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Iraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 280

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Please guys, stay on topic.

This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 01:01:34
February 22 2015 01:00 GMT
#5581
Breaking: Reports of Turkish Tanks + Troops moving towards the the tomb of Suleyman Shah in Syria.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 22 2015 03:08 GMT
#5582


The Syrian Arab Army’s Special Forces (Qawat Al-Khassa) unit “the Tiger Forces” led by Colonel Suheil Al-Hassan (the “Al-Nimr”) – along with Liwaa Suqour Al-Sahra (Falcons of the Desert Brigade) – are being reportedly redeployed to the northern Aleppo front after spending five months in eastern Homs combatting the Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham (ISIS).

The news of their apparent redeployment comes 4 days after the offensive launched by the National Defense Forces (NDF) offensive in northern Aleppo; this was confirmed by the Al-Mayadeen field reporter Rida Al-Basha.

For the Tiger Forces, their long awaited return to the northern Aleppo front comes nine months after they broke the siege of the Aleppo Prison and captured the village of Al-Jubeileh before being transferred to the northern Hama front, where they captured the strategic town of Morek on the Idlib border.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ImFromPortugal
Profile Joined April 2010
Portugal1368 Posts
February 22 2015 03:43 GMT
#5583
Editor's note: We're seeing numerous unconfirmed reports that Turkey may be moving military vehicles into Syria in an apparent attempt to guard the Tomb of Suleyman Shah, a sovereign Turkish exclave located in the Syrian state of Aleppo. - Jimmy
Yes im
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43677 Posts
February 22 2015 05:39 GMT
#5584
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
February 22 2015 05:41 GMT
#5585
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.
maru lover forever
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43677 Posts
February 22 2015 05:44 GMT
#5586
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 22 2015 05:56 GMT
#5587
On February 22 2015 14:44 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.

So you are not in favor of proactively dealing with a genocidal entity?

And let us not pretend that ISIS is just a small, extremist faction. Extrapolating from polls asking levels of support for ISIS among Muslims, it is very clear that more than a hundred million Muslims (and possibly a lot more) support ISIS globally. I am all ears when it comes to proposals for dealing with that problem. I just happen to think that any such solution is inevitably going to be bloody.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 10:48:20
February 22 2015 10:30 GMT
#5588
They say turkish troops have only 3 kms left to Suleiman Tomb, crossing PYD/YPG line safely, good news.

Edit: Nah they have already reached and moved the tomb to safety, i dont know how is that possible?

Edit 2: 1 Turkish soldier is dead, either by a mortar strike, or by accident during operation (turkish claim)

[image loading]

[image loading]
AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2116 Posts
February 22 2015 11:30 GMT
#5589
On February 22 2015 19:30 lastpuritan wrote:
They say turkish troops have only 3 kms left to Suleiman Tomb, crossing PYD/YPG line safely, good news.

Edit: Nah they have already reached and moved the tomb to safety, i dont know how is that possible?

Edit 2: 1 Turkish soldier is dead, either by a mortar strike, or by accident during operation (turkish claim)

[image loading]

[image loading]

I just find this picture laughable to be honest, Turkey had so many chances to help deal a significant blow to ISIS but they just don't care
John 15:13
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23713 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 11:45:18
February 22 2015 11:44 GMT
#5590
On February 22 2015 14:56 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.

So you are not in favor of proactively dealing with a genocidal entity?

And let us not pretend that ISIS is just a small, extremist faction. Extrapolating from polls asking levels of support for ISIS among Muslims, it is very clear that more than a hundred million Muslims (and possibly a lot more) support ISIS globally. I am all ears when it comes to proposals for dealing with that problem. I just happen to think that any such solution is inevitably going to be bloody.


Just do the same thing we have with China?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
February 22 2015 11:55 GMT
#5591
On February 22 2015 14:56 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.

So you are not in favor of proactively dealing with a genocidal entity?

And let us not pretend that ISIS is just a small, extremist faction. Extrapolating from polls asking levels of support for ISIS among Muslims, it is very clear that more than a hundred million Muslims (and possibly a lot more) support ISIS globally. I am all ears when it comes to proposals for dealing with that problem. I just happen to think that any such solution is inevitably going to be bloody.


Oh please, those numbers are totally not representative. It is a stupid thing to say you support ISIS, but to actually assume that support in a poll for a genocidal entitiy is the same as being an extremist commiting those attrocities is equaly dumb.

