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On November 29 2010 18:27 Ballistixz wrote:
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
First of all, noone said you wouldn't feel anything at all being circucised. Of course you still feel plenty of pleasure, the point is you would feel more had you not had this "extra skin" removed.
Second of all, your argument is that apparently it doesn't make a difference. The problem is that you're wrong, because if nothing else sex will forever be less pleasurable. Furthermore as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there's no reversal. Once it's done it's done.
On November 29 2010 19:39 Zidane wrote:
It's harder for a chick to give you a bj if you're uncircumsized. But from what I understand, circumsized dicks are also prone to forming calluses because there is no foreskin protecting the head over the years - which could lead to loss in sensitivity for the guy.
It already did, by having nerves removed in the first place.
As a bonus for all those people who think the word mutilate is being used as a shockword;
mu·ti·late (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.
It's the definition of what circucision is. There's also way too much general assumptions and falsehood flying around this thread with no sources what so ever to back up the claims. Please tell me why in the world STDs/STIs would be prevented or reduced by removing the foreskin? And by "tell me" I mean both logically and provide a survey or, more appropriately, a study.
You guys need to realize that there's a lot of misinformation and propaganda flying around for the pro-circumcision side especially. Be it for religious, traditional or "medical" reasons. Just grabbing random statements you've read somewhere sometime written by someone doesn't make it true nor a good argument to jab with.
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On November 29 2010 20:02 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 18:27 Ballistixz wrote:
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all. First of all, noone said you wouldn't feel anything at all being circucised. Of course you still feel plenty of pleasure, the point is you would feel more had you not had this "extra skin" removed. Second of all, your argument is that apparently it doesn't make a difference. The problem is that you're wrong, because if nothing else sex will forever be less pleasurable. Furthermore as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there's no reversal. Once it's done it's done.
so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer.
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On November 29 2010 19:00 qoiN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 18:27 Ballistixz wrote:
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth... Circumcision is a process that can't be undone, right? So then there's two alternatives: - be selfish and do not let your child have any say at all and chop his foreskin off, he can't change this decision later in life or - wait till he's older and let him decide himself whether or not he wants to circumcise himself. I prefer the latter.
I'm guessing you were not circumcised at an old age...
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On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like.
i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies.
that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we)
if someone could gather statistics about + Show Spoiler + in men, im pretty sure US would be the first there but just as well the overcompenstion can go towards violence.
dont chop up the nerves! it leaves the receptors hanging and the brain recicles them. one can end up asociating pleasure with some fked up shit.
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On November 29 2010 20:28 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like. i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies. that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we) if someone could gather statistics about + Show Spoiler + in men, im pretty sure US would be the first there but just as well the overcompenstion can go towards violence. dont chop up the nerves! it leaves the receptors hanging and the brain recicles them. one can end up asociating pleasure with some fked up shit.
i hope you are being sarcastic.
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On November 29 2010 20:21 Ballistixz wrote:
so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer.
Where did this discussion about parental hatred come from? Concidering you're brining it up it's becoming quite clear to me at least that at some level you obviously do have some issues with this whole business, be it because you're wondering about the what-ifs or something else.
Either way, this thread nor the issue at hand is about resentment against parents by their children who disapprove of having had a circumcision done to them. It's about the fact that it should be the child's choice in the first place and whether this should be put in to law or not.
http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html
About sensation loss, among other things. This page also brings up that boys actually die from circumcisions. Keep in mind that it's a rarity when done by legitimate and certified doctors or religious leaders as they know what they're doing. Fun fact none the less.
Anyway, back to you. You say that it's already done so you shouldn't ponder over it because you can't reverse it. Great, you're fucked and even better you accept it and you don't suffer from it. Two things though that you seem to not have concidered. There's obviously people who disapprove of having been robbed their foreskin. So although you don't mind a lot of others do and can't do anything about it. Secondly, just because it happened to you and it's too late for you doesn't mean it's too late for others, does it?
Edit: I really do recommend the link I posted. It has sources to all its claims and all kinds of crazy unlike the general statements made in this thread. (Not aimed at you Ballistixz).
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Mind numbing that this is so accepted in the US and other countries, another case of indoctrination. Get them kids before they can speak for themselves. And in this case it's even a form of branding.
To people defending this, how do you feel about places where they mutilate womens private parts? This is ok because it is backed by your religion?
