On December 15 2010 05:30 ProtossGirl wrote: I like to see boobs.. It's only on forums like this with so much self righteousness from it's posters could something so normal (boobs = cool) be taken as "disgust"
I have no problems like this, and even if it had been a party for both genders i don't think it would have been a problem.. Boobs are nice, even I like to look at them.
For those who think it may be "demeaning" flip it around in your head, I bet you'd feel quite the powerful man/stud if people were willing to give you large sums of money to take your pants off.
It is demeaning. I'll help you out with flipping it around in your head.
You live in a society where women are the traditional head of the household. They put food on the table, pay the bills, and have the most important jobs in science, government, and industry. As a man, you are not valued based on your contributions to these fields, even if you have a career in one of them. You are judged mostly based upon your appearance. Magazines at the cash register have 'shops of all the hottest men wearing next to nothing. You can easily notice that women, regardless of the context (work/leisure) are more interested in talking to and being around more attractive men.
Most men are looking for love and intimacy as an important part of their sex life. They want to have sex, but with someone they feel safe with, someone they feel loved by, someone they respect. Generally, this more true the older the man gets. Most men as they start to get into their 30s tend to want a family as well. Unfortunately, it is all too common that as they lose their attractiveness, their wife will leave them for someone younger.
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
Wery well spoken, nice to finally read the opinion of someone who put some thought into the matter between all the mindless repeating of the "strippers = win" cliché just to look cool. Bravo!
On December 15 2010 05:30 ProtossGirl wrote: I like to see boobs.. It's only on forums like this with so much self righteousness from it's posters could something so normal (boobs = cool) be taken as "disgust"
I have no problems like this, and even if it had been a party for both genders i don't think it would have been a problem.. Boobs are nice, even I like to look at them.
For those who think it may be "demeaning" flip it around in your head, I bet you'd feel quite the powerful man/stud if people were willing to give you large sums of money to take your pants off.
It is demeaning. I'll help you out with flipping it around in your head.
You live in a society where women are the traditional head of the household. They put food on the table, pay the bills, and have the most important jobs in science, government, and industry. As a man, you are not valued based on your contributions to these fields, even if you have a career in one of them. You are judged mostly based upon your appearance. Magazines at the cash register have 'shops of all the hottest men wearing next to nothing. You can easily notice that women, regardless of the context (work/leisure) are more interested in talking to and being around more attractive men.
Most men are looking for love and intimacy as an important part of their sex life. They want to have sex, but with someone they feel safe with, someone they feel loved by, someone they respect. Generally, this more true the older the man gets. Most men as they start to get into their 30s tend to want a family as well. Unfortunately, it is all too common that as they lose their attractiveness, their wife will leave them for someone younger.
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
Wery well spoken, nice to finally read the opinion of someone who put some thought into the matter between all the mindless repeating of the "strippers = win" cliché just to look cool. Bravo!
Unlike you?
I was of the impression that "+1" posts aren't tolerated here :S
Why not speak of why you support this poster, or write about why you do not support the other point of view? - Further the discussion?
Women cheat on men, Men cheat on women. Its my opinion that the example you quoted was exaggerated and biased at best, and complete hyperbole at worst. For example the comment "most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them" just seeks to tarnish and disrespect people for self serving point reinforcing reasons. I disagree out of personal experience, As i have had friends who turned to stripping during college, and actually found the job to be a confidence boost, just the thought of someone telling you "hey, you know you look good enough to be paid to take your top off" is quite the ego boost.
At least here, the venues had an air of respect towards the women, putting on a show for the men, not the air of some seedy back alley motel where damaged goods were being dragged out onto a stage by their leashes, as it seems some people like to paint the picture.
In general, men seek partners primarily visually, whereas women seek them based upon factors such as looks, sure, but primarily resource related reasons, or power. That's how we made it to where we are now, that's how we breed, that's how out of the 0.1% of things still alive on this planet, we are still here too. We have inherently different criteria for evaluating the opposite sex, and that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. People say society is evil for "creating this construct", I put it to you that society simply abides by the construct that has always been there, and perhaps always will.
I think that's fine. I don't think something like that should affect any friendship or should incite any awkwardness between them. It is only a big deal if you make a big deal out of it. It is only awkward if you only think it is awkward.
