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On December 15 2010 07:05 aidnai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:33 ProtossGirl wrote:On December 15 2010 06:16 aidnai wrote:On December 15 2010 06:10 acker wrote:On December 15 2010 06:06 aidnai wrote:
Some men however embrace their role as a sex object. They refuse to be seen without wearing make-up and wearing designer clothing. There are even some men who strip for a living. Many if not most of these have some childhood trauma (mother/aunts molested them). Crowds of women, taking a break from their important jobs, their boring husbands, and dreary hobbies, pay money to see these men take their clothes off and live up to their societally defined role of being sex objects.
I could go on, but are you starting to get it yet?
My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours. ...I can't tell if you're trolling, but you do realize that male strippers already exist, right? You're flipping absolutely nothing on its head. Male strippers are the butt of a bad joke. Do you know any? do you take them seriously? are they valuable to society? Compare the role of female strippers in our society to the role of male strippers. The inequality I'm talking about is still apparent. Women strippers are viewed differently because they are "supposed" to be sex objects, whereas male strippers are a joke because they are "supposed" to have real jobs. Also, the relative numbers of male/female strippers and strip clubs further proves the points I made above about gender roles and expectations. Supply and demand man. why do you think i have a shitty attitude? Why be a ball aching prick about it? (shit i dont have balls but you make me ache anyway) If you really think the feminists of today are doing a good job, with high value to society, think again. P.S in almost every women's magazine there are picutres of men in tight little pants showing their manly bulge, photoshopped physiques and sunlit packages.. and you know what? Its Great. Just like women, men can be appreciated for their bodies as well as their other attributes. I'm sure many men may see me as a sexual object, and thats fine, because i look back into their eyes and i see sex too. Many other men see me for my personality too, and that's also great i have talents and abilities, and i recognise those of the men i find sexually attractive. You are acting just like the guy who says "im not racist, i have a black friend" Theres a large difference between the poverty ending empowerment of women, and the narrow minded views of todays feminists moaning that people find them attractive and are happy to pay to see them naked. If I was lonely and wanted to see some male flesh, and couldnt find anyone willing in a bar, Maybe i'd pay a stripper? maybe a lot of people would. If both parties are willing, whats the problem? TBH, I regret the 'shitty attitude' comment. Sorry for being a prick. But to answer your points: It's likely that England/Europe are ahead of the US in terms of gender equality. That might be part of why we're not seeing eye-to-eye. However, I'm having a hard time imagining a 5-year reunion for a all female school where it would be acceptable to have a male stripper. When I think of females stripping, I think of the girls on 4chan that want to be accepted according to societal standards so badly that when the options are TITS OR GTFO, they choose to expose themselves. That is demeaning. When a man refers to a woman as a cumdumpster (common on shock-jock radio shows and 4chan), he means the woman is a toilet for his 'other' body fluids. That is demeaning. If you actually are a female, then it's possible you don't understand how base, how crass, how un-evolved males can be and often are in this regard. If you want to find out, listen to Tom Leykis or spend an hour on 4chan. Porn, strip shows, prostitution all reinforce this conception that females are here to serve the needs of males, specifically the sexual needs. That is why I have a problem with those things. Incidentally, I also have a problem with 'equality' based on men being equally objectified as women. However, in my experience, I perceive little danger of that.
Takes a lot to say that you regret something, rather than just compounding it, So for that i respect you, and I also respect and understand your points, however i think the lens that we see the world through are just different regarding this.
I've seen 4chan, I've seen the rate me threads, and the "tits or gtfo", I've seen white knights and "rape threads", and I've also come to learn that this just doesn't represent the real thoughts the posters have, its just for kicks, to get a rise out of others. In real life a lot of them tend to be lonely, quite sensitive and nice and would love to just talk to another human being for a while.
Evolutionarily men want to dominate women, and women (now this might be a strong statement to make, and highly controversial) want to be dominated.
I don't mean disrespectfully, but I mean, women, or at least the ones I work and socialise with and study, want a strong man, with strong passion for her flesh, they want their men to grab them and kiss them, to be admired for their Appearances.
I don't wear make-up because it objectifies me and because i've been suckered into a society and mental state that makes me feel inadequate..
I do it for the same reasons I work out, I like to look nice, and if i can enhance my perceived "beauty" to higher levels, then damnit I'm going to do it, because thinking people enjoy looking at me boosts my confidence - Same story for anything non sexually related, like Starcraft, if it's possible to be taken more seriously in the community by posting on teamliquid, then people, including me, are likely to do it. (on top of all the connection and experience building :D)
I've kind of gone off point here a little bit, but i hope the justifications for my viewpoints have somewhat come out with these words.
And I'd be intrigued to hear more about the differences between American/European views of women and sexuality too, I'm of the opinion that there are very few differences between them, at least in England and "The US", although my only first hand experience of the US is new york and boston, neither places i'd connect to modesty and old fashioned values. (i have a limited view of the country for sure)
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Strippers would be fine if you were expecting them, but seriously, if what I got at home is good, and it is, why the crap do I want to sit around a bunch of people I grew up with and get an erection? If I'm with my lady, that's when I want to get turned on, when I can do something about it. When I'm surrounded by my guy friends from high school, it's more fun to kick back a few and catch up.
