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On January 26 2011 02:51 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 02:25 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 01:50 darmousseh wrote:On January 26 2011 01:40 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 01:36 darmousseh wrote:On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother. Eh, my whole family is full of immigrants and they are all democrats without knowing why. It goes both ways. I'm libertarian. Are they registered democrats? Are you a registered libertarian? I don't remember what i'm registered. I last registered republican so I could vote for ron paul in the primaries, but then I think I re-registered libertarian. Yes, the ones that are US citizens (like 50%) are all registered democrats. I see. How strongly are you convinced of the benefits of deregulation? Like I said before, demand for medical care is inelastic. While it is true that you have saved a good deal of money forgoing health insurance, what if you were stricken with early-stage lymphoma today? Pharmaceutical companies all sink a ridiculous amount of money into R&D and so the industry has a prohibitively high barrier of entry. Surgery is the definitive high-skilled job requiring a decade of training and cost. You are dying; you will pay anything to be treated and the doctors and pharmaceutical companies all know this. Sovereign nations know this as well. This why citizens of any country have always demanded healthcare along with education and infrastructure as services the free-market simply cannot provide responsibly. You are bringing up examples of isolated incidents. Here are some counter examples. Demand for medical care is not inelastic. Here's an article on it http://healthcare-economist.com/2009/07/22/is-health-care-demand-elastic/The best example is that a ton of people don't have health insurance. The fact that people are willing to not buy health insurance is definitely a sign of it's elasticity. Anyway, health care used to be unregulated. It was cheap, health care is now regulated, it is expensive. In many third world countries, health care can be purchased for a fraction of the cost as those countries do not have major corporate insurance companies nor regulated health care, just doctors treating patients. Obviously in a first world country prices will be higher (due to wages and demand for higher quality treatment), but in every example i've ever seen, deregulation always leads to lower prices. The only purpose of regulation is to stop some sort of behaviour or discourage it. There has never been any regulation which has helped the economy. For pharmaceutical companies, we should just allow foreign companies to sell medicine in the US, it would become a lot cheaper. If the government truly wants to lower the price of insurance at the expense of taxpayers, they can simply offer a tax credit to insurance companies. Something like 50% of revenues earned from insurance are not taxed. That, along with legislation to promote competition, will lower the rate of health insurance to the point where it's affordable for everyone with a job. Counties and states can take care of the poor like they already do.
Just finished reading the article.
Let me refine my point by saying that health care is elastic until the point at which people become sick. At that point it becomes practically inelastic - and the implications still stand.
Health care used to be cheaper in the past, but health care was also worse in the past. Much of the increase in expense has been on end-of-life treatment advances whose long-term social benefits are admittedly dubious. The prevalence of malpractice lawsuits and the modern litigation-happy sentiment has had a significant effect as well.
It is a mistake predict the fall of health care costs with complete deregulation without considering those prevalent factors.
More to the point, even if it is cheaper, it is may still not be worth the social cost.
Riddle me this: Why would an insurance company provide coverage for people with preexisting conditions?
How would the free market take care of those who would undoubtedly be rejected by insurance companies simply practicing smart business policy?
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What I love best is when people say that the government should "keep its hands off my health care!" what they are really saying is that they would much rather have their healthcare in the hands of a large, for profit, evil, disingenuous (how J stewart describes fox news but it works here too), organization hellbent on increasing profits.
The entire system is contradictory: the better healthcare people get with insurance companies the WORSE it is for that company's shareholders. The more claims that get denied the BETTER it is for the company's shareholders. It makes no sense at all.
The healthcare bill to me seemed like a proud noble warrior marching off into battle, but as he's walking to this battle, he walks through a swamp where alligators chew off his foot, then some bandits bludgeon him with rocks and clubs, he loses all his money and when he shows up for battle hes a quivering shell of a man with no armor or money or weapons or feet. Just replace this man with the healthcare bill and the alligators and bandits with republicans.