Mind over matter, and the writer of the message said "complicity". I mean are strippers illegal in Aus? If so then maybe his statement has validity but if it's not, what? So what if some are excluded?
From what I can tell it was at the end, which was appropriate so everyone had a whole night to enjoy and lavish. You say some were left out at the end, but they weren't left out, they chose to not participate. They chose that because they wouldn't enjoy that event, so they weren't left out because using that term implies it was something they would have enjoyed if given the opportunity.
Then another possible argument would be, "Why didn't the organizer organize an ending that everyone could enjoy?" That, I don't think is a proper criticism because of two possibilities.
First--that is a very subjective thing and for all you know, the organizer could have thought, "We're all men, we all[or most] enjoy women so let me set an extra treat for the guys." Put that way, the organizer seemed to have stepped the extra yard to provide more for the attendants, which in some circles, admirable.
Second--from what I can tell it seems that the organizer used it as an "optional" after party. Same logic applies, it is something extra, it is not part of the original event it is an optional event. Because it is optional, and an extravagance, it is disproportionate to the reunion party so it would be unfair to the organizer to say they were a coherent event. Same thing with after parties--so and so performer is going to be at after party--I don't like them so I won't attend. There should be no hard feelings because it is an after party. The party was the main objective, there is nothing loss if you chose to not participate it
Finally one last argument is...some people who didn't like the strippers wanted to hang out more with the people who wanted the strippers, which I reply to: you are all adults, if you want to hang out with them, arrange a get together, don't use the extra event as an excuse that balked you from spending "time" with one another.
Disclaimer: I say what I say from what I've read from OP, and there is always the possibility of me perceiving some situations different from what they were initially intended to convey. So I stand by what I say if I have perceived all of what I read correctly.
On December 15 2010 07:56 Roflhaxx wrote: If it's an all male school then I don't see the problem tbh.
So if girls were there, it would be a problem? If so, then what about any guys that are going home to girlfriends or wives? Is there a difference between those two scenarios/ would it change if the girlfriends and wives were present during the strip show?
If there is a difference, then we have an interesting contradiction on what is a problem and what isn't.
But if it truly isn't a problem, then let everyone know. Maybe the turn-out will be even bigger, who knows. If it isn't a problem, don't hide it.
If you read the OP he said that none of them were married, and yes ofcourse it would (gf) who would wanna get a lapdance with your gf watching. And if you dont want a lapdance then just don't get one its easy as that.
Sorry, I had just waded through 12 pages of replies. I had forgotten that they were all unmarried. Ignoring that, my point still stands. Very few would want to get a lap dance with their gf watching or even see a strip show with their gf in tow. Now for some reason, if the gf isn't there, many don't see a problem. Power to them.
But there also exists men that wouldn't want to whether their gf is there are not. Especially because the gf probably wouldn't want it. You can argue that the gf is being unreasonable. But, those men exist, regardless of how you may think the couple needs to loosen up.
For the sake of those people, a simple heads up that 'hey there is also going to be strippers' would suffice. It's as easy as that.
Finally one last argument is...some people who didn't like the strippers wanted to hang out more with the people who wanted the strippers, which I reply to: you are all adults, if you want to hang out with them, arrange a get together, don't use the extra event as an excuse that balked you from spending "time" with one another.
Isn't that kinda the reason for a reunion? The entire reason people are traveling to get to this get together? I don't know about in Australia, but strip clubs aren't the most obscure/ rare place in Canada... compared to I don't know, a get-together every 5-10 years.
On December 15 2010 07:19 aidnai wrote: If you were more correct than me about 'society', why have we not had a female president yet? why is there still to this day a 'glass ceiling' for high-power/exec type jobs? Why is 99% of the porn industry targeted at men, not 50%? Hell, why did we elect Bush twice? Do you think that the majority of the US is like-minded to you?
To get back to the original point: I have a problem with strippers because it reinforces negative attitudes towards women which I observe to be prevalent in our society. There are logically four parts here, you tell me which one you have a problem with. 1) Women stripping encourages men to view them as sex objects 2) Women being viewed purely as sex objects is demeaning 3) I observe that women are in fact commonly regarded purely as sex objects. (examples i gave: Tom Leykis, 4chan) 4) Stripping therefore is contributing negatively.
We don't have a woman president because a black dude mobilized The Internet; it's fairly common knowledge. But if you want to bring up history...
