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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On June 19 2012 06:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:27 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Like Henry Kissinger said, it's a shame both sides can't lose.
The truly liberal factions in Arab countries are so disorganized and small compared to the pro-government and Islamist factions that it isn't realistic to imagine that they could emerge victorious... do you want a semi-secular dictatorship or a theocracy, neither choice is good. Semi-secular dictatorship isn't too bad if done right. Gaddafi wasn't too bad in his early years if you were a Libyan. Cheap gas, free electricity (I've seen talks about all the different benefits under Gaddafi, are at least some of those true? I know gas was really at 14 cents a gallon though, OPEC  ) Russia thinks it's one as well. Given that it's been 20 years since state-mandated atheism, religion has come out a lot in that country. And Putin is virtually becoming a dictator, going for 12 + 4 years in power now with pretty good support. I was born and I've lived there recently, it doesn't seem so bad tbh.
The problem is that the corruption and repression sucks for most of the population and eventually provokes unrest or an uprising against the oligarchy. If you're a part of the dictator's tribe in Arab countries or you're useful to the rulers in Russia you have a pretty good life, otherwise you get the crappy end of the stick. A lot of Russia's population just for example lives in crumbling 5-story apartment buildings built back when Kruschev was still in charge and they had a reputation for being crappy right when they were constructed. No replacements have been built because that doesn't benefit the guys in the Kremlin anywhere near as much as pouring money into special favors for select industries (like oil and gas production).
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On June 19 2012 06:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 06:33 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On June 19 2012 06:27 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Like Henry Kissinger said, it's a shame both sides can't lose.
The truly liberal factions in Arab countries are so disorganized and small compared to the pro-government and Islamist factions that it isn't realistic to imagine that they could emerge victorious... do you want a semi-secular dictatorship or a theocracy, neither choice is good. Semi-secular dictatorship isn't too bad if done right. Gaddafi wasn't too bad in his early years if you were a Libyan. Cheap gas, free electricity (I've seen talks about all the different benefits under Gaddafi, are at least some of those true? I know gas was really at 14 cents a gallon though, OPEC ) Russia thinks it's one as well. Given that it's been 20 years since state-mandated atheism, religion has come out a lot in that country. And Putin is virtually becoming a dictator, going for 12 + 4 years in power now with pretty good support. I was born and I've lived there recently, it doesn't seem so bad tbh. The problem is that the corruption and repression sucks for most of the population and eventually provokes unrest or an uprising against the oligarchy. If you're a part of the dictator's tribe in Arab countries or you're useful to the rulers in Russia you have a pretty good life, otherwise you get the crappy end of the stick. A lot of Russia's population just for example lives in crumbling 5-story apartment buildings built back when Kruschev was still in charge and they had a reputation for being crappy right when they were constructed. No replacements have been built because that doesn't benefit the guys in the Kremlin anywhere near as much as pouring money into special favors for select industries (like oil and gas production).
From what I've seen there's actually been a shitload of construction (although that may be just because I was in Moscow, if they have to start improvements anywhere it's there). The 5-story apartment buildings have been decently renovated. They're still crumbling, just not as much and more slowly now.
But that doesn't explain the 12-16 story buildings sprouting up right behind the 5-story ones. I think the ones I lived by were finished around 2008. Within the city proper they're making them even higher, and almost everywhere in Moscow you could see a construction crane. Are these buildings shitty? Who knows, I didn't go around inspecting every building I saw. Even during Soviet times, you have the 9-story apartment buildings build around the 70's.
But there's been definitely replacements. A lot of them.
As for the crappy end of the stick, it's actually Moscow itself where these huge protests are happening, so I'd imagine we'd be the shit site. St. Petersburg had a small rally, pretty much everywhere else had a nonexistent one.
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A Turkish fighter jet has gone missing over the Mediterranean near Syria, risking a new crisis between Middle Eastern neighbours already at bitter odds over a 16-month-old revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The military said a search and rescue operation for the two pilots of the F-4 plane was under way, the Anatolia state news agency said.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said at a news conference on Friday that he did not know whether Syria had shot down the plane, and said that Syria had sent no word of apology.
Ankara had said earlier that it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast after it took off from Erhac airport in the eastern province of Malatya.
Source
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On June 23 2012 03:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +A Turkish fighter jet has gone missing over the Mediterranean near Syria, risking a new crisis between Middle Eastern neighbours already at bitter odds over a 16-month-old revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The military said a search and rescue operation for the two pilots of the F-4 plane was under way, the Anatolia state news agency said.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said at a news conference on Friday that he did not know whether Syria had shot down the plane, and said that Syria had sent no word of apology.