The system as it is now is absolutely ridiculous. I work at a health insurance company (possibly the largest in America in fact) and the amount of money wasted on TOTAL BULLSHIT is mind boggling.
The situation has to change. Republicans want nothing to happen. That way, more people will go into debt-hell-pits of despair with one accidental emergency, and insurers can keep rising rates. It's awesome because health insurers do not give a flying monkeys ass about pricing people out of their market, as long as the people they DO insure give them a profit, 99 percent of America could be without health insurance and they would be absolutely fine with it as long as the other 1 percent pays their premiums.
free market cannot responsibly provide health care.
If our current situation illustrates this at all, no... no free market can provide responsible healthcare. GREED is more powerful than the CEOs conscience.
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You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky.
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One of the biggest problems with Obamacare is that it makes insurance companies unprofitable by forcing them to insure people with preexisting conditions
LOL covering people with pre-existing conditions (aka your fucking diabetic grandmother) is a PROBLEM?
Jesus christ. You can either have half the country getting fucked by pre-existing conditions or you can mandate everyone has to have health insurance at all times so they cannot just apply when something is wrong. There is no middle ground.
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On January 26 2011 03:20 DamnCats wrote:What I love best is when people say that the government should "keep its hands off my health care!" what they are really saying is that they would much rather have their healthcare in the hands of a large, for profit, evil, disingenuous (how J stewart describes fox news but it works here too), organization hellbent on increasing profits. The entire system is contradictory: the better healthcare people get with insurance companies the WORSE it is for that company's shareholders. The more claims that get denied the BETTER it is for the company's shareholders. It makes no sense at all. The healthcare bill to me seemed like a proud noble warrior marching off into battle, but as he's walking to this battle, he walks through a swamp where alligators chew off his foot, then some bandits bludgeon him with rocks and clubs, he loses all his money and when he shows up for battle hes a quivering shell of a man with no armor or money or weapons or feet. Just replace this man with the healthcare bill and the alligators and bandits with republicans. The system as it is now is absolutely ridiculous. I work at a health insurance company (possibly the largest in America in fact) and the amount of money wasted on TOTAL BULLSHIT is mind boggling. The situation has to change. Republicans want nothing to happen. That way, more people will go into debt-hell-pits of despair with one accidental emergency, and insurers can keep rising rates. It's awesome because health insurers do not give a flying monkeys ass about pricing people out of their market, as long as the people they DO insure give them a profit, 99 percent of America could be without health insurance and they would be absolutely fine with it as long as the other 1 percent pays their premiums. If our current situation illustrates this at all, no... no free market can provide responsible healthcare. GREED is more powerful than the CEOs conscience.
Try running a medical office. The government is all over healthcare and has been for a long time. Red tape everywhere. There is not one single action that happens in a medical office that does not have to follow government guidelines. Oh and on top of having to feed that fat insurance middle man, doctors have to hire extra staff just to deal with the insurance companies. You'd have to be a moron to thing this will lower costs. Meanwhile the american people go to a bunch of bureaucrats to help make it better, the same bureaucrats who fucked it up in the first place, instead of the doctors who actually know what the fuck they're doing.
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On January 26 2011 03:16 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time. Yeah because a government with a trillion dollar deficit is obviously going to be responsible and reform. What people don't understand is that when you see a big problem, the government doesn't give a flying fuck, your problem is a benefit for them. Health care "reform" will be nothing more than a power grab to further ensure they will remain in control, that is what they do. They use the power to further insure and expand their power. They look after their own interests. People are down on the free market (which does not exist) because they don't like the thought of people and corporations greedily pursuing their own interests...yet they have this nonsensical idea that the government will not pursue things with the same greed? Why? They are all human, you can't change this nature by calling it something else and trusting some bozos in a suit. All it does is give them more money and more power which leads to more ability to be greedy and consume.
Are you capable of nuance at all?
The world is not black and white. Military spending and lack of government oversight with regard to the financial sector has been the major source of the US budget deficit. Social Security is another factor as well.