Europe is far more liberal than the United States about strip clubs, nudity in advertising, pornography, even prostitution. Why do they have greater respect for females than us? Hell, Iceland even have a openly lesbian Prime Minister, not to mention the number of female presidents/PMs across the mainland.
Why does Iran allow stoning for adultery against women, despite the brutal government crackdowns on "demeaning entertainment"? How about them Iranian businesswomen and statesmen?
Your "benign" blinders are hurting the situation, not helping it. Allowing people to make choices in their lives empowers them, not harms them. Because when people choose to do things, even things you disagree with, others realize that it's the result of free will (redundant), and thereby renders them more human. Not someone else's instrument.
Women stripping does NOT render or encourage people to think of women as a whole as sex objects. It's when force is involved, one way or another, that this dehumanization occurs. Even if this force is to "protect" them from "evils" that they are "defenseless" against. This is the difference from a sex worker in Amsterdam and a lap dancer in Malaysia.
Prostitute has sex because her pimp has a gun to her head? Sex object, no free will involved.
Prostitute has sex because she's saving money for college? Human, not a plaything.
Almost every other first world country knows this better than America. Europe ensures that free will, and therefore humanization, is involved through regulation and tolerance. America cuts it off at the knees. And destroys free will, marginalizes people, in the process.
On December 15 2010 05:30 ProtossGirl wrote: I like to see boobs.. It's only on forums like this with so much self righteousness from it's posters could something so normal (boobs = cool) be taken as "disgust"
I have no problems like this, and even if it had been a party for both genders i don't think it would have been a problem.. Boobs are nice, even I like to look at them.
For those who think it may be "demeaning" flip it around in your head, I bet you'd feel quite the powerful man/stud if people were willing to give you large sums of money to take your pants off.
It is demeaning. I'll help you out with flipping it around in your head.
You live in a society where women are the traditional head of the household. They put food on the table, pay the bills, and have the most important jobs in science, government, and industry. As a man, you are not valued based on your contributions to these fields, even if you have a career in one of them. You are judged mostly based upon your appearance. Magazines at the cash register have 'shops of all the hottest men wearing next to nothing. You can easily notice that women, regardless of the context (work/leisure) are more interested in talking to and being around more attractive men.
Most men are looking for love and intimacy as an important part of their sex life. They want to have sex, but with someone they feel safe with, someone they feel loved by, someone they respect. Generally, this more true the older the man gets. Most men as they start to get into their 30s tend to want a family as well. Unfortunately, it is all too common that as they lose their attractiveness, their wife will leave them for someone younger.
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
Wery well spoken, nice to finally read the opinion of someone who put some thought into the matter between all the mindless repeating of the "strippers = win" cliché just to look cool. Bravo!
Unlike you?
I was of the impression that "+1" posts aren't tolerated here :S
Why not speak of why you support this poster, or write about why you do not support the other point of view? - Further the discussion?
Women cheat on men, Men cheat on women. Its my opinion that the example you quoted was exaggerated and biased at best, and complete hyperbole at worst. For example the comment "most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them" just seeks to tarnish and disrespect people for self serving point reinforcing reasons. I disagree out of personal experience, As i have had friends who turned to stripping during college, and actually found the job to be a confidence boost, just the thought of someone telling you "hey, you know you look good enough to be paid to take your top off" is quite the ego boost.
At least here, the venues had an air of respect towards the women, putting on a show for the men, not the air of some seedy back alley motel where damaged goods were being dragged out onto a stage by their leashes, as it seems some people like to paint the picture.
In general, men seek partners primarily visually, whereas women seek them based upon factors such as looks, sure, but primarily resource related reasons, or power. That's how we made it to where we are now, that's how we breed, that's how out of the 0.1% of things still alive on this planet, we are still here too. We have inherently different criteria for evaluating the opposite sex, and that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. People say society is evil for "creating this construct", I put it to you that society simply abides by the construct that has always been there, and perhaps always will.
(now you try ;D)
Really? So you're basically arguing that Stripping should be accepted by society, when you know that it is, in fact, frowned upon. You know that, even though it's legal, you wouldn't want your husband to go to such places regularly. You know that, even though business men and such frequent these places, it's no where near as innocent as having them go to a pub. Yet, you're acting like it's the most natural job in the world.