Makes me sick
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On November 29 2010 20:02 HellRoxYa wrote:
Please tell me why in the world STDs/STIs would be prevented or reduced by removing the foreskin? And by "tell me" I mean both logically and provide a survey or, more appropriately, a study.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0802556
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On November 29 2010 20:33 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 20:28 xM(Z wrote:On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like. i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies. that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we) if someone could gather statistics about + Show Spoiler + in men, im pretty sure US would be the first there but just as well the overcompenstion can go towards violence. dont chop up the nerves! it leaves the receptors hanging and the brain recicles them. one can end up asociating pleasure with some fked up shit. i hope you are being sarcastic.
i dont do sarcasm on the internet
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Regardless of how Atheist you are, circumcisions help with keeping your junk clean....
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On November 29 2010 20:36 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 20:21 Ballistixz wrote:
so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer. Where did this discussion about parental hatred come from? Concidering you're brining it up it's becoming quite clear to me at least that at some level you obviously do have some issues with this whole business, be it because you're wondering about the what-ifs or something else. Either way, this thread nor the issue at hand is about resentment against parents by their children who disapprove of having had a circumcision done to them. It's about the fact that it should be the child's choice in the first place and whether this should be put in to law or not. http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.htmlAbout sensation loss, among other things. This page also brings up that boys actually die from circumcisions. Keep in mind that it's a rarity when done by legitimate and certified doctors or religious leaders as they know what they're doing. Fun fact none the less. Anyway, back to you. You say that it's already done so you shouldn't ponder over it because you can't reverse it. Great, you're fucked and even better you accept it and you don't suffer from it. Two things though that you seem to not have concidered. There's obviously people who disapprove of having been robbed their foreskin. So although you don't mind a lot of others do and can't do anything about it. Secondly, just because it happened to you and it's too late for you doesn't mean it's too late for others, does it? Edit: I really do recommend the link I posted. It has sources to all its claims and all kinds of crazy unlike the general statements made in this thread. (Not aimed at you Ballistixz).
huh? i have no issues with the procedure itself at all. and no, i have never once in my life wondered what it was liked to have a uncircumcised penis. as i have constantly said i have no problem with it at all. i have great sex and great orgasms so there is no problem in that department either.
my main beef is the severity ppl are escalating this whole situation to. i know very well people disapprove of having there foreskin taken, and like you said it can never be undone. but you know what you can do instead? not have the procedure done to your own kids. if you believe they should have the choice then give them that choice. like i said in my very first post in this thread, its entirely the decision of the parent.
there is no reasons to go to such extremes as to banning it and protesting against it. if you feel that strongly about it then dont have it done to your child. i never once in this thread approved or disapproved of circumcision. I have been neutral on the entire thing.
i just do not understand why people think its torture/mutilation of the child.
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And that's the point of this law, to give them that choice.
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Unless there is some shockingly sensible reason to ban something, I'm pretty much opposed to anything being banned.
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It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
I mean just because it's socially accepted doesn't make it any less extreme than removing toenails or earlobes. Yet I imagine you'd get locked up pretty darn quick for lopping the earlobes off your newborn... why is a part of their penis treated with such less concern?
Just saying.
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On November 29 2010 20:55 HellRoxYa wrote:
And that's the point of this law, to give them that choice.
ya... forcing it on society because of different views. fuck everyone that does want there child circumcised because of religious beliefs or other beliefs right?
with this law you are taking away someones choice and decision with there child so they can have the decision made when they are an adult themselves. idk about you, but if i did not want my child circumcised then i would not have him circumcised. i do not need a law to force that on me just in case i even thought about it differently.
but who cares right? your view is that its wrong and therefore you will punish everyone that thinks otherwise. thats exactly what that law is doing after all.
On November 29 2010 21:03 Almania wrote:
It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
I mean just because it's socially accepted doesn't make it any less extreme than removing toenails or earlobes. Yet I imagine you'd get locked up pretty darn quick for lopping the earlobes off your newborn... why is a part of their penis treated with such less concern?
Just saying.
you cannot compare a earlobe to foreskin....
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On November 29 2010 20:43 TALegion wrote:
Regardless of how Atheist you are, circumcisions help with keeping your junk clean....
and water does what?
what you said its only half true anyway because you dick continues to secreet smegma even after circumcision (to a lesser extent) but it just gets "wiped" by your underwear.