All of these issues require honest discussion and understanding. Both of which seem foreign to you.
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On January 26 2011 03:25 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:16 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time. Yeah because a government with a trillion dollar deficit is obviously going to be responsible and reform. What people don't understand is that when you see a big problem, the government doesn't give a flying fuck, your problem is a benefit for them. Health care "reform" will be nothing more than a power grab to further ensure they will remain in control, that is what they do. They use the power to further insure and expand their power. They look after their own interests. People are down on the free market (which does not exist) because they don't like the thought of people and corporations greedily pursuing their own interests...yet they have this nonsensical idea that the government will not pursue things with the same greed? Why? They are all human, you can't change this nature by calling it something else and trusting some bozos in a suit. All it does is give them more money and more power which leads to more ability to be greedy and consume. Are you capable of nuance at all? The world is not black and white. Military spending and lack of government oversight with regard to the financial sector has been the major source of the US budget deficit. Social Security is another factor as well. All of these issues require honest discussion and understanding. Both of which seem foreign to you.
No you are the one who lacks understanding, you don't understand that the deficit is good for them, you don't understand that they like how everything has gone. You're mind is just filled with propaganda, like the whole country.
You think discussion will make the problem go away? lol
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On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky.
Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance?
Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend.
Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment.
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On January 26 2011 03:24 DamnCats wrote:Show nested quote +One of the biggest problems with Obamacare is that it makes insurance companies unprofitable by forcing them to insure people with preexisting conditions LOL covering people with pre-existing conditions (aka your fucking diabetic grandmother) is a PROBLEM? Jesus christ. You can either have half the country getting fucked by pre-existing conditions or you can mandate everyone has to have health insurance at all times so they cannot just apply when something is wrong. There is no middle ground.
From an economic point of view, forcing PRIVATE INSURERS (ie companies) to take on increased costs is a big problem. What would you do if you, as a business owner, were told by the government that you were going to be forced to eat a bunch of costs that drastically reduce your profitability (if not eliminate it entirely)?
Your post is typical of the whole problem with the health care debate. Too many people get wrapped up in emotions and the "feel good" intentions without thinking about what actually is economically feasible. It's a very small-minded approach to the debate.
Any reform of healthcare necessarily requires sacrifices. Right now, a lot of people don't fully understand what Obamacare sacrificed, yet more and more are figuring it out and discovering that they don't like it.
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On January 26 2011 03:28 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:25 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:16 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time. Yeah because a government with a trillion dollar deficit is obviously going to be responsible and reform. What people don't understand is that when you see a big problem, the government doesn't give a flying fuck, your problem is a benefit for them. Health care "reform" will be nothing more than a power grab to further ensure they will remain in control, that is what they do. They use the power to further insure and expand their power. They look after their own interests. People are down on the free market (which does not exist) because they don't like the thought of people and corporations greedily pursuing their own interests...yet they have this nonsensical idea that the government will not pursue things with the same greed? Why? They are all human, you can't change this nature by calling it something else and trusting some bozos in a suit. All it does is give them more money and more power which leads to more ability to be greedy and consume. Are you capable of nuance at all? The world is not black and white. Military spending and lack of government oversight with regard to the financial sector has been the major source of the US budget deficit. Social Security is another factor as well. All of these issues require honest discussion and understanding. Both of which seem foreign to you. No you are the one who lacks understanding, you don't understand that the deficit is good for them, you don't understand that they like how everything has gone. You're mind is just filled with propaganda, like the whole country. You think discussion will make the problem go away? lol
You think what you're doing is helping people understand the issue at all?
Your entire ideology is self-defeating. You rail on about how those in power are taking advantage of the public's ignorance through propaganda, yet you belittle the value of honest debate.
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On January 26 2011 03:30 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky. Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance? Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend. Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment.
Yeah I have car insurance to save me from the risk of getting my car towed and going to jail. You have no idea how our financial system works.
It's pretty simple.
You have a doctor, you have a patient.