Well, it isn't. You were asking if males wouldn't feel awesome if someone paid them to take off their clothes. No, I wouldn't. All it takes for me to get there is a few months of going to the gym. That's all. And a lot of guys do that anyway. Why are they not all stripping if it's so "empowering"? Because it's demeaning. Because any other job will look better in society's eyes.
So, I get what you're saying. On a very basic level, it's not bad. And I agree, I also think prostitution should be legal everywhere. But that doesn't warrant the idea of you being able to shove a prostitute down my neck (hehe), just because I came to our reunion. If I am in a serious relationship, I don't WANT to look at prostitutes because I find it degrading, and because I find it disrespectful towards my better half, and because I wouldn't like it if the situations were reversed. That's all. If it was a bachelor party, sure, I'd have to step out, or at least be reassured that it was to be expected. But at a reunion? Please. It's sleazy. Some of us have outgrown the need to pay to see a boob. Some of us never will. AND IT'S OK. Just don't force me into that situation, as I'm not forcing anyone to stay out of strip clubs.
On December 15 2010 05:30 ProtossGirl wrote: I like to see boobs.. It's only on forums like this with so much self righteousness from it's posters could something so normal (boobs = cool) be taken as "disgust"
I have no problems like this, and even if it had been a party for both genders i don't think it would have been a problem.. Boobs are nice, even I like to look at them.
For those who think it may be "demeaning" flip it around in your head, I bet you'd feel quite the powerful man/stud if people were willing to give you large sums of money to take your pants off.
It is demeaning. I'll help you out with flipping it around in your head.
You live in a society where women are the traditional head of the household. They put food on the table, pay the bills, and have the most important jobs in science, government, and industry. As a man, you are not valued based on your contributions to these fields, even if you have a career in one of them. You are judged mostly based upon your appearance. Magazines at the cash register have 'shops of all the hottest men wearing next to nothing. You can easily notice that women, regardless of the context (work/leisure) are more interested in talking to and being around more attractive men.
Most men are looking for love and intimacy as an important part of their sex life. They want to have sex, but with someone they feel safe with, someone they feel loved by, someone they respect. Generally, this more true the older the man gets. Most men as they start to get into their 30s tend to want a family as well. Unfortunately, it is all too common that as they lose their attractiveness, their wife will leave them for someone younger.
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
Wery well spoken, nice to finally read the opinion of someone who put some thought into the matter between all the mindless repeating of the "strippers = win" cliché just to look cool. Bravo!
Unlike you?
I was of the impression that "+1" posts aren't tolerated here :S
Why not speak of why you support this poster, or write about why you do not support the other point of view? - Further the discussion?
Hmm, ok you caught me on the +1 thing, I hoped noone would notice...
So I will try to elaborate, although I should probably go to sleep already. I'm taking a long time putting together thoughts in english, and also I try never to actively discuss on forums, because in so many cases these discussions are not carried out to learn, but rather to try to prove that the own opinion is right, so one would not get into the uncomfortable situation of having to change ones mind, or even worse, question ones habits. I do like to read a lot though and in this special case I just had to applaud to that posting because I really respected the reasoning and the point of view that was presented in comparison to those before, it was an eye opener, short, direct, maybe a bit over the top, but definitely presenting a completely different take on the discussion.
Women cheat on men, Men cheat on women.
Noone would disagree with that, but still today it seems more acceptable for a guy to cheat on a girl than the other way around. Also a guy having lots of sexual contacts to girls is looked up to, he is a "casanova" or "gets lots of pussy". There is however no glamour at all in a girl having lots of sexual contacts, instead she is oftentimes even regarded as a bitch and to some even considered of lesser value than a virgin regarding a future marriage.
Also, some people here brought up the "argument" that there are also male strippers. Somehow they seem to want this to sound like there are "as many" male strippers. And then they somehow conclude that the number of them compared to female strippers would not be a joke. Come on, lets be honest. How much of the adult entertainment industry is geared towards mens pleasure, and how much care is taken about womens pleasure? Why do you think most porn movies present all the repeating boring standard ways of submission from the woman, almost always in exactly the same order? Nothing wrong with submissive bahaviour during sex, but why do you think its ALWAYS the woman who is in the submissive role in the vast majority of the movies? Do you really think that this is just a "natural" desire in our genes? That all the women want to be submissive and all the men want to be dominant all the time? Did you consider that it may perhaps rather have something to do with the desire of people to be accepted and therefore adopting what is common practice and be discouraged from things that are not common practice?
