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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On September 12 2013 23:26 MagmaPunch wrote: Conventional weapons are much more ''harmless'' than the chemical weapons in my opinion. Can you really control the chemical weapon ?Can you restrict its spread? Mm, not really. Does it have a really negative effect on the environment ? Yep, much worse than the conventional weapons.Conventional weapons kill fast most of the time,unless the death is caused by blood loss from a severed limb for example, although the death by conventional weapons could be really brutal. Chemical weapons,however, do not kill so fast from what I know, leaving the victims agonizing before the pass away.So, in my honest opinion, conventional weapons are the lesser of the evils, but hell, I could be wrong.
As someone mentioned, the US uses radioactive shells (simply because they pierce armor better). These depleted shells are very small and simply litter the ground, too small and too many to be collected.
Radioactive, "conventional" weapons, we currently use, that litter the ground with radioactive shells.
If we're going to talk about long-term environmental effects: nerve gas in particular doesn't leave much trace of itself. It blows away. Conventional explosives can have very long-term environmental impacts. It doesn't just blow a hole in the ground. Explosive chemicals are extremely toxic. This is where I would hearken back to my Neil DeGrasse Tyson quote: Conventional weapons are chemical. If you pour gasoline on the ground, ain't nothing going to grow there for a long, long time.
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On September 12 2013 23:28 Silvanel wrote: I am spechless at level indoctrination some of You are exhibiting. Like this "indiscriminating" thing so many You are talking about. Weapons are made for killing, theres no difference if You are killed by gas, gene engineered virus or conventional bullet. The end result is still the same, You are dead. Its a game of numbers, the question You need to ask Yourself is in which scenario more people die? If Assad gets bombed or not? And the answer is "WE HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA" thats the problem. I dont care about Assad holding chemical weapons. I care about people dying. We know for sure that "some" people will die if Assad gets bombed, more or less than if he is left alone? Theres no way to know. Bombing Assad might very well make the fate of Syrian people worse. I am all out for some scenario thats creates peace and ceases suffering in Syria. If that includes bombing him, all for it (too bad noone can think of proper solution). But dont bomb Syria to teach Assad a lesson, wtf sick reasoning is that?
All empathy is not equal and racism and religion have a lot to do with whether it's acceptable to action A to people B
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On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons.
OK So let's test depleted uranium...
Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 )
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On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Depleted uranium is not an explosive.
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On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Because those Sarin attacks were committed by terrorists and not the government.......
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Vladimir Putin's Letter to America+ Show Spoiler [Letter (it's long)] + Recent events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders. It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.
Relations between us have passed through different stages. We stood against each other during the Cold War. But we were also allies once, and defeated the Nazis together. The universal international organisation - the United Nations - was then established to prevent such devastation from ever happening again.
The United Nations' founders understood that decisions affecting war and peace should happen only by consensus, and with America's consent the veto by Security Council permanent members was enshrined in the United Nations Charter. The profound wisdom of this has underpinned the stability of international relations for decades.
No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorisation.
The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the Pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria's borders.
A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilise the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government.
The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organisations. This internal conflict, fuelled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today's complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos.
The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defence or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists. Reports that militants are preparing another attack - this time against Israel - cannot be ignored.
It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America's long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan "you're either with us or against us".
But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.
No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.
The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen non-proliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilised diplomatic and political settlement.
A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days. The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government's willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction.
Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
I welcome the president's interest in continuing the dialogue with Russia on Syria. We must work together to keep this hope alive, as we agreed to at the Group of 8 meeting in Lough Erne in Northern Ireland in June, and steer the discussion back toward negotiations.
If we can avoid force against Syria, this will improve the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen mutual trust. It will be our shared success and open the door to cooperation on other critical issues.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States' policy is "what makes America different. It's what makes us exceptional".
It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord's blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.
Good read though, i wonder if Putin is playing the peace keeper here for another reason than just being the nice guy and keeping countries from getting weapons of mass destruction citing defense as the reason. Or if he is being genuine xD Guess it is all a matter of opinion, but after reading that i can't help but agree with his points.
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Putin is doing this for one reason and one reason only; Putin. That doesn't invalidate his points though.
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Putin's letter requires context, A LOT of context. In fact, in terms of salt, you need a bucket full...
Here's one of my favourite analyses of it so far.
Edit: If anyone's interested, that's not a full analysis by any stretch of the imagination. I expect the letter to be analysed to bits before the week is over, though.
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On September 12 2013 23:42 Pandemona wrote:Vladimir Putin's Letter to America+ Show Spoiler [Letter (it's long)] + Recent events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders. It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.
Relations between us have passed through different stages. We stood against each other during the Cold War. But we were also allies once, and defeated the Nazis together. The universal international organisation - the United Nations - was then established to prevent such devastation from ever happening again.
The United Nations' founders understood that decisions affecting war and peace should happen only by consensus, and with America's consent the veto by Security Council permanent members was enshrined in the United Nations Charter. The profound wisdom of this has underpinned the stability of international relations for decades.
