NASA and the Private Sector - Page 141
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{CC}StealthBlue
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
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SpaceX | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
CHANTILLY, Va. — Standing before the space shuttle Discovery in a voluminous hangar outside of Washington, Vice President Mike Pence announced on Thursday a renewed focus on putting Americans in space and making a return to the moon. “We will return American astronauts to the moon, not only to leave behind footprints and flags, but to build the foundation we need to send Americans to Mars and beyond,” Mr. Pence said during a meeting of the National Space Council. The council, a group of senior federal officials that coordinates policy between NASA, the Defense Department and other agencies involved with space, was disbanded in 1993, but President Trump signed an executive order in June to reestablish it. (The meeting, which was held at the National Air & Space Museum’s Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, was streamed live on the internet). Council members include Secretary of State Rex Tillerson; Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao; Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross; General H.R. McMaster, the national security adviser; and Mike Mulvaney, director of the Office of Management and Budget. Mr. Pence did not lay out a timetable for when American astronauts would step on the moon again or propose a strategy for getting there, much less broach the topic of a price tag. In his introductory comments to the council, Mr. Pence described the United States space program as in decline, and leveled sharp criticism of the Obama administration. “Rather than competing with other nations to create the best space technology, the previous administration chose capitulation,” he said. “Have we fallen behind as we believe?” Mr. Pence asked private sector aerospace executives speaking at the session. “Is that your judgment from the outside?” The executives largely sidestepped the question. “I would say, first of all, that is very important today, that it is an imperative,” said Marillyn A. Hewson, chief executive of Lockheed Martin. She said that there was a need to be “vigilant” about protecting communications and intelligence satellites from attack, but then pivoted to talking about the economic, educational and inspirational benefits of the space program. She and Dennis A. Muilenburg, chief executive of Boeing, both said there was a need for consistent financing and steady commitment to achieve long-term objectives in space. Officials from newer space companies, Elon Musk’s SpaceX and Jeffrey P. Bezos’s Blue Origin, called for public-private partnerships rather than traditional government-run programs and called for streamlining the bureaucratic process of licensing launches. Gwynne Shotwell, president of SpaceX, far from describing a neglected space program in the United States, highlighted her company’s meteoric rise in recent years, with 13 launches in 2017. “In short, there is a renaissance underway right now in space,” she said. The focus on the moon marks an expected turn from the priorities of the Obama administration, which had downplayed the moon and instructed NASA to instead aim for an asteroid and then Mars. The approach is more of a return to the path described by President George W. Bush in 2004 and his father, President George H.W. Bush, 15 years earlier. Both times, the initiatives petered out. Since the last Apollo moon landing in 1972, no astronauts have traveled beyond low-Earth orbit. Mr. Pence suggested that private industry might play a larger role in a moon mission this time. “To fully unlock the mysteries of space, President Trump recognizes that we must look beyond the halls of government for input and guidance,” he said. In a Wall Street Journal opinion article published on Wednesday where Mr. Pence addressed similar themes, he made zero mention of NASA. What will change in practice under the Trump administration is unclear. Although the Obama administration downplayed sending NASA astronauts to the moon, it did support commercial start-ups seeking to send robotic landers there, and Mr. Pence said that the longer-term goal of getting astronauts to Mars remains. Philip Larsen, a former White House space adviser in the Obama administration and now an assistant dean at the University of Colorado engineering school disagreed with Mr. Pence’s criticism. He pointed to SpaceX’s success and billions of dollars of private investment in space ventures in recent years. “That type of activity is what the Obama administration worked to promote and create and foment a whole new industry,” said Mr. Larsen, who did not attend the meeting. He said it was also too early to tell whether the Trump administration’s space efforts would succeed. “It was just very interesting to do this type of process without a NASA administrator or a science adviser in the White House,” he said. “Until they produce a plan, which it looks like they’re moving toward, this is mostly theater and produces a little bit of confusion, I think. I still remain optimistic.” The Senate has not yet held confirmation hearings for Jim Bridenstine, an Oklahoma congressman nominated last month to be the next NASA administrator. President Trump has yet to name a science adviser. John Logsdon, a former director of the Space Policy Institute at George Washington University, was more positive, noting that administration had chosen to hold its first meeting publicly at a high-profile venue to draw more attention. “Words are the first step to action,” he said. Are the words different this time? Dr. Logsdon paused. “No,” he replied wistfully. Source | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
