On November 25 2015 07:37 dfs wrote: To be fair, you can't just go "oh fuck it, we've had enough, shut it down with no warning, their own fault". I understand how politics related discussions work, but this "It's their own fault" stuff gets weirder and weirder with every event.
Several weeks ago, Turkey told Russia that further incursions in their airspace would be met with force According to reports this pilot may have been warned as many as 21 times.
There was nothing even remotely close to "no warning" involved here.
According to our MOD reports, he wasn't warned once. Obviously our MOD won't just go "yeah, they've warned him, he ignored it and flipped them off". Obviously their reports won't just go "yeah, we've destroyed a military jet of a country we're not at war with without a proper warning, because fuck you". Either way, why would he ignore 21 warnings while leaving the airspace anyway? "Met with force" doesn't mean "destroyed on sight" either.
I eagerly await the reveal of the black box flightpath. I expect we will never see it tho for obvious reasons.
black box? In case you didn't notice: This was a military jet, not a civilian airliner.
My knowledge of military aircraft is not the greatest I will admit. I assume it records flight data somewhere that will allow an independent verification. Otherwise nothing will come of this anyway as it is Russia vs NATO in a he says/she says
There is enough information about the plane's flight path and potential targets in the area.
Oh, please tell us those info! There is a Turkish radar plot that nobody can verify and a cute Russian version, that looks like their trainee created it in paint. Then of course we have the Americans who nod to everything Turkey says in the matter and Syria doing the same regarding everything Russia says. But you seem to know the truth! Enlighten us!
@Gorsamath Military jets on combat missions usually prefer to not give unnecessary intel in case they are downed (most likely in hostile territory)... So they do not carry black boxes or anything similar for flighttracking.
The point I'm trying to make is that even if you take the version presented by Turkey to NATO as 100% truth, by no means attacking that plane was justified. Everyone knows the plane had absolutely no interest in anything related to Turkey as a sovereign state and, as I quoted in my post above, the previous Turkish president literally said that stuff like this happens all the time with no ill intent and shouldn't be seen as an act of aggression.
Yes, the area Russian forces operate in is uncomfortably close to Turkey, but it's not like Russians are going to suddenly start bombing Turkish military forces or something (nevermind that there were no Turkish military forces to be bombed in the area). The only reason Turks are angry is because Russia is fighting against the folks Turkey supports -- but guess what, Assad is still considered the president of whatever is left of Syria, and Russia is perfectly justified in bombing those guys.
Russia should not be surprised this has happened. It's not like the event is unprecedented. If you doubt al jazeera as a reliable source you can look up each individual event they name and find several versions of those tales as well.
On November 25 2015 15:16 Salazarz wrote: Btw, here's another funny quote, this one from Erdogan himself, regarding the Turkish plane blown up by Syrians in 2012.
On November 25 2015 15:16 Salazarz wrote: Btw, here's another funny quote, this one from Erdogan himself, regarding the Turkish plane blown up by Syrians in 2012.
"Even if the plane was in their airspace for a few seconds, that is no excuse to attack."
"It was clear that this plane was not an aggressive plane. Still it was shot down."
But hey, gotta protect those sovereign interests!
If Syria was right in 2012 => Turkey is right at this time.
Except in 2012, NATO condemned the shoot down, calling it an attack and a violation of international laws. But I guess the laws don't apply to NATO since they're the ones who write them, huh. Nevermind that the plane shot down by Syrians was actually a Turkish recon plane which really had no business being where it was.
Russia should not be surprised this has happened. It's not like the event is unprecedented. If you doubt al jazeera as a reliable source you can look up each individual event they name and find several versions of those tales as well.
Just quoted to emphasize the Al Jazeera link.
That paints an entirely different picture, which shows provocations ranging from simple border crossings to actually lock weapons on planes that are there to escort you out of their airspace.
Ever seen videos where a bully picks on a nerd on youtube, when eventually the nerd onefingerdeathpunches the bully to sleep? That's pretty much what happened.
As a sidenote, even german Bundeswehr pilots say "if you don't move after 10 warnings, what are they supposed to do?". They didn't even answer, and it was sent on an "universal emergency frequency" which an SU24 is able to listen to. Now, i'm not saying it was smart to shoot down that plane. It wasn't. It was also not smart to then immediately council with the NATO instead of russia - but that one entirely goes to russia.
You can NOT simply ignore regulations, air spaces and what nots just because you feel like it. Continuously at that. It's bound to happen. And, FYI, a ukrainian fighterjet crossing russias airspace, ignoring warnings for 5 minutes.. I'll let you decide what happens with that one.
Look up the comments I'm quoting. An obvious Turkish recon plane shot down after flying through Syria with no possible reason other than scoping out the area, NATO condemns the 'attack' and claims Syria is completely out of line to do so.
Couple years down the line, Russian plane on a known military sortie barely touching Turkish airspace located next to its area of operations in Syria shot down, NATO insists there is nothing wrong with that.
