(CNN) -- In the California city that banned Happy Meal toys,outlawed sitting on sidewalks during daylight hours and fined residents for not sorting garbage into recycling, compost and trash, Lloyd Schofield wants to add a new law to the books in San Francisco: A ban on all male circumcisions.
Those who violate the ban could be jailed (not more than one year) or fined (not more than $1,000), under his proposal. Circumcisions even for religious reasons would not be allowed. At this point, Schofield's proposal is an idea that would have to clear several hurdles to be considered.
Schofield and like-minded advocates who call themselves "intactivists" seek to make it "unlawful to circumcise, excise, cut, or mutilate the whole or any part of the foreskin, testicles, or penis" of anyone 17 or younger in San Francisco.
The circumcision debate has passionate advocates on each side.
Your thoughts on circumcision
In some families, it's a cultural or religious tradition, or parents want sons to look like their fathers. Other parents decry it as mutilation. Medical evidence has shown mixed risks and benefits. Apart from the San Francisco proposal, circumcisions are under scientific scrutiny.
While widespread in the United States, circumcision rates could be falling, according to recent surveys. About 65 percent of American male infants born in hospitals were circumcised in 1999, according to latest data available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
While nationally the circumcision rate has remained steady, the most dramatic decline occurred in the West, where it fell from 64 percent in 1974 to 37 percent in 1999. Earlier this year, there were unconfirmed estimates that the circumcision rate had fallen to fewer than half for boys born in U.S. hospitals, The New York Times reported last summer, citing a federal report at the International AIDS Conference.
The American Academy of Pediatrics task force on circumcision has been reviewing recent research before it issues an official new position on the issue, probably next year, one panel member said. The controversy over circumcision
"In the past, we've said newborn circumcision has benefits and risks," said Dr. Douglas Diekema, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Washington. "Given the fact that neither the risks nor benefits are particularly compelling, this is a decision to be made by parents."
The American Academy of Pediatrics currently holds that there is evidence of circumcision's potential benefits, but not enough to recommend routine newborn circumcisions.
Both anti- and pro-circumcision forces have pushed their positions based on medical and quasi-health claims. Fifty years ago, people advocated circumcisions because of the false notion that it reduced masturbation, Diekema said.
"There have always been people opposed to it," he said. "One of the differences between today and 50 years ago is two primary things: Advocacy groups are better organized. They are much more vocal and the internet has allowed that expression in that way."
In San Francisco, Schofield's proposal is not a lone effort. He is part of the Bay Area intactivist group, which calls the procedure "male genital mutilation" and likens it to cutting female genitals.
Schofield's proposal has a long way to go, requiring 7,168 signatures by April next year to appear on the November 2011 ballot. Throughout the country, there have been similar measures, including a failed effort in Massachusetts earlier this year.
"It's up to the choice of the individual -- not the parents, society or religion," Schofield said. "This is a choice for body integrity. Just as females are protected from having a drop of blood drawn from their genitals, baby boys deserve the same protection."
Intactivists also say:
-- Circumcisions are not medically necessary and violate the child's body.
-- It requires a medical procedure, which carries risk of complications and pain.
-- Foreskins are part of the natural body to help protect the penis.
Proponents say:
-- Circumcision can reduce the risk of penile cancer, a rare disease.
-- It is part of traditional, religious practices in Jewish and Muslim faiths.
-- Men who are circumcised are less likely to get sexually transmitted infections such as genital herpes and human papillomavirus, according to a study of adult African men published 2009 in the New England Journal of Medicine.
Public health efforts have sought to increase circumcision rates in Africa to reduce STIs such as HIV/AIDS. It's unclear how circumcision lowers infection rates, but researchers speculate that the foreskin could foster a more favorable environment for viruses.
It's also possible to develop swelling and tenderness if the foreskin is not properly cared for.
"There are numbers of patients who had no clue what had to be done, because they didn't handle their foreskin correctly and they ended up getting adhesion," said Dr. Michael Brady, a professor of pediatrics at the Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio. "That can happen; it's not a myth."
But Brady added, "That by itself, is not reason to circumcise an infant."
Dr. Emily Blake, an obstetrician-gynecologist and mohel in New York, said a ban would limit the rights of doctors and patients, cause an undue burden on families with newborns and stand in the way of religious freedom.
"It is part of our commitment to God. We believe we do it in a very humane, loving, supportive way," said Blake, who performs religious and non-religious circumcisions for boys, as well as naming ceremonies for girls. "There are certainly many places in the world where a ban on circumcision is one of the prongs of an anti-Semitic movement -- anti-Jewish and also anti-Muslim."
A circumcision ceremony might involve just a few people, or a few hundred, along with food, readings and prayers. Babies are comforted with sugar, topical anesthetic and pain relievers, and many sleep through the circumcision, Blake said.
Removing the foreskin from a male is not an equivalent to removing the clitoris from a female, Blake said, in terms of pain or long-term effects.
"I think it's harder on the parents. We make this into a very scary, terrifying thing. Most babies do incredibly well,'" Blake said. "I've done a great job if the parents cry more than the baby does."
Most parents come to the doctor's office having already decided whether to circumcise, Diekema said. Only a small percentage of parents are undecided.
Amy Jo Jones of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, made the decision to have her two sons circumcised and it "wasn't about vanity."
After reading into the topic, Jones, writer and blogger who contributes to The Stir said: "The deciding factor for us was I wanted my son to be like his father. I didn't want him grow up and feel his body was different. It's not about how it looks or doesn't look. I knew there were some medical advantages, although it's not considered medically necessary. The deciding factor was for him feeling comfortable with body and like that of his dad."
Jesse Sterling of Albany, California, decided to not to have his 10-month-old son circumcised.
Despite his Jewish background, he said the surgery would have "put my baby through a painful situation because of some beliefs. At this point, people do it because it's a habit."
Sterling, who was not circumcised, said he was teased as a kid in school for how it looked.
"Ever since then, I was like, 'Whatever. I don't care.' Don't try to sway me, other than informing me more thoroughly," he said.
This is practically ancient era news by now in internet standards but I kept forgetting about it.
Yes, this is the same board that tried to get toys in Happy Meals banned (thread here). This proposal has a long, long way to go before being considered as actual law, but it might be the first real big move in the circumcision debate.
Basically, a guy proposes to make it flat-out illegal to circumcise anyone under the age of 17, parent approval or not. I imagine there are some medical concerns that must be considered and whatnot in the final writing, but it looks like the biggest force behind the pro-circumcision side are the religious, which is pretty interesting since it seems like a medical procedure to me.
The United States remains the last Western civilization still in favor of circumcision, which has been falling in almost all European countries, and is of noticeably lower rates in Canada. Anti-circumcision movements have been growing for decades in the US as a result of this, and this, should it become law, would be the first big "intactivist" victory. This is also kind of interesting since female circumcision is illegal in the US, but the legality of male circumcision has never really been fought over (except for this bill, apparently).
Thoughts? There is a strong international presence on this website, so it would be interesting to get some non-American insight on this issue. Here in the US it's widely seen as "normal" to be circumcised and many people prescribe by the beliefs of it being "cleaner" or "safer", but there are also a large number of people who apparently just do it to conform to societal standards, which seems like not very solid reasoning behind permanent medical modification to me.
Sounds good to me. It never made any sense to me that it was acceptable to alter a child's body in such a way loooooooong before he even had the mental capacity to understand what was happening or why, let alone consent to it.
The religious basis for it had to do with lower overall levels of hygiene at the time. Now, it's hardly important at all since it's considered to be a basic standard of living to be able to bathe at least once every day or so. In any case, as the article cited, it's not terribly important either way.
I don't really get why these people are organizing an advocacy group for this. They need to find something better to do with their time, honestly...
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Circumcisions as a whole are pointless and in this day and age only religiously backed, however in our current society it is an overwhelming norm and if wasn't hard enough to be a teenager already, try doing it with a dick that looks different from everyone else.
Another case of the government needing to stay the fuck out of my house.
Side Note: It is possible to regrow the foreskin that is removed and make yourself "uncircumcised" without the need for surgery if you really want to.
Side Side Note: The religious backing was never because of a hygiene issue, the skin was given as a sacrifice to your god showing your loyalty. (Not sure why your god wants parts of little boy penises, but whatever)
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
It's really a big thing for jews and muslim and banning it would definitely piss a lot of people off. I don't know about all the benefits but if it isn't harmful then why ban it? Think of it as playing starcraft; it's not necessary, it's not harmful and it makes a lot of people happy.
