels." Please point to the better option in the region to work with in Syria. I'll wait. We can either work with Syria and Russia to combat the jihadis and in return, Assad can stay in power. Or, we (US) can send in troops into both Syria and Iraq and end this The US, with our new understanding, can create new countries to better represent the ethnic groups. Kurdistan (northern Syria + northern Iraq), Sunni state in Iraq, Shia state in Iraq Both of those are not options since our EU allies do not support Assad. And we are not invading anything because the US people would revolt. There are currently talks between US, EU, Syria, Russia, Iran, (Turkey and SA?) on what the future of Syria will look like, and part of it will definitely involve Assad staying in power. Also, invasion is more likely than you think. Maybe not in 2015 or 16, but definitely 17 (Hillary?) http://www.gallup.com/poll/186590/oppose-sending-ground-troops-fight-militants.aspx53% oppose sending ground troops to fight jihadis 43% in favor sending ground troops to fight jihadis One would think that at some point, the US citizens would realize that they're just creating frankensteins over and over again. Or getting tired of war, maybe. But apparently not so much. Do you even support our troops? That sounds like a meme that i don't know. It was a phrase used during the Iraq War to say we supported the troops, but might not approve of the war. Always edging on the propaganda, but never quite getting there. note: My brother was deployed in Iraq. Even he didn't like the phrase, or "Stupid facebook fake support" as he put it.
Ah okay.
It actually is kinda dumb since i'm not a US citizen - i support the few US soldiers i met when i was serving, because they seemed to be good people. Shouldn't say more, i have a strong opinion on war mongering of the US, and i'm definately in the "no, no troops" camp. Even if it doesn't affect me directly anymore (as it did when i was serving).
And the dead soldiers trying to find the pilots, sounds like blackhawk down. The shot down helicopter, didn't i read that yesterday already? Or at least earlier this morning?
Patriotic America supports their troops so much that they support anything military, including military intervention. I guess you just don't support troops enough. With your doubt that American soldiers can defeat ISIS without harming civilians or taking casualties without creating a new enemy I really wonder if you truly love America.
Got it. Btw, since you moved out of the country i just moved into, and i had that argument a while back - do you consider yourself british or american?
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On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 04:00 zlefin wrote:On November 25 2015 03:57 xM(Z wrote:
can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?. that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit. it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace.
do you have a citation for this?
As far as I can tell, you have to shoot it when it's within your country; but if the plane then teeters for awhile and crashes elsewhere, it's still ok.
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On November 25 2015 05:10 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 05:01 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:57 Pr0wler wrote:On November 25 2015 04:17 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:14 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:04 Plansix wrote:On November 25 2015 04:02 xM(Z wrote:On November 25 2015 04:00 zlefin wrote:On November 25 2015 03:57 xM(Z wrote:
can you even grasp the idea that the plane went down in Syria not in Turkey?. that doesn't mean it wasn't shot while in Turkey. Planes go pretty fast, they can crash quite aways from where they're hit. it doesn't matter. you have to shoot it and the plane has to go down in your country to not be in violation of international laws. it's why nothing happens when war planes regularly cross other countries airspace. Because they have approval to fly over from those nations, which is worked out in advance. If the US says don't send a warplane over our airspace, no one is going to do it. Russia was told to stop and didn't. i'm not excusing the russians. they played in on the fact that turks could only half-ass the shooting of russian war planes, but saying Turkey was 100% right/justified in their action is stupid. Very few acts of violence are 100% justified or right. But this is what happens when nations are as cocky as Russia has been lately. At some point someone pushes back and lights your shit up. People have forgotten that this is how a lot of nations used to enforce their boarders. We used to be way more trigger happy back in the 60-70-80s. And Cannon's has it right that there is a proxy war going on. Turkey doesn't support Assad and assisting the rebels fighting him. And Russia isn't fighting ISIS like it claims and everyone knows it. So Turkey is supporting the so called "rebels", that are basically satelites of ISIS. And this somehow is helpful. On the other hand Russia is bombing the same "rebels", again the satelites of ISIS, and that is "not fighting ISIS". If Turkey really wanted to fight ISIS, ISIS wouldn't exist right now. Just saying. There are a number of rebels that are not part of ISIS. And? There is the Islamic front which wants an Islamic salafist state. There is al-Nusra, which wants to create an Islamic salafist state. And there is ISIS which wants to create an Islamic salafist state Together they make up around 95% of all forces opposed to the Syrian government. The secular opposition is a minority within a minority and they basically live (and work) in Turkey where they post fanfiction on facebook about how they are relevant. The only reason they aren't all one thing is because of internal power struggles but they all want the same thing, a salafist Islamic state where they can be as crazy as they want. People actually believe Turkey could take out a Russian missile cruiser? lol?
That close to Turkey and that far away from Russia? Of course they could. But would they dare to do it? I doubt it. Turkey is lucky they dont have land border with Russia. That would be whole another game.
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First let's be clear there's nothing regular about penetrating sovereign airspace. Despite its provocations off the coast of Alaska, off the coast of the UK and even off the coast of Sweden, a non-NATO ally, Russia has always contained itself to international airspace.
Second, let's understand this particular conflict is incredibly complex, Turkey is at an extremely heightened sense of security (think US airspace post-9/11), and has grown increasingly distant toward Russia in the wake of recent developments in Syria.
None of the above excuses what is most likely an overreaction, resulting in what appears to be the deaths of two Russian pilots, but it does paint a more accurate picture and underscore the need for meticulous rules of engagement/interstate cooperation the likes of which the United States and Russia have sought to achieve, but which Russia and Turkey had not clearly delineated.
It's also still quite early and there is much yet to be seen.
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EPT
