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On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family.
Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments...
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I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother.
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The government just fucks everything up, what else did you expect? They create nothing, only steal and destroy.
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On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments...
No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free.
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On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother.
Maybe if we have better schools we could change that...oh wait, the government runs that too. Nevermind.
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oh trust me, we make a ton of money
your blood tests that cost $50?
i can do 80 from a $40 kit, and if i put the kit together myself, itd cost me $20
DNA test for a baby? total cost of consumed supplies is about $10
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On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother.
So what's your point? I grew up in Northern California, and all the fools there simply voted for their political party of choice (ie Democrats) in every election without really thinking about the policies of the politicians whom they were electing. Last I checked, California isn't doing so hot right now.
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To all the europeans talking about "free" health care, aren't you still paying for it in your taxes whether you want to or not?
Also you guys need to remember that the US government does not work like other nation's governments and I'm not just talking politically. If the gov't had full control of healthcare they'd still run it waaay worse than any of the good european nations. I'm pro health care reform but I can understand the fears that some doubters have. Our government does not function anywhere near efficiently.
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If Obama's policy is repealed, I lose my health insurance.
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On January 26 2011 01:23 PacketOverflow wrote:
To all the europeans talking about "free" health care, aren't you still paying for it in your taxes whether you want to or not?
Also you guys need to remember that the US government does not work like other nation's governments and I'm not just talking politically. If the gov't had full control of healthcare they'd still run it waaay worse than any of the good european nations. I'm pro health care reform but I can understand the fears that some doubters have. Our government does not function anywhere near efficiently.
yes, lol. that's always the slightly humourous bit.
I think the dems should've phrased it differently: WE"RE NUMBER ONE - esque type of slogans while arguing that since the US is the strongest and best country in the world(something right wing propagandists use against the left with no response in kind), that if the US backs down on healthcare it'll show that it is a weak country.
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Yay! Too bad it will never get passed in the senate 
I'm still waiting for the provision about being forced to purchase health care to reach the supreme court as that will be more important than anything the congress is doing. Probably will be like 2-3 years before the supreme court takes up the case.
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On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother.
Eh, my whole family is full of immigrants and they are all democrats without knowing why. It goes both ways. I'm libertarian.
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On January 26 2011 01:36 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother. Eh, my whole family is full of immigrants and they are all democrats without knowing why. It goes both ways. I'm libertarian.
Are they registered democrats? Are you a registered libertarian?
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On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 19:27 Euronyme wrote:On January 25 2011 19:07 Rokit5 wrote:On January 25 2011 17:30 Euronyme wrote:
Hasn't like every other western world country already had this for like 70 years or so? Ah well. Hope it turns out alright for you, but imho keeping it is the best thing you can do.
Democrats are considered right wing over here though, so I guess my view of things are somewhat skewed. Yeah the do. In fact all most every country in the world has a government run healthcare. I feel sorry for americans that this is such a big issue, especially i feel sorry for the millions of people that does not own a healthcare insurance. Its insane that in the richest country in the world, people just die on the streets and in their homes, because they dont have enough money. Nutz. Well the problem is that the US has a 80% debt of their GDP, which is pretty gosh darn bad. Other countries have implented this when the economic position was reasonably good, or right after ww2 when the public demanded it. Health care is also a bigger issue in the US. Currently health care takes up a huge percentage in the spending of the US federal funds, whereas in other countries with even better health care it does not as much. I think it all needs somewhat of a revamp. Just my opinion. I don't live in the US, and I havn't studied the system in perfect detail, so ofcourse I might be totally wrong. you're just the kind of person that likes to comment on these things, at least you have the decency to admit you could be wrong. 99% of people in this thread are people that read a headline about it and just wanna come and say "oh my country can do it why can't yours" without knowing what the bill entails and even less about the current healthcare system. And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
Its funny how the things you wrote in the first paragraph can be applied to the second paragraph.
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On January 25 2011 20:05 Greg_J wrote:
My understanding is that the moment if you have no health insurance you have to pay the full price of health care or more likely can't get health care at all, correct me if I am wrong. This to me is competely unbelivable coming from the U.K where health care is free and open to everyone. I can't believe anyone would ever vote against a bill that granted everyone the right to free health care. To me its bascially saying I'm O.K and the poor don't deserve health care i don't care.
Perhaps because health care is open to everyone and free the standard in the U.K is not always that greatest standard and you can often expect long waits and ques TT. However there is private health care that the rich can pay for if they feel they need it. So its not like they lose out.
Adding a third perspective I have had a lot of treetment on my leg here in South korea. The standard of treetment is amazing comparred to the U.K Public system. I seriously walked in of the street saw a GP and had an X ray like that with like 10 mins waiting. It cost me 10,000 won which is like £5 and my physio theraphy since then has been 2,000 won about a £1 a sesion its unbelivablly cheap. I don't know how they manage to have it so cheap (maybe exchange rate makes it seem cheaper to me). I'm might be covered by some kind of health insurance from my job I don't understand or know about, who knows.
Anyway my basic point is I can't believe anyone would vote against health care reform.
This is because the United States doesn't operate like the rest of the world. Health care for the poor is already taken care of at the state/county level. Every county I have lived in has public hospitals for the poor and offer things like medicare, etc. The reason health care is expensive in the US is a combination of things which individually seem ok.
For example, one of my closest friends owns a medical clinic. He say he spends around $50,000 a year paying for someone to make sure they are always complying with the law. He spends a ton of insurance for his business against malpractice and also has to hire extra employees in order to do government paper work. Basically like 50-75% of the cost of health care is directly related to government regulation and lack of competition.
