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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 15 2015 08:04 lastpuritan wrote: And: What do you mean by that, are they useless just because they dont send troops? More or less, yes. They have no stomach for real confrontation. | ||
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GoraKasul
38 Posts
Besides: "US real confrontation" did work out great in both Iraq and Afghanistan, am I right? I'm not sure if you are in the position of accusing someone of being useless and leaving behind a mess... And, honestly, I don't think this is a discussion that is justified in this thread. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 15 2015 12:24 GoraKasul wrote: What does this have to do with anything regarding Iraq and Syria? Besides: "US real confrontation" did work out great in both Iraq and Afghanistan, am I right? I'm not sure if you are in the position of accusing someone of being useless and leaving behind a mess... And, honestly, I don't think this is a discussion that is justified in this thread. It is generally accepted by anyone who isn't either a) a moral relativist, or b) a (to one degree or another) radical muslim that ISIS is a categorically evil entity. Discussing what to do about it is absolutely relevant to this thread. And only the historically myopic blame the US for the rise of ISIS. ISIS is something that was going to come as soon as the secular dictatorships in the Middle East started to fall, as dictatorships always do eventually. Though we enlightened westerners have done our very best to whitewash Middle Eastern and Muslim history, ISIS is merely a resurfacing of an element of Islam that has never gone away. | ||
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Juissi
Finland209 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:12 Juissi wrote: So apparently ISIS released a video where they behead 21 men at the same time. How can rest of the world be so useless that they can't just run over of this group of barbarians? The problem is that western governments are stretched pretty thinly in resources and do not have the support of their own people which is critical to running a war effort. I'd even venture to say even the military itself is unwilling to get involved, specially considering how Iraq-Afghanistan veterans are currently treated. I think another issue is that no one really has a follow up plan. An armed coalition crushes ISIS, then what? Had the Iraq mess not happened it is very likely that the US would be crushing ISIS with world-wide support atm (this is conjecture only obv) Totally aside: Does the UN do anything at all about this? Even a press conference? Seems like they are more concered with promoting feminism than adressing real atrocities. | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote: ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes. How do engange a war against an ideology? I would asume ISIS and a few other similar organizations is the closest doable thing. In your opinion that is not enough right? | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:29 GoTuNk! wrote: How do engange a war against an ideology? I would asume ISIS and a few other similar organizations is the closest doable thing. In your opinion that is not enough right? Historically, the answer to waging wars against ideologies (and other cultures) is the elimination of everyone who adheres to that ideology. Doesn't sound very pleasant, does it? | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:30 xDaunt wrote: Historically, the answer to waging wars against ideologies (and other cultures) is the elimination of everyone who adheres to that ideology. Doesn't sound very pleasant, does it? Yep. Remember that time America defeated Communism by killing every Communist. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12048 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:29 GoTuNk! wrote: How do engange a war against an ideology? I would asume ISIS and a few other similar organizations is the closest doable thing. In your opinion that is not enough right? That's the point. It is not very effective to directly engage ISIS without dealing with the root issues at hand, which is that the whole middle east is a major pot of shit that noone want to touch with a 10 foot pole because that never leads to anything good. ISIS is disgusting. But landing american or european troops will not in any way help defeatin them, it will just lead to an unstable situation that requires constant occupation of the area with daily suicide bombings and all that good stuff. At some point the western troops will get annoyed and leave, and ISIS or something even more shitty will reappear right away. The only way to solve any of this if for some sort of local force to actually be interested in having a stable situation in the region for everyone, and not just their own clientele. I think the last decades have shown pretty well that it is impossible to bring stability from the outside without some sort of interior force in the region. And that simply does not seem to exist. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24408 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:36 Sub40APM wrote: Yep. Remember that time America defeated Communism by killing every Communist. Or the Nazi's?! I mean there are no Nazi sympathizers left. I mean you can't go to a gun show and see a whole row of Nazi memorabilia and swastikas on flags. You also can't see the divisions of white power groups, who like some here, "Don't care about history". They don't mind burning crosses and showing Nazi pride even though their dad's and grandpas fought an died against the real Nazi's. Nope all gone. Thanks genocide! What would we do without you... | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:36 Sub40APM wrote: Yep. Remember that time America defeated Communism by killing every Communist. That doesn't really count. Communism was always secondary to nationalism in the countries where it was implemented, which is why Marx's grand vision of global communism failed. Communism was merely a tool for totalitarian rule. If you look at the countries that had communist revolutions, all of them are still basically totalitarian societies despite shedding much of their communist branding. Getting rid of ISIS is going to be harder because it is far more deeply rooted. Unlike with Communism, people in the Middle East don't identify themselves with the arbitrary nationalities assigned to them by Western powers. Tribe and religion come first. Nothing short of the obliteration of those societies and complete reorganization from the ground up will get rid of ISIS and radical Islam. EDIT: I think the problem here is identifying ISIS has being ideological problem. It goes deeper than that. It's a cultural problem. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On February 16 2015 05:50 Nyxisto wrote: The Middle-East needs some kind of Muslim version of the Catholic Church that combines religious ideas with modern civil society. you mean "Caliphate" ? lol. because before its abolition before ww1, it was changing its community into something very different from current arab societies where you can even drink alcohol and caliph composes vals and stuff. why would you abolish it then? same mistake by british design of middle east, it all comes to that, whole problem in iraq and syria also dates back to that root. On February 16 2015 05:43 Simberto wrote: That's the point. It is not very effective to directly engage ISIS without dealing with the root issues at hand, which is that the whole middle east is a major pot of shit that noone want to touch with a 10 foot pole because that never leads to anything good. ISIS is disgusting. But landing american or european troops will not in any way help defeatin them, it will just lead to an unstable situation that requires constant occupation of the area with daily suicide bombings and all that good stuff. At some point the western troops will get annoyed and leave, and ISIS or something even more shitty will reappear right away. The only way to solve any of this if for some sort of local force to actually be interested in having a stable situation in the region for everyone, and not just their own clientele. I think the last decades have shown pretty well that it is impossible to bring stability from the outside without some sort of interior force in the region. And that simply does not seem to exist. so why should arabs or turks or iranians intervene? why you say that? do you really think isis will have less hatred for them when they step in? On February 16 2015 05:26 xDaunt wrote: ISIS isn't the root problem. Radical Islam is. Getting rid of that would probably require something very close to the commission of war crimes. wow. thats unique. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world have a look at that list, can you even destroy iran, turkey, india, pakistan etc. totally? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 16 2015 08:56 lastpuritan wrote: you mean "Caliphate" ? lol. because before its abolition before ww1, it was changing its community into something very different from current arab societies where you can even drink alcohol and caliph composes vals and stuff. why would you abolish it then? same mistake by british design of middle east, it all comes to that, whole problem in iraq and syria also dates back to that root. Not the crazy caliphate they're trying to build now, but a secular Middle-East is a fantasy. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12048 Posts
What i do know is that western military in the middle east does not make things better. I have no idea what would make things better. So many people in that area seem to be so happy with killing each other that it appears to be very hard to stop them from doing so and hurting anyone who happens to get caught in between. And there seem to be so few people who really want to have a stable system as opposed to just their group being the ones who are in charge and get to punch everyone else down. This obviously sucks. But it does not seem to be easily solvable, and the one idea people constantly have, which is going there and killing even more people seems to not do any good, and is thus the only thing i am quite certain of that is not a good idea. The point is not killing some ISIS dudes. Western militaries are good at that, and could probably do that without a big problem. They could also probably easily take over and occupy all of syria. At which point you have the same situation as in iraq for more than a decade. Killing a few guys does not help if it makes even more guys angry at you, and the more instable the situation in a country is the more angry the population will be at the occupation forces. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On February 16 2015 09:24 Nyxisto wrote: Not the crazy caliphate they're trying to build now, but a secular Middle-East is a fantasy. vals and alcohol thing was not pun, nor a fantasy. | ||
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
Makes me wonder if these foreign fighters really know what they're getting into? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
CAIRO: Egypt has the right to respond with “the adequate means to the execution of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians” by the Libyan branch of the Islamic State group, President Abdel Fatah al-Sisi announced in a televised address early Monday morning. Foreign Minister Sameh Shokry will travel to the United Nations to discuss the Islamic State group and Libya, the president added, following the release of an execution video of 21 Egyptian Copts who were kidnapped in Libya in early January. The video, published Sunday, shows the mass beheading of the 21 Copts, wearing the same orange jumpsuits they had worn in previous photos published by IS. Sisi’s address followed his meeting with the National Defense Council, and he said “I have directed the government to stand beside the families of the victims.” President Sisi also announced a seven-day national mourning period in respect for those murdered. Source Southern Front's 1st Corps releases compilation of footage from Battle of Sheikh Miskeen. | ||
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