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On July 19 2011 17:35 pyro19 wrote: Batman > Marvel right now.. Everything related to Batman these days is so awesome be it the movies or the awesome Batman games.
In terms of quality, yes. The Dark Knight Rises is DC's saving grace from the failed Green Lantern to the scrapped Wonder Woman TV series. After the success of the Nolan Batman series, it will probably surpass the latest Harry Potter movie.
On July 19 2011 17:42 ven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 16:04 Velr wrote:On July 19 2011 07:22 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 07:19 Saicam wrote: omg!!!! this movie will be the biggest movie of summer 2012 I dunno, I think it might be a close race between The Avengers. I highly doubt that. The only other Superheroes thats are as famous as Batman (in Europe) is/are probably Superman and Spider Man AND Batman had 2 excellent prequels while The Avengers "prequels" varied between total trash (Fanta 4/Thor), "decent" (i liked the "new" Hulk) and not even revealed/not made for a eurpean/world marked in the first place (Captain America).. The Avengers? No one except "true" comic fans gives a rats ass about Hulk/Fanta 4/Thor and lolcaptainamericalol... Batman? EVERYONE knows Batman. The Dark Knight would probably win on hype alone even if it managed to be worse than Batman & Robin in the end. But it might actually be closer than you think. Iron Man was very successful, Captain America has a lot of potential to be as well and don't forget that most of Whedon's fan base will watch it no matter what.
I understand what that guy said and he's right to an extent, BUT with all the hype surrounding the past Marvel movies and leading up to The Avengers, it might be head to head with The Dark Knight Rises in the first week sales. Overall, I think The Dark Knight Rises will make more money in the end. I am just happy that we're getting both movies in the same year.
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On July 19 2011 17:52 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 17:35 pyro19 wrote: Batman > Marvel right now.. Everything related to Batman these days is so awesome be it the movies or the awesome Batman games. In terms of quality, yes. The Dark Knight Rises is DC's saving grace from the failed Green Lantern to the scrapped Wonder Woman TV series. After the success of the Nolan Batman series, it will probably surpass the latest Harry Potter movie. Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 17:42 ven wrote:On July 19 2011 16:04 Velr wrote:On July 19 2011 07:22 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 07:19 Saicam wrote: omg!!!! this movie will be the biggest movie of summer 2012 I dunno, I think it might be a close race between The Avengers. I highly doubt that. The only other Superheroes thats are as famous as Batman (in Europe) is/are probably Superman and Spider Man AND Batman had 2 excellent prequels while The Avengers "prequels" varied between total trash (Fanta 4/Thor), "decent" (i liked the "new" Hulk) and not even revealed/not made for a eurpean/world marked in the first place (Captain America).. The Avengers? No one except "true" comic fans gives a rats ass about Hulk/Fanta 4/Thor and lolcaptainamericalol... Batman? EVERYONE knows Batman. The Dark Knight would probably win on hype alone even if it managed to be worse than Batman & Robin in the end. But it might actually be closer than you think. Iron Man was very successful, Captain America has a lot of potential to be as well and don't forget that most of Whedon's fan base will watch it no matter what. I understand what that guy said and he's right to an extent, BUT with all the hype surrounding the past Marvel movies and leading up to The Avengers, it might be head to head with The Dark Knight Rises in the first week sales. Overall, I think The Dark Knight Rises will make more money in the end. I am just happy that we're getting both movies in the same year.
You just can't beat the universal knowledge of Batman to something like The avengers.
Batman has entered into the view of the masses. Everyone knows batman, just like superman. It's just a name that has gone beyond just comic books.
No ammount of marketing is ever going to make the avengers into a bigger name then batman, that kind of a reputation only happens over a many many years. Batman also has the upper hand in that the movies are known to be exceptional and people who are just looking for a good movie will seek it out aswell.
Batman is for everyone, the avengers is just for the fans and people that generally like super hero movies.
A big name and a director like Nolan. Even a big name like superman would have trouble beating that. A nothing name like the avengers just doesn't cut it.