any one know what is going on with the Google Lunar XPrize thing that started in 2007? maybe some of those robots can explore the moon in preparation for a manned landing? reads like a bad 1970's harlequin romance novel | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
The Bigelow Expandable Activity Module (BEAM) was only supposed to stay attached to the ISS for two years. It's been performing well enough in its technological demonstration, however, that NASA now wants to extend its stint for three more years. Astronauts aboard the ISS installed BEAM in early 2016 as an experiment, with the intention of regularly checking its integrity, conducting radiation shielding experiments and collecting microbial air and surface samples from within its confines. The results of those tests prove that the module is tough enough to survive the harsh conditions of outer space for far longer than its original lifespan. While Bigelow Aerospace ultimately wants its expandable habitat to serve as living quarters, it's way too early to expect astronauts to live inside the module. BEAM will instead serve as storage space to hold up to 130 cargo transfer bags used to transport supplies from a spacecraft to the station. Its new role will free up space inside the ISS for more experiments. It will also allow NASA to learn more about modular habitats' structural integrity, thermal stability and resistance to space debris, radiation and microbial growth. The extended experimental period could bring us closer to the independent inflatable stations Bigelow Aerospace wants to send to low-Earth orbit. Based on the procurement filing NASA submitted, the new contract will overlap with the older one and will begin later this year. By the end of the new three-year contract, the agency could choose to extend it for one more year or to finally jettison and allow it to burn as it enters our planet's atmosphere. Source | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
Its pathetic that somehow NASA managed to lose its ability to build rockets and has to buy them from Russians, but that isn't a funding thing, its a "we should fire everyone and hire a bunch of random state school engineering students" thing. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 06 2017 09:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: The SLS will not be up and running as it doesn't even have a lander, not even one being built at this point. The fuck does that have to do with anything? Yes, NASA doesn't pull random shit out of its ass to pretend to have a lunar/Mars lander. But they don't need one to have a mission. On October 06 2017 09:38 cLutZ wrote: Meh. People confuse the 1960s and shuttle era engineering with innovation. Well, the engineering on those was pretty dang groundbreaking. Both were over-engineered as hell but as far as technologies go they were state of the art. On October 06 2017 09:38 cLutZ wrote: We need innovation to improve space flight now, which might not actually come from the space flight industry. Improve it how? By making it cheaper? Making new missions that had previously been unheard of? Saving money is definitely a respectable goal in its own right; NASA was founded on a "waste anything but time" principle and it sure has wasted everything else throughout its existence. But without a government-led initiative none of it is at all worth it. The two CRS darlings would fall apart in 3-4 years without NASA subsidies, just like all the other COTS also-ran startups. Having private companies try to do these missions without NASA guiding them through it all is also a definite no-no. Even Commercial Crew shows that no one is willing to spend their own money on that crap, they are only going along with it when NASA is paying. On October 06 2017 09:38 cLutZ wrote: In the 60s, they were just slapping souped up cockpits onto rockets with a few additional failsafes. I mean if that's true, then what's changed? It's the same mission as before: get people into space and get them back alive. It's little more than an evolutionary improvement. On October 06 2017 09:38 cLutZ wrote: Its pathetic that somehow NASA managed to lose its ability to build rockets and has to buy them from Russians, Yes it is - thank Obama for being short-sighted enough to gut NASA's capabilities with little in the way of a contingency and mostly blind faith in market magic. Leading to a kind of successful cargo program and a commercial crew program that will be obsolete just a couple of years after it actually finishes. On October 06 2017 09:38 cLutZ wrote: but that isn't a funding thing, its a "we should fire everyone and hire a bunch of random state school engineering students" thing. No, it's definitely a funding thing. Unless you have a prestige fetish I'm assuming by "state school engineering students" you mean that they have a hard time getting the high-quality people they need to make better