What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
On November 29 2010 13:09 Beneather wrote: What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
The issue with that argument is parents are naturally stupid, and in their attempts to do what is best for their child they often believe shit they wouldn't normally fall for, such as the whole diseases and other medical crap which is just flat out not true.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
Sounds good. I don't think a parent should have the power to mutilate their children, but supposedly if it's illegal people will go to back alley places and it will be even more dangerous
On November 29 2010 13:26 Jarhead wrote: I agree with Krigwin. Watch the procedure some time, the baby doesn't look happy.
If you turn 18 and want it done, go for it. I just wish I hadn't had my genitals mutilated as a child.
Babies aren't going to look happy when they get vaccines either. Should we not give them shots? Are you going to wait until kids turn 18 to medicate them or give them shots? Kids don't like getting shots either.
Oh come on now. Genital mutilation is a bit of a graphic exaggeration. It's beneficial for the baby, and it does no harm to the genitals.
oh maan, this thread could get roudy... but I really don't think they should ban circumsion that just seems silly, dont have a good arguement on my stance yet, as I'm too tired. But thats my 1 cent.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
"may propose and under age of 17" are the key works here. Whether it should pass it or not depends entirely on whether circumcision is better than not having it done. If there isn't any proof that it's better then I'd agree because then it becomes the decision of the person who is undergoing the operation.
Theres no way they can pass this. It restricts religious freedom to much. I can understand banning some religious practices(human sacrifice is a litte crazy) but circumcision is completely harmless. While its hygiene benefits are arguable, i dont see the point in banning it at all
On November 29 2010 13:00 Zealotdriver wrote: I wonder how this would interact with religious freedom laws. Jewish tradition involves circumcision. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bris
Well the FLDS Church are not allowed to have teen brides and practice polygamy. Why would other religions be allowed to mutilate the penis of infants?
I can recommend the Penn&Teller Bullshit! episode on this topic.
On November 29 2010 13:09 Beneather wrote: What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
The issue with that argument is parents are naturally stupid, and in their attempts to do what is best for their child they often believe shit they wouldn't normally fall for, such as the whole diseases and other medical crap which is just flat out not true.
Governments can be just as stupid as the stupidest of parents, why do you think governmental intervention is the right choice?
Banning circumcision would be like banning piercings, if you disregard the religious implications of the former, they are both purely aesthetic procedures, with limited, if any benefit in today's society apart from 'fitting in.' + Show Spoiler +
Clarification: I'm comparing childhood circumcision to childhood piercings, the analogy doesn't quite hold up when applied to adult situations, since that's not what's being debated anyway
Edit: But, this is SanFrancisco and they are free to do whatever they please+ Show Spoiler +
, like banning people from sitting/laying down on sidewalks from the hours of 7 am and 11 pm, happy meal toys, and many more...
Edit2: By "purely aesthetic" I define the procedures as ultimately (aside from infection and extreme cases) irrelevant to the overall health of the person, they are just so that the modified part of the body can look different. [Further research on the medical effects of circumcision are not too conclusive, some suggesting that there is relatively little change in "penile stimulation," while some suggest both of the alternatives.]
And circumcision should be a choice made by the people themselves. A young boy shouldn't have to be circumcised just because he parents wanted him to for whatever reason. The boy should have a say.
And if the circumcision is done for religious reasons, what happens if the kid ends up converting religions or becoming agnostic/atheist? Then it was for nothing :O
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
I just don't think your argument that "the baby didn't look happy" was a good reason for a baby not to get a medical treatment that apparently has the potential to help them. And I think it's pretty similar to a vaccination. Vaccines have the potential to help, although they could technically be pointless needle-pricks that "harm the baby". The baby may not ever be in actual danger of getting hepatitis, yet he may get the vaccination just to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
On November 29 2010 13:33 killanator wrote: Theres no way they can pass this. It restricts religious freedom to much. I can understand banning some religious practices(human sacrifice is a litte crazy) but circumcision is completely harmless. While its hygiene benefits are arguable, i dont see the point in banning it at all
On November 29 2010 13:09 Beneather wrote: What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
The issue with that argument is parents are naturally stupid, and in their attempts to do what is best for their child they often believe shit they wouldn't normally fall for, such as the whole diseases and other medical crap which is just flat out not true.
Governments can be just as stupid as the stupidest of parents, why do you think governmental intervention is the right choice?
Banning circumcision would be like banning piercings, if you disregard the religious implications of the former, they are both purely aesthetic procedures, with limited, if any benefit in today's society apart from 'fitting in.'
How do you define "purely aesthetic"?
Come on, throw me a bone here guys, you can't just go and say outright it's harmless. Really? A painful (scientifically proven) medical procedure that cuts off a piece of someone's body that serves many functions and results in permanent loss of neurosensitivity is "harmless" or "purely aesthetic"? I must be operating by different definitions than you guys. Please elucidate on these statements.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
I just don't think your argument that "the baby didn't look happy" was a good reason for a baby not to get a medical treatment that apparently has the potential to help them. And I think it's pretty similar to a vaccination. Vaccines have the potential to help, although they could technically be pointless needle-pricks that "harm the baby". The baby may not ever be in actual danger of getting hepatitis, yet he may get the vaccination just to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
What if the circumcision backfires? What if the kid loses his penis because of it? How is that protecting the child?
I dunno, its kinda odd reading this thread seeing so many guys saying they wish they weren't cut because it looks weird.
I didn't grow up seing a lotta dicks except in porn, but I can say that I always thought mine looked weird because it WASN'T cut, and it wasn't til I was with a few girls til I stopped caring.
And obviously now that I'm old enough to remember pain and experiences, it's not something I'd get done, but I'm not sure wha tmy take is on this. Do more guys who are cut wish they were uncut, or vice versa, or just not care. Possibly the psychological effects growing up seeing yours as different can hurt your confidence a lot in the later life.
There is an interesting parallel between this issue and the controversies surrounding Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions. Basically Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Acts 15:28, among other passages, as showing blood transfusions being against God's law.
In Canada the government has forced children to get the medical procedure over the wishes of their parents (and in some cases the child too) stating that they have to strike a balance between their duties to religious freedom and their duties to protect the people.
Population polls and government policy has been on the side of giving transfusions. Something tells me that if the JW had the same presence in Canada as the Jewish population has in America, that girl would not have received the transfusion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions
I'm sorry to put this arguement into the thread, but from my experience, no girl has ever had a problem giving a blowjob to a circumcised penis, but I KNOW some girls have some issues with uncircumcised ones. (this comes from looks and cleanliness)
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
I just don't think your argument that "the baby didn't look happy" was a good reason for a baby not to get a medical treatment that apparently has the potential to help them. And I think it's pretty similar to a vaccination. Vaccines have the potential to help, although they could technically be pointless needle-pricks that "harm the baby". The baby may not ever be in actual danger of getting hepatitis, yet he may get the vaccination just to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
What if the circumcision backfires? What if the kid loses his penis because of it? How is that protecting the child?
It just doesn't seem fair to me.
Don't all medical procedures carry some level of risk? Out of curiosity, what percentage of circumcisions have ended with the loss of the entire penis? Can you find this statistic please, since you brought it up? I don't understand how the removal of the foreskin could result in this happening, but you're claiming it can. If it's a significant percentage, I would consider re-evaluating my position; I was of the mindset that it is a relatively safe procedure. Please just show me a reliable statistic.
I think the medical benefits of circumcision are negligible compared to the benefits of vaccinations, so the comparison is pointless. Otherwise people in Europe would die from stuff caused by not being circumcised, and I'm not aware of this.
Outlawing would be extremely offensive to some religions, so I don't think it will (or should) be done. However, I think the entire point of this proposal is to at least try to get rid of misinformation like this:
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks? Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
No offense DarkPlasmaBall, but a lot of american children get mutilated because their parents are as misinformed as you. And I'm not saying that's your fault, that's exactly the reason why there should be talk about this. So even if it doesn't become illegal, people become aware that it's a largely pointless procedure from a medical point of view.
The comparison of a circumcision to a vaccination is completely faulty. A vaccination is a procedure that is relatively painless and known to be beneficial. A circumcision is the removal of a natural body part (that is there for a reason, I might add), extremely painful and may or may not be beneficial.
On November 29 2010 13:44 forgotten0ne wrote: some girls have some issues with uncircumcised ones.
Uh....never heard of or experienced that, and dunno why that argument makes ANY difference in this thread if you genuinely think about it. Complete side note and pretty stupid to say.
