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On January 26 2011 03:36 Treemonkeys wrote:
It's pretty simple.
You have a doctor, you have a patient.
Which costs less overall?
Patient pays doctor?
Or patient pays insurance company, doctor pays business staff, business staff negotiates with insurance company so doctor can get paid. Doctor has to charge enough to cover his business staff salary. Insurance company has to charge enough to cover their massive bureaucracy.
The middle man never lowers cost.
Ifit is so simple why do most, if not all, 1st world countries use other systems? Because they are all stupid? Maybe the current systems are just more effective, economy-wise.
Here are at leat two reasons why (I am sure people who have a more profound knowledge of healthcare system than I do will come up with some more):
- doctors do not have to chase after their money, they get paid by the "middle man"; i.e. more time spent on treating patients, less fear of not getting paid
- insurance allows you to obtain healthcare that is more expensive than what you could usually afford
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so a person with an existing condition should be denied coverage and left to decide between death or bankruptcy?
doesnt sound like what our country was founded upon... maybe the republicans need to reread the preamble our declaration of independence...
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Got a dental bill at $500 last month, made me realize just how awesome free healthcare is. u_u
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doctors do not have to chase after their money, they get paid by the "middle man"; i.e. more time spent on treating patients, less fear of not getting paid
the problem is the "middle man" is even more of a stingy cheap moneygrubbing piece of shit than the patient is/could be.
edit: the reason goes back to the paradoxical relationship between the companies shareholders and their customers i outlined a page or two ago ;b
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On January 26 2011 03:38 DamnCats wrote:Show nested quote +From an economic point of view, forcing PRIVATE INSURERS (ie companies) to take on increased costs is a big problem. What would you do if you, as a business owner, were told by the government that you were going to be forced to eat a bunch of costs that drastically reduce your profitability (if not eliminate it entirely)? Increased costs, yes... but mandating people to get health insurance also.. increases subscribers (aka profits?) as to whether it's balanced out I have no idea that might be doubtful though considering how many people are currently fucked out of the system with a pre-existing condition.
You have doubts as to whether the increased costs are balanced out by the increased subscriber base? Do you really work for an insurance company? My goodness....
Here's an excerpt from a paper that I wrote on the subject:
Conversely, those subscribers that are unprofitable to the insurers can be very unprofitable. It has been estimated that the top 10% most expensive patients account for 69% of all health care costs. Even more striking is the fact that 1% of patients account for 25% of all health care costs. Today, some private insurance companies face even more disproportionate payout schedules. For example, Blue Shield of California has reported that approximately 90% of their distributions go to 10% of their insured patients. “End of life care,” health care given to a patient in final weeks before death, accounts for approximately 10-12% of total health care costs and 27% of Medicare costs. Statistically, 1 in every 1000 households will receive a “shock” of medical expenses totaling at least $125,000 in present value during any given year.
Do you still doubt that insurance companies got the short end of the stick?
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On January 26 2011 03:47 hifriend wrote:
Got a dental bill at $500 last month, made me realize just how awesome free healthcare is. u_u
Not every country has free dental, even if they have free healthcare. Canada doesn't. Unless it's life threatening dental-infection, I'd imagine. Then we'd get it for free. Pulling teeth, though? Not covered.
Any europeans want to tell us about their dental situations? How about optical? It's not free here 
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On January 26 2011 03:36 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:30 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky. Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance? Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend. Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment. Yeah I have car insurance to save me from the risk of getting my car towed and going to jail. You have no idea how our financial system works. It's pretty simple. You have a doctor, you have a patient. Which costs less overall? Patient pays doctor? Or patient pays insurance company, doctor pays business staff, business staff negotiates with insurance company so doctor can get paid. Doctor has to charge enough to cover his business staff salary. Insurance company has to charge enough to cover their massive bureaucracy. The middle man never lowers cost.
