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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
Putin is a massive a hypocrite I don't that needs to be proven here his own actions prove that beyond a shadow of doubt.
That being said I don't even begin to understand why the NYT published his hypocritical peace drivel, especially with him busy exporting weapons etc. the only reason I can think of is that the US embarrassed itself so badly these past few weeks with Obama trying to cover his "red line" statement and then back-peddling and then trying to pretend like he wasn't back-peddling
and everyone else in the world laughing their asses off. It's gotten so bad that I guess he NYT feels it's ok to publish an op-ed from one of the worlds largest ass-holes
All in all it's kinda embarrassing to be the US right now
Oh ya and by the way interfering with Syria has nothing to do with the welfare of its people if it had anything to do with that governments would've stepped in before 100,000 people were killed and millions of refugees were created
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On September 13 2013 03:45 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:26 Uvantak wrote:On September 12 2013 21:47 xM(Z wrote:
so if the FSA doesn't get the weapons it means the al-qaeda, al-nusra get them? ... No, Al Nusra is part of the FSA, but they are just a sub group of it like groups of christian fighters or groups of Alawite fighters, if they say that the FSA is not getting weapons it means that no rebel group is receiving weapons. I say it again, Fuck Putin. you can say that they fight on the same side but as far as leadership goes, those groups are decentralized. US could arm factions selectively.
Completely, but saying FSA means that you are talking about the entire conglomerate of rebels, not single groups, and that's the point i'm making and what you where asking :p.
Also it not like the US is gonna avoid arming the non extremists and give weapons to Al Nusra instead, that would be retarded AND useless since Al Nusra does not want any gift (nor anything alse for that mater) coming from hands of western powers, so even if the US handed them lets say RPG's or Ammo Al Nusra would not take it, because they don't want western help.
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On September 13 2013 03:56 Uvantak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:45 xM(Z wrote:On September 13 2013 03:26 Uvantak wrote:On September 12 2013 21:47 xM(Z wrote:
so if the FSA doesn't get the weapons it means the al-qaeda, al-nusra get them? ... No, Al Nusra is part of the FSA, but they are just a sub group of it like groups of christian fighters or groups of Alawite fighters, if they say that the FSA is not getting weapons it means that no rebel group is receiving weapons. I say it again, Fuck Putin. you can say that they fight on the same side but as far as leadership goes, those groups are decentralized. US could arm factions selectively. Completely, but saying FSA means that you are talking about the entire conglomerate of rebels, not single groups, and that's the point i'm making and what you where asking :p. Also it not like the US is gonna avoid arming the non extremists and give weapons to Al Nusra instead, that would be retarded AND useless since Al Nusra does not want any gift (nor anything alse for that mater) coming from hands of western powers, so even if the US handed them lets say RPG's or Ammo Al Nusra would not take it, because they don't want western help.
yea, sure, they'll go and shoot with their dignity at Assad army ...
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On September 13 2013 04:05 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 03:56 Uvantak wrote:On September 13 2013 03:45 xM(Z wrote:On September 13 2013 03:26 Uvantak wrote:On September 12 2013 21:47 xM(Z wrote:
so if the FSA doesn't get the weapons it means the al-qaeda, al-nusra get them? ... No, Al Nusra is part of the FSA, but they are just a sub group of it like groups of christian fighters or groups of Alawite fighters, if they say that the FSA is not getting weapons it means that no rebel group is receiving weapons. I say it again, Fuck Putin. you can say that they fight on the same side but as far as leadership goes, those groups are decentralized. US could arm factions selectively. Completely, but saying FSA means that you are talking about the entire conglomerate of rebels, not single groups, and that's the point i'm making and what you where asking :p. Also it not like the US is gonna avoid arming the non extremists and give weapons to Al Nusra instead, that would be retarded AND useless since Al Nusra does not want any gift (nor anything alse for that mater) coming from hands of western powers, so even if the US handed them lets say RPG's or Ammo Al Nusra would not take it, because they don't want western help. yea, sure, they'll go and shoot with their dignity at Assad army ...
lol but really, they have Al Qaeda and some Arabic oil lords backing them up with training and weapons, they don't really need the US to fuck Assad's forces up, they can on their own, besides their beliefs tell them that they have Allah to support and watch out for them, that's the way it is, these guys are religious extremists after all, they don't follow reason.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html
The US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world.
Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens.
Let other nations do their own dirty work.
I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off.
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On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off.
Congressmen are too stupid to actually do something this sensible.
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On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off.
The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet.
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On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet.
Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.
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On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet.
Just being the biggest already makes people dislike you.
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On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off.
The biggest problem with the military budged in America is that we can't just cut it by 50%, that would have devastating effects on our economy since producing stuff for the military is such a large industry here. I think we need to slowly cut it down so the effects aren't as drastic as just cutting it in half instantly.
That being said, I do think our "defense" industry is out of control at the moment, just look at the $1.5 trillion F35 program. F35's have tons of things wrong with them + Show Spoiler +might explode if struck by lightning, pilots can't see behind themselves, etc.
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On September 13 2013 04:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet. Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.