I've heard of girls that won't go out with a guy for the length of their hair, or the color of their eyes or skin or something, doesn't really mean that you should change it or more related, have it outlawed
On November 29 2010 13:09 Beneather wrote: What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
If it was tradition to chop off a toe would that still be acceptable? To be honest I think its kinda sick that this choice can be made before the child is old enough to decide for himself - if you want to go for it once you are of an age where such a decision can be made then thats fine, just as most everything involving your own body should be, but to have it done at birth is not right =[
I don't think this is a good idea. Keep in mind, like with abortion, this may happen through more shady means, and that wouldn't be very safe. Also it's not that bad medically. I'm not sure how I see it as far as religion goes, other than that it's enough of a reason to prevent it from passing entirely.
I am not a lawyer, but, if I'm not mistaken, the Free Exercise Clause in the U.S. Constitution focuses solely on the fact that the government cannot recognize any establishment of religion. There is no real justification for either allowing or restricting parents from doing something with their kids simply because it would restrict their religious freedom. It simply comes down to whether or not the parents have a right to perform bodily harm for the "good" of their child depending on how much "good" is being done.
Also, there have been a few occurrences where laws have been prevented due to disparate impact upon members of a certain religion, but I forget which cases were decided for or against this interpretation of the constitution. One of them had to do with forcing all stores to close on Sundays when different religions observe a day of rest of different days. I believe in that case the state had an overriding interest in maintaining a certain sense of economic order that was more important than the disparate impact upon Jews that observed their day of rest on Saturdays instead of Sundays (they were forced to close on two days of the week). Simply arguing for religious freedom is not really a valid way to against this.
On November 29 2010 13:44 forgotten0ne wrote: I'm sorry to put this arguement into the thread, but from my experience, no girl has ever had a problem giving a blowjob to a circumcised penis, but I KNOW some girls have some issues with uncircumcised ones. (this comes from looks and cleanliness)
Sorry, but I had to throw it out there.
Yeah, girls will stop giving head if this actually becomes a law.
On November 29 2010 13:40 Jarhead wrote: Ok, then I did not make it clear that I meant that it is an EXTREMELY painful operation. Not a needle prick. Skin is cut off of the penis.
And again, the health benefits for the baby are very questionable. Worried your two year old might get STDs?
First of all, yeah, I'm sure it hurts. I get it. I was circumcized. I *totally* remember how it felt! Except I don't. But pain isn't a reason to not do a medical operation that's beneficial to someone, or else we'd be banning all surgery and operations on babies.
And why the heck do you think STDs are the only thing that circumcision helps protect against? Here are a few more that circumcision helps protect against, including in babies: -Urinary tract infections -Balanatis (inflammation of the glans) -Penile cancer
Protecting against STDs is not the only justification for getting a circumcision, so it's not like getting the foreskin removed is only relevant when you become a teenager or older. I still think that adults should be protecting their babies from the above risks.
On November 29 2010 13:48 Superiorwolf wrote: The comparison of a circumcision to a vaccination is completely faulty. A vaccination is a procedure that is relatively painless and known to be beneficial. A circumcision is the removal of a natural body part (that is there for a reason, I might add), extremely painful and may or may not be beneficial.
Circumcision is done while the child is a baby so they do not have to live with the traumatic experience of having their foreskin cut off for the rest of their life, they cannot remember something that happened when they are so young.
It is known to be beneficial in that it lowers the risk of STDs and makes the genitals cleaner. Its also a religious practice thats been performed since forever ago, i dont see why the government is trying to interfere with religion, ugh thats never a good idea.
On November 29 2010 13:44 Sufficiency wrote: I don't see how a city-wide ban can mean anything.
If I want my kids circumcised, can't I just go to some other city to do it?
If this becomes law, practically it will probably make little difference in the short term, but the whole point is to get some major talks going on this topic, which could lead to some bigger changes.
On November 29 2010 13:40 Jarhead wrote: Ok, then I did not make it clear that I meant that it is an EXTREMELY painful operation. Not a needle prick. Skin is cut off of the penis.
And again, the health benefits for the baby are very questionable. Worried your two year old might get STDs?
First of all, yeah, I'm sure it hurts. I get it. I was circumcized. I *totally* remember how it felt! Except I don't. But pain isn't a reason to not do a medical operation that's beneficial to someone, or else we'd be banning all surgery and operations on babies.
And why the heck do you think STDs are the only thing that circumcision helps protect against? Here are a few more that circumcision helps protect against, including in babies: -Urinary tract infections -Balanatis (inflammation of the glans) -Penile cancer
Protecting against STDs is not the only justification for getting a circumcision, so it's not like getting the foreskin removed is only relevant when you became a teenager or later. I still think that adults should be protecting their babies from the above risks.
While it is true that circumcision can lower risks (which is not the same as protecting against) of the things that you mention, there are many ways of reducing risk and a minor, almost negligible possible benefit is not really a good enough reason for such a drastic medical procedure. In your comparison to vaccination for instance, well, vaccination is the only way to prevent big hitters like poliomyelitis which has no cure, but here there are many ways to prevent and in some cases even cure the diseases like urinary tract infections and STDs and whatnot.
On November 29 2010 13:09 Beneather wrote: What's the point of banning it. Even though it's not necessary shouldn't the parents allowed to choose to have their son circumcised. Plus it's a tradition and the parents mostly choose the best for their child if they really love their child.
If it was tradition to chop off a toe would that still be acceptable? To be honest I think its kinda sick that this choice can be made before the child is old enough to decide for himself - if you want to go for it once you are of an age where such a decision can be made then thats fine, just as most everything involving your own body should be, but to have it done at birth is not right =[
This is off-topic (in my own thread) but Jinro good luck in the GSL I am rooting for you!
This just in. San francisco decides to ban vaccinations since there is an inherent risk involved in vaccinating young children under 18 since they have not made the decision to be vaccinated for themselves.
The only medical reason for uncircumcision i can think of is if the boy is growing up in a nudist colony on the beach, otherwise it makes no difference.
On November 29 2010 13:42 ZlaSHeR wrote: I dunno, its kinda odd reading this thread seeing so many guys saying they wish they weren't cut because it looks weird.
I didn't grow up seing a lotta dicks except in porn, but I can say that I always thought mine looked weird because it WASN'T cut, and it wasn't til I was with a few girls til I stopped caring.
And obviously now that I'm old enough to remember pain and experiences, it's not something I'd get done, but I'm not sure wha tmy take is on this. Do more guys who are cut wish they were uncut, or vice versa, or just not care. Possibly the psychological effects growing up seeing yours as different can hurt your confidence a lot in the later life.
Assumings its true that the current rate of circumcisions at American hospitals is already falling to below 50%, then this wont be an issue; you will look the same as about half the other kids, and eventually as almost every other kid.
On November 29 2010 13:53 Lightwip wrote: I don't think this is a good idea. Keep in mind, like with abortion, this may happen through more shady means, and that wouldn't be very safe. Also it's not that bad medically. I'm not sure how I see it as far as religion goes, other than that it's enough of a reason to prevent it from passing entirely.
Very true... Although as long as its only in SF I imagine people would just go out of state. Not sure if that makes the law pointless or not, it might still have a positive (from my POV) effect on people undecided on the issue.
On November 29 2010 13:40 Jarhead wrote: Ok, then I did not make it clear that I meant that it is an EXTREMELY painful operation. Not a needle prick. Skin is cut off of the penis.
And again, the health benefits for the baby are very questionable. Worried your two year old might get STDs?
First of all, yeah, I'm sure it hurts. I get it. I was circumcized. I *totally* remember how it felt! Except I don't. But pain isn't a reason to not do a medical operation that's beneficial to someone, or else we'd be banning all surgery and operations on babies.
And why the heck do you think STDs are the only thing that circumcision helps protect against? Here are a few more that circumcision helps protect against, including in babies: -Urinary tract infections -Balanatis (inflammation of the glans) -Penile cancer
Protecting against STDs is not the only justification for getting a circumcision, so it's not like getting the foreskin removed is only relevant when you become a teenager or older. I still think that adults should be protecting their babies from the above risks.
There is a lot of literature that suggests what you say is true, but here is also a lot of literature that says "we really don't know". Most countries in the developed world have stopped circumcising boys. In addition, many boys are circumcised for reasons that have nothing to do with health.
You also have to be wary of statistics. Many pro-cut places say there is a TEN TIMES GREATER occurrence of UTI for the uncut, but that only takes the rate to 1%. Hardly an epidemic.