Just for example, imagine you were a 15 year old boy, and the internet and the behaviour of your friends suggested you, that you have to ejaculate into the girls face at the end of sexual intercourse, that this is fun and you are quite manly and while doing so. How are the chances, that you will want to try this out and imitate it? How are the chances that you will think that the girl will expect this from you, because she wants a "real man"? How much will you expect this from the girl, because you want to be a "real man", or because you think this is "the way to do it"? How are the chances that, when asked, you will put forward the opinion that this is the way to go, just to look somewhat cool and experienced?
Really f***ing high I'd say. And how are the chances that any of these situations will occur if you never ever heard about this technique? Not exactly great I suppose...
So is the majority of common practice between men and women in general really exactly like it is because it is "just the way it is" or " the most natural way" ?
Given the massive oppression of women that our civilization has had for a long time during its history, would you not think there is a good chance that the social habits between men and women are full of small examples that in the current development most people will consider "normal", "natural", "the way to go" when in fact they are just demeaning? Even after women finally got the right to vote and are treated equally in front of the law?
Its my opinion that the example you quoted was exaggerated and biased at best, and complete hyperbole at worst. For example the comment "most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them" just seeks to tarnish and disrespect people for self serving point reinforcing reasons.
On second reading I have to agree with you here. Its pretty blunt to suggest most strippers were molested during childhood, but atleast the strippers are in a subject role here, its about their own sexual sentiments, this was not the case in the vast majority of the posts up to then in which strippers were more or less treated like some product, like coke or beer or something.
I disagree out of personal experience, As i have had friends who turned to stripping during college, and actually found the job to be a confidence boost, just the thought of someone telling you "hey, you know you look good enough to be paid to take your top off" is quite the ego boost.
The important thing here is that you have to ask why exactly this is such an ego boost. What constitutes self confidence in a social environment? Because women in todays society in many circumstances are still valued just for their body above anything else, getting this kind of "compliment" points to being of a relatively high social value overall. The more a woman accepts that just her body matters, the more self confidence she will get from such compliments. Compliments are a very common and powerful means of oppression, not only in the history of the oppression of women. Someone who feels honored or flattered is less likely to revolt and question his role in society. Think of the dictatorships which call themself communistic and praise the simple workers above everything else. To have the pressed workers feel somewhat content, they get compliments instead of rights. Getting such a confidence boost makes it mentally easier to accept their situation and think of it as normal.
But there are people out there who will not just accept whatever demeaning social habits are thrown at them and instead get vocal about it, and rightly so. And these people are not wrong just because a large number of the opressed themselves don't care or will tell you "its normal" or "natural". Slaves or underlings in aristocratic societies also thought of their situation as perfectly normal and the natural, god given way how life has to be. It is a very human and useful behaviour to think like that, to somehow arrange with your situation and consider it natural.
In general, men seek partners primarily visually, whereas women seek them based upon factors such as looks, sure, but primarily resource related reasons, or power. That's how we made it to where we are now, that's how we breed, that's how out of the 0.1% of things still alive on this planet, we are still here too. We have inherently different criteria for evaluating the opposite sex, and that isn't a bad thing in my opinion. People say society is evil for "creating this construct",
Yea, a statement like "society is evil" is of course more of a set phrase, and not a statement which makes any real sense if you consider the category of words thrown together there. Its somehow like saying social security has some sick blink stalker micro, it has no real meaning if you look closely. Also I wasn't at all trying to suggest that women and men are the same or choose their partners based on the same criteria. I do think however that these differences are slightly overrated. Humans are not just animals, there is all the cultural stuff involved also, so things are a lot more complex. And when you look at the strange and different habbits that existed in different societies over time, then I'd say this explanation is certainly a lot too thin to be used as a justification for inhuman practice.
I put it to you that society simply abides by the construct that has always been there, and perhaps always will.
Sorry to be frank, but you couldn't be more wrong. This is quite a lazy way to look at the world infact. Maybe things seem like that over the course of a short lifetime during our "relatively" stable time in the western world. But society in general is not a static system, and it has never been.