In reality, health insurance is expensive enough that most people in the age group (14-30) don't buy it since they don't really need to. I have not had health insurance for 6 years. The last time I had it I was paying $250 a month. I have saved $18,000 by not having insurance. I've gone to the doctor a few times and payed around $900 for various treatments in the past 6 years. Obviously I need to buy insurance soon, but so far it's worked out ok. (My wife also hasn't had insurance and has saved about the same amount).
There is a line. As a libertarian I believe that competitive, unregulated (or lightly regulated) health care with some local social programs is the absolute best possible economic solution, but if we are going to do socialized health care, do it all the way. None of this half-assed "You must buy healthcare" crap. This is basically corporate health care since the government is essentially saying "ok health insurance companies, you can rape the US public with your insurance prices".
Health care wasn't always this bad in the US (the care is great actually, the price is high), but there has been a ton of recent regulations and court decisions (in relation to mal-practice) that have caused the prices to be abnormally high.
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On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free.
Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down.
Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms.
There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time.
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On January 26 2011 01:40 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 01:36 darmousseh wrote:On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother. Eh, my whole family is full of immigrants and they are all democrats without knowing why. It goes both ways. I'm libertarian. Are they registered democrats? Are you a registered libertarian?
I don't remember what i'm registered. I last registered republican so I could vote for ron paul in the primaries, but then I think I re-registered libertarian.
Yes, the ones that are US citizens (like 50%) are all registered democrats.
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On January 26 2011 01:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:53 eight.BiT wrote:
I live in the south and let me tell you the average US citizen is scary. Where I live, it's more of a thing to fit in to say you're a republican and all that. I've sat around and talked with these people about what going on in current politics and shockingly they really have no idea whats going on. I can't tell you how often I hear people constantly repeating what they heard from Rush Limbaugh.
I think the scariest part is their children. I went to school with them and they really DON'T care what's happening in politics as long as their party wins. They have no idea what their voting for besides the fact their parents raised them all their life to be another Republican zombie.
Before someone starts flaming me, I'm not a Democrat.. don't bother. So what's your point? I grew up in Northern California, and all the fools there simply voted for their political party of choice (ie Democrats) in every election without really thinking about the policies of the politicians whom they were electing. Last I checked, California isn't doing so hot right now.
I didn't really mean that as a shot at the Repubs so much as a statement about all voters. Like I said, I'm from a place that's very set in its Republican ways so I just used what I see as the example.
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On January 26 2011 01:48 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 25 2011 23:49 plainsane wrote:On January 25 2011 20:54 mustache wrote:
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And to all those european welfare countries let me ask you this. can you countries really afford government/free healthcare? doesnt seem like it the way the PIIGS are failing.
It's not like the government pays the health insurance out of it's backpocket, in the countries i know about there are one or more nonprofit insurance organisations that are not government-run, but under strict rules and laws. Because everyone is paying in it, and it must not make profit, the average cost of the insurance per Person is lower. Some people of course pay more than they would in a purely private system (mainly healthy young males), but that pays off anyway because you might not always be in that position, especially if you ever want to have a family. Ratings are falling because of banks being saved for the "wellbeing" of the people and general mismanagement by governments... No one will make a profit? Really? All it is is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge middle man, a middle man who doesn't work for free. When does the middle man ever make something cheaper? Never. Get rid of the bureaucratic middle men and health care costs would be a fraction of what they are now. But they government won't do it, they have no incentive too, there are too many people making off the system as it is, and the common people are mostly too stupid and brainwashed to even know what's good for them. They have people begging for more management as if it will make anything cheaper or better, as if this management is gonna work for free. Although it's true that Social Security and Medicare are hugely expensive and inefficiently managed, its arguable whether or not a free-market system would drive costs down. Medical care is inelastic. People will pay anything not to die. If there is no government hand in the health-care industry, a significant portion of the population who cannot afford insurance will just die in their homes or outside emergency rooms. There needs to be government health-care reform rather than abolishment. Social Security and Medicare are running on borrowed time.
It's not completely inelastic. Emergency care yes is inelastic, but other treatments are not. And emergency care only insurance is actually really cheap. Unlike other commodities (water, electricity), health care can be run completely independent of the geographical location meaning that there will always be competition to drive the somewhat inelastic prices down. However, certain laws regarding certain medical procedures and techniques (specifically those related to diagnosis) make the diagnosis process more expensive than treatment most of the time. Also another contributing factor is that health insurance is also an oligopoly since federal law prevents companies selling insurance across state lines which is why companies like kaiser have 50 subcomanpies, one for each state (kaiser nevada, kaiser northern california, kaiser southern california, etc.). This discourages competition as well.
Obviously the health care law isn't going to be repealed until at least 2013, but what I think the republicans will do is add provisions like removing mal-practice stuff, removing certain regulations, and getting rid of certain provisions which give the federal government too much authority. The biggest thing that will likely happen is the repeal of the mandatory health insurance purchase law.
So here's my predictions.
2011: Certain previsions related to minimum coverage are removed.
2012: Supreme court finds provision related to mandatory insurance unconsitutional (since it is). Congress tries to pass emergency legislation in order to circumvent, but are blocked by republicans.
2013: Majority of health insurance bill is repealed (bipartisan), only small provisions remain (such as age requirements, etc). Also bipartisan, government makes all health care costs tax-deductible and allows insurance companies to sell across state lines. (this is a hope more than a prediction)
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EPT