On November 29 2010 13:45 BrickTop wrote: I think the medical benefits of circumcision are negligible compared to the benefits of vaccinations, so the comparison is pointless. Otherwise people in Europe would die from stuff caused by not being circumcised, and I'm not aware of this.
Outlawing would be extremely offensive to some religions, so I don't think it will (or should) be done. However, I think the entire point of this proposal is to at least try to get rid of misinformation like this:
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks? Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
No offense DarkPlasmaBall, but a lot of american children get mutilated because their parents are as misinformed as you. And I'm not saying that's your fault, that's exactly the reason why there should be talk about this. So even if it doesn't become illegal, people become aware that it's a largely pointless procedure from a medical point of view.
You say it's largely pointless, and yet you don't actually back it up with anything... So protection against urinary tract infection, penile cancer, and balanitis isn't that important? I personally don't care about the religious arguments (I'm non-religious), but I'm for parents making sure that their babies are cared for. I'm all for open conversation, but why do you think that babies should be more prone to the above three diseases? And please stop calling it mutilation. It's a little snip.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
I just don't think your argument that "the baby didn't look happy" was a good reason for a baby not to get a medical treatment that apparently has the potential to help them. And I think it's pretty similar to a vaccination. Vaccines have the potential to help, although they could technically be pointless needle-pricks that "harm the baby". The baby may not ever be in actual danger of getting hepatitis, yet he may get the vaccination just to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
What if the circumcision backfires? What if the kid loses his penis because of it? How is that protecting the child?
It just doesn't seem fair to me.
Don't all medical procedures carry some level of risk? Out of curiosity, what percentage of circumcisions have ended with the loss of the entire penis? Can you find this statistic please, since you brought it up? I don't understand how the removal of the foreskin could result in this happening, but you're claiming it can. If it's a significant percentage, I would consider re-evaluating my position; I was of the mindset that it is a relatively safe procedure. Please just show me a reliable statistic.
Here you go:
"The American Medical Association quotes a complication rate of 0.2%–0.6%,[13] based on the studies of Gee[39] and Harkavy.[40] These same studies are quoted by the American Academy of Pediatrics.[16] The American Academy of Family Physicians quotes a range of anywhere between 0.1% and 35%.[41] The Canadian Paediatric Society cites these results in addition to other figures ranging anywhere between 0.06% to 55%, and remark that Williams & Kapila[37] suggested that 2-10% is a realistic estimate.[42] The RACP states that the penis is lost in 1 in 1,000,000 circumcisions.[43]"
I know that this doesn't mention loss of the whole penis, but here is something:
"Activists began creating websites in the mid-1990s, and this process has continued. One such organization distributed questionnaires to circumcised men. The complaints included prominent scarring (33%), insufficient penile skin for comfortable erection (27%), erectile curvature from uneven skin loss (16%), and pain and bleeding upon erection/manipulation (17%). Psychological complaints included feelings of mutilation (60%), low self esteem/inferiority to intact men (50%), genital dysmorphia (55%), rage (52%), resentment/depression (59%), violation (46%), or parental betrayal (30%). Many respondents reported that their physical/emotional suffering impeded emotional intimacy with their partner(s), resulting in sexual dysfunction.[47] "
I don't have STD's and my junk is clean whether its cut or not lol, it's a pretty weak argument in all honesty, if people are genuinely basing the fact that people should get cut for that.
I don't think they're doing this to interfere with religion, they're doing it to interfere with a tradition that, in the definition of the term, mutilates a male before he is old enough to make the decision on his own.
Jinro makes a great point, what if for example, it was shown that you should remove your appendix when you're a baby? That is a useless organ that serves no purpose, should it be done? No, the person should make that decision on their own unless it is like a medical necessity to be removed, foreskin or appendix.
To put this into perspective, consider practices in Africa where young girls' genitals are mutilated. This practice is widely condemned by Westerners. Obviously, it is much more painful and actually dangerous than circumcision (which isn't really a health issue either way), but it does raise interesting issues about the ability of a parent to decide to mutilate a child based on a cultural/religious custom.
I think it's not worth banning circumcision (as opposed to other types of cultural mutilation) because of its innocuousness. There is a general belief in one's right to make decisions about one's own body (especially if those decisions are permanent). However, I don't think the foreskin is so important a part, in any sense, that any but an extreme minority will miss it. The argument that it's a natural part of the body doesn't seem that good when it's just a piece of skin that serves no purpose other than aesthetics.
But my opinion might change if in the future the foreskin somehow became so aesthetically important to people that not having one is considered very odd or even disgusting. Then we should let the child make that decision about his own body, considering that the decision will be permanent.
Do any of us support female genital mutilation? I assume not. Then why are we in favour of the male counterpart? The only reasons seem to be either traditional/religious or health orientated, neither of which hold much weight with me.
Traditional/religious reasons don't stick for the same reason that we don't sacrifice virgins nor allow polygamy. Many countries have grown beyond these superstitions and discarded them, often to great benefit. The decision to circumcise should be made by the one with the foreskin at an age where they are able to make it. We should not allow members of society take a knife to the flesh of a child for the reason of appeasing the teachings of our ancestors.
Health reasons are feeble fall backs in the age of proper hygiene. Two thousand years ago, it may have been a necessary precaution, but I see no reason to continue it now. It is mutilation as a preventative measure of something unlikely to occur.
Imagine that I want to cut off your newborn's ears because it will make them faster swimmers in the possibility that they are being chased by a shark. Would you consider me reasonable? Probably not. What if I tell you its a tradition of some middle eastern tribe 3000 years ago...
Perhaps it would be best to wait until the person in that flesh is able to have his own opinion.
This is a good start. While male circumsition is harmless as far as I know, it does permanently alter the body of the child, and permanent modifications to oneself should only be your own descision, and only when you're old enough to somewhat understand the consequences of your choices. Yes, the parents are your guardians and basically own you as long as you live under their roof, but that does not make you their own clay doll to mold and transform as they see fit. NOT signing this law is in effect saying exactly that - your kid's yours to fix up as you please. Want to add another arm? Perhaps a tentacle? Replace his eyes with tits? You got it!
But this should just be the first step. By far more important would be to outlaw parents having their kids go through plastic operations and botox-injections, as well as liposuctions. Any medical procedure not done in the direct benefit of a child's mental (replacement for injured skin, removal / reparation of birth defects etc) or physical health shouldn't even be considered an option.
For the entire religious thing - yea, if you're wanting to follow all the old rules of your old fairytales, you should follow 'em all. If you don't follow 'em all, forgetting the bris-one won't have Jahve turn his back on you, so don't you worry.
The referring to circumcision as mutilation almost seems to be becoming the entire argument against circumcision here. Please stop trying to appeal to emotions by using shocking terms! Many things can be argued to fall under the category of "mutilation" that are used on children, please explain what separates this from other situations!
Sorry for this, but I just got so frustrated reading this repeated term "mutilation" used as a stand alone argument. So let's have a real debate on this based in the sound logic I know you are all capable of! No sensationalist cheating!
edit: I guess my response was late. The debate has really improved from the first two pages. Keep the statistics coming guys, you rock!
As another thought experiment, if we throw out all the health arguments about circumcision as they are negligible either way, do you think parent have the right to make permanent aesthetic changes to their child's body? Consider a tattoo that can't be removed. Like circumcision, the tattoo will not be normally seen and fairly widely accepted in society. Do you think a parent has the right to put it on their child or must they wait until the child can decide?
I think the principle behind the bill is good. It is simply inhumane to perform an amputation on your child for no reason before they have any say in the matter. Even if it passes, the law itself won't do much outside of making a point, since parents can just go out of the city to get their kid circumcised.
Regardless, there is no way that the measure will pass. Too many religious people that would get pissed off that they're being "persecuted."
On November 29 2010 14:06 Slow Motion wrote: As another thought experiment, if we throw out all the health arguments about circumcision as they are negligible either way, do you think parent have the right to make permanent aesthetic changes to their child's body? Consider a tattoo that can't be removed. Like circumcision, the tattoo will not be normally seen and fairly widely accepted in society. Do you think a parent has the right to put it on their child or must they wait until the child can decide?
How about branding children, should that be allowed?
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
This is complete nonsense. There is no medical data thats shows circumcision has ANY effect on contracting ANY STD period. The only reason people at all believe that is because some doctors 100 years ago believed a circumcised penis would alter the BEHAVIOR of the individual and cause him to less likely come in contact with a woman with an STD, which is completely false.
Again circumcision has nothing what so ever to do with STD's. It does however, improve the hygine of the area on a minimal scale and can be beneficial for those with out clean bathing water or those who don't have access to it.