Ankara had said earlier that it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast after it took off from Erhac airport in the eastern province of Malatya. Source
Would there be any reason for Syria to shoot down the Turkish aircraft? :O
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On June 23 2012 03:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:A Turkish fighter jet has gone missing over the Mediterranean near Syria, risking a new crisis between Middle Eastern neighbours already at bitter odds over a 16-month-old revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The military said a search and rescue operation for the two pilots of the F-4 plane was under way, the Anatolia state news agency said.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said at a news conference on Friday that he did not know whether Syria had shot down the plane, and said that Syria had sent no word of apology.
Ankara had said earlier that it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast after it took off from Erhac airport in the eastern province of Malatya. Source Would there be any reason for Syria to shoot down the Turkish aircraft? :O
Countries have done more stupid and senseless things in the past.
EDIT: But no one knows what happened yet apparently and BOTH countries are searching for it. So I doubt it was an act of aggression on any side.
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On June 23 2012 03:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:A Turkish fighter jet has gone missing over the Mediterranean near Syria, risking a new crisis between Middle Eastern neighbours already at bitter odds over a 16-month-old revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The military said a search and rescue operation for the two pilots of the F-4 plane was under way, the Anatolia state news agency said.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said at a news conference on Friday that he did not know whether Syria had shot down the plane, and said that Syria had sent no word of apology.
Ankara had said earlier that it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast after it took off from Erhac airport in the eastern province of Malatya. Source Would there be any reason for Syria to shoot down the Turkish aircraft? :O
Well, Turkey is actively supporting the Free Syrian Army against the regime by for instance allowing transportation of weapons to them. Supporting rebels within another country counts as an act of war.
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Well, I'm sure if Russia flew a jet over America, it would get shot down even before it saw land.
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We are so totally fucked.
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On June 23 2012 08:10 Visas wrote:
We are so totally fucked.
Who are "we" in this sentence refering to?
Edit: To clairfy, I doubt anything will happen to Turkey what so ever as it stands.
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Welp.
Syria admits it shot it down. Just saw on CNN.
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I assume it was a biplane?
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On June 23 2012 08:10 Visas wrote:
We are so totally fucked.
fuck. i am going to turkey in september. i am so totally fucked. =(
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On June 23 2012 08:36 Candadar wrote:
Welp.
Syria admits it shot it down. Just saw on CNN.
from what i heard its unkown if it was shot down or crashed
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If it was indeed shot down I don't think Russia or even China will try to help Syria face as this is basically an attack on a Sovereign nation and not just any Middle East nation this is Turkey a modernized Muslim nation which can easily carry it's own weight whether it be economic or military.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 00:17 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 20:49 Art.FeeL wrote:On June 18 2012 20:42 Alex-Berker wrote:On June 18 2012 20:38 Art.FeeL wrote:On June 18 2012 15:09 Alex-Berker wrote:On June 18 2012 06:54 xM(Z wrote:
there is no point for Assad to kill women and children. none what so ever; especially now when everyone is watching.
he has the power, the armed intervention was vetoed and he outguns the rebels. all he has to do now is just wait them out.
the only ones that could win something from those massacres are the rebels. Exactly. The rest of you who dont like my quote are ignorant as hell. İ have first hand sources that tell me what is going on. There was a photo from aljazeera of a us soldier pointing a gun at a detained persons mouth. The photo was photoshoped to look like a water canister. İ dont ask to belive my POV just dont listen to the media or the internet as anyone can say anything. Wait, what benefit would the so called terrorists gain by massacring the population? Are you one of those conspiracy theorists who get their news from RT.com or what? Are you aware of sectarian division there is in Syria or are you blatantly talking from your, excuse me, arse? Is this Syrian army or terrorists cosplaying as Syrian army? Very NSFW + Show Spoiler +Or maybe terrorists mysteriously have heavy artillery? + Show Spoiler +And all of this is nothing new for the Assad family. They massacred tens of thousands in Hama in 1982. LINKIn short Assad belongs to the Alawites (and offshoot of Shia Islam) which comprise of about 10 percent of the whole population. They occupy all the high positions within governments and are controlling the country which is mainly Sunni. The sectarian division gains Assad a lot of things. For example fervent support from his clan, excuse to continue with army interventions and the old 'I told ya, if I go there will be chaos'. Anyone who has even little brain should reconsider the beginning of the revolution, what happened then? People wanted some reforms, they didn't ask for Bashar to leave nor anything. Moreover for the first few months the opposition was opposed to any military intervention and wanted to resolve things peacefully. But as they saw that Assad isn't going to compromise they started to arm themselves. Funny that these terrorists appeared just after Assad's army had killed a few hundreds protesters. And there are still people who would rather live in their own fantasy world... I understand where youre comming from all im asking you to do is to not be so one sided! Maybe the