On November 26 2015 06:22 Falling wrote: Is the main question whether the Russian jets in Turkish space at all? I see people saying even if they were, Turkey wouldn't be justified, but in that case, at what point are you justified in defending your country's sovereignty? I don't think joint maneuvers between allies is comparable to Russia flying over Turkey, any more than I think Russia would view American jets probing Russian airspace without permission. But what is the dividing line between border probing and waltzing into other countries' airspace without permission, thus ceding sovereignty?
Sadly I think we will never get a real answer to that. Unless a neutral recognized 3e party provides evidence it will be a he says/she says between NATO and Russia.
idk why some of you are having difficulty appreciating the scale of appropriate or proportionate responses to a transgression like border flyover.
it was clearly a provocative gesture by turkey. nato has to back it in face but must also warn turkey in order to keep integrity of alliance from being abused. also nato has to prevent russian attempt to seize the occasion to do something more crazy, hence the facial support of turkey to deny any cause of action on russia's part.
russia understands all this and markets it for more putin brownie points. it's fairly minor but reveals tensions, also danger of proxy warfare yet again.
I think the main question is what the political repercussions will be. The situation is minor enough on a global scale that only Turkey and Russia are willing to do anything about it, regardless of what happened.
On November 26 2015 06:30 oneofthem wrote: idk why some of you are having difficulty appreciating the scale of appropriate or proportionate responses to a transgression like border flyover.
it was clearly a provocative gesture by turkey. nato has to back it in face but must also warn turkey in order to keep integrity of alliance from being abused. also nato has to prevent russian attempt to seize the occasion to do something more crazy, hence the facial support of turkey to deny any cause of action on russia's part.
russia understands all this and markets it for more putin brownie points. it's fairly minor but reveals tensions, also danger of proxy warfare yet again.
When you repeatedly violate someones borders, they ask you to stop and you dont. they then tell you that next time they will shoot and you again violate their border then shooting is entirely an appropriate response.
You say NATO behind closed door is mad at Turkey for this. I would expect a fair few northern European counties who have had Russian military aircraft violate their airspace and otherwise provoke them (by approaching without transponders and refusing hails, by running mock bombing runs) to look at Turkey's action and be happy that maybe Russia will think twice now before continuing such reckless and needless provocation.
On November 26 2015 06:22 Falling wrote: Is the main question whether the Russian jets in Turkish space at all? I see people saying even if they were, Turkey wouldn't be justified, but in that case, at what point are you justified in defending your country's sovereignty? I don't think joint maneuvers between allies is comparable to Russia flying over Turkey, any more than I think Russia would view American jets probing Russian airspace without permission. But what is the dividing line between border probing and waltzing into other countries' airspace without permission, thus ceding sovereignty?
Sadly I think we will never get a real answer to that. Unless a neutral recognized 3e party provides evidence it will be a he says/she says between NATO and Russia.
are there even any neutral parties in the area? (say within 300-600 miles) While I know there's neutral (or fairly neutral) countries elsewhere in the world, I can't think of anyone nearby that area that isn't aligned.
A civilian airline caught the warning messages that Russia denies were ever sent. As close to a neutral verification of the Turkish story as we may get.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
Or maybe the russians wanted their plane to be taken down. Now they have the excuse to shoot at everything that flies over Syria. ESPECIALLY turkish aircrafts. And while we were talking, the russians turned the turkmen area(where their pilot was killed) into ash.
Turkey has summoned Russia's ambassador in protest over the "intensive" bombing of Turkmen villages in northern Syria by Russian warplanes, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu told reporters on Friday.
In the meeting with the ambassador, Andrei Karlov, Turkey called for an immediate end to the Russian military operation, which is near the Turkish border, the foreign ministry said in a statement.
"It was stressed that the Russian side's actions were not a fight against terror, but they bombed civilian Turkmen villages and this could lead to serious consequences," the foreign ministry said.
Ankara has traditionally expressed solidarity with the Syrian Turkmen, who are Syrians of Turkish descent.