History tells us quite detailed that all the fundamental values of our civilization, liberty and equality were hard-earned by people who got vocal about oppression. A lot of people even went further and brought great sacrifices, sometimes even their lives to pursue these ideals. We went through a lot of different ages who all had a major impact on our society, and also especially on the social behaviour between men and women. Archievements have been made that have made life a lot more worthwile for billions of people. You dont even have to look into history books to learn about women who cant choose whom they want to get married to and get stoned to death if they betray the "chosen one". Our liberties are not for granted, they have not always been there and they will not further develop or even stay in place by themselves. As always in the history of mankind, people are needed to step it up, get informed and point to uncomfortable truths.
And this is why I respect people who are bold enough to present thoughts which deviate from the standardized accepted opinion, especially if its very inconsiderate. And especially when there were postings before that tried to suggest you had to be gay to be offended, with a slight homophobic undertone, and you can wait outside and wait until you're made fun of later, and as a "real man" you have to enjoy strippers, no matter what (lol...). All nice examples of peer pressure that, while voiced on the basis of personal insecurity, is aimed to make others try to like stripping even if they maybe wouldn't if they could choose without pressure. The more insecure people feel about a certain subject, the more they feel the need to get others to share their opinion. So again a bravo, or in internet terms a Effing +1 to aidnai for not being affected by all the posts before and delivering a more sensible take on the subject.
People might ignore it if they want, but there are clearly misogynist and inhuman tendencies involved in the concept of stripping, regarding the way its carried out and the way people (including the strippers themselves) talk about it. The fact that it gets more acceptance lately does tell more about the current development of our society and not so much about it being "natural" or not, because really anything might be considered "natural" given the right social circumstances.
Yes, I have to applaud perestain for writing such an extensive and well-written explanation of what I simply referred to as "it distorts the power balance between the sexes (in society as well as in the situation), promoting the idea of female sexuality as a commodity". I felt quite bad while posting my last post, on page 13, because I hadn't been able to put things very clearly. I'm glad the point isn't lost
It seems that perestain is talking about the intangible differences, while aidnai, in his argumentation, has mostly focused on more tangible differences such as jobs, positions of power and statistics in terms of gender roles.
Sex is great. Looking good is something everyone can work towards and has no less merit than being smart, since it is defined by genetics to about an equel degree.
Taking your clothes off for a living if you are comfortable with it is awesome.
All this feminist talk has gotten old by 1980 already. Women today are on par with men when they are driven and capable, most of the time they are ahead. Do you live in Kenya or something? 90% of my college professors were female and so is Germany's chancellor if I am not mistaken.
There is nothing demeaning about sex. This is a terribly dated, beaten horse ridden only by puritans and frigid feminazis.
In the age of men wearing make up because "they're worth it, too" and women competing in MMA maybe we should instead be worried about preserving gender identity before we all turn into hermaphrodites...
On December 15 2010 19:19 Kickboxer wrote: Wow, so many prudish remarks.
Sex is great. Looking good is something everyone can work towards and has no less merit than being smart, since it is defined by genetics to about an equel degree.
Taking your clothes off for a living if you are comfortable with it is awesome.
All this feminist talk has gotten old by 1980 already. Women today are on par with men when they are driven and capable, most of the time they are ahead. Do you live in Kenya or something? 90% of my college professors were female and so is Germany's chancellor if I am not mistaken.
There is nothing demeaning about sex. This is a terribly dated, beaten horse ridden only by puritans and frigid feminazis.
In the age of men wearing make up because "they're worth it, too" and women competing in MMA maybe we should instead be worried about preserving gender identity before we all turn into hermaphrodites...
If you haven't already, I suggest you read perestain's comment - otherwise, re-read it. Saves us some time
No one is saying sex is bad or that there is something demeaning about sex as such. There is a lot more going on in the situation of stripping than just the sexual.
You might be addressing the posts of aidnai, and some of the exaggerations or distortions in his posts have already been adressed. However, the point still remains that a lot of concepts and institutions, among these, stripping, reinforce negative behavioural patterns in people. These things go way back, but fortunately civilization has developed to a point where these practices are at a minimum. These practices reflect on society; the women see themselves and the way others see them. It's not strange that in some European societies, where the respect for women is higher, stripping has very little presence, while is still seems very prevalent or even glorified in some American states. Nor is it any coincidence that Berlusconi, one of the most corrupt and apathetic heads in Europe, fills up public service channels with sex symbols, promoting an agenda that negates other values and promotes a carefree nonchalance among the Italian people.