I see no reason to ban it, but please let's keep the facts straight and not use old wives tales as real science.
I need to move to San Francisco. Life there must be pure bliss if lawmakers have run out of real problems to tackle and they have moved on to happy meal toys and foreskin.
So we can propose a bill to ban parents the choice: a painful moment in an infant's life, one they never remember. However, there is tons of laws protecting the parents right to also abort that life far before they can even become an infant or even breath air. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, but I'm saying if the parents can have the choice to abortion, then why can't they have the right to choose circumcision especially since it has it's religious traditions.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
Actually, the studies about reducing the risk of contracting STIs is conflicting!
On November 29 2010 14:06 Slow Motion wrote: As another thought experiment, if we throw out all the health arguments about circumcision as they are negligible either way, do you think parent have the right to make permanent aesthetic changes to their child's body? Consider a tattoo that can't be removed. Like circumcision, the tattoo will not be normally seen and fairly widely accepted in society. Do you think a parent has the right to put it on their child or must they wait until the child can decide?
On November 29 2010 14:09 adeezy wrote: So we can propose a bill to ban parents the choice: a painful moment in an infant's life, one they never remember. However, there is tons of laws protecting the parents right to also abort that life far before they can even become an infant or even breath air. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, but I'm saying if the parents can have the choice to abortion, then why can't they have the right to choose circumcision especially since it has it's religious traditions.
Because they're two completely separate issues: one ends the fetus's life in a way that the fetus will never know, one alters a baby's life in a lasting way that will be consciously perceived. Did you really need this question answered?
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
This is complete nonsense. There is no medical data thats shows circumcision has ANY effect on contracting ANY STD period. The only reason people at all believe that is because some doctors 100 years ago believed a circumcised penis would alter the BEHAVIOR of the individual and cause him to less likely come in contact with a woman with an STD, which is completely false.
Again circumcision has nothing what so ever to do with STD's. It does however, improve the hygine of the area on a minimal scale and can be beneficial for those with out clean bathing water or those who don't have access to it.
I see no reason to ban it, but please let's keep the facts straight and not use old wives tales as real science.
Actually, the thought behind it makes some sense, in that an uncut penis gets micro tears during sex, where fluids can be mixed per se. That said, its not like circumcision is a form of contraception since it has NO real success rate in preventing STD's wihtout the use of other contraception, therefore it IS a completley stupid argument.
On November 29 2010 14:09 adeezy wrote: So we can propose a bill to ban parents the choice: a painful moment in an infant's life, one they never remember. However, there is tons of laws protecting the parents right to also abort that life far before they can even become an infant or even breath air. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, but I'm saying if the parents can have the choice to abortion, then why can't they have the right to choose circumcision especially since it has it's religious traditions.
You are assuming that a fetus's life has exactly the same value as that of an infant, and that it has all of the same human rights. But many on the other side of the abortion debate would strongly disagree. This is a different issue altogether.
Excerpt, talking about how circumcision isn't even a religious procedure in most cases:
"A majority of boys born in the United States still undergo nonritual circumcisions. This occurs in large measure because parental decision-making is based on social or cultural expectations, rather than medical concerns.63-67 Studies from the 1980s suggested that the presentation of medical information on the potential advantages and disadvantages of circumcision had little influence on parents' decisions.64-66 This finding was recently confirmed.68 In another contemporary study, nearly half of those physicians performing circumcisions did not discuss the potential medical risks and benefits of elective circumcision prior to delivery of the infant son. Deferral of discussion until after birth, combined with the fact that many parents' decisions about circumcision are preconceived, contribute to the high rate of elective circumcision.67,68 Major factors in parental decision-making are the father's circumcision status, opinions of family members and friends, a desire for conformity in their son's appearance, and the belief that the circumcised penis is easier to care for with respect to local hygiene. "
From the same article, this is talking about the pain one undergoes while being circumcised:
"Clinical and biochemical evidence indicates that newborn infants exhibit physiological, autonomic, and behavioral responses to noxious stimuli. Acute responses of neonates to painful stimuli include large increases in heart rate, increased blood pressure, decreased transcutaneous pO2 values , decreased vagal tone, crying, breath holding, gagging, behavioral changes, and increases in serum cortisol.33,34 Resolution of these changes is fairly rapid following the procedure.35 Although it has been assumed that there are no long-term psychological sequelae from this procedure, circumcised infants who were not anesthetized at the time of the procedure show stronger pain responses to vaccinations at 4 and 6 months of age than do uncircumcised infants or infants who received a topical anesthetic cream at the time of circumcision.36"
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
This is complete nonsense. There is no medical data thats shows circumcision has ANY effect on contracting ANY STD period. The only reason people at all believe that is because some doctors 100 years ago believed a circumcised penis would alter the BEHAVIOR of the individual and cause him to less likely come in contact with a woman with an STD, which is completely false.
Again circumcision has nothing what so ever to do with STD's. It does however, improve the hygine of the area on a minimal scale and can be beneficial for those with out clean bathing water or those who don't have access to it.
I see no reason to ban it, but please let's keep the facts straight and not use old wives tales as real science.
Actually, the thought behind it makes some sense, in that an uncut penis gets micro tears during sex, where fluids can be mixed per se. That said, its not like circumcision is a form of contraception since it has NO real success rate in preventing STD's wihtout the use of other contraception, therefore it IS a completley stupid argument.
Saying that we should circumcise kids to reduce their chances of phimosis/STDs/whatever is like saying we should remove their appendices to reduce their chances of appendicitis.
Actually, it makes even less sense because at least removing an appendix would actually guarantee that they won't get appendicitis. Circumcision just marginally decreases the chances of an STD.
Hey guys, I want to know if I been circumcized but I don't want to google it in case I come across some NSFW pictures. Can someone tell me how I can check if I have been circumcized?
On November 29 2010 14:15 aztrorisk wrote: Hey guys, I want to know if I been circumcized but I don't want to google it in case I come across some NSFW pictures. Can someone tell me how I can check if I have been circumcized?
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
This is complete nonsense. There is no medical data thats shows circumcision has ANY effect on contracting ANY STD period. The only reason people at all believe that is because some doctors 100 years ago believed a circumcised penis would alter the BEHAVIOR of the individual and cause him to less likely come in contact with a woman with an STD, which is completely false.
Again circumcision has nothing what so ever to do with STD's. It does however, improve the hygine of the area on a minimal scale and can be beneficial for those with out clean bathing water or those who don't have access to it.
I see no reason to ban it, but please let's keep the facts straight and not use old wives tales as real science.
Actually, the thought behind it makes some sense, in that an uncut penis gets micro tears during sex, where fluids can be mixed per se. That said, its not like circumcision is a form of contraception since it has NO real success rate in preventing STD's wihtout the use of other contraception, therefore it IS a completley stupid argument.
Saying that we should circumcise kids to reduce their chances of phimosis/STDs/whatever is like saying we should remove their appendices to reduce their chances of appendicitis.
Actually, it makes even less sense because at least removing an appendix would actually guarantee that they won't get appendicitis. Circumcision just marginally decreases the chances of an STD.
Wow absolutely NOT lol (at your 1st paragraph)
You can't get appendicitis without an appendix
you CAN get STD's without foreskin lol
jesus that could not be more wrong as an argument. Circumcision barely prevents unprotected sexual partners from contracting STD's because fluids are still mixed and exchanged regardless of foreskin or not. I wouldn't even say it marginally decreases the change because its next to zero.
On November 29 2010 14:09 adeezy wrote: So we can propose a bill to ban parents the choice: a painful moment in an infant's life, one they never remember. However, there is tons of laws protecting the parents right to also abort that life far before they can even become an infant or even breath air. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, but I'm saying if the parents can have the choice to abortion, then why can't they have the right to choose circumcision especially since it has it's religious traditions.
Because they're two completely separate issues: one ends the fetus's life in a way that the fetus will never know, one alters a baby's life in a lasting way that will be consciously perceived. Did you really need this question answered?
They may two separate issues, but they both deal with the power of the parent. Is what I was getting at. But I see what you are saying.
On November 29 2010 13:45 BrickTop wrote: ... So even if it doesn't become illegal, people become aware that it's a largely pointless procedure from a medical point of view.
You say it's largely pointless, and yet you don't actually back it up with anything...
I back it up with the opinion of Europe's doctors. I honestly think that's enough. Europe is advanced and regulated enough that they wouldn't drop an important procedure without good reason.