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wow im so excited for this movie, though I don't think it will be as good as the dark knight ( which movie can nowaways lol) but will probably be more succesful, because of the hype.
oh yes, and anne hathaway as catwoman omg
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On July 20 2011 03:27 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 17:52 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 17:35 pyro19 wrote: Batman > Marvel right now.. Everything related to Batman these days is so awesome be it the movies or the awesome Batman games. In terms of quality, yes. The Dark Knight Rises is DC's saving grace from the failed Green Lantern to the scrapped Wonder Woman TV series. After the success of the Nolan Batman series, it will probably surpass the latest Harry Potter movie. On July 19 2011 17:42 ven wrote:On July 19 2011 16:04 Velr wrote:On July 19 2011 07:22 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 07:19 Saicam wrote: omg!!!! this movie will be the biggest movie of summer 2012 I dunno, I think it might be a close race between The Avengers. I highly doubt that. The only other Superheroes thats are as famous as Batman (in Europe) is/are probably Superman and Spider Man AND Batman had 2 excellent prequels while The Avengers "prequels" varied between total trash (Fanta 4/Thor), "decent" (i liked the "new" Hulk) and not even revealed/not made for a eurpean/world marked in the first place (Captain America).. The Avengers? No one except "true" comic fans gives a rats ass about Hulk/Fanta 4/Thor and lolcaptainamericalol... Batman? EVERYONE knows Batman. The Dark Knight would probably win on hype alone even if it managed to be worse than Batman & Robin in the end. But it might actually be closer than you think. Iron Man was very successful, Captain America has a lot of potential to be as well and don't forget that most of Whedon's fan base will watch it no matter what. I understand what that guy said and he's right to an extent, BUT with all the hype surrounding the past Marvel movies and leading up to The Avengers, it might be head to head with The Dark Knight Rises in the first week sales. Overall, I think The Dark Knight Rises will make more money in the end. I am just happy that we're getting both movies in the same year. You just can't beat the universal knowledge of Batman to something like The avengers. Batman has entered into the view of the masses. Everyone knows batman, just like superman. It's just a name that has gone beyond just comic books. No ammount of marketing is ever going to make the avengers into a bigger name then batman, that kind of a reputation only happens over a many many years. Batman also has the upper hand in that the movies are known to be exceptional and people who are just looking for a good movie will seek it out aswell. Batman is for everyone, the avengers is just for the fans and people that generally like super hero movies. A big name and a director like Nolan. Even a big name like superman would have trouble beating that. A nothing name like the avengers just doesn't cut it.
Yes, we know. You repeated yourself already. lol, it sounds as if you came off as defensive that I brought up The Avengers in this thread. It is true that Batman is the most well known since DC had the upper hand from the start of the original comics and such.
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anne hathaway is annoying as shit. + Show Spoiler +IIRC she dies in batman, like, in the cartoon, comics or in some previous movie. I hope she dies in this movie too. that'd be great. *catwoman, that is. not anne hathaway, sadly.
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Hopefully this movie isnt a bloated mess like the second movie. That was like one of the best movies ever bogged down by an hour + of unnecessary and pretentious bullshit.
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Am i the only one terrified by the fact that Anne Hathaway is going to be catwoman?
Seriously, how do they cast these roles?
Maybe its just me... but imo her last...career of movies has all been pretty bad acting/movies.
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On July 20 2011 06:19 DannyJ wrote: Hopefully this movie isnt a bloated mess like the second movie. That was like one of the best movies ever bogged down by an hour + of unnecessary and pretentious bullshit. i have seen many people label The Dark Knight as "pretentious". Luckily youre the first one who isnt being pretentious about it
Can you explain to me how it was pretentious? No one else gave me a civilized answer
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On July 20 2011 06:13 zoLo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 03:27 zalz wrote:On July 19 2011 17:52 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 17:35 pyro19 wrote: Batman > Marvel right now.. Everything related to Batman these days is so awesome be it the movies or the awesome Batman games. In terms of quality, yes. The Dark Knight Rises is DC's saving grace from the failed Green Lantern to the scrapped Wonder Woman TV series. After the success of the Nolan Batman series, it will probably surpass the latest Harry Potter movie. On July 19 2011 17:42 ven wrote:On July 19 2011 16:04 Velr wrote:On July 19 2011 07:22 zoLo wrote:On July 19 2011 07:19 Saicam wrote: omg!!!! this movie will be the biggest movie of summer 2012 I dunno, I think it might be a close race between The Avengers. I highly doubt that. The only other Superheroes thats are as famous as Batman (in Europe) is/are probably Superman and Spider Man AND Batman had 2 excellent prequels while The Avengers "prequels" varied