stuff. Which should be no surprise when the organization has no vision for the future to speak of. No Constellation, they have an SLS but no clear mission (possibly the DSG if that sees some love), and they have to deal with a government that is rightfully concerned with saving money, but is less so properly frugal and more so just cheap in ways that end up costing more in the long run. NASA bled a lot of talent after the Shuttle started going downhill and Constellation didn't really survive, so of course they have a lack of the right people. And that is definitely a funding thing. Sure, NASA could certainly learn to be more efficient (it's not flattering that NASA has like 10x the budget of Roscosmos and runs into all these issues) but it's not like they're free to choose where and how to spend their money. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
I'm thinkin' Trump uses this current promise to go back to the moon during his re election campaign in 2020. Will a Democrat Prez candidate promise to continue with the moon mission? | ||
cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On October 06 2017 13:11 LegalLord wrote: The fuck does that have to do with anything? Yes, NASA doesn't pull random shit out of its ass to pretend to have a lunar/Mars lander. But they don't need one to have a mission. Well, the engineering on those was pretty dang groundbreaking. Both were over-engineered as hell but as far as technologies go they were state of the art. Disagree slightly. It was a classic "spare no expense" project (basically ignoring half of what engineering does) that applied WWII technology to a moderately different end goal. If it was as difficult as people ignorant of the tech at the time think, the Russians wouldn't have been able to do it for much less (of course with less reliability, but their engineering achievement was essentially the same). On October 06 2017 13:11 LegalLord wrote: Improve it how? By making it cheaper? Making new missions that had previously been unheard of? Saving money is definitely a respectable goal in its own right; NASA was founded on a "waste anything but time" principle and it sure has wasted everything else throughout its existence. But without a government-led initiative none of it is at all worth it. The two CRS darlings would fall apart in 3-4 years without NASA subsidies, just like all the other COTS also-ran startups. Having private companies try to do these missions without NASA guiding them through it all is also a definite no-no. Even Commercial Crew shows that no one is willing to spend their own money on that crap, they are only going along with it when NASA is paying. Improve as in inventing new propulsion systems. Rocket power is no longer a useful paradigm for things the public is interested in. Nasa should just get its house in order with what they used to have and stop. A Nasa that is trying to develop rockets is an agency that doesn't understand its purpose. On October 06 2017 13:11 LegalLord wrote: I mean if that's true, then what's changed? It's the same mission as before: get people into space and get them back alive. It's little more than an evolutionary improvement. Nasa's mission is totally changed. The goal was to launch a satellite (easy with WWII rockets), then to get a man to orbit (Easy with WWII rockets and WWII sub/airplane tech), then to get a man to the moon and back (hard, but doable with WWII tech). Nasa's new mission is to get to Mars & back with humans, alive. Its really just an extended moon mission, but no one is interested in doing an extended moon mission because that is dumb. Nasa was as lucky as they were good that the first Apollo mission worked, and they know if they have an unexpected failure on a $100 billion failed manned mission to mars they will be done, so they prefer to keep their jobs. On October 06 2017 13:11 LegalLord wrote: Yes it is - thank Obama for being short-sighted enough to gut NASA's capabilities with little in the way of a contingency and mostly blind faith in market magic. Leading to a kind of successful cargo program and a commercial crew program that will be obsolete just a couple of years after it actually finishes. No, it's definitely a funding thing. IMO its a leadership problem and a classic bureaucratic stagnation problem. Most of the military is actually currently experiencing this as they also have not had a proper mission in decades. On October 06 2017 13:11 LegalLord wrote: Unless you have a prestige fetish I'm assuming by "state school engineering students" you mean that they have a hard time getting the high-quality people they need to make better stuff. Which should be no surprise when the organization has no vision for the future to speak of. No Constellation, they have an SLS but no clear mission (possibly the DSG if that sees some love), and they have to deal with a government that is rightfully concerned with saving money, but is less so properly frugal and more so just cheap in ways that end up costing more in the long run. NASA bled a lot of talent after the Shuttle started going downhill and Constellation didn't really survive, so of course they have a lack of the right people. And that is definitely a funding thing. Sure, NASA could certainly learn to be more efficient (it's not flattering that NASA has like 10x the budget of Roscosmos and runs into all these issues) but it's