Which costs less overall?
Patient pays doctor?
Or patient pays insurance company, doctor pays business staff, business staff negotiates with insurance company so doctor can get paid. Doctor has to charge enough to cover his business staff salary. Insurance company has to charge enough to cover their massive bureaucracy.
The middle man never lowers cost.
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On January 26 2011 03:36 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 03:25 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:16 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time. Yeah because a government with a trillion dollar deficit is obviously going to be responsible and reform. What people don't understand is that when you see a big problem, the government doesn't give a flying fuck, your problem is a benefit for them. Health care "reform" will be nothing more than a power grab to further ensure they will remain in control, that is what they do. They use the power to further insure and expand their power. They look after their own interests. People are down on the free market (which does not exist) because they don't like the thought of people and corporations greedily pursuing their own interests...yet they have this nonsensical idea that the government will not pursue things with the same greed? Why? They are all human, you can't change this nature by calling it something else and trusting some bozos in a suit. All it does is give them more money and more power which leads to more ability to be greedy and consume. Are you capable of nuance at all? The world is not black and white. Military spending and lack of government oversight with regard to the financial sector has been the major source of the US budget deficit. Social Security is another factor as well. All of these issues require honest discussion and understanding. Both of which seem foreign to you. No you are the one who lacks understanding, you don't understand that the deficit is good for them, you don't understand that they like how everything has gone. You're mind is just filled with propaganda, like the whole country. You think discussion will make the problem go away? lol You think what you're doing is helping people understand the issue at all? Your entire ideology is self-defeating. You rail on about how those in power are taking advantage of the public's ignorance through propaganda, yet you belittle the value of honest debate.
I don't have time to unwind your lifetime of propaganda, you have to put in some effort.
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From an economic point of view, forcing PRIVATE INSURERS (ie companies) to take on increased costs is a big problem. What would you do if you, as a business owner, were told by the government that you were going to be forced to eat a bunch of costs that drastically reduce your profitability (if not eliminate it entirely)?
Increased costs, yes... but mandating people to get health insurance also.. increases subscribers (aka profits?) as to whether it's balanced out I have no idea that might be doubtful though considering how many people are currently fucked out of the system with a pre-existing condition.
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On January 26 2011 03:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:24 DamnCats wrote:One of the biggest problems with Obamacare is that it makes insurance companies unprofitable by forcing them to insure people with preexisting conditions LOL covering people with pre-existing conditions (aka your fucking diabetic grandmother) is a PROBLEM? Jesus christ. You can either have half the country getting fucked by pre-existing conditions or you can mandate everyone has to have health insurance at all times so they cannot just apply when something is wrong. There is no middle ground. From an economic point of view, forcing PRIVATE INSURERS (ie companies) to take on increased costs is a big problem. What would you do if you, as a business owner, were told by the government that you were going to be forced to eat a bunch of costs that drastically reduce your profitability (if not eliminate it entirely)? Your post is typical of the whole problem with the health care debate. Too many people get wrapped up in emotions and the "feel good" intentions without thinking about what actually is economically feasible. It's a very small-minded approach to the debate. Any reform of healthcare necessarily requires sacrifices. Right now, a lot of people don't fully understand what Obamacare sacrificed, yet more and more are figuring it out and discovering that they don't like it.
Ideally is one or the other. Either federal health coverage expands enough to offer coverage for any citizen or stricter regulations must be placed on private insurers. The case of both at once is better than none at all in my mind.
Super ideally government health care becomes good enough and managed well enough to run all private insurers out of business. Theoretically speaking, due to the fact that the federal healthcare is capable of running at a loss, I don't see why legitimate reform would not see the end of private insurance.
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You can actually get pretty cheap healthcare just by negotiating with a doctor and telling him you will pay cash up front, because they don't have to use their staff's time just to get paid, and every insurance claim is a sizable risk for the doctor. But the majority of people don't even think to try this because they are living off debt and have no cash, and are too brainwashed.