While I don't think that anyone owes Americans "gratitude", your understanding of history seems rather lacking. Tell me, when was the last time a single nation gave GRANTS (no repayment) to practically an entire continent?
Edit: don't get me wrong, the Marshall plan was hardly a purely altruistic measure, but when you say "The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.", you are literally describing every country ever, except for those like North Korea maybe.
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On September 13 2013 04:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet. Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.
List them please for both so we can at least act like what you're saying isn't just hate and has some actual basis
Also roflmao the "you're not altruists so you're bad" argument. Is it fun to live in fantasia?
Congressmen are too stupid to actually do something this sensible.
Even Congresscritters aren't stupid enough to do something so stupid.
The US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world.
Why would we want to do something so incredibly short sighted and stupid
So China and everybody else in East Asia can beat their chests even harder and make even more faces at each other?
So India and Pakistan can go back to doing the maybe we'll have a major war maybe not tango?
So the African Union can be left drifting in the wind against the Shabaab and in its other peacekeeping missions?
So Israel and Iran can finally duke it out?
So Egypt can go full metal jacket on Islamists whether they're peaceful or not?
So Jordan can become another Syria?
So Colombia can be left on its own to face FARC and the drug lords and the nations in S. America like Venezuela who aid and abet them?
So Europe can lose the only leverage - its American alliance - it has over Russia?
So Europe can lose more than half of what makes Europe relevant internationally? Without the American alliance Europe collectively is a second-rate economic power and a 4th-rate military power.
Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens.
Tensions rise in East Asia
Tensions rise in Central Asia
Tensions rise in Mediterranean Africa and sub-Saharan Africa
More violence in sub-Saharan Africa
Tensions rise between Russia and the former USSR republics and between Russia and the EU
The EU loses its international clout
Dictators in the Middle East become more brutal as they either turn to Russia/China to be their patrons or left on their own think they have to be more brutal to keep in control
More civil wars in the Middle East
The UN dies. The UN can't survive as a meaningful and effective organization in a world where the two most active great powers are China and Russia. Europe can't keep the UN going on its own.
If the last 70 years are the results of rampant US militarism (defense of South Korea, collapse of the USSR, the lowest level of wars and violence in modern history), clearly we need more of it.
Let other nations do their own dirty work.
They do it dirtier so why is that a good thing?
I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off.
Apologize for what? Carrying their water for them?
Back off from what? Carrying their water for them?
Pissed off, so what. They should be concerned about pissing us off. Not the other way around.
I don't see why you and so many people are so interested in turning the world over to Russia and China and turning the EU into a nonentity and thinking things will go okay. It's a fool's errand.
Because oh no it's not safe to be an American outside of America - compared to what? The Cold War? It was a lot less safer then to be an American outside of America...
And all that animosity! Compared to what? There was a lot more animosity towards America in between 1946 and 1991 than there is now, somehow we managed to survive just fine.
The day a country bases its policy on what foreigners like is the day that country declares its ready to roll over and get screwed until its used up.
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On September 13 2013 04:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:35 maybenexttime wrote:On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet. Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves. While I don't think that anyone owes Americans "gratitude", your understanding of history seems rather lacking. Tell me, when was the last time a single nation gave GRANTS (no repayment) to practically an entire continent? Edit: don't get me wrong, the Marshall plan was hardly a purely altruistic measure, but when you say "The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.", you are literally describing every country ever, except for those like North Korea maybe.
Exactly. Because the USA does not help in order to help, but in order to gain. I simply disagree with his notion that people's attitudes are somehow ungrateful. I really don't see that "comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet".
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On September 13 2013 04:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:35 maybenexttime wrote:On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet. Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves. While I don't think that anyone owes Americans "gratitude", your understanding of history seems rather lacking. Tell me, when was the last time a single nation gave GRANTS (no repayment) to practically an entire continent? Edit: don't get me wrong, the Marshall plan was hardly a purely altruistic measure, but when you say "The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.", you are literally describing every country ever, except for those like North Korea maybe.
This is true.
If you believe that Americans are truly exceptional then I guess its reasonable to expect gratitude.
I've think we've dropped a lot of bombs and done a lot of shady business across the globe (see South America.... Manifest Destiny ... how's that for a policy).
I don't expect gratitude for being an American, at this point I'm hoping they don't hate me.