between total trash (Fanta 4/Thor), "decent" (i liked the "new" Hulk) and not even revealed/not made for a eurpean/world marked in the first place (Captain America).. The Avengers? No one except "true" comic fans gives a rats ass about Hulk/Fanta 4/Thor and lolcaptainamericalol... Batman? EVERYONE knows Batman. The Dark Knight would probably win on hype alone even if it managed to be worse than Batman & Robin in the end. But it might actually be closer than you think. Iron Man was very successful, Captain America has a lot of potential to be as well and don't forget that most of Whedon's fan base will watch it no matter what. I understand what that guy said and he's right to an extent, BUT with all the hype surrounding the past Marvel movies and leading up to The Avengers, it might be head to head with The Dark Knight Rises in the first week sales. Overall, I think The Dark Knight Rises will make more money in the end. I am just happy that we're getting both movies in the same year. You just can't beat the universal knowledge of Batman to something like The avengers. Batman has entered into the view of the masses. Everyone knows batman, just like superman. It's just a name that has gone beyond just comic books. No ammount of marketing is ever going to make the avengers into a bigger name then batman, that kind of a reputation only happens over a many many years. Batman also has the upper hand in that the movies are known to be exceptional and people who are just looking for a good movie will seek it out aswell. Batman is for everyone, the avengers is just for the fans and people that generally like super hero movies. A big name and a director like Nolan. Even a big name like superman would have trouble beating that. A nothing name like the avengers just doesn't cut it. Yes, we know. You repeated yourself already. lol, it sounds as if you came off as defensive that I brought up The Avengers in this thread. It is true that Batman is the most well known since DC had the upper hand from the start of the original comics and such.
I repeat myself with the first post on the subject? Most impressive.
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TDK was a great story because its about a character making a sacrifice. Batman chooses to become hated and hunted by the city so that they can have their faith in Harvey Dent rewarded.
To a lot of people thats what ultimately makes a story great, characters you identify with making choices and overcoming challenges. Doesnt need to be any commentary on terrorism or crime or human nature or whatever for it to be worthwhile, though the great thing about TDK is that stuff is there for people who want it.
I think a lot of people saw something in the Joker that they recognized ie. pure evil, anarchy, darkness, hence people with no familiarity with the idea of Batman had something they could identify with, a fear of that evil. My parents for example were drawn in 'cause they found the Joker so disturbing, they didnt get any of the stuff about Batmans purpose, you probably need some familiarity with the character to truly appreciate that.
I for one thought the script was excellent and really well thought out. Every event leads so smoothly and logically into the next. Batman, the Joker and Harvey Dent are all used really well as characters. Only thing I think they didnt pull off convincingly enough was Harvey Dents switch into Two-Face. There was also a lot of fluff they could've gotten rid of that would've allowed them to focus more on the central thread of the story and get it across better.
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On July 20 2011 15:42 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 06:19 DannyJ wrote: Hopefully this movie isnt a bloated mess like the second movie. That was like one of the best movies ever bogged down by an hour + of unnecessary and pretentious bullshit. i have seen many people label The Dark Knight as "pretentious". Luckily youre the first one who isnt being pretentious about it Can you explain to me how it was pretentious? No one else gave me a civilized answer Although the question wasn't directed at me, I'd like to give it a try:
First of all, TDK was overall a good movie in my book, and easily one of the best in the superhero genre. It's constellation in general, and especially the cast, was decent to excellent. The movie is lacking only in regard to plot, characterization, and dialogue, or to put it more broadly, dramaturgy.
+ Show Spoiler +For example, the whole purpose of the omniscience machine (apart from being some kind of completely unnecessary Deus ex machina to solve a problem that should have been solvable by "the world's greatest detective" via regular investigation) seems to be Lucius Fox's monologue on responsibility and power... after which he proceeds to use the omniscience machine against his better judgement.
The character development - for the lack of a more pejorative term - of Harvey Dent makes no sense. His decision to pretend to be Batman is a big surprise to everybody, but only because he did not bother to tell them about it, for which there was absolutely no reason (apart from not telling the audience in order to create suspense). Likewise, the only reason fo his heel turn from "white knight" to villain seems to be that he must become Two-Face.
The Joker's plans border on the theoretically impossible, and are, without a doubt, practically impossible to pull off using the resources at his disposal. When he eventually reveals his overarching goal, to corrupt Harvey Dent, everybody fails to see that Dent could easily have died. So "do nothing" would have been a perfect countermeasure to combat the Joker.