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United States5162 Posts
On January 26 2011 03:37 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:36 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:28 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 03:25 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:16 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time. Yeah because a government with a trillion dollar deficit is obviously going to be responsible and reform. What people don't understand is that when you see a big problem, the government doesn't give a flying fuck, your problem is a benefit for them. Health care "reform" will be nothing more than a power grab to further ensure they will remain in control, that is what they do. They use the power to further insure and expand their power. They look after their own interests. People are down on the free market (which does not exist) because they don't like the thought of people and corporations greedily pursuing their own interests...yet they have this nonsensical idea that the government will not pursue things with the same greed? Why? They are all human, you can't change this nature by calling it something else and trusting some bozos in a suit. All it does is give them more money and more power which leads to more ability to be greedy and consume. Are you capable of nuance at all? The world is not black and white. Military spending and lack of government oversight with regard to the financial sector has been the major source of the US budget deficit. Social Security is another factor as well. All of these issues require honest discussion and understanding. Both of which seem foreign to you. No you are the one who lacks understanding, you don't understand that the deficit is good for them, you don't understand that they like how everything has gone. You're mind is just filled with propaganda, like the whole country. You think discussion will make the problem go away? lol You think what you're doing is helping people understand the issue at all? Your entire ideology is self-defeating. You rail on about how those in power are taking advantage of the public's ignorance through propaganda, yet you belittle the value of honest debate. I don't have time to unwind your lifetime of propaganda, you have to put in some effort.
Dude, you look like you're full or crap. If you have some crazy views that obviously aren't going to be easily accepted, you better do a damn good job making a convincing argument. Posts like that simply make you look like a troll.
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Or patient pays insurance company, doctor pays business staff, business staff negotiates with insurance company so doctor can get paid. Doctor has to charge enough to cover his business staff salary. Insurance company has to charge enough to cover their massive bureaucracy.
The middle man never lowers cost.
This is so true. My job is basically an example of worthless red tape bullshit getting paid way more then I should off the backs of denied claims and pissed off patients and doctors. At least I'm not in some fantasy land like the rest of the goddamn people I work with about how much they "help the community" and "act ethically". Yea, denying little timmy with leukemia for pre-existing is reeeaaal ethical, you fucks.
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On January 26 2011 03:30 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky. Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance? Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend. Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment.
QED:
Firstly:
Insurance companies have people working at them who have jobs, share holders who make money, CEOs who get obscene bonuses. Where does this money come from? The extra % that insurance companies charge you to manage your own risk.
This increases the cost to people who wish to have healthcare.
I feel really sorry for people who would ever shed a tear for insurance companies.
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On January 26 2011 03:36 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:30 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky. Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance? Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend. Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment. Yeah I have car insurance to save me from the risk of getting my car towed and going to jail. You have no idea how our financial system works. It's pretty simple. You have a doctor, you have a patient. Which costs less overall? Patient pays doctor? Or patient pays insurance company, doctor pays business staff, business staff negotiates with insurance company so doctor can get paid. Doctor has to charge enough to cover his business staff salary. Insurance company has to charge enough to cover their massive bureaucracy. The middle man never lowers cost.
Yup because dead men never pay :D
But can you incur the 15k cost to pay for your medical treatment in a timely manner like an insurance company can? a hospital can't rack up debt treating patients who only slowly pay them back, if they did that they would have to limit the number and the quality of people they can see else the hospital would go defunct. In other-words i'm in-favor of a single payer.
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im so glad i live in europe!
I'm from and live in Portugal and we might have one of the worse health systems in europe and we might even be a 3rd world country for some americans but here if i brake a leg, have aids, have whatever the cancer or just have flu i can go to a hospital or health center and pay not more then 5$ to be inspected by a doctor!
A broken leg would cost me 10$ and i wouldn't pay more for hospitalization etc..
I do have a health insurance but that's because i want a quicker place to go, more confort etc.. but health system actually works here and people don't worry about that.
BTW i can get the same thing in every european country!
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EPT