On December 15 2010 02:48 JackMcCoy wrote: Getting fully naked and staying that way in the middle of a social gathering is a fun way to spice up those boring holiday parties, but it takes both physical and emotional dexterity to successfully execute. You can't simply tear your clothes off and be done with it. You have to ease your way into it; you have to use a little something called finesse.
Let's be honest: we've all been there, leaning against the bar in some dank dive, 75 of your close friends leering at and skulking around two beaten-up, manky strippers. Candy, the younger of the two, grinds on a bar stool, her vacant expression no alibi for her wandering thoughts. You wonder what shattered dreams or broken childhood she pines for as she begins to perform fellatio on her own fist. The other stripper, whom you've dubbed, "The Skeksis," writhes around on the buffet table before suggesting body shots. You struggle to hold down the beer you've been nursing as they fit two full shots and a mixer into her belly button. Your eyes glaze over and the dark, Fincher-esque bar, looking like a scene from Eyes Wide Shut, fades from focus as you daydream about being somewhere that doesn't make you feel inexplicably greasy.
But all is not lost, friends, for you still have your trump card, your ace-in-the-hole, the one thing that never fails to make a party interesting (at least for you). Getting naked! Getting naked in front of a crowd of people with subtlety and grace is a logistical nightmare, but thankfully there are some guidelines to keep in mind that will help smooth out the process:
Take your clothes off slowly, maintaining eye contact with whomever you were conversing with. Don't wear clothing that is difficult to remove, or expensive to replace should you have to leave it behind in a hurry.
Try not to have a boner when you get naked. Naked + Flaccid = Casual, Non-Threatening. Naked + Erect = Aggressive, Threatening, Might try to mount me. If you know you can't help yourself, you may want to look into some novelty items to disguise or dress-up your penis, like a tiny Santa hat.
Don't fart. Without clothes to act as a buffer, pure fart can prove quite toxic, not to mention the dangers of some fecal matter making a daring escape. Many first-timers get excited during their initial attempt, and bad things can happen when you mix booze, adrenaline and a cavalier fart policy.
Have fun with it! While the rest of your 75 closest friends watch Candy twirl around a support beam and absent-mindedly pick at her scabs, you'll be experiencing a whole new world of freedom. Enjoy that breeze, buddy. You've earned it.
On December 15 2010 05:30 ProtossGirl wrote: I like to see boobs.. It's only on forums like this with so much self righteousness from it's posters could something so normal (boobs = cool) be taken as "disgust"
I have no problems like this, and even if it had been a party for both genders i don't think it would have been a problem.. Boobs are nice, even I like to look at them.
For those who think it may be "demeaning" flip it around in your head, I bet you'd feel quite the powerful man/stud if people were willing to give you large sums of money to take your pants off.
It is demeaning. I'll help you out with flipping it around in your head.
You live in a society where women are the traditional head of the household. They put food on the table, pay the bills, and have the most important jobs in science, government, and industry. As a man, you are not valued based on your contributions to these fields, even if you have a career in one of them. You are judged mostly based upon your appearance. Magazines at the cash register have 'shops of all the hottest men wearing next to nothing. You can easily notice that women, regardless of the context (work/leisure) are more interested in talking to and being around more attractive men.
Most men are looking for love and intimacy as an important part of their sex life. They want to have sex, but with someone they feel safe with, someone they feel loved by, someone they respect. Generally, this more true the older the man gets. Most men as they start to get into their 30s tend to want a family as well. Unfortunately, it is all too common that as they lose their attractiveness, their wife will leave them for someone younger.
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
You conflate trauma survivors with continued victims, and many would take a huge amount of offense to that because it quite simply isn't up to you to tell them what an appropriate reaction to their childhood is.
I highly doubt that Lili St Cyr would consider herself damaged or a victim.
Additionally, male fear that they would lose their attractiveness and have someone leave them isn't borne out by statistics. Canada, at least, would have 75% of their theoretical men deciding to pull the plug on marriages. Additionally, quantitative surveys would show that the theoretical women suffer far higher levels of stress and cope with the ensuing divorce poorer than the women do.
EPT