And, since not having strippers is more generally accepted than having strippers sprung on you, yeah, the organizer screwed up. If someone sent out an invitation to a reunion and specifically mentioned that there wouldn't be strippers, you might crack a joke or two, but you'd probably think something along the lines of: I wasn't expecting any.
Still funny since it happened to someone else, still hilarious even if it had happened to me.
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On December 14 2010 21:43 ShadeR wrote:
I suppose gay men might feel excluded?
Edit: but there was the naked guy..
Well it was an all boy school (meant sarcasticly),
But while I do find the stripers inappropriate, I wouldn't mind.
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Not okay, even if guys only. If it were me I'd go, but I have friends who wouldn't and/or would feel very awkward. This isn't just a bunch of buddies doing whatever, it's a class reunion. Telling them to "lighten up" is selfish and immature.
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No. Just no -_-
At minimum least warning should have been given out with invitation. When I think of High School reunion, the word prostitute fails to automatically re-associate with the event you know?
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I've seen 4chan, I've seen the rate me threads, and the "tits or gtfo", I've seen white knights and "rape threads", and I've also come to learn that this just doesn't represent the real thoughts the posters have, its just for kicks, to get a rise out of others. In real life a lot of them tend to be lonely, quite sensitive and nice and would love to just talk to another human being for a while.
I think this separation of the virtual self from the "actual" self is pretty dubious. The comments and actions people make online are just a part of them as how they'd act in your presence. Yes there's a big difference between say someone using racial slurs in a game of DOTA and someone using them in person, but they're still inappropriate regardless. The whole "it's the internet" fallacy is really getting too much play IMO. If you're serious about such notions as character, then it's not a good excuse. Not digging on you per se, but every time I see this argument I have to grit my teeth.
As to the OPs event, not everyone wants to have sex involved in every aspect of their lives. Maybe they just wanted to see what everyone was up to? It's ok to be heterosexual and find it inappropriate. Whether it's offensive or not, well I'm not going near that one.
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Canada11379 Posts
So if so many people are like FUCK YEAH STRIPPERS! Then, would it be such a big deal to mention that strippers is going to be on the agenda ahead of time? After all, it's not such big deal right? Just put it on the invite.
At least then, everyone knows what they're getting into- girlfriends and wives included. Because it's just strippers.
I would want to know if there were strippers and wouldn't bother coming. If in that situation, I would have walked out. I wouldn't be offended, but I'd leave. But I suspect there'd be another 10 that are kinda uncomfortable with the concept, but won't leave.
So save your reunion buddies the discomfort and put it right up front rather than springing it on everybody part way through- or have an after-party or whatever.
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If it's an all male school then I don't see the problem tbh.
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wf who has 5 year reunions, and it was all guys and all of you complained about strippers?? Was this a homsexual boarding school or something? Otherwise I see this as Very very appropriate. A bunch of guys hanging out drinking/partying, is the only appropriate time to have it. Sounds more like some 5 year old grudges were brought back to the surface. I doubt he forced everyone to get a lap dance.
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Canada11379 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:56 Roflhaxx wrote:
If it's an all male school then I don't see the problem tbh.
So if girls were there, it would be a problem?
If so, then what about any guys that are going home to girlfriends or wives?
Is there a difference between those two scenarios/ would it change if the girlfriends and wives were present during the strip show?
If there is a difference, then we have an interesting contradiction on what is a problem and what isn't.
But if it truly isn't a problem, then let everyone know. Maybe the turn-out will be even bigger, who knows. If it isn't a problem, don't hide it.
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On December 15 2010 08:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 07:56 Roflhaxx wrote:
If it's an all male school then I don't see the problem tbh. So if girls were there, it would be a problem? If so, then what about any guys that are going home to girlfriends or wives? Is there a difference between those two scenarios/ would it change if the girlfriends and wives were present during the strip show? If there is a difference, then we have an interesting contradiction on what is a problem and what isn't. But if it truly isn't a problem, then let everyone know. Maybe the turn-out will be even bigger, who knows. If it isn't a problem, don't hide it.
If you read the OP he said that none of them were married, and yes ofcourse it would (gf) who would wanna get a lapdance with your gf watching. And if you dont want a lapdance then just don't get one its easy as that.
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Im confused though, weren't the strippers for the after party? You know an optional get together for afterwards?
Because if so this whole discussion is ridiculous, it's called an after party for a reason.
If I read it wrong I don't know what to think, finding it difficult to really care one way or another way.
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Am I the only one who thinks that having those strippers there is ok? Seriously, they're just strippers. It's not like a donkey show. Besides they were all men, I'd understand if there were women too, they might be offended. It's a sausage party, a few strippers are more than welcome.
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Interesting, to say the least. As aforementioned, it was an "after party." Mr. "I claim no purity" did not have to attend, but were people told beforehand that there would be strippers?
The right to express his opinion is...well, his right. He also had the right to leave when the strippers began they're routine, but didn't. Perhaps he was expressing his guilt for having enjoyed it? Maybe others there felt the same and he was speaking for them as well?