President Tayyip Erdogan has voiced his concern about Russia's increasing involvement in the Syrian conflict and expressed anger at Russian incursions into Turkish air space in October.
Russia's air strikes in support of President Bashar al-Assad's forces have shifted the balance of power in the conflict and dealt a setback to Turkey's aim of seeing Assad removed from power.
Looks like the leader of the 'Turkmen' rebels that were shooting at the parachuting pilots is actually Turkish and likely a member of radical ultra-right movement Bozkurtlar. Bunch of pictures found by NTV that look legit, not that it's very surprising or anything.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
it's like you are purposefully ignoring key facts. mind control is not needed because this shit happens a lot. it is available opportunity.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
it's like you are purposefully ignoring key facts. mind control is not needed because this shit happens a lot. it is available opportunity.
here we go again. The Turkish government warned the Russians it would defend its airspace after Russia repeatedly violated that airspace. the Pilot was warned multiple times The pilot entered airspace regardless
How about you stop ignoring those facts yourself. I don't care how often you normally do something. When a military aircraft tells you to turn around or be fired upon you turn the fuck around.
dude, if people ignore you, will you go away?; it's not like you're adding something new to the table. everyone understands what you're saying but nobody gives a crap because that's not how the world works. basically, even if you're right, it doesn't matter.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
it's like you are purposefully ignoring key facts. mind control is not needed because this shit happens a lot. it is available opportunity.
here we go again. The Turkish government warned the Russians it would defend its airspace after Russia repeatedly violated that airspace. the Pilot was warned multiple times The pilot entered airspace regardless
How about you stop ignoring those facts yourself. I don't care how often you normally do something. When a military aircraft tells you to turn around or be fired upon you turn the fuck around.
Look, the important thing isn't whether Russia had violated some Turkish protocol or not or whatever; the 'warnings' and the 'previous offenses' don't really matter because on paper, Turkey and Russia are supposed to be somewhat friendly towards each other. Among other things that Russia does in Syria, they are fighting ISIS who is their shared enemy. Had the plane belonged to USA or whatever, this would have never happened.
The problem is Turkey has a vested interest in undermining Russian operations in the area, as well as Russia / NATO relations, and that's what the whole incident is about. It really, really does not matter at all whether it was 'technically' justified or not. The true reasons behind it have nothing to do with airspace violations.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
it's like you are purposefully ignoring key facts. mind control is not needed because this shit happens a lot. it is available opportunity.
here we go again. The Turkish government warned the Russians it would defend its airspace after Russia repeatedly violated that airspace. the Pilot was warned multiple times The pilot entered airspace regardless
How about you stop ignoring those facts yourself. I don't care how often you normally do something. When a military aircraft tells you to turn around or be fired upon you turn the fuck around.
Look, the important thing isn't whether Russia had violated some Turkish protocol or not or whatever; the 'warnings' and the 'previous offenses' don't really matter because on paper, Turkey and Russia are supposed to be somewhat friendly towards each other. Among other things that Russia does in Syria, they are fighting ISIS who is their shared enemy. Had the plane belonged to USA or whatever, this would have never happened.
The problem is Turkey has a vested interest in undermining Russian operations in the area, as well as Russia / NATO relations, and that's what the whole incident is about. It really, really does not matter at all whether it was 'technically' justified or not. The true reasons behind it have nothing to do with airspace violations.
Which is why countries often negotiate use of airspace when they are doing military operations.
Now of course Turkey wont grant those rights to Russia because neither Turkey nor Russia is fighting ISIS all that hard and are rather defending their own interests instead. But that means that Russia has to respect Turkeys airspace (especially after the previous statements by the Turkish government) Russia doesn't have to cross Turkish airspace to do their bombing missions, they purposefully do it to antagonize and provoke, the same reason they do it to northern Europe.
Turkey can have all the interest it wants in undermining Russia and Russian/NATO relations. Its still incredibly stupid of Russia to give them the cause they needed to act.