Middle men don't lower cost, instead they provide a service for the extra cost. (transport, quality control, risk management, or even shopping for the best price.. in which case they do lower cost slightly.)
Patient pays doctor... doesn't work when the doctor's bill is more than the patient can afford.
Currently everyone in the US has "emergency room" health insurance...ie the emergency room has to take you and stabilize you, regardless of whether or not you can pay the bills. If you can't the hospital eats the cost.
Health Insurance is good since occassionally you get a catastrophic expense.
However, a health insurance that Only covers catastrophic expenses is not good because prevention is a Big part of health... so a smart insurance company would rather pay for regular checkups than the big problem. (Auto insurance isn't like that, regular oil changes aren't that big a part of avoiding crashes).
Like any insurance there is fraud, claims for things not actually needed, and that needs to be cut down on.
The idea of forcing everyone to be "in the system*" works, but you also need to make sure there is competition (breaking companies up... competing across state lines won't help.. then you just have the same few across the US operating from South Dakota like banks)
Premiums then need to be able to be based on things people individually do to affect their own health (weight, smoking, drinking, sexual activity, etc.) Let the insurance company give reduced rates if you show you are taking care of yourself.
*unless they can demonstrate ~$1 million of assets that they can use to pay for their own medical care.
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On January 26 2011 03:41 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:30 Consolidate wrote:On January 26 2011 03:20 Treemonkeys wrote:
You guys don't even realize that insurance isn't needed, it is just a fucking fat middle man driving prices to the sky. Do you understand the concept of insurance at all? Do you have car insurance? Do realize that insurance isn't some esoteric service forced upon people? Risk distribution is a staggeringly easy idea to comprehend. Stop spouting unsubstantiated generalities. Try to explain in detail how insurance companies drive up the cost of medical treatment. QED: Firstly: Insurance companies have people working at them who have jobs, share holders who make money, CEOs who get obscene bonuses. Where does this money come from? The extra % that insurance companies charge you to manage your own risk. This increases the cost to people who wish to have healthcare. I feel really sorry for people who would ever shed a tear for insurance companies.
I'm speaking of the cost of the treatment itself, not of the cost to the patient.
You do realize that from an expected cost probability model insurance is almost never worth for the purchaser?
The total price of insurance is always more expensive than the 'average' case being that you live the bulk of your life without any serious medical conditions and die quietly of some terminal illness. The point of insurance is to INSURE that you don't get massively screwed if an 'unlikely' event is to ever happen.
Edit.
The previous post explains more elaborately.
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Well another huge problem is america doesn't give a shit how unhealthy we are. More people exercising on a daily basis and not chain smoking cigarettes with their McDonalds would be by far the best cost saving measure anyone could do. But hey look at that republicans had to talk shit about Mrs obamas plan to get kids eating healthy too (and by republicans i just mean sarah palin).
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Yeah I have car insurance to save me from the risk of getting my car towed and going to jail. You have no idea how our financial system works.
Actually, you have car insurance to pay Tom Hanks 200,000 dollars if you t-bone his brand new car.
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On January 26 2011 03:51 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:47 hifriend wrote:
Got a dental bill at $500 last month, made me realize just how awesome free healthcare is. u_u Not every country has free dental, even if they have free healthcare. Canada doesn't. Unless it's life threatening dental-infection, I'd imagine. Then we'd get it for free. Pulling teeth, though? Not covered. Any europeans want to tell us about their dental situations? How about optical? It's not free here
In Portugal only the poorer have the right to dental healthcare! i mean everybody can do it but it's such a big line that nowadays only the poorer get that chance and sometimes the goverment give you what we call "health check" that gives a big discount in private dental clinic!
imagine treatment is 50$ and you get from the state 30$ so you only pay 20$!
what happens from state to state in the USA?
imagine you have a low heathcare insurance and you live in NY and you go snowboarding in colorado and you brake a leg!
how much would that cost you?
