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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On November 26 2015 00:42 Salazarz wrote:
@ lastpuritan, The Turkmens in Syria that you speak of are militants shouting 'Allah Akbar' after killing a military prisoner which is a pretty bad thing in itself. The said Turkmens are also AT BEST operating in the same way Crimean / Donbass 'freedom fighters' whom Russia was involved with were, and whom NATO insisted have no legitimacy etc etc, leading to a number of sanctions against Russia.
Now if you accept that whatever went down in Ukraine was 'bad' and Russia was sanctioned deservedly, Turkey has to at least pretend they don't care about the Turkmen militants and act accordingly; using them as an excuse to mess with Russian operations is completely against the sanctions put in place against Russia over the Ukrainean disputes. There's really nothing making the Turkmen separatists 'better' or more 'legitimate' than the Crimean ones.
It's like the thing with Turkish plane shot down I brought up earlier; you either condemn both that one and this one, or you accept that nations 'have the right to protect their borders' in both cases -- you can't change your mind whenever it fits your story better without looking like, well, a politician, I guess. Ahem.
That Allah Ackbar thingy is the most common single victory shout for muslim soldiers for centuries. Though i don't know the exact meaning, i think it's something related to their god being the best among all? We were hearing it during the early clashes between FSA and Regime before ISIS made it popular, both sides were shouting it same time.
As i said, killing is killing. Turkish army murdered these pilots. Syria murdered turkish pilots too. From my point of view these jets bullying each other with fatal consequences show us the true nature of humankind that almost entirely okay to kill people just because there some laws about it.
Few more interesting tweets:
(Turk's denial of any Armenian genocide not a crime: European Court http://reut.rs/1ZFJC6w)
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(dont know why it double post)
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About the list with the planes downed by Russia i dont know any details for the most but i know for one. There is no evidence on the Malaysian airplane crash that Russian forces are involved, only hysterical accusations from USA and EU. They were somehow 100% sure about Russia's fault, but strangely after a while EU and USA concealed the investigation with only Russia appealing to continue it, and that didnt happened.
That can lead to one thought, EU and USA found out something that they didnt want to admit, probably that the plane was downed by Ukrainian forces and most important to take off the blame from Russia, they didnt want that. So now as we see that plane crash was ascribed to Russia's account with no evidence.
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The Malaysian plan was downed by "Ukrainian rebels" that are supported by Russia? They were tweeting things claiming they had shot down a Ukrainian government plane before they realized it was a passenger plane. Its was super obvious they were the ones that fire the missile that day.
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On November 26 2015 01:38 Plansix wrote:
The Malaysian plan was downed by "Ukrainian rebels" that are supported by Russia? They were tweeting things claiming they had shot down a Ukrainian government plane before they realized it was a passenger plane. Its was super obvious they were the ones that fire the missile that day.
None of the planes / helicopters shot down in Ukraine were shot down by RUSSIA. That would be the same as Russia claiming the bombs in France were planted by Turkish operatives because some of the rebel groups in Syria are supported by Turkey (which would be a pretty dumb thing to say). Nevermind that the investigation was never finished, but let's not open that can of worms again.
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On November 26 2015 01:43 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 01:38 Plansix wrote:
The Malaysian plan was downed by "Ukrainian rebels" that are supported by Russia? They were tweeting things claiming they had shot down a Ukrainian government plane before they realized it was a passenger plane. Its was super obvious they were the ones that fire the missile that day. None of the planes / helicopters shot down in Ukraine were shot down by RUSSIA. That would be the same as Russia claiming the bombs in France were planted by Turkish operatives because some of the rebel groups in Syria are supported by Turkey (which would be a pretty dumb thing to say). Nevermind that the investigation was never finished, but let's not open that can of worms again.
I understand that. I was refuting the claim that the Ukrainian government shot it down and the US covered it up or lied.
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The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey.
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On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey.
I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative.
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On November 26 2015 01:32 _Animus_ wrote:
About the list with the planes downed by Russia i dont know any details for the most but i know for one. There is no evidence on the Malaysian airplane crash that Russian forces are involved, only hysterical accusations from USA and EU. They were somehow 100% sure about Russia's fault, but strangely after a while EU and USA concealed the investigation with only Russia appealing to continue it, and that didnt happened.
That can lead to one thought, EU and USA found out something that they didnt want to admit, probably that the plane was downed by Ukrainian forces and most important to take off the blame from Russia, they didnt want that. So now as we see that plane crash was ascribed to Russia's account with no evidence.
The investigation about who is guilty is still ongoing. Another investigation has already finished and it said that it was shot down by a Russian Buk missile. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense mate.