I've never heard of strippers being commissioned for reunions; however, as it was an all-male gathering I don't see anything absurdly wrong with it. There are far worse things in this world.
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On December 15 2010 07:44 Hesmyrr wrote:
No. Just no -_-
At minimum least warning should have been given out with invitation. When I think of High School reunion, the word prostitute fails to automatically re-associate with the event you know?
Are all strippers in Canada prostitutes? I've got a take a trip up there sometime.
I also don't associate stripper with 5-year hs reunion; however, I think it'd be pretty awesome for a 20 min strip show to appear at the afterparty. It's like a bachelor party surprise. But I understand that there'll likely be a few naysayers who would be put off, so it's probably not a good idea to just spring that kind of surprise on people. But it's not that big a deal imo if it's only 20 mins at the afterparty for something that lasted until 5am. But maybe it was some religious school seeing as it's an "all male" reunion. Goddamn...an all male reunion...sign me up :/
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ProtossGirl: It seems to me that what you say is a perfect example of what aidnai is saying. Because of the way society is currently, you appearences is something that you are particularly aware of, and if you can do anything to improve them, you will. It's not that there isn't a chance that appearances could steal mean something to you if society was different, it's simply about degree. You say that it is, in fact, something you draw confidence from. Instead, many other things could be impotant to you instead, if society was different. What is the problem with this, you might ask. One might say that it puts you into a specific role, wanting to be the pretty girl, instead of many other versions of yourself (yes, soceity norms could also dictate the importance of being a good Starcraft player). You might object: what's the problem? It's natural to me. I'm happy with it. And this is where aidnai might say that, objectively, it has consequences for how women in general are treated in society, devaluating them (an I'm sure you both agree that women and men should have equal worth in society). I'm not sure if that's where you "men should dominate women" sentiment comes in, but I don't see the connection.
I would say that, if this is the case aidnai is making, he is wrong. I think that the emphasis on sex appeal is empowering women. Combined with independence, it acts as a great way for women to manipulate and to promote themselves. The pretty ones, you might say, but it does in general give much more voice to the needs of women, causing the men to pay more attention to this. I think the reason that a lesser percentage of women possess positions of power is mostly due to tradition and men within closed communities giving each other the position. All things that will slowly change in time. With the trends I observe currently, it is likely that women will do somewhat better than men in the working market in the future.
Instead, I would say that the problem here lies in the increased sexualisation in society. Not related to gender, but general interaction. More is focused on sexual relations, appearances, sexual prowess. Many relationships and much interaction is saturated by this. I'm sure many will say: So what, sex is great. And that's where the outlook that you mention comes in. The way I see it, if we change the way we interact, we also change our personalities. And the way I see it, the changes going on are leaning towards the superficial, and also alienates some groups in society. And, I guess, these things being important to me, I pay close attention to that.
You might say that the sexualization of society is one reason I don't like stripping, with it being a symbol af that. However, it's only a little part of it. I also watch porn, and even if I'm not fond of the industry as such, I normally don't mind watching it. I'm very focused on sex (on part of my instincts, I'm sure), but I refuse to let it play too big a part in how a live my life. But what's more important in why I don't like stripping is, as I mentioned before, the situation. While porn sometimes allows for women to express themselves and actually enjoy themselves, stripping is typically tied in with a customer-employee power balance. I think it's hard to express the suddleties of what the act of stripping for money communicates, but in many of the cases the strippers are indulged in an action where they submit to the men. They try as best they can to please or appease them by fully exposing and selling themselves. It's body language, it's power balance. And this is a pattern of behaviour easily replicated if it's common-place and common practise. If nothing else, then the women stripping are subject to and indulged in this kind of behaviour. Of course, some do it because the genuinely just like having the full attention of the audience and appreciate showing off their body, but they only engage in the demaning act of stripping because it's accepted. And then there is the other point that for me, personally, I don't like associations that this stripping promotes. Probably because I want women to be strong and independent, not cater to the sexual demands of men.
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My point is, I believe stripping is a disgraceful, demeaning, and disgusting effect of the chauvinist society we live in. Feminists have secured women's suffrage, and they have secured many other legal rights for women, but they have a long way to go in combating shitty attitudes like yours.
lol what a stupid post. Strippers exist because there is an inherent demand for them. You know that there are male strippers right? Is that our societies sexism towards men expressing themselves?
No of course not. Modern Feminism is mainly built around combating matriarchal institutions that underprivelage women. It isn't about combating mens innately higher sex drive, and working to repress.
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It doesn't sound like an afterparty. Sure, it's after the party, but going to the pub seems to be the afterparty.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I won't comment on the morality, but it is at the very least super super awkward.
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There are a lot of terrible things that exist because there is a demand for them, that doesn't make them right.
Selling weapons to third world countries?
Drug dealing?
Slave dealing?
These things all exist in the world today, and by your argument they're OK. Several folks put in some real time putting together heartfelt reasoning on why they believe this is wrong. The least one could do when disagreeing with them is to not call them stupid.
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lol totally inappropriate for a school reunion
hilarious and awesome, but obviously there are going to be people who are upset
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EPT