You might reduce the risk of some conditions by circumcision, but I think a lot of american parents have huge misconceptions about the real benefits of the procedure. I would't get my child circumcised just to move some chances of medical problems from 0.05% to 0.02%. Yes, I'm making these numbers up again; but my excuse again is that if they were larger they would circumcise in Europe as well.
EDIT: actually, just see Ferrose's great post (a few posts above this one).
On November 29 2010 14:15 aztrorisk wrote: Hey guys, I want to know if I been circumcized but I don't want to google it in case I come across some NSFW pictures. Can someone tell me how I can check if I have been circumcized?
Well, the way I was told as a child was, anteater (not circumcised), or worm wearing a helmet (circumcised).
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
It only reduces disease if you don't shower.
I'd rather have my normal penis back.
And to the religious: If God doesn't want you to have a foreskin, why did he give it to you in the first place?
actually it greatly reduces your risk of contracting an STD (if u have unprotected sex).
i think its ridiculous that they actually want to outlaw this. im sure many doctors would attest that circumcision isn't harmful, and in many ways can be beneficial.
seems like this guy has just decided he doesnt like it and wants to force his opinion on everyone else.
This is complete nonsense. There is no medical data thats shows circumcision has ANY effect on contracting ANY STD period. The only reason people at all believe that is because some doctors 100 years ago believed a circumcised penis would alter the BEHAVIOR of the individual and cause him to less likely come in contact with a woman with an STD, which is completely false.
Again circumcision has nothing what so ever to do with STD's. It does however, improve the hygine of the area on a minimal scale and can be beneficial for those with out clean bathing water or those who don't have access to it.
I see no reason to ban it, but please let's keep the facts straight and not use old wives tales as real science.
Actually, the thought behind it makes some sense, in that an uncut penis gets micro tears during sex, where fluids can be mixed per se. That said, its not like circumcision is a form of contraception since it has NO real success rate in preventing STD's wihtout the use of other contraception, therefore it IS a completley stupid argument.
Saying that we should circumcise kids to reduce their chances of phimosis/STDs/whatever is like saying we should remove their appendices to reduce their chances of appendicitis.
Actually, it makes even less sense because at least removing an appendix would actually guarantee that they won't get appendicitis. Circumcision just marginally decreases the chances of an STD.
Wow absolutely NOT lol (at your 1st paragraph)
You can't get appendicitis without an appendix
you CAN get STD's without foreskin lol
jesus that could not be more wrong as an argument. Circumcision barely prevents unprotected sexual partners from contracting STD's because fluids are still mixed and exchanged regardless of foreskin or not. I wouldn't even say it marginally decreases the change because its next to zero.
you realize I was agreeing with you right? unless you do support appendicectomy as a routine procedure at birth...
On November 29 2010 14:15 aztrorisk wrote: Hey guys, I want to know if I been circumcized but I don't want to google it in case I come across some NSFW pictures. Can someone tell me how I can check if I have been circumcized?
Is there skin over the head of your cock or not. Problem solved
On November 29 2010 14:16 Cambium wrote: when will you guys understand that, on the Internet in particular, no one will ever admit that his penis is inferior to another penis.
it is so pointless arguing back and forth.
I don't really give a fuck, but in terms of the scientific and medical "reasons" there is no point in circumcision, whether or not I'm cut or uncut wont matter.
Plus your argument contradicts page 1 where people who are cut are saying that they wish they weren't. So is your post here just to make something witty to stand out and have a laugh? Or to troll, or to prevent a discussion from happening on a legitimate topic
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
On November 29 2010 14:09 adeezy wrote: So we can propose a bill to ban parents the choice: a painful moment in an infant's life, one they never remember. However, there is tons of laws protecting the parents right to also abort that life far before they can even become an infant or even breath air. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, but I'm saying if the parents can have the choice to abortion, then why can't they have the right to choose circumcision especially since it has it's religious traditions.
Because they're two completely separate issues: one ends the fetus's life in a way that the fetus will never know, one alters a baby's life in a lasting way that will be consciously perceived. Did you really need this question answered?
They may two separate issues, but they both deal with the power of the parent. Is what I was getting at. But I see what you are saying.
It's not really a valid comparison in that respect either, as this law wouldn't ban circumcision outright, just circumcision of minors. It just moves the timeframe, so in that sense it would be more comparable to the already currently existing restrictions on abortion, rather than the outright prohibition of abortion which is central to the abortion debate.
On November 29 2010 14:16 Cambium wrote: when will you guys understand that, on the Internet in particular, no one will ever admit that his penis is inferior to another penis.
it is so pointless arguing back and forth.
I don't really give a fuck, but in terms of the scientific and medical "reasons" there is no point in circumcision, whether or not I'm cut or uncut wont matter.
Plus your argument contradicts page 1 where people who are cut are saying that they wish they weren't. So is your post here just to make something witty to stand out and have a laugh? Or to troll, or to prevent a discussion from happening on a legitimate topic
wow, you need to calm the fuck down
this topic has come up a handful of times in the past on TL, and I'm just summarizing an observation I've made.
On November 29 2010 14:06 Slow Motion wrote: As another thought experiment, if we throw out all the health arguments about circumcision as they are negligible either way, do you think parent have the right to make permanent aesthetic changes to their child's body? Consider a tattoo that can't be removed. Like circumcision, the tattoo will not be normally seen and fairly widely accepted in society. Do you think a parent has the right to put it on their child or must they wait until the child can decide?
A better example is the removal of a birthmark.
I think this is a fairly appropriate analogy, but another possible analogy would the removal of a tail (evidently some people are born with tails, I don't know too much about the specifics), a tail that the parents believe the child could do without (and the parents are religiously inclined to have removed), but some people born with tails can live long, healthy, STD-free lives. Having a tail and not having a tail are about equal in social acceptability.
Edit: Until the overall social acceptability of the topic changes, why does it even matter if you have a tail or not?
On November 29 2010 14:00 Manifesto7 wrote: There is a lot of literature that suggests what you say is true, but here is also a lot of literature that says "we really don't know". Most countries in the developed world have stopped circumcising boys. In addition, many boys are circumcised for reasons that have nothing to do with health.
You also have to be wary of statistics. Many pro-cut places say there is a TEN TIMES GREATER occurrence of UTI for the uncut, but that only takes the rate to 1%. Hardly an epidemic.
I agree, and I think those are good points. If it's fizzling out or still sticking around in certain areas, I think we should figure out why. Is it a moral issue, a medical issue, a religious one, etc.
On November 29 2010 12:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: They want to outlaw a medical procedure that can reduce the possibility of diseases and decrease specific health risks?
Yeahhh... there's NO problem with that... ::facepalm::
Not outlaw it flat out, just in the case of minors, and like I said I imagine there will be medical exceptions and whatnot written into the final law if it even makes it that far.
Come on bro, I even bolded that part!
I noticed that, but it's the parents' and doctors' responsibility to take care of children. If we have medical evidence that circumcision reduces medical risks (and apparently, going by your article, we do), then we should be protecting our children. It's akin to saying "Well we should wait for kids to hit 17 years old so THEY can decide whether or not they want vaccines!" That's nonsense. We need to protect them as early on as possible. We're the adults; we need to care for them.
We need to protect our children from what? From not being circumcised? Not exactly the same as a hepatitis vaccination.
I just don't think your argument that "the baby didn't look happy" was a good reason for a baby not to get a medical treatment that apparently has the potential to help them. And I think it's pretty similar to a vaccination. Vaccines have the potential to help, although they could technically be pointless needle-pricks that "harm the baby". The baby may not ever be in actual danger of getting hepatitis, yet he may get the vaccination just to be safe. Better safe than sorry.
What if the circumcision backfires? What if the kid loses his penis because of it? How is that protecting the child?
It just doesn't seem fair to me.
Don't all medical procedures carry some level of risk? Out of curiosity, what percentage of circumcisions have ended with the loss of the entire penis? Can you find this statistic please, since you brought it up? I don't understand how the removal of the foreskin could result in this happening, but you're claiming it can. If it's a significant percentage, I would consider re-evaluating my position; I was of the mindset that it is a relatively safe procedure. Please just show me a reliable statistic.