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On November 26 2015 01:32 _Animus_ wrote:
About the list with the planes downed by Russia i dont know any details for the most but i know for one. There is no evidence on the Malaysian airplane crash that Russian forces are involved, only hysterical accusations from USA and EU. They were somehow 100% sure about Russia's fault, but strangely after a while EU and USA concealed the investigation with only Russia appealing to continue it, and that didnt happened.
That can lead to one thought, EU and USA found out something that they didnt want to admit, probably that the plane was downed by Ukrainian forces and most important to take off the blame from Russia, they didnt want that. So now as we see that plane crash was ascribed to Russia's account with no evidence.
You are talking nonsense, facts are different. Edit: Guy above said it better.
Do not confuse this with me supporting Turkey on the issue, this time they are the party most responsible and agressive.
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On November 26 2015 02:04 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 01:32 _Animus_ wrote:
About the list with the planes downed by Russia i dont know any details for the most but i know for one. There is no evidence on the Malaysian airplane crash that Russian forces are involved, only hysterical accusations from USA and EU. They were somehow 100% sure about Russia's fault, but strangely after a while EU and USA concealed the investigation with only Russia appealing to continue it, and that didnt happened.
That can lead to one thought, EU and USA found out something that they didnt want to admit, probably that the plane was downed by Ukrainian forces and most important to take off the blame from Russia, they didnt want that. So now as we see that plane crash was ascribed to Russia's account with no evidence. The investigation about who is guilty is still ongoing. Another investigation has already finished and it said that it was shot down by a Russian Buk missile. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense mate.
In truth, there was little doubt that the missile came from Soviet-era weapons owned by Ukraine that both sides would have access to. The fact that both sides have the same weapons tech makes that tidbit less relevant for determining guilt.
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Zurich15366 Posts
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On November 25 2015 21:37 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 21:30 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 21:27 zeo wrote:
Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
And you think this survivor will say anything other then what the Russian government tells him to say? If you consider NATO's statement confirming the violation as a lie then why should we believe a Russian pilot speaking the prepared lines of the Russian government? He can take a polygraph test. I'm sure there are many ways to objectively verify wether a Turkish F-15 entered Syrian airspace and fired a missile without warning.
polygraph tests are well documented to be unreliable, nigh-worthless, and easy to beat.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On November 26 2015 03:50 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 21:37 zeo wrote:On November 25 2015 21:30 Gorsameth wrote:On November 25 2015 21:27 zeo wrote:
Unofficial news that the Syrian army has rescued one of the SU-24 pilots, apparently he is safe now in Latakia after a 6 hour rescue operation. Still no official confirmation. A representative of the Turkmans says they shot at the pilots as they were parachuting down and that they have one body which they hope to exchange for several prisoners.
This is great news as now we have a survivor with valuable testimony regarding what actually happened yesterday. Also Russia is deploying S-400 SAM systems to Syria's Hmeimim airbase.
And you think this survivor will say anything other then what the Russian government tells him to say? If you consider NATO's statement confirming the violation as a lie then why should we believe a Russian pilot speaking the prepared lines of the Russian government? He can take a polygraph test. I'm sure there are many ways to objectively verify wether a Turkish F-15 entered Syrian airspace and fired a missile without warning. polygraph tests are well documented to be unreliable, nigh-worthless, and easy to beat.
Also not relevant here because why would a public polygraph of the pilot ever happen. Reality doesn't work like this.
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On November 26 2015 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey. I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative.
Shooting down a plane that clearly isn't attacking is provocative, for example. Look at the Fox video on the last page.
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On November 26 2015 03:54 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey. I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative. Shooting down a plane that clearly isn't attacking is provocative, for example. Look at the Fox video on the last page.
Is running bombing simulations against every single one of your neighbors provocative? Is repeatedly violating a sovereign nations airspace provocative? Is ignoring the warnings of said sovereign nations whenever you violate their airspace provocative?
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On November 26 2015 04:31 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 03:54 LegalLord wrote:On November 26 2015 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey. I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative. Shooting down a plane that clearly isn't attacking is provocative, for example. Look at the Fox video on the last page. Is running bombing simulations against every single one of your neighbors provocative? Is repeatedly violating a sovereign nations airspace provocative? Is ignoring the warnings of said sovereign nations whenever you violate their airspace provocative?
No, running bombing simulations isn't provocative. Every nation does that, even to their allies.
Minor airspace violations aren't provocative either. That happens very frequently with everyone every year, in peacetime or not. You wouldn't hear about it if hating Russia weren't the "cool" thing to do right now.