terrorists have heavy artillery maybe they are cosplaying. The massacre in Harma is a massacre regardless of who did the killing. This got way out of hand can we just debate on the ideal solution to the current problems? I am very interested to see what your ideal outcome would be. For me it would still be to overthrow assad but not to place someone from the free syrain army there. Well, anyone who still believes there is a peaceful solution is deluding himself. Assad hasn't respected anything he said he would and is clearly playing his game, backed up by Russia. Free Syrian Army are Syrians, so if you wouldn't like them to come in power, who should? I see only one solution and that is arming and helping Free Syrian Army. Any military intervention from the outside, could trigger even worse things because Russia has a base in Syria. For one thing, the Free Syrian Army is calling for a NATO intervention. That is, they want an outside power to put them in charge of their home country. Their government would be illegitimate, and the process of putting them in power would probably lead to at least as many civilian deaths as Assad can be accountable for. We saw a similar situation with the fall of Gadaffi, where the rebel groups that took power after were responsible for violence and ethnical cleansing against the civilian population and where the war caused maybe 10 times as many deaths as Gadaffi had caused. The Free Syrian Army is far from representative of the entire opposition against Assad. There are many groupings. For instance the central organizing committees who call for a non-violent approach that does not involve outside intervention. Arming the Free Syrian Army would probably lead to an out-drawn civil war with countless of deaths. A majority of the Syrian people actually now support Assad even though they may be opposed to him long-term. Much of this support may be due to the fact that a civil war would be much much worse and that they don't trust the Free Syrian Army or the rest of the armed opposition. In any case, we do not as outsiders have the right to decide who is going to be the Syrian government. But the least we can do to help is to not introduce more weapons into the conflict or start bombing. That would escalate the violence tenfold.
interresting post guess who benefits the most if assad is taken down
usa
because the regional value against a war vs iran is on top
who lead the nato ?
usa
who organise/train the rebels syria
the same people who trained the taliban during the afganistan war vs the soviet
that are the same peole who caused the uprising in lybia
and that are the very same guys who crushed the first democratic goverment that iran had ever had and put a dictator back in charge that was pro usa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
its always the same make a uprising or kill important figures
and put instead a puppet goverment
of the usa
there is a reason why china and russia make veto
because they dont believe the same crap that happen in libya
remember the nato resoltion to protect the lybia air from gaddafi so he could not kill his own people
that resolution was for defense only
but yet they bombed lybia and caused caulties that they wanted to avoid
and why we see never the rebel hq
its because its not in syria or turkey
its in wachincton dc
User was warned for this post
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On June 23 2012 09:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If it was indeed shot down I don't think Russia or even China will try to help Syria face as this is basically an attack on a Sovereign nation and not just any Middle East nation this is Turkey a modernized Muslim nation which can easily carry it's own weight whether it be economic or military.
It wouldn't work because Syria says the plane invaded their airspace, so it was justified. True or not we won't know, but this won't get anywhere on the security council.
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On June 23 2012 09:50 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 09:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If it was indeed shot down I don't think Russia or even China will try to help Syria face as this is basically an attack on a Sovereign nation and not just any Middle East nation this is Turkey a modernized Muslim nation which can easily carry it's own weight whether it be economic or military. It wouldn't work because Syria says the plane invaded their airspace, so it was justified. True or not we won't know, but this won't get anywhere on the security council.
the aircraft wasnt carrying any weapons. it is a RF-4E recon class plane, it is mission was to fly at southern turkey but apperantly according to the turkish government, its radar and communication systems were shut down (no one knows how yet since they are still trying to find the plane) and they were unable to communicate or guide the aircraft in any way to the safe place. there is a possibilty that the aircraft might have entered to the syrian airspace and unfortunately it got shot down by syrian military and their new anti air defense system which was bought from the russians recently.
syrian officals have announced that they indeed shot down the plane as soon as it entered to their airspace.
i understand shooting down the plane since there were no response from the pilot or the aircraft but just appearing on your radar and entering your airspace but this is still not a justified move. Usually in these kind of cases, pilot or the aircraft must be get contacted, if this first step fails then you launch your jets to escort that plane and move it out of your airspace with your jets that has a working navigation.
similar thing happened between turkey and israel few months ago when some israeli plane entered to the turkish airspace and it got escorted back to israel after failing to communicate with the pilot or the aircraft.
also 1 more thing, this move by syria gives enough justification for Turkey to declare war on syria on diplomatic level.
pentagon anouncement 2 hours after the incident; according to the nato decree number 5, any hostility shown towards to the member nations of nato will be recognized as a hostility towards rest of the member nations in nato. if turkey decides to retaliate against syria, this will give NATO the oppurtunity to enter into Syria.
now the ball is at the Turkish court.
i do believe NATO with USA and Turkish initiation wont let this opportunity to go away.