bah i hate your system so bad i just want to punch our system to you guys by force ;D
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The problem with these threads is that they are one-sided. Anything a conervative does or tries is blasphemy on this forum. Not once have I seen a thread talking about how FAIL our government has been the past two years and the fact that they have done nothing to help our country. And the real kick in the butt is the fact that most of you think healthcare is free anywhere. Nothing is free. You still pay for it. In America most people don't want the government to take over another sector of our private industry. I'm by no means saying that insurance needs an overhaul but the track record of our government shows that this route is awful. Look at any subsidized program and the US and recognize that is is failing. Recognize that you will take the hit down the road and have to pay for all these so called perks you think people are getting. The fact is a production society requires capital growth, education and the WILL TO WORK. That is slowly fading away in this country.
On January 26 2011 03:59 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 03:51 goiflin wrote:On January 26 2011 03:47 hifriend wrote:
Got a dental bill at $500 last month, made me realize just how awesome free healthcare is. u_u Not every country has free dental, even if they have free healthcare. Canada doesn't. Unless it's life threatening dental-infection, I'd imagine. Then we'd get it for free. Pulling teeth, though? Not covered. Any europeans want to tell us about their dental situations? How about optical? It's not free here In Portugal only the poorer have the right to dental healthcare! i mean everybody can do it but it's such a big line that nowadays only the poorer get that chance and sometimes the goverment give you what we call "health check" that gives a big discount in private dental clinic! imagine treatment is 50$ and you get from the state 30$ so you only pay 20$! what happens from state to state in the USA? imagine you have a low heathcare insurance and you live in NY and you go snowboarding in colorado and you brake a leg! how much would that cost you? bah i hate your system so bad i just want to punch our system to you guys by force ;D
No offense if you can't fork out the extra 20$ or so you've got bigger problems...
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AND portugal has Ronaldo. GOD DAMN that is OP. Nerf portugal.
but to play devil's advocate on your post Shell, i think a lot of people would say portugal has 10 million people and america has 300 million fatasses so it might not work out quite as well for us as you guys ;D
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On January 26 2011 03:53 DamnCats wrote:
Well another huge problem is america doesn't give a shit how unhealthy we are. More people exercising on a daily basis and not chain smoking cigarettes with their McDonalds would be by far the best cost saving measure anyone could do. But hey look at that republicans had to talk shit about Mrs obamas plan to get kids eating healthy too (and by republicans i just mean sarah palin).
Part of that is that there is no incentive to be healthy. If insurance companies were able to price discriminate based on lifestyle, you can bet that people would get themselves into shape. No price discrimination = no disincentive.
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On January 26 2011 04:01 t3hwUn wrote:
The problem with these threads is that they are one-sided. Anything a conervative does or tries is blasphemy on this forum. Not once have I seen a thread talking about how FAIL our government has been the past two years and the fact that they have done nothing to help our country. And the real kick in the butt is the fact that most of you think healthcare is free anywhere. Nothing is free. You still pay for it. In America most people don't want the government to take over another sector of our private industry. I'm by no means saying that insurance needs an overhaul but the track record of our government shows that this route is awful. Look at any subsidized program and the US and recognize that is is failing. Recognize that you will take the hit down the road and have to pay for all these so called perks you think people are getting. The fact is a production society requires capital growth, education and the WILL TO WORK. That is slowly fading away in this country.
I'm not sure what you're expecting from a bunch of high school and college students who haven't really been out in the real world yet. =)
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Sanya12364 Posts
Lack of affability in the US health care system is before any health care is delivered. It is in paying insurance premiums. Insurance companies do three things for customers. They use their network to provide connections to doctors to their customers. They manage risk by distributing it over a population and minimize risk by prevention or mitigation. They manage moral hazard by setting policies that make it harder for fraud or unnecessary expenses.