Watch that Fox video for the "repeated warnings" assuming that the Turkish story is how it happened.
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On November 26 2015 04:48 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 04:31 Ghostcom wrote:On November 26 2015 03:54 LegalLord wrote:On November 26 2015 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey. I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative. Shooting down a plane that clearly isn't attacking is provocative, for example. Look at the Fox video on the last page. Is running bombing simulations against every single one of your neighbors provocative? Is repeatedly violating a sovereign nations airspace provocative? Is ignoring the warnings of said sovereign nations whenever you violate their airspace provocative? No, running bombing simulations isn't provocative. Every nation does that, even to their allies. Minor airspace violations aren't provocative either. That happens very frequently with everyone every year, in peacetime or not. You wouldn't hear about it if hating Russia weren't the "cool" thing to do right now. Watch that Fox video for the "repeated warnings" assuming that the Turkish story is how it happened.
Hating Russia isn't "the cool thing to do", Russia is making everyone hate Russia by acting like clowns. Every nation does not run unannounced (my mistake for missing this clause in my first post) bombing simulations no. In fact, how many times do you think Denmark has had to scramble fighters to intercept Sweden? Norway? Germany? Russia?
Do you want to take a guess at which country the surveillance aircraft which nearly collided (less than 90 meters) with a passenger plane from SAS was from? These types of occurences were normal during the Cold War. Anyone but Russia seems to have accepted that the Cold War ended in 1989/1991.
I have already watched the FOX video, however this entire incident is irrelevant to my point. Turkey has already previously repeatedly warned Russia that they needed to stop violating their airspace (just look at the letter there was linked).
Apparently it is too complicated for Russia to ask for permission to enter another nations airspace - however, somehow every other nation on Earth is capable of doing it. Weird.
That being said, it was a less than smart move of Turkey.
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On November 26 2015 05:07 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 04:48 LegalLord wrote:On November 26 2015 04:31 Ghostcom wrote:On November 26 2015 03:54 LegalLord wrote:On November 26 2015 01:54 Gorsameth wrote:On November 26 2015 01:53 LegalLord wrote:
The correct yet boring solution to that problem would be to let the investigation finish. Guilt isn't decided by political expedience, and what I've seen from both sides seems to paint a rather inconclusive picture overall.
In this case, however, the evidence matters less because both the Russian and Turkish stories suggest provocative actions on the part of Turkey. I would love to hear what actions you consider provocative. Shooting down a plane that clearly isn't attacking is provocative, for example. Look at the Fox video on the last page. Is running bombing simulations against every single one of your neighbors provocative? Is repeatedly violating a sovereign nations airspace provocative? Is ignoring the warnings of said sovereign nations whenever you violate their airspace provocative? No, running bombing simulations isn't provocative. Every nation does that, even to their allies. Minor airspace violations aren't provocative either. That happens very frequently with everyone every year, in peacetime or not. You wouldn't hear about it if hating Russia weren't the "cool" thing to do right now. Watch that Fox video for the "repeated warnings" assuming that the Turkish story is how it happened. Hating Russia isn't "the cool thing to do", Russia is making everyone hate Russia by acting like clowns. Every nation does not run unannounced (my mistake for missing this clause in my first post) bombing simulations no. In fact, how many times do you think Denmark has had to scramble fighters to intercept Sweden? Norway? Germany? Russia? Do you want to take a guess at which country the surveillance aircraft which nearly collided (less than 90 meters) with a passenger plane from SAS was from? These types of occurences were normal during the Cold War. Anyone but Russia seems to have accepted that the Cold War ended in 1989/1991. I have already watched the FOX video, however this entire incident is irrelevant to my point. Turkey has already previously repeatedly warned Russia that they needed to stop violating their airspace (just look at the letter there was linked). Apparently it is too complicated for Russia to ask for permission to enter another nations airspace - however, somehow every other nation on Earth is capable of doing it. Weird. That being said, it was a less than smart move of Turkey.
edit: feels like we're getting rather off topic with this so I'm not going to comment more in this direction 
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Canada11582 Posts
Is the main question whether the Russian jets in Turkish space at all? I see people saying even if they were, Turkey wouldn't be justified, but in that case, at what point are you justified in defending your country's sovereignty? I don't think joint maneuvers between allies is comparable to Russia flying over Turkey, any more than I think Russia would view American jets probing Russian airspace without permission. But what is the dividing line between border probing and waltzing into other countries' airspace without permission, thus ceding sovereignty?
Airspace may seem a little hazier than other examples, but countries get pretty grumpy when ships and troops are probing across borders. At some point, is the same not true of the air force?
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EPT