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Yeah, I feel this will provoke a serious crisis.. if the pilots are not dead, Turkey might not get provoked.. if they are, then the government will be pushed to act..
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On June 23 2012 11:29 Reyis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 09:50 furymonkey wrote:On June 23 2012 09:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If it was indeed shot down I don't think Russia or even China will try to help Syria face as this is basically an attack on a Sovereign nation and not just any Middle East nation this is Turkey a modernized Muslim nation which can easily carry it's own weight whether it be economic or military. It wouldn't work because Syria says the plane invaded their airspace, so it was justified. True or not we won't know, but this won't get anywhere on the security council. the aircraft wasnt carrying any weapons. it is a RF-4E recon class plane, it is mission was to fly at southern turkey but apperantly according to the turkish government, its radar and communication systems were shut down (no one knows how yet since they are still trying to find the plane) and they were unable to communicate or guide the aircraft in any way to the safe place. there is a possibilty that the aircraft might have entered to the syrian airspace and unfortunately it got shot down by syrian military and their new anti air defense system which was bought from the russians recently. syrian officals have announced that they indeed shot down the plane as soon as it entered to their airspace. i understand shooting down the plane since there were no response from the pilot or the aircraft but just appearing on your radar and entering your airspace but this is still not a justified move. Usually in these kind of cases, pilot or the aircraft must be get contacted, if this first step fails then you launch your jets to escort that plane and move it out of your airspace with your jets that has a working navigation. similar thing happened between turkey and israel few months ago when some israeli plane entered to the turkish airspace and it got escorted back to israel after failing to communicate with the pilot or the aircraft. also 1 more thing, this move by syria gives enough justification for Turkey to declare war on syria on diplomatic level. pentagon anouncement 2 hours after the incident; according to the nato decree number 5, any hostility shown towards to the member nations of nato will be recognized as a hostility towards rest of the member nations in nato. if turkey decides to retaliate against syria, this will give NATO the oppurtunity to enter into Syria. now the ball is at the Turkish court. i do believe NATO with USA and Turkish initiation wont let this opportunity to go away.
Doesn't matter if the aircraft was armed or not, a military aircraft was already bad enough.
You're talking about scenario where both countries are in good relation and want to avoid diplomatic fallout. However from the sound of news both country's relationship are already looking pretty bad, it definitely aren't normal and I doubt they cared about the diplomatic fallout. What i'm saying is this event itself is not gonna fly with Russian and China, like what the person I was replying is suggesting.
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On June 23 2012 09:03 dAPhREAk wrote:fuck. i am going to turkey in september. i am so totally fucked. =(
nothing will happen. Turkish economy doing so good these days, they won't do anything extreme and ruin the growth. And it's summer you know, even these speculations costing turkey billions of tourisim income. there will be ultimatums, political tension etc etc but I doubt things will get worse.
On June 23 2012 09:50 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 09:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If it was indeed shot down I don't think Russia or even China will try to help Syria face as this is basically an attack on a Sovereign nation and not just any Middle East nation this is Turkey a modernized Muslim nation which can easily carry it's own weight whether it be economic or military. It wouldn't work because Syria says the plane invaded their airspace, so it was justified. True or not we won't know, but this won't get anywhere on the security council.
I'm not expert on this one but I believe you can't just shoot down a plane because of a 1km breach. I believe you're supposed to 1) contact plane 2) contact other country 3) launch emergency fighter planes and force it down 4) shoot it's wings from behind as last resort.
It's not like he was flying over damascus you know.
that being said, I believe Turkish government is blaming Syria for the last huge terrorist attack ( probably rightfully ) and I feel like all these stuff are staged / planned. /tinfoilhatoff
On June 23 2012 05:12 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 03:57 Mohdoo wrote:On June 23 2012 03:45 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:A Turkish fighter jet has gone missing over the Mediterranean near Syria, risking a new crisis between Middle Eastern neighbours already at bitter odds over a 16-month-old revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
The military said a search and rescue operation for the two pilots of the F-4 plane was under way, the Anatolia state news agency said.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said at a news conference on Friday that he did not know whether Syria had shot down the plane, and said that Syria had sent no word of apology.
Ankara had said earlier that it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast after it took off from Erhac airport in the eastern province of Malatya. Source Would there be any reason for Syria to shoot down the Turkish aircraft? :O Well, Turkey is actively supporting the Free Syrian Army against the regime by for instance allowing transportation of weapons to them. Supporting rebels within another country counts as an act of war.
Weellll, you know ;
Well, Syria is actively supporting the kurdish terrorists against the regime by for instance allowing transportation of weapons to them. Supporting terrorists within another country counts as an act of war.
It's not like Turkey hates Assad because of his bad hair and goofy look.
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EPT