No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorisation.
The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the Pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria's borders.
A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilise the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government.
The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organisations. This internal conflict, fuelled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today's complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos.
The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defence or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists. Reports that militants are preparing another attack - this time against Israel - cannot be ignored.
It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America's long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan "you're either with us or against us".
But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.
No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.
The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen non-proliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilised diplomatic and political settlement.
A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days. The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government's willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction.
Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
I welcome the president's interest in continuing the dialogue with Russia on Syria. We must work together to keep this hope alive, as we agreed to at the Group of 8 meeting in Lough Erne in Northern Ireland in June, and steer the discussion back toward negotiations.
If we can avoid force against Syria, this will improve the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen mutual trust. It will be our shared success and open the door to cooperation on other critical issues.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States' policy is "what makes America different. It's what makes us exceptional".
It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord's blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.
Good read though, i wonder if Putin is playing the peace keeper here for another reason than just being the nice guy and keeping countries from getting weapons of mass destruction citing defense as the reason. Or if he is being genuine xD Guess it is all a matter of opinion, but after reading that i can't help but agree with his points.
Whatever his true agenda is, it doesn't matter much at this point. His statements are valid however
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On September 12 2013 23:38 Ettick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Depleted uranium is not an explosive.
It is pyrophoric, however. So once you shoot it, it sets on fire and all hell breaks loose.
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On September 12 2013 23:38 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Because those Sarin attacks were committed by terrorists and not the government.......
And at the moment there are as much evidence that the chemical weapons were used by the government as they were used by the rebels.
P.S. Ettick - depleted uranium was "used" w/ exploding bombs...
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Shouldn't all you guys worried about uses of white phosphorus, or radioactive shells or whatnot be in another thread, arguing for a convention on the prohibition of such weapons?
Saying that their use makes CW use ok, is as good as such statements always are - they are the adult equivalent of the sandbox cry: "but he did it too!"
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On September 12 2013 23:53 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:38 farvacola wrote:On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Because those Sarin attacks were committed by terrorists and not the government....... And at the moment there are as much evidence that the chemical weapons were used by the government as they were used by the rebels.P.S. Ettick - depleted uranium was "used" w/ exploding bombs...
No, there is considerably more evidence that Assad used CW. And the UN report that's about to be published will deepen that divide. Hell, even Putin doesn't want to collect CW from rebels...
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On September 12 2013 23:38 Ettick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Depleted uranium is not an explosive.
Also, please don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone who is not you is the same person. Just because you think that chemical weapons are bad does not mean that you think that depleted uranium shells are good. I'd think that there is a major group of people who dislike both a lot.
Personally, my opinion is that the less targetted and the more uncontrollable aftereffects a weapon has, the worse it is. That does not mean that i like war with more accurate and "cleaner" weapons. But a war in which soldiers kill other soldiers would be greatly preferable to a war in which both sides try to kill as many people on the other side as posssible. And since likes to be the good guy, that is actually an accomplishable goal, while stopping people from warring is not.
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On September 12 2013 23:42 Pandemona wrote:Vladimir Putin's Letter to America+ Show Spoiler [Letter (it's long)] + Recent events surrounding Syria have prompted me to speak directly to the American people and their political leaders. It is important to do so at a time of insufficient communication between our societies.
Relations between us have passed through different stages. We stood against each other during the Cold War. But we were also allies once, and defeated the Nazis together. The universal international organisation - the United Nations - was then established to prevent such devastation from ever happening again.
The United Nations' founders understood that decisions affecting war and peace should happen only by consensus, and with America's consent the veto by Security Council permanent members was enshrined in the United Nations Charter. The profound wisdom of this has underpinned the stability of international relations for decades.
No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage. This is possible if influential countries bypass the United Nations and take military action without Security Council authorisation.
The potential strike by the United States against Syria, despite strong opposition from many countries and major political and religious leaders, including the Pope, will result in more innocent victims and escalation, potentially spreading the conflict far beyond Syria's borders.
A strike would increase violence and unleash a new wave of terrorism. It could undermine multilateral efforts to resolve the Iranian nuclear problem and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and further destabilise the Middle East and North Africa. It could throw the entire system of international law and order out of balance.
Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government.
The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the opposition, as terrorist organisations. This internal conflict, fuelled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.
Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.
From the outset, Russia has advocated peaceful dialogue enabling Syrians to develop a compromise plan for their own future. We are not protecting the Syrian government, but international law. We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today's complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos.
The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defence or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.
No one doubts that poison gas was used in Syria. But there is every reason to believe it was used not by the Syrian army, but by opposition forces, to provoke intervention by their powerful foreign patrons, who would be siding with the fundamentalists. Reports that militants are preparing another attack - this time against Israel - cannot be ignored.
It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America's long-term interest? I doubt it. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force, cobbling coalitions together under the slogan "you're either with us or against us".
But force has proved ineffective and pointless. Afghanistan is reeling, and no one can say what will happen after international forces withdraw. Libya is divided into tribes and clans. In Iraq the civil war continues, with dozens killed each day. In the United States, many draw an analogy between Iraq and Syria, and ask why their government would want to repeat recent mistakes.