In the end, Batman decides to take the blame for Dent's murders... again, only for the sake of doing justice to the movie's title. It would have been completely fine to just label the murders as unsolved, or to blame the Joker, or whatever.
Noteably, most of these deficits are in fact minor (at least in my eyes), and had the movie been advertised as "just another superhero flick", it wouldn't have mattered at all. But within the scope of that marketing hype after Ledger's death, TDK was presented as a deep, intelligent movie... but then it has to be measured by the standards of such a movie, and it cannot afford such obvious plot holes, heel turns, etc.
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On July 20 2011 23:02 Poffel wrote:Likewise, the only reason fo his heel turn from "white knight" to villain seems to be that he must become Two-Face.
After being deformed and losing his fiance he blamed her death on Gordon who did nothing about the corrupt officers in his unit and Batman who he thinks should have saved Rachel (Dent was never made aware that Joker tricked Batman into saving Dent instead of Rachel). When the good guys he believed in failed him in his eyes he became a bad guy. That and he went through some pretty serious trauma. Seems to be sufficient reason for him to want to go out and get revenge.
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he didnt really become a "bad guy" he was just pushed over the edge and became a little crazy due to immense grief. what i really enjoyed is how the use of his coin throughout the movie shows his worldview at the beginning he still believe that one could make a difference that you can decide your own fate, by the end he doesnt believe in anything anymore except chance. quite brilliant.
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On July 20 2011 23:02 Poffel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 15:42 Supamang wrote:On July 20 2011 06:19 DannyJ wrote: Hopefully this movie isnt a bloated mess like the second movie. That was like one of the best movies ever bogged down by an hour + of unnecessary and pretentious bullshit. i have seen many people label The Dark Knight as "pretentious". Luckily youre the first one who isnt being pretentious about it Can you explain to me how it was pretentious? No one else gave me a civilized answer Although the question wasn't directed at me, I'd like to give it a try: First of all, TDK was overall a good movie in my book, and easily one of the best in the superhero genre. It's constellation in general, and especially the cast, was decent to excellent. The movie is lacking only in regard to plot, characterization, and dialogue, or to put it more broadly, dramaturgy. + Show Spoiler +For example, the whole purpose of the omniscience machine (apart from being some kind of completely unnecessary Deus ex machina to solve a problem that should have been solvable by "the world's greatest detective" via regular investigation) seems to be Lucius Fox's monologue on responsibility and power... after which he proceeds to use the omniscience machine against his better judgement.
The character development - for the lack of a more pejorative term - of Harvey Dent makes no sense. His decision to pretend to be Batman is a big surprise to everybody, but only because he did not bother to tell them about it, for which there was absolutely no reason (apart from not telling the audience in order to create suspense). Likewise, the only reason fo his heel turn from "white knight" to villain seems to be that he must become Two-Face.
The Joker's plans border on the theoretically impossible, and are, without a doubt, practically impossible to pull off using the resources at his disposal. When he eventually reveals his overarching goal, to corrupt Harvey Dent, everybody fails to see that Dent could easily have died. So "do nothing" would have been a perfect countermeasure to combat the Joker.
In the end, Batman decides to take the blame for Dent's murders... again, only for the sake of doing justice to the movie's title. It would have been completely fine to just label the murders as unsolved, or to blame the Joker, or whatever. Noteably, most of these deficits are in fact minor (at least in my eyes), and had the movie been advertised as "just another superhero flick", it wouldn't have mattered at all. But within the scope of that marketing hype after Ledger's death, TDK was presented as a deep, intelligent movie... but then it has to be measured by the standards of such a movie, and it cannot afford such obvious plot holes, heel turns, etc. Ok that definitely makes sense, thanks. Basically what you and others are saying is that the movie took itself too seriously and put itself above other superhero films when it really wasnt, am I right?
Though your logic makes sense to me as to the overall reason why you found TDK to be pretentious, I do disagree with a lot of what you labeled as plot holes in the spoiler of your post.