Here you go:
"The American Medical Association quotes a complication rate of 0.2%–0.6%,[13] based on the studies of Gee[39] and Harkavy.[40] These same studies are quoted by the American Academy of Pediatrics.[16] The American Academy of Family Physicians quotes a range of anywhere between 0.1% and 35%.[41] The Canadian Paediatric Society cites these results in addition to other figures ranging anywhere between 0.06% to 55%, and remark that Williams & Kapila[37] suggested that 2-10% is a realistic estimate.[42] The RACP states that the penis is lost in 1 in 1,000,000 circumcisions.[43]"
I know that this doesn't mention loss of the whole penis, but here is something:
"Activists began creating websites in the mid-1990s, and this process has continued. One such organization distributed questionnaires to circumcised men. The complaints included prominent scarring (33%), insufficient penile skin for comfortable erection (27%), erectile curvature from uneven skin loss (16%), and pain and bleeding upon erection/manipulation (17%). Psychological complaints included feelings of mutilation (60%), low self esteem/inferiority to intact men (50%), genital dysmorphia (55%), rage (52%), resentment/depression (59%), violation (46%), or parental betrayal (30%). Many respondents reported that their physical/emotional suffering impeded emotional intimacy with their partner(s), resulting in sexual dysfunction.[47] "
So 1 out of a million babies lose their penis. That's pretty bad, although I wonder how many penises are saved because of the lowered risks of the following: UTIs, penile cancer, HIV, balanitis, posthitis, phimosis, and prostate cancer. (This list came from your Wiki controversies list.)
And as far as that last paragraph is concerned, we have no idea how many people were polled! It simply tells you the breakdown of the given complaints... but these complaints could have been 100 complaints out of one million people polled- and the vast majority of them (999,900) could have had no problem whatsoever with their circumcision!
It amuses me that originally circumcision was bad because of SCIENCE and then it was good because of SCIENCE and now people are finding it unnecessary because of SCIENCE. The health aspect and the data behind it is so marginal that it shouldn't be a focus of public policy.
It's a bit of a cruel practice but so are braces and chicken pox and MMR needles, and nearly anything depending on your perspective. Children don't have full rights, and even if it's based in ignorance or misinformation, parents do have the rights to fuck up their children in a myriad of ways and I'd still rather have them doing it than incompetent ex-business owners and school board members who became city council people.
On November 29 2010 14:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So 1 out of a million babies lose their penis. That's pretty bad, although I wonder how many penises are saved because of the lowered risks of the following: UTIs, penile cancer, HIV, balanitis, posthitis, phimosis, and prostate cancer. (This list came from your Wiki controversies list.)
Do not straw man, circumcision does not in any way prevent any of those (except for phimosis), it only reduces the risks, and you have no way of proving how many people were saved from those diseases because they were circumcised.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
On November 29 2010 14:27 lac29 wrote: Why make a big deal out of something that ultimately is inconsequential compared to the million of other bigger issues in the world?
Yes, because public policy should never deal with anything except for the very most pressing and dire issues. /sarcasm
On November 29 2010 14:06 Slow Motion wrote: As another thought experiment, if we throw out all the health arguments about circumcision as they are negligible either way, do you think parent have the right to make permanent aesthetic changes to their child's body? Consider a tattoo that can't be removed. Like circumcision, the tattoo will not be normally seen and fairly widely accepted in society. Do you think a parent has the right to put it on their child or must they wait until the child can decide?
A better example is the removal of a birthmark.
This is a pretty good analogy. Unfortunately everyone is too busy comparing circumcision to
vaccination branding removal of a toe appendectomy mutilation etc.
The United States is not a Western civilization, it is part of Western civilization. And it is not the last part of Western civilization to favor circumcision - or even the country where circumsion is most popular: That country would be South Korea.
Perhaps you don't consider South Korea a part of Western civilization? Eh maybe. Confucianism does hold much sway and is not Western but I feel there is much more in common between the US and South Korea today than between the UK and the US today. At the very least, the US and SK are moving together and the US and Europe are moving apart. Frankly, I don't mind Transatlantic Drift if it means the Pacific shrinks.
I'm a bit non-committal about the whole thing. Having had it done, some people in this thread are overreacting a little bit imo. To me it's really not that big a deal, but to each their own I guess.
Would I have it done to my children? That's a discussion for another day with my wife
On November 29 2010 13:43 Manifesto7 wrote: There is an interesting parallel between this issue and the controversies surrounding Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions. Basically Jehovah's Witnesses interpret Acts 15:28, among other passages, as showing blood transfusions being against God's law.
In Canada the government has forced children to get the medical procedure over the wishes of their parents (and in some cases the child too) stating that they have to strike a balance between their duties to religious freedom and their duties to protect the people.
Population polls and government policy has been on the side of giving transfusions. Something tells me that if the JW had the same presence in Canada as the Jewish population has in America, that girl would not have received the transfusion. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_blood_transfusions
when did the CA gov force it? my parents werent forced and I was born 20 years ago, and at a jewish hospital at that :O
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: It's a bit of a cruel practice but so are braces and chicken pox and MMR needles, and nearly anything depending on your perspective.
braces and chicken pox (i dunno what mmr needles are) have very direct observable effects in today's society
circumcision.. none whatsoever. other than changing how your penis looks and making it less sensitive
anyways i don't really care, but I do think circumcision is propagated by idiots. the same kinds of people who do any given tradition just because it's tradition and not because it serves some useful function.
On November 29 2010 14:29 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: The United States is not a Western civilization, it is part of Western civilization. And it is not the last part of Western civilization to favor circumcision - or even the country where circumsion is most popular: That country would be South Korea.
Perhaps you don't consider South Korea a part of Western civilization? Eh maybe. Confucianism does hold much sway and is not Western but I feel there is much more in common between the US and South Korea today than between the UK and the US today. At the very least, the US and SK are moving together and the US and Europe are moving apart. Frankly, I don't mind Transatlantic Drift if it means the Pacific shrinks.
I meant Western as in the geographical definition, but I don't know if I'd consider South Korea a part of Western civilization when it is very distinctly culturally Asian in many respects.
On November 29 2010 14:27 lac29 wrote: Why make a big deal out of something that ultimately is inconsequential compared to the million of other bigger issues in the world?
Yes, because public policy should never deal with anything except for the very most pressing and dire issues. /sarcasm
Yes? The problem I see with the world at large is that there is a serious lack of prioritization on world issues.
On November 29 2010 14:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So 1 out of a million babies lose their penis. That's pretty bad, although I wonder how many penises are saved because of the lowered risks of the following: UTIs, penile cancer, HIV, balanitis, posthitis, phimosis, and prostate cancer. (This list came from your Wiki controversies list.)
Do not straw man, circumcision does not in any way prevent any of those (except for phimosis), it only reduces the risks, and you have no way of proving how many people were saved from those diseases because they were circumcised.
edit: forgot about phimosis
I never said it had to prevent it. Lowering risk isn't as good as automatic prevention, but when you're comparing multiple "lowered risks" to a possible "1 in a million chance" anyway, you may consider getting the operation. It's true that you may not have gotten those diseases anyway, but then again it's true that you may have if it weren't for the circumcision. That's why the AMA says that there are potential benefits to the operation, not "absolute benefits, definitely get it!" or "no chance of it being helpful, it's useless!"
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: Children don't have full rights, and even if it's based in ignorance or misinformation, parents do have the rights to fuck up their children in a myriad of ways and I'd still rather have them doing it than incompetent ex-business owners and school board members who became city council people.
On November 29 2010 14:13 Ferrose wrote: AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): ... Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
That's true, but I think a very large percentage of American parents don't know that, and they think circumcision IS significantly beneficial. This results in a lot of children being circumcised due to simple misinformation.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I don't think it should be completely unlawful for a person to get a circumcision, but I am all for making it illegal for a parent to decide until the person is 17/18/a legal adult. It seems that the general argument for it is that it has been shown to possibly reduce the risk of STDs, but how many STDs would an infant really come in contact with (assuming they were circumcised at birth)?
All the possible benefits of being circumcised wouldn't really come into effect until the child/man was sexually active, at which point he would be prepared to make the decision on his own. Leave it up to the guy whether or not he wants to change his own genitalia.
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: It's a bit of a cruel practice but so are braces and chicken pox and MMR needles, and nearly anything depending on your perspective.
braces and chicken pox (i dunno what mmr needles are) have very direct observable effects in today's society
circumcision.. none whatsoever. other than changing how your penis looks and making it less sensitive
Yes, but up until very, very recently the same argument was made for circumcision. When the information is that raw and non-extensive (no pun intended), you don't legislate off it.
On November 29 2010 14:01 Dali. wrote: Do any of us support female genital mutilation? I assume not. Then why are we in favour of the male counterpart?
Because the "male counterpart" is in no way a counterpart to female circumcision.