not like they're free to choose where and how to spend their money. I don't have a prestige thing, I went to a state school in engineering. The reason I say that is because MIT, Stanford, Harvard, etc are all part of the groupthink that has made NASA a shitshow. All those schools send teams to Elon Musk's stupid Hyperloop playground, etc. If you want to make NASA better, you have to hire people who were trained to never be a part of NASA, live far from NASA, and kinda think NASA sucks. If you want things to work and change there you'll be better off with 3 Mechs from Iowa than with 3 Aeros from MIT. Regardless, most of this is irrelevant, all they need to do is re-learn 90s rocket tech and wait for someone to invent a real propulsion system (i'd estimate Nasa has a .00001% chance of being the ones to invent a paradigm shifting propulsion system). Such a system will probably not be invented by any private "space exploration" companies either, it will be invented by McDonalds or something. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 06 2017 14:00 cLutZ wrote: The reason I say that is because MIT, Stanford, Harvard, etc are all part of the groupthink that has made NASA a shitshow. All those schools send teams to Elon Musk's stupid Hyperloop playground, etc. If you want to make NASA better, you have to hire people who were trained to never be a part of NASA, live far from NASA, and kinda think NASA sucks. If you want things to work and change there you'll be better off with 3 Mechs from Iowa than with 3 Aeros from MIT. Ah, seems like you meant it in the exact opposite sense. Yeah, I won't pretend that the MIT/Berkeley/Stanford/etc groups that gave validation to utter shit fake science projects don't make me think less of them and of the engineering corps they produce. As far as NASA goes they do have a decent contingent of state grads, though labs like JPL definitely are infested with the prestige curse. Though I'm not exactly sure that there's some good way to deal with that; this same sort of overengineering has been the hallmark of NASA from the start of its existence. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Bob Smith, the CEO of the space outfit founded by Amazon (AMZN, Tech30) mastermind Jeff Bezos, mentioned the new timeline during the first meeting of the newly revamped National Space Council on Thursday. That's a later date than Blue Origin had touted in the past. Just a year ago, the company's president, Rob Meyerson, said the first launch with passengers would be sometime in 2018. In an emailed statement to CNNMoney on Thursday, Blue Origin insisted its "internal dates have not shifted," but added, "we will fly humans when we're ready, and not a moment sooner." The National Space Council, which has been revived under the Trump administration after a two-decade hiatus, includes Vice President Mike Pence and various other government officials. Its goal is to help coordinate space exploration and national security efforts by the public and private sectors. Smith briefly spoke to the panel about Blue Origin's plans to take paying customers to space. "Within the next 18 months we're going to be launching humans into space," he said. "These won't be astronauts...these will be everyday citizens." A 2019 launch would put Blue Origin's first space tourism trip slightly behind its competitor SpaceX, which is headed by Tesla (TSLA) CEO Elon Musk. SpaceX plans to take two tourists on a trip around the moon sometime in the last quarter of 2018. SpaceX confirmed Thursday that date hasn't been adjusted since the company first announced those plans back in February. (Note, however, that Musk is notorious for setting ambitious deadlines -- and blowing through them.) In the grand scheme of things, SpaceX and Blue Origin have very different strategies for space tourism. For Blue Origin, sending paying customers to space is part of the bedrock of it early business strategy. The company wants to conduct frequent launches to the edge of space -- where passengers can briefly experience weightlessness and marvel at the view. (So far, the company has only conducted unmanned test launches of its New Shepherd rocket.) The goal is to make it relatively cheap for an Average Joe to enjoy spaceflight, though Blue Origin hasn't yet indicated exactly how much tickets will cost. The revenue it makes from ticket sales is supposed to help fund the company's future endeavors, such as launching satellites into space. Bezos also told reporters in April that he sells about $1 billion worth of his Amazon shares every year in order to keep Blue Origin stocked with cash, according to Reuters. Source | ||
ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
will they have to go through any special training or do they just sit back and let the spacecraft do everything automatically? | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 07 2017 00:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: have the 2 space tourists to be sent to the moon been named? will they have to go through any special training or do they just sit back and let the spacecraft do everything automatically? How can you go to the moon on a rocket pulled out of one's ass? All I see at this point is a three month delay every three months. | ||
JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
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