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But shouldn't it be the child's decision(when they are old enough) when it's not "directly beneficial"?
I don't see how this is so hard.
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On November 29 2010 20:59 w_Ender_w wrote:
Unless there is some shockingly sensible reason to ban something, I'm pretty much opposed to anything being banned.
I think this:
On November 29 2010 21:03 Almania wrote:
It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
is a shockingly sensible reason.
On November 29 2010 21:04 Ballistixz wrote:
ya... forcing it on society because of different views. fuck everyone that does want there child circumcised because of religious beliefs or other beliefs right?
To be honest, yes, that's exactly how I feel. But then I never really liked religion to begin with. If you're going to use religion as an argument then there's all kinds of things you could exempt it from, even up to the extremes of murder. That's a bit of another discussion though.
On November 29 2010 21:04 Ballistixz wrote:
with this law you are taking away someones choice and decision with there child so they can have the decision made when they are an adult themselves. idk about you, but if i did not want my child circumcised then i would not have him circumcised. i do not need a law to force that on me just in case i even thought about it differently.
but who cares right? your view is that its wrong and therefore you will punish everyone that thinks otherwise. thats exactly what that law is doing after all.
I care a lot. In general I have very liberal views. However, circumcision is quite a big deal in my eyes and the person having it done has no say at all in it, and never will. Unlike the decision to feed your child macaronies or rice this decision has much more long lasting effects and should, to me, always be up to the person himself. I'm not sure legislation is the right way to go in the long run, but if it gets the debate in the U.S. going then it's more than a good thing. It can always be overturned in the future.
On November 29 2010 14:56 Slow Motion wrote:
If there is no memory of pain and no subconscious trauma from it (I'm assuming this, but really have no idea) then what does the fact that the pain did occur matter?
This is the most hilarious thing said in this thread, and I'll show you why.
"So I hit my child when he/she was a baby a few times. There was no lasting injuries or anything, just a bit of pain. My child doesn't remember a thing so what does it matter?"
Yeah, man, child abuse is alright as long as they don't remember it.
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Parents shouldn't have any right of decisionmaking about modifying my body, thank you very much. I don't want a piercing, no tattoo and no circumcision just because they felt like it. I'd like to make my own choices.
Apart fromt that; I'm uncircumcised and got 2 good stories about it;
First of all; my foreskin was a little, just a little too tight. Nothing medically wrong there, I could still pull it down and clean all the edges and stuff, but apparantly when I had intercourse to hard, it could rip a little. And it did, with my first GF, we were having fun, and suddenly blood came out. After a few moments wondering why, because she didn´t have her period yet, we realized that it came from me.
The, I don´t know if it´s translated this way, but I´m at work and can´t just look it up with all of the pictures I´ll probably see then, but the bridle (The connection between the foreskin and the front of my penis) ripped. It did hurt, and couldn´t have sex for a few days, but it healed perfectly. And I´m still glad I wasn´t circumsized, wouldn´t want that for any money in the world.
Secondly+ about the posters who say that girls don´t like uncircumsized penisses etc. My current gf never paid attention at school and henceforth didn´t know the difference. Her ex/boyfriend was circumsized and thus she was kinda baffled when she saw mine for the first time. However, after getting accustomed to it, she actually prefers this, because it´s funnier to play with.
So, in short:
1. Children should have the choice to decide wether or not removing parts of their body.
2. There is no medical benefit from removing the foreskin (as long as you bathe every (few) day(s) and pull the foreskin back.
3. The foreskin doesn´t protect you against STDs (who made that up)
4. Girl´s that don´t do people with foreskins are either misinformed or don´t like it the way they might not like a haircolor.
Also
my main beef is the severity ppl are escalating this whole situation to. i know very well people disapprove of having there foreskin taken, and like you said it can never be undone. but you know what you can do instead? not have the procedure done to your own kids. That doesn´t help you or the children of parent´s that might just choose to do it because of their religion (just like women´s circumcision, we don´t approve of that do we) or becuase they´re terribly misinformed about STDs etc.
EDIT
Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
SECOND EDIT
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77210
Another religious ´tradition´, yay for traditions. The funny thing is, and I quote
Clerics in mainly Shiite Iran forbid it as well, saying the practice is un-Islamic because it harms the body.
EDIT 3
I´m on a roll here, my apologies for my punctuation, I´m at work and the keyboard doesn´t have American settings, and I can´t find the proper symbols T.T
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