+ Show Spoiler +First of all, the omniscience machine wasnt a deus ex machina. They were given very, very little time to find the Joker. The only way to be sure to stop 2 boat loads of people blowing up within the time limit would be to use the machine. Maybe someone could have figured it out, but in that situation would you have taken that chance with hundreds of people's lives on the line? That was the utilitarian dilemma the movie makers wanted the audience to think about
Harvey Dent telling people that he was going to pretend to be Batman would have completely ruined everything. He wanted to give the people of Gotham one last chance to demonstrate courage in the face of terror. The people were cowardly, willing to condemn a hero they took for granted because they were scared for their own safety. Dent gave them one last chance at the press conference, but in the end they still wanted Batman's head on a platter. Therefore, he had to spring it on them at the last second. He didnt tell the people he cared about because they would have ruined his cover.
As for the fall of Harvey Dent, he was a proactive guy and firmly believed that one could "make his own luck." Unfortunately for him, he was eventually put into a situation where nothing he would do could help save Rachel. He learned that there are times that you just get screwed by your circumstances and his circumstances included being betrayed by officers he wanted to investigate in the first place. This hard lesson he learned by losing his wife-to-be combined with Gordon's negligence about those officers was enough to turn him from an optimistic go-getter into a pessimistic man looking for revenge.
We dont know what the Joker's resources are, but as the movie progress he gained a lot. The beginning heist didnt require too many resources. Apart from some equipment, he just had to "promise" a bunch of patsies a load of money and take em out one by one. He got away with completely cleaning out a mob bank, which would no doubt give him a shit load of cash. As he gained more and more followers as well, it becomes more believable that he could pull off the things he plans. Gotham is a corrupt city, he could probably very far purely with money at his disposal.
I dont understand the second part of that paragraph about "doing nothing", but Ill do my best. Batman was the only person to learn about Joker wanting to corrupt Dent, so there is no everybody. If he did nothing, Gordons entire family might have died. He might have run around in the city, revealing to everyone that he was responsible for murder. Those actions would undo the years of progress he created. Doing nothing would have ended in disaster.
Marking the murders as "unsolved" isnt a solution. They would only be marked as "unsolved" if they tried an investigation and couldnt solve it. An investigation would have revealed that the murders Dent committed took place while the Joker was pulling the whole Boat Explosion trick, meaning it would be far less likely that the Joker was behind them. Sure, he coulda sent some henchmen, but an investigation would have probably tied connections between the victims and Dent. They could do a coverup or shift the blame, but that would be shaky. Instead, everyone hated Batman already so as shaky as the story would be for Batman committing Dent's murders, the public would have very readily accepted it.
Furthermore, Gordon called for the police to make a perimeter around the area where he and his family were being held by Dent. He didnt tell them what the situation was though. When the police were finally allowed in, they would find their beloved white knight Dent dead and Gordon's family shaken. That would immediately call attention to Dent. Batman had to take the blame for Dent's "murder" and thus he woulda been the prime candidate to take the blame for all the murders Dent committed as well
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quote firrst of all, TDK was overall a good movie in my book, and easily one of the best in the superhero genre. It's constellation in general, and especially the cast, was decent to excellent. The movie is lacking only in regard to plot, characterization, and dialogue,
at the latest you rendered your opinion as invalid and not worth continuing to read at the word characterization in context with the word lacking.
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Canada5155 Posts
On July 20 2011 15:40 MaestroSC wrote: Am i the only one terrified by the fact that Anne Hathaway is going to be catwoman?
Seriously, how do they cast these roles?
Maybe its just me... but imo her last...career of movies has all been pretty bad acting/movies.
Considering this was my reaction when they casted Heath Ledger... I think I trust Nolan and company enough to know what they're doing.
They're clearly fans of the franchise and wouldn't fuck it up; she must have blown them away in auditions.
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The Dark Knight is my second favorite movie. EVERYTHING about that movie is amazing, from the acting to the plot to the action to the dialogue. I have very high hopes for the latest one in the series, despite its retarded name.
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On July 20 2011 23:02 Poffel wrote: In the end, Batman decides to take the blame for Dent's murders... again, only for the sake of doing justice to the movie's title. It would have been completely fine to just label the murders as unsolved, or to blame the Joker, or whatever.
Beside the point, but the reasons Batman took the blame for the deaths at the end of TDK were those provided by the Sal Maroni character. His secret was out - he doesn't kill. By contrast, the Joker was unpredictable, lethal, and merciless. The criminals were more afraid of not aligning themselves with the Joker than they were of Batman. In essence, he lost some of his mystery and the 'power' he held over the city's criminals. He took the blame because in order to keep fighting the good fight, he needed to be seen as a little more Joker and a little less boy scout.
Again, beside the point, but I thought I'd explain why they did that.
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