You seem to ignore everything we know about psychology and actual genocidal regimes: the perpetrators are a small extremist minority covered for by a larger support group, that dissociates/ignores/doesnt know the actual acts. Do you really not see that when allied soldiers forced german citizens to actually visit and look at the concentration camps that they did not scream heil hitler and gave their live to continue the cause? It was armchair extremism, incited by populism. As soon as they were forced to face what they actually supported they couldn't believe it.

Nothing in the world suggests that those 100m you love to parade around everywhere are anywhere close to being dangerous people. They are misslead, incited, armchair extremists. Voicing support for entities they have no intimate knowledge about, and no sense of perspective for the actual acts commited, be it through cognitive dissonance or plain ignorance. They would drop their support of isis the same way citizens of Weimar dropped their support for the third reich in Buchenwald.

You don't have to kill Mitläufer to stop the bandwagon. The act of trying to do that usually even converts them from passive supporters in word only, to actual supporters in action, as they now have an actual beef in the game, where they before where only loudmouths.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
February 22 2015 12:03 GMT
#5592
On February 22 2015 20:30 AssyrianKing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 19:30 lastpuritan wrote:
They say turkish troops have only 3 kms left to Suleiman Tomb, crossing PYD/YPG line safely, good news.

Edit: Nah they have already reached and moved the tomb to safety, i dont know how is that possible?

Edit 2: 1 Turkish soldier is dead, either by a mortar strike, or by accident during operation (turkish claim)

[image loading]

[image loading]

I just find this picture laughable to be honest, Turkey had so many chances to help deal a significant blow to ISIS but they just don't care


Exactly, and that blow will never appear.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10139 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 12:39:04
February 22 2015 12:32 GMT
#5593
Don't they know exactly what's going on since it's pretty much a literal and medieval interpretation of the Islam? It's as expected as it gets. I disagree with xDaunt, you can't bomb and invade your way through this, and long term it would be worse. Supporting YPG, Jordan and Syria's regime seems like a way better way to deal with ISIS and confine it to its own little piece of crap land until it dies.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
February 22 2015 14:12 GMT
#5594
On February 22 2015 21:32 Godwrath wrote:
Don't they know exactly what's going on since it's pretty much a literal and medieval interpretation of the Islam? It's as expected as it gets. I disagree with xDaunt, you can't bomb and invade your way through this, and long term it would be worse. Supporting YPG, Jordan and Syria's regime seems like a way better way to deal with ISIS and confine it to its own little piece of crap land until it dies.

You can't win this by force but you can win by supporting others who will use force against each other? Wat?

It's pretty clear diplomacy is not going to work.
dude bro.
iMOOrtal
Profile Joined March 2013
Canada144 Posts
February 22 2015 15:01 GMT
#5595
Turks pass by Kobane while on their way to the tomb.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/02/turkish-troops-pass-smouldering-kobane-save-shrine-150222134326067.html

It was only after a 700-year-old tomb came under threat that Erdogan was willing to muster almost 600 soldiers, 57 armoured vehicles, and 39 tanks to take action. The fact that the journey from the Turkish border to the location of the tomb passes through Kobane only adds to this twisted irony. One can only guess what the Turkish soldiers were thinking as their convoy made its way through the still smouldering rubble and devastation of Kobane.


If I was to hazard a guess, something like this would've been on blasting over their speakers+ Show Spoiler +

Glory to the construction workers and landscapers of Turkey.
Nine to Five? Or, Five to Nine?
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10139 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 15:52:53
February 22 2015 15:44 GMT
#5596
On February 22 2015 23:12 heliusx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 21:32 Godwrath wrote:
Don't they know exactly what's going on since it's pretty much a literal and medieval interpretation of the Islam? It's as expected as it gets. I disagree with xDaunt, you can't bomb and invade your way through this, and long term it would be worse. Supporting YPG, Jordan and Syria's regime seems like a way better way to deal with ISIS and confine it to its own little piece of crap land until it dies.

You can't win this by force but you can win by supporting others who will use force against each other? Wat?

It's pretty clear diplomacy is not going to work.