On November 26 2015 06:22 Falling wrote: Is the main question whether the Russian jets in Turkish space at all? I see people saying even if they were, Turkey wouldn't be justified, but in that case, at what point are you justified in defending your country's sovereignty? I don't think joint maneuvers between allies is comparable to Russia flying over Turkey, any more than I think Russia would view American jets probing Russian airspace without permission. But what is the dividing line between border probing and waltzing into other countries' airspace without permission, thus ceding sovereignty?
Airspace may seem a little hazier than other examples, but countries get pretty grumpy when ships and troops are probing across borders. At some point, is the same not true of the air force?
This is an old game Turkey and Russia have played for decades. Turkey also does this with Greece and Israel. They all badger each other (except Greece - usually they're the ones being dared to react). No one ever shoots because that would be insane.
On November 26 2015 06:30 oneofthem wrote: russia understands all this and markets it for more putin brownie points. it's fairly minor but reveals tensions, also danger of proxy warfare yet again.
The problem is Putin is losing brownie points, especially as Erdogan twists the knife further (by saying dumb shit like "I gave the order myself.") He's being called weak. It's only a matter of time before he truly responds.
Russia isn't and never was a sleeping bear. It's a baby cub and it has no chance to retaliate without something severe. But it's also much more in the right regarding Syria and ISIS than Turkey is. Even if Turkey gets away with this, its current indirect support of ISIS cannot continue to be ignored.
On November 26 2015 06:44 oneofthem wrote: turkey's not mad about flyovers, please. they are more concerned about bombs dropped on their rebels.
putin will just escort his bombers and fly away from turkey borders, or fly over them with the escorts and give some data on f-16 vs su-30.
I want a copy of the Mind Control technology that Turkey used to get a Russian pilot to violate their airspace despite repeated warnings he would be shot down.
All Russia had to do was not violate Turkey's airspace while bombing Turkey's rebels and it would have been fine.
it's like you are purposefully ignoring key facts. mind control is not needed because this shit happens a lot. it is available opportunity.
here we go again. The Turkish government warned the Russians it would defend its airspace after Russia repeatedly violated that airspace. the Pilot was warned multiple times The pilot entered airspace regardless
How about you stop ignoring those facts yourself. I don't care how often you normally do something. When a military aircraft tells you to turn around or be fired upon you turn the fuck around.
Look, the important thing isn't whether Russia had violated some Turkish protocol or not or whatever; the 'warnings' and the 'previous offenses' don't really matter because on paper, Turkey and Russia are supposed to be somewhat friendly towards each other. Among other things that Russia does in Syria, they are fighting ISIS who is their shared enemy. Had the plane belonged to USA or whatever, this would have never happened.
The problem is Turkey has a vested interest in undermining Russian operations in the area, as well as Russia / NATO relations, and that's what the whole incident is about. It really, really does not matter at all whether it was 'technically' justified or not. The true reasons behind it have nothing to do with airspace violations.
Which is why countries often negotiate use of airspace when they are doing military operations.
Now of course Turkey wont grant those rights to Russia because neither Turkey nor Russia is fighting ISIS all that hard and are rather defending their own interests instead. But that means that Russia has to respect Turkeys airspace (especially after the previous statements by the Turkish government) Russia doesn't have to cross Turkish airspace to do their bombing missions, they purposefully do it to antagonize and provoke, the same reason they do it to northern Europe.
Turkey can have all the interest it wants in undermining Russia and Russian/NATO relations. Its still incredibly stupid of Russia to give them the cause they needed to act.
Actually, it's incredibly stupid of Turkey because Assad isn't going anywhere while Kurds are more and more likely to get support from Russia and potentially other countries as well while Turkey pretty much ensured their opinion will be completely discounted during negotiations about future of the region. It's not like losing that plane is going to stop Russia from doing what they were going to do anyway?
Nevermind that both public opinion and opinion of their very precious NATO friends is very much against Turkey already on this, and it's also triggered a lot of digging into Turkey's potential involvement with ISIS etc which until now was more or less an uncomfortable thing nobody wants to bring up.
At the end of the day, this is going to hurt Turkey far more than it hurts Russia or Syria.
EPT