No matter how targeted the strikes or how sophisticated the weapons, civilian casualties are inevitable, including the elderly and children, whom the strikes are meant to protect.
The world reacts by asking: if you cannot count on international law, then you must find other ways to ensure your security. Thus a growing number of countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction. This is logical: if you have the bomb, no one will touch you. We are left with talk of the need to strengthen non-proliferation, when in reality this is being eroded.
We must stop using the language of force and return to the path of civilised diplomatic and political settlement.
A new opportunity to avoid military action has emerged in the past few days. The United States, Russia and all members of the international community must take advantage of the Syrian government's willingness to place its chemical arsenal under international control for subsequent destruction.
Judging by the statements of President Obama, the United States sees this as an alternative to military action.
I welcome the president's interest in continuing the dialogue with Russia on Syria. We must work together to keep this hope alive, as we agreed to at the Group of 8 meeting in Lough Erne in Northern Ireland in June, and steer the discussion back toward negotiations.
If we can avoid force against Syria, this will improve the atmosphere in international affairs and strengthen mutual trust. It will be our shared success and open the door to cooperation on other critical issues.
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States' policy is "what makes America different. It's what makes us exceptional".
It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord's blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.
Good read though, i wonder if Putin is playing the peace keeper here for another reason than just being the nice guy and keeping countries from getting weapons of mass destruction citing defense as the reason. Or if he is being genuine xD Guess it is all a matter of opinion, but after reading that i can't help but agree with his points.
Well rethorically you always portray yourself as the nice guy. But whether he's "the nice guy" or not doesn't mean he doesn't have some points.
One thing I was thinking though: if a deal to put Syria's chemical arsenal under international control goes through, how would that go about in practice? Imagine foreign troops stationing themselves on syrian soil in government areas. They'll essentially serve as stabilizers for government control of the area, considering that if there's a rebel offensive on their position, they'll be side by side with government armed forced protecting the chemical stockpiles. The irony of the situation will not be missed.
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On September 12 2013 23:51 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 23:38 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:36 BlueStar wrote:On September 12 2013 23:22 Ettick wrote:On September 12 2013 23:12 beg wrote: why does anyone actually think that chemical weapons are worse than explosive weapons? stop and think about it for a second. both are equally bad. there's absolutely nothing that makes an explosive weapon better. both kill people. both produce crippled people. both are terrible.
you know what's actually really bad? radioactive ammunition. you know who used that? yea you know it.
sorry, not trying to provoke unneccessarily. it's just the truth, guys. it really is.
User was warned for this post Explosive weapons are at least somewhat discriminate in who they kill and are not 100% guaranteed to kill or give permanent brain damage to whoever they hit. The same cannot be said chemical weapons. OK So let's test depleted uranium... Oh and btw every country in the world has chemical weapons. Why didn't anyone invade Japan when there were terrorism acts (WITH ZARIN) in Tokyo in 1995? ( http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=D8D81C69ECC8DF66AF56915E79A69610 ) Depleted uranium is not an explosive. It is pyrophoric, however. So once you shoot it, it sets on fire and all hell breaks loose. I'm pretty sure the fact that it's burning is the least of the worries for anything in the line of fire of a GAU-8.
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On September 12 2013 23:55 Ghanburighan wrote: Shouldn't all you guys worried about uses of white phosphorus, or radioactive shells or whatnot be in another thread, arguing for a convention on the prohibition of such weapons?
Saying that their use makes CW use ok, is as good as such statements always are - they are the adult equivalent of the sandbox cry: "but he did it too!"
there's already a un convention on such weapons. readily ignored by the same countries that were among those who provoked what you call the adult equivalent of "but he did it too!" with a "look what he did!".
of course they should be outright banned, but they're classified as conventional. there is no clear line to be drawn between conventional and chemical weapons when it comes to suffering or agony caused.
On September 12 2013 23:56 Ghanburighan wrote: No, there is considerably more evidence that Assad used CW. And the UN report that's about to be published will deepen that divide. Hell, even Putin doesn't want to collect CW from rebels...
to our knowledge there is actually still zero evidence on who is behind the ghouta attacks, the un report might actually provide some clarity in what went down and even point a finger. we will have to wait and see.
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My problem with the whole "chemical weapons" deal here is that it really seems to be a lynchpin in the idea of the US getting involved. We can't get involved without some sort of line being crossed - oh look! A line! How convenient!
From a tinfoil hat perspective, it would seem easy for a govt contractor with a lot to gain (Haliburton etc.) from another war to simply release the gas themselves. It was a pretty local, one-off incident yes? Couldn't you just pay someone in Assad's army a fair amount of money (I'd say $200k) to release a few gas grenades? Then bam, the govt drops a $65b contract on Haliburton, and the shareholder equity gets a nice bump. A few people at the top cash out a few shares for 8 figures, and the world keeps turning.
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Your first paragraph is way better than the second.
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