I never said you can't win by force, i said you can't stabilize the region through external forces invading and occupying the country, but domestic forces (YPG, Syria for example) being the ones to do the required clean up and contain and would be able to keep it that way longterm.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-22 17:56:42
February 22 2015 17:56 GMT
#5597
On February 23 2015 00:01 iMOOrtal wrote:
Turks pass by Kobane while on their way to the tomb.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/02/turkish-troops-pass-smouldering-kobane-save-shrine-150222134326067.html
Show nested quote +

It was only after a 700-year-old tomb came under threat that Erdogan was willing to muster almost 600 soldiers, 57 armoured vehicles, and 39 tanks to take action. The fact that the journey from the Turkish border to the location of the tomb passes through Kobane only adds to this twisted irony. One can only guess what the Turkish soldiers were thinking as their convoy made its way through the still smouldering rubble and devastation of Kobane.


If I was to hazard a guess, something like this would've been on blasting over their speakers+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ6oVqKKFaM

Glory to the construction workers and landscapers of Turkey.


lol google'd ottoman attack march - anthem and found this (isis's wet dream):

+ Show Spoiler +


reminds me:

+ Show Spoiler +

AssyrianKing
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia2116 Posts
February 22 2015 22:22 GMT
#5598
http://www.aina.org/news/20150221150639.htm

Assyrians arrested in their own land...
John 15:13
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 22 2015 23:41 GMT
#5599
On February 22 2015 20:55 puerk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 14:56 xDaunt wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.

So you are not in favor of proactively dealing with a genocidal entity?

And let us not pretend that ISIS is just a small, extremist faction. Extrapolating from polls asking levels of support for ISIS among Muslims, it is very clear that more than a hundred million Muslims (and possibly a lot more) support ISIS globally. I am all ears when it comes to proposals for dealing with that problem. I just happen to think that any such solution is inevitably going to be bloody.


Oh please, those numbers are totally not representative. It is a stupid thing to say you support ISIS, but to actually assume that support in a poll for a genocidal entitiy is the same as being an extremist commiting those attrocities is equaly dumb.

You seem to ignore everything we know about psychology and actual genocidal regimes: the perpetrators are a small extremist minority covered for by a larger support group, that dissociates/ignores/doesnt know the actual acts. Do you really not see that when allied soldiers forced german citizens to actually visit and look at the concentration camps that they did not scream heil hitler and gave their live to continue the cause? It was armchair extremism, incited by populism. As soon as they were forced to face what they actually supported they couldn't believe it.

Nothing in the world suggests that those 100m you love to parade around everywhere are anywhere close to being dangerous people. They are misslead, incited, armchair extremists. Voicing support for entities they have no intimate knowledge about, and no sense of perspective for the actual acts commited, be it through cognitive dissonance or plain ignorance. They would drop their support of isis the same way citizens of Weimar dropped their support for the third reich in Buchenwald.

You don't have to kill Mitläufer to stop the bandwagon. The act of trying to do that usually even converts them from passive supporters in word only, to actual supporters in action, as they now have an actual beef in the game, where they before where only loudmouths.


Here's the big difference between ISIS and Nazi Germany: ISIS does what it does in fulfillment of its religious beliefs. This isn't a situation like in Nazi Germany where an elite few are able to take control of a country and engage in genocidal acts that are both in furtherance of their racist beliefs and kept secret from the public at large. Everyone knows what ISIS is doing, and the "citizens" of ISIS and many other Muslims around the world support it. If you "support" ISIS in one of these polls, you aren't expressing your support in absence of critical information. ISIS is broadcasting, repeatedly, and for the whole world to see, exactly what it is and what it intends to do. It is unequivocally evil. Unfortunately, what ISIS is doing is also unequivocally supported by fundamentalist interpretations of Islam, and is exactly the same as what Muslims did during their conquests back in the 7th and 8th Centuries (the big difference is that ISIS also wants to "purify" Islam in addition to spreading it).

So apologize for ISIS and its evil all you want, but let's not pretend that the people who support ISIS are ignorant of what ISIS is and what it is doing.

Nevertheless, it is good to see that spirit of Neville Chamberlain is alive and well.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-23 01:06:22
February 23 2015 01:05 GMT
#5600
On February 23 2015 08:41 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2015 20:55 puerk wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:56 xDaunt wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:41 Incognoto wrote:
On February 22 2015 14:39 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote:
ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes.

I recently overheard a colleague in the US saying that "the US should glass the entire Middle East and that includes anyone wearing a turban in America". This was considered sufficiently non controversial to be work appropriate.


So I guess radical islam isn't the problem as much as just being an idiot in the first place.

Certainly I feel that if xDaunt wishes to solve conflicts by killing the people stupid enough to initiate them then America has an awful lot of cleaning up to do at home.