I mean, if we are claiming stuff like that is wrong, okay then, let it be wrong on all accounts; and if it's okay to do, then why did NATO bitch about Syria doing a much more justified thing in a similar-ish situation?
On November 25 2015 21:22 Salazarz wrote: Look up the comments I'm quoting. An obvious Turkish recon plane shot down after flying through Syria with no possible reason other than scoping out the area, NATO condemns the 'attack' and claims Syria is completely out of line to do so.
Couple years down the line, Russian plane on a known military sortie barely touching Turkish airspace located next to its area of operations in Syria shot down, NATO insists there is nothing wrong with that.
I mean, if we are claiming stuff like that is wrong, okay then, let it be wrong on all accounts; and if it's okay to do, then why did NATO bitch about Syria doing a much more justified thing in a similar-ish situation?
The Turkish jet was shot down without warning. I would totally agree to your point, if back then the Turkish would have also went "Hohoho, we don't care about your warnings, you won't dare to shoot us down" like the Russians did this time. But that wasn't the case. Also I assume the support for the Turkish would be much lower(it is not exactly high anyway), if they would have downed the Russian jet without any further warning.
Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
On November 25 2015 21:22 Salazarz wrote: Look up the comments I'm quoting. An obvious Turkish recon plane shot down after flying through Syria with no possible reason other than scoping out the area, NATO condemns the 'attack' and claims Syria is completely out of line to do so.
Couple years down the line, Russian plane on a known military sortie barely touching Turkish airspace located next to its area of operations in Syria shot down, NATO insists there is nothing wrong with that.
I mean, if we are claiming stuff like that is wrong, okay then, let it be wrong on all accounts; and if it's okay to do, then why did NATO bitch about Syria doing a much more justified thing in a similar-ish situation?
Did the Syrian government warn Turkey that further incursions would be punished weeks/days prior to the incident? Did Syria warn the plane before opening fire?
Wikipedia on the incident gives me
During its violation and shortly after, the aircraft received no warning or admonishment at all from Syrian military authorities.
which changes the situation significantly.
Edit: For the record, no I don't think Turkey should violate airspace either, but do consider there to be a marked difference between warnings and no warnings.
On November 25 2015 21:27 zeo wrote: Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
And you think this survivor will say anything other then what the Russian government tells him to say?
If you consider NATO's statement confirming the violation as a lie then why should we believe a Russian pilot speaking the prepared lines of the Russian government?
On November 25 2015 21:27 zeo wrote: Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
And you think this survivor will say anything other then what the Russian government tells him to say?
If you consider NATO's statement confirming the violation as a lie then why should we believe a Russian pilot speaking the prepared lines of the Russian government?
He can take a polygraph test. I'm sure there are many ways to objectively verify wether a Turkish F-15 entered Syrian airspace and fired a missile without warning.
On November 25 2015 21:27 zeo wrote: Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
And you think this survivor will say anything other then what the Russian government tells him to say?
If you consider NATO's statement confirming the violation as a lie then why should we believe a Russian pilot speaking the prepared lines of the Russian government?
He can take a polygraph test. I'm sure there are many ways to objectively verify wether a Turkish F-15 entered Syrian airspace and fired a missile without warning.
Right, I forgot lie detectors were known for their reliability. How about some truth serum?
On November 25 2015 21:22 Salazarz wrote: Look up the comments I'm quoting. An obvious Turkish recon plane shot down after flying through Syria with no possible reason other than scoping out the area, NATO condemns the 'attack' and claims Syria is completely out of line to do so.
Couple years down the line, Russian plane on a known military sortie barely touching Turkish airspace located next to its area of operations in Syria shot down, NATO insists there is nothing wrong with that.
I mean, if we are claiming stuff like that is wrong, okay then, let it be wrong on all accounts; and if it's okay to do, then why did NATO bitch about Syria doing a much more justified thing in a similar-ish situation?
Did the Syrian government warn Turkey that further incursions would be punished weeks/days prior to the incident? Did Syria warn the plane before opening fire?
During its violation and shortly after, the aircraft received no warning or admonishment at all from Syrian military authorities.
which changes the situation significantly.
Considering how tense relations between Turkey and Syria are / were, I think it's fair to assume that Turkish pilots knew they are not supposed to carry out air recon missions in Syria. Whether a warning was given during that incident (or the current one) is all he said she said anyway and of course Turkish side would claim there were no warnings and they did not at all expect Syrians to be upset about them doing aerial photography on their side of the border.
Interesting segment with Gen. Tom McInerney, yeah its Fox news. But when you see a Fox News contributor rationally analyse an incident with Russia its generally worth a see.
i read yesterday about greeks vs turks air space violations and it's not that simple there. Greece has its own claimed air space zone. that air space is not recognized by any international body/alliance/country/and so on. Turkey does not recognize it either so they pass through it.
Interesting segment with Gen. Tom McInerney, yeah its Fox news. But when you see a Fox News contributor rationally analyse an incident with Russia its generally worth a see.
The general sounds really smart, but i think she didnt like what he was saying.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fdzlTXy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Fy0DlUw.png)