Most of the problem with the US health care system is in moral hazards or reduced ability to manage risk because states forbid certain risk-management tactics. In fact the hardest part of running a health insurance company is designing a semi-appealing policy towards moral hazard. That is what is driving HMO profits because moral hazard reduction in the present system requires a lot of ingenuity.
On January 26 2011 03:51 Krikkitone wrote:
Premiums then need to be able to be based on things people individually do to affect their own health (weight, smoking, drinking, sexual activity, etc.) Let the insurance company give reduced rates if you show you are taking care of yourself.
This is just one example of moral hazard in a system that is stuffed full of them. Group insurance rates and ESP are terrible concoctions that really really hamper proper risk management. The army of uninsured is symptom of failed health care policy rather than the heart of the problem.
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I've experienced both American and Swedish healthcare systems. I get the same quality of care, but in the US I can only go to facilities that accept my insurance, otherwise I'm paying hundreds of dollars out-of-pocket for things as simple as an asthma treatment. In Sweden I can go anywhere and it's all included in my income tax.
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On January 26 2011 04:01 t3hwUn wrote:
The problem with these threads is that they are one-sided. Anything a conervative does or tries is blasphemy on this forum. Not once have I seen a thread talking about how FAIL our government has been the past two years and the fact that they have done nothing to help our country. And the real kick in the butt is the fact that most of you think healthcare is free anywhere. Nothing is free. You still pay for it. In America most people don't want the government to take over another sector of our private industry. I'm by no means saying that insurance needs an overhaul but the track record of our government shows that this route is awful. Look at any subsidized program and the US and recognize that is is failing. Recognize that you will take the hit down the road and have to pay for all these so called perks you think people are getting. The fact is a production society requires capital growth, education and the WILL TO WORK. That is slowly fading away in this country.
This discussion is about health care. Globalization is another matter entirely.
Private industry is failing in the United States because wages are too high for the products we produce. This will not change regardless of government subsidies or lack there of. 'Conservatives' want to cut education and R&D rather than military spending. They would rather be rid of social services and infrastructure projects than deny funds to the military-industrial complex.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:01 t3hwUn wrote:
The problem with these threads is that they are one-sided. Anything a conervative does or tries is blasphemy on this forum. Not once have I seen a thread talking about how FAIL our government has been the past two years and the fact that they have done nothing to help our country.
You'll have some allies if you make a good argument. It helps not to go into a rant about the unfair attitude of the forum consensus. It's better to look for possible allies with common ground than try to argue with someone that you will only talk past. Half of these arguments aren't real debate but posturing and grandstanding.
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On January 26 2011 04:01 t3hwUn wrote:
The problem with these threads is that they are one-sided. Anything a conervative does or tries is blasphemy on this forum. Not once have I seen a thread talking about how FAIL our government has been the past two years and the fact that they have done nothing to help our country. And the real kick in the butt is the fact that most of you think healthcare is free anywhere. Nothing is free. You still pay for it. In America most people don't want the government to take over another sector of our private industry. I'm by no means saying that insurance needs an overhaul but the track record of our government shows that this route is awful. Look at any subsidized program and the US and recognize that is is failing. Recognize that you will take the hit down the road and have to pay for all these so called perks you think people are getting. The fact is a production society requires capital growth, education and the WILL TO WORK. That is slowly fading away in this country.
No offense if you can't fork out the extra 20$ or so you've got bigger problems...
I am utterly confused by your post.
Government has done nothing the past few years?
-I was about to list the accomplishments but you have obviously not even tried to look into it.
And "healthcare is free" has never been quoted by any democrat/republican so I don't know what your talking about, you are literally ranting about a point no one has made.
Then you end it off with a typical ignorant thought about what is really the problem, a problem never quoted by a Republican or Democrat, but needs to be solved. This thought has no statistical data, in fact, you are 100% wrong. Americans work 5-10 hours MORE than their parents did weekly on average.
Some peoples political bubble astounds me.
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EPT