So you are not in favor of proactively dealing with a genocidal entity?

And let us not pretend that ISIS is just a small, extremist faction. Extrapolating from polls asking levels of support for ISIS among Muslims, it is very clear that more than a hundred million Muslims (and possibly a lot more) support ISIS globally. I am all ears when it comes to proposals for dealing with that problem. I just happen to think that any such solution is inevitably going to be bloody.


Oh please, those numbers are totally not representative. It is a stupid thing to say you support ISIS, but to actually assume that support in a poll for a genocidal entitiy is the same as being an extremist commiting those attrocities is equaly dumb.

You seem to ignore everything we know about psychology and actual genocidal regimes: the perpetrators are a small extremist minority covered for by a larger support group, that dissociates/ignores/doesnt know the actual acts. Do you really not see that when allied soldiers forced german citizens to actually visit and look at the concentration camps that they did not scream heil hitler and gave their live to continue the cause? It was armchair extremism, incited by populism. As soon as they were forced to face what they actually supported they couldn't believe it.

Nothing in the world suggests that those 100m you love to parade around everywhere are anywhere close to being dangerous people. They are misslead, incited, armchair extremists. Voicing support for entities they have no intimate knowledge about, and no sense of perspective for the actual acts commited, be it through cognitive dissonance or plain ignorance. They would drop their support of isis the same way citizens of Weimar dropped their support for the third reich in Buchenwald.

You don't have to kill Mitläufer to stop the bandwagon. The act of trying to do that usually even converts them from passive supporters in word only, to actual supporters in action, as they now have an actual beef in the game, where they before where only loudmouths.


Here's the big difference between ISIS and Nazi Germany: ISIS does what it does in fulfillment of its religious beliefs. This isn't a situation like in Nazi Germany where an elite few are able to take control of a country and engage in genocidal acts that are both in furtherance of their racist beliefs and kept secret from the public at large. Everyone knows what ISIS is doing, and the "citizens" of ISIS and many other Muslims around the world support it. If you "support" ISIS in one of these polls, you aren't expressing your support in absence of critical information. ISIS is broadcasting, repeatedly, and for the whole world to see, exactly what it is and what it intends to do. It is unequivocally evil. Unfortunately, what ISIS is doing is also unequivocally supported by fundamentalist interpretations of Islam, and is exactly the same as what Muslims did during their conquests back in the 7th and 8th Centuries (the big difference is that ISIS also wants to "purify" Islam in addition to spreading it).

So apologize for ISIS and its evil all you want, but let's not pretend that the people who support ISIS are ignorant of what ISIS is and what it is doing.

Nevertheless, it is good to see that spirit of Neville Chamberlain is alive and well.


What the actual fuck is wrong with you? I never apologized for ISIS and that claim that i did is actually insulting.

I told you that there is a difference between ISIS and the 100m muslims that you parade around as ISIS supporters because they from the comfort of their home said in a poll yes to some form of question asking about their support for ISIS. No, such a poll is never indicative of the actual in situ action/support/whatever. A person under no duress can talk shit all he wants, and will do so, and it is usually not an acurate description of their true conviction. As you routinly ignore: humans are more complicated than perfect rational actors with infinite time and full absolute information.
I did not say that they have no information about what ISIS is doing, i said the information that they have does not matter enough, because it is no firsthand experience.

How can any sane person ever see the comparison of attrocities of ISIS to the holocaust as a defence of ISIS, are you actually a guy who thinks the holocaust was kind of ok? - because that is the only possibility you could see it as a defence. For me both are indefensible attrocities, but i still don't think every german and every muslim has to be killed in a bloody genocide like you paint as the only solution to stop them.

I have chosen the example of germany because there it was actually tried to kill huge amounts of supporting civilians with the reasoning you are using, and if i remember right (please correct me on that) you have already explicitly advocated bombings in germany targeting civilians in some thread before. But we have pretty good insights in what it actually achived: nothing. Germanys resolve wasn't broken by bombing the civilians, the holocaust lost none of its momentum, nothing was gained from the approach, except a feeling of "doing something". The war and with that the holocaust was only determined to end by the military victory of the allies, which happened to the largest degree on the eastern front.

So if you had actually read and understood my example, you would have seen that i was advocating exactly that: a military action against ISIS determined to win on the field. Not killing every Muslim in the world, like you always hint at, with the small defensive statement that you don't like that option but see it as the only viable one.
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