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On September 13 2013 04:56 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 04:39 farvacola wrote:On September 13 2013 04:35 maybenexttime wrote:On September 13 2013 04:28 xDaunt wrote:On September 13 2013 04:18 dsousa wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.htmlThe US should cuts it military budget by 50% and pull back from policing the world. Enough it enough, we've tried rampant militarism for 70 years, lets try 5-10 years of being a passive observer and lets see what happens. Let other nations do their own dirty work. I grew up travelling around the world and nothing is worse than the fact that our government is making it dangerous to be an American across this planet. We've created FAR too much animosity towards the USA, it time we apologize and back off. The funniest part about traveling abroad as an American is seeing the sheer ingratitude towards Americans from so many different peoples. People get so sucked up in some of the bad things that the US has done, that they completely overlook the comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet. Haha, really? Gratitude for what? Seems to me your country turned more countries into horrible shitholes than Great Britain during the time it was an empire. The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves. While I don't think that anyone owes Americans "gratitude", your understanding of history seems rather lacking. Tell me, when was the last time a single nation gave GRANTS (no repayment) to practically an entire continent? Edit: don't get me wrong, the Marshall plan was hardly a purely altruistic measure, but when you say "The only countries you ever helped was when you had some common interests with them or benefited from helping them yourselves.", you are literally describing every country ever, except for those like North Korea maybe. Exactly. Because the USA does not help in order to help, but in order to gain. I simply disagree with his notion that people's attitudes are somehow ungrateful. I really don't see that "comparatively large positive side of the balance sheet".
The USA embezzled billions of dollars into your country in the 1980s so you wouldn't be living under the Russian jackboot right now, but hey it wasn't exclusively to help you so man we shouldn't even have done it, it was wrong for us to back Solidarity. We should have let the Russians keep shooting you and throwing you in jail and beating you up and threatening to invade your country with the Red Army to keep you in line.
Just the stupidest shit ever, criticizing a country helping other countries because it isn't 100% altruistic. Maybe we should all live in 100% selfish land where no one helps anyone ever, your pure as the driven snow moral standards would be satisfied then right?
You don't see it because you're an ignorant childish America-hater. Your attitude is ungrateful because all you do is bitch bitch bitch the USA out with absolutely no balance or fairness you can't even bring yourself to give the USA any credit for rebuilding Western Europe after WW2 because blah blah blah bullshit. Maybe we should have just left it in ruins I'm sure the Europeans would have been able to rebuild their destroyed countries and economies with no help by say 1980. Rubble and no money is a great foundation to rebuild a country on. That Marshall Plan money should have stayed in America and all the other trillions of dollars we've spent rebuilding other countries too at least then no one would be trying to disagree with you about how awful the US is.
This is true.
If you believe that Americans are truly exceptional then I guess its reasonable to expect gratitude.
It's reasonable to expect gratitude when you help someone
Bringing exceptionalism into it is a nonsequitir trying to twist things back into some emotional criticism of America
I've think we've dropped a lot of bombs and done a lot of shady business across the globe (see South America.... Manifest Destiny ... how's that for a policy).
lololol
Manifest Destiny
population migrations happen man bitching about it 150-300 years later is like bitching at the Germans for invading England 1500 years ago or bitching at Scandinavians for invading well everywhere in Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals 1300 years ago
America's not going to apologize for fighting the KGB in South America, awful things were done that shouldn't have been but we're not going to sit here and act like it would have been hunky dory if we allowed other countries to do it just because we were afraid about people bitching at us for doing it 30 years later. Maybe you can go back in time and explain to the Soviets how wrong it is to do these things so you shouldn't do them and see how far it gets you.
I don't expect gratitude for being an American, at this point I'm hoping they don't hate me.
Why should you expect personal gratitude from a foreigner who probably wasn't even alive when America did the things that kept his country from being a Soviet hellhole
There's going to be a lot more who really are going to hate you and every American if we take your advice and create a power vacuum in the world for governments that actually are bad to exploit.
America dips out what happens 2 minutes later is China starts occupying islands and giving the finger to Japan and Vietnam and the Filipinos and the rest, it's 50-50 whether North Korea would sit tight or turn Seoul into a crater but they'd definitely try to improve their position at the expense of SK, India and Pakistan would start sniping at each other again like it's 1999, Jordanian government would start to crumble, Egyptian government would get more hardline, Russia would start being more aggressive towards Europe than it already is, Israel and Iran would go at each other's throats and a whole lot of other shitty stuff that is only being held in check by the military and financial power of the United States.
You think countries (and tribes and terrorists and rebels and everybody basically) are just going to sit around and not make moves against their rivals and hated enemies with the new freedom of action they have with the United States sitting on the sidelines?
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Irregardless of who used chemical weapons in Syria, the better plan is to take control of the weapons rather than shooting some cruise missiles.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Hmmm... a bunch of non-war-crimes being listed as war crimes... well don't have to waste my time with it at least. Try to find a list that isn't hilarious bullshit. Cuba 1959-1961? What war crimes were perpetrated on Cuba by the US in that time? 1,500 Cuban exiles being pinned down on a beach by 50,000 Castro soldiers does not constitute a war crime against anyone sorry. Grenada? What war crimes did the US commit there? Panama? Bulgaria what? Oh so 4 missiles malfunctioned and accidentally hit Bulgaria in 1999 and apparently caused zero casualties so that's a deliberate war crime against Bulgaria by the US. Lebanon? What war crimes did the US do there in 1983-1984 when US soldiers were in Lebanon as part of a UNITED NATIONS PEACEKEEPING MISSION that was created in response to a REQUEST FROM LEBANON for peacekeepers.
Really now that list, so stupid it's so funny.
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Zurich15366 Posts
This is really getting off topic.
Back to Syria please.
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Really I'm losing faith in that thread
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EPT