Male circumcision generally has no negative consequences. Or if there are negative consequences, they aren't well understood. Circumcised males do not have a lack of sex drive or ability to orgasm compared to uncircumcised males (though I've often wondered if circumcision affects how long men last. Someone should do a study on that). As far as we can tell, it is quite innocuous.
Female circumcision is not. Female circumcision almost always carries with it many negative effects.
The two are in no way comparable. They are only similar because they use similar names. The term "female circumcision" isn't even anatomically correct, because the "circumcision" in that case removes the clitoris (the external part, at any rate). The closest equivalent to that in men would be the removal of the penis.
Which I'm sure you'll agree would have substantial negative consequences. Consequences that male circumcision does not have.
As for outlawing circumcision, I'm against the law on general principle. I'm fairly neutral on circumcision, but I really don't think that a city-wide ban on the practice is a good idea.
This is just a political move. It is nothing more and nothing less than opening up a new front in the Culture Wars. For no reason other than to score cheap political points.
stop comparing circumcision to things like shots or stuff like that. there is pretty much no health benefits from circumcision, whereas shots and braces obviously do something. i was never cut and i don't want to be, kids should be able to make a decision. i still don't think it matters that much anyways
imagine if you had pubes as a kid and your parents controlled whether they would be shaved or not, and they can't grow back. basically it doesn't matter much but i would like to have control of what i do with my body when it doesn't really affect my well-being.
On November 29 2010 14:13 Ferrose wrote: AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): ... Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
That's true, but I think a very large percentage of American parents don't know that, and they think circumcision IS significantly beneficial. This results in a lot of children being circumcised due to simple misinformation.
Which is exactly why the article stated that parents should be fully informed before going through with the operation.
Even so, I think it should still be up to the kid. I haven't been circumcised, but maybe after reading up on it one day, I would say, "Hey, this doesn't sound like a bad idea," and get circumcised.
Even if it doesn't do anything beneficial, it would still be better than being circumcised as a baby, and being told that it's best for me and not having a say in the matter, and possibly growing up to be say, "FUCK WHY WAS I CIRCUMCISED?!"
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: Children don't have full rights, and even if it's based in ignorance or misinformation, parents do have the rights to fuck up their children in a myriad of ways and I'd still rather have them doing it than incompetent ex-business owners and school board members who became city council people.
why do you think that?
Which part? That children don't have full rights? Because they don't. That most city council people are unqualified for real work? Because in New York and Detroit and Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti and Albion, they aren't. Or that parents fuck up their kids in a myriad of ways? That's just basic socialization.
I honestly don't understand the parallel that people are drawing to abortion here. The focal point of the abortion debate, at least for me, is a person's right to control what is going on with their own body. Whether or not the fetus has rights, they shouldn't override the right of the woman carrying it to have full control of decisions that affect her body and well being.
As far as the circumsicion debate is concerned, I don't really have a problem with a ban. There's no compelling evidence that circumsicion has any really tangible health benefits so the entire practice revolves around needlessly lopping off part of the baby's body. Some people might have a problem with that language but that's literally what's going on. It's not like the person in question couldn't make an educated decision later on in life to have one.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
The fact that the benefit is arguable and there is no definite yes or no leaves it to the parents to decide for themselves.
Religion and tradition aside.... And if there were no health benefits then I could understand why people would say no to it. But like in the OP what's behind circumcision backers is : POSSIBLE benefits, religious and/or cultural traditions. This is what makes me say... oh okay, Parents just need to decide.
Honestly, they should work on banning malnutrition, forgetting to feed your baby, or shaking your baby, or something of the sort that is actually relevant pain before we call things like this barbaric. Maybe I am going a different route but seriously... the way i see this issue is like this quote from Black Jack earlier
"I need to move to San Francisco. Life there must be pure bliss if lawmakers have run out of real problems to tackle and they have moved on to happy meal toys and foreskin."
However, there are real problems. Living near there there's a ton. I understand this is just a proposal for a future bill in 2011 but if this becomes a fullblown issue, it'll end up being a Science vs Religion debate.
On November 29 2010 14:27 lac29 wrote: Why make a big deal out of something that ultimately is inconsequential compared to the million of other bigger issues in the world?
Yes, because public policy should never deal with anything except for the very most pressing and dire issues. /sarcasm
Yes? The problem I see with the world at large is that there is a serious lack of prioritization on world issues.
...This is just one of many issues being discussed as a potential law to consider by one board in one city, man, how do you think they should go about tackling world issues?
On November 29 2010 14:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So 1 out of a million babies lose their penis. That's pretty bad, although I wonder how many penises are saved because of the lowered risks of the following: UTIs, penile cancer, HIV, balanitis, posthitis, phimosis, and prostate cancer. (This list came from your Wiki controversies list.)
Do not straw man, circumcision does not in any way prevent any of those (except for phimosis), it only reduces the risks, and you have no way of proving how many people were saved from those diseases because they were circumcised.
edit: forgot about phimosis
I never said it had to prevent it. Lowering risk isn't as good as automatic prevention, but when you're comparing multiple "lowered risks" to a possible "1 in a million chance" anyway, you may consider getting the operation. It's true that you may not have gotten those diseases anyway, but then again it's true that you may have if it weren't for the circumcision. That's why the AMA says that there are potential benefits to the operation, not "absolute benefits, definitely get it!" or "no chance of it being helpful, it's useless!"
That's why we're having this discussion
The way you phrase it pretty much implies that circumcision in some way "saves penises", that definitely implies some level of prevention there.
It really comes down to whether you think the possible benefits (which can be nonexistent to very minor depending on where you get your information) outweighs the drawbacks, many of which are definitely real and can be outright proven, like the permanent loss of neurosensitivity.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: Children don't have full rights, and even if it's based in ignorance or misinformation, parents do have the rights to fuck up their children in a myriad of ways and I'd still rather have them doing it than incompetent ex-business owners and school board members who became city council people.
why do you think that?
Which part? That children don't have full rights? Because they don't. That most city council people are unqualified for real work? Because in New York and Detroit and Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti and Albion, they aren't. Or that parents fuck up their kids in a myriad of ways? That's just basic socialization.
You're kidding; Monica Conyers is the perfect example of competence from a city council member.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
I'm sure that most people wouldn't mind it as much if they actually had a say in the matter.
On November 29 2010 14:01 Dali. wrote: Do any of us support female genital mutilation? I assume not. Then why are we in favour of the male counterpart?
Because the "male counterpart" is in no way a counterpart to female circumcision.
Male circumcision generally has no negative consequences. Or if there are negative consequences, they aren't well understood. Circumcised males do not have a lack of sex drive or ability to orgasm compared to uncircumcised males (though I've often wondered if circumcision affects how long men last. Someone should do a study on that). As far as we can tell, it is quite innocuous.
Female circumcision is not. Female circumcision almost always carries with it many negative effects.
The two are in no way comparable. They are only similar because they use similar names. The term "female circumcision" isn't even anatomically correct, because the "circumcision" in that case removes the clitoris (the external part, at any rate). The closest equivalent to that in men would be the removal of the penis.
Which I'm sure you'll agree would have substantial negative consequences. Consequences that male circumcision does not have.
As for outlawing circumcision, I'm against the law on general principle. I'm fairly neutral on circumcision, but I really don't think that a city-wide ban on the practice is a good idea.
This is just a political move. It is nothing more and nothing less than opening up a new front in the Culture Wars. For no reason other than to score cheap political points.
On November 29 2010 14:38 shawster wrote: stop comparing circumcision to things like shots or stuff like that. there is pretty much no health benefits from circumcision, whereas shots and braces obviously do something. i was never cut and i don't want to be, kids should be able to make a decision. i still don't think it matters that much anyways
imagine if you had pubes as a kid and your parents controlled whether they would be shaved or not, and they can't grow back. basically it doesn't matter much but i would like to have control of what i do with my body when it doesn't really affect my well-being.
Even the AMA recognizes potential health benefits from circumcision -.-' And a cursory Google search on medical sites or books could net you a bunch of other references that suggest a reduced risk of urinary tract infection, penile cancer, HIV, balanitis, posthitis, phimosis, and prostate cancer.
Does it automatically prevent them? No. Are there slight risks involved? Yeah.
I just don't think it's so clear-cut (no pun intended) of a bad practice that we should be banning circumcision.
It's not mutilation in the image of negative connotation, where the penis can't perform functionally or the genitals get maimed. I don't see how someone could say, "Oh, it's going to hurt the baby so we shouldn't do it!", because that doesn't stop us from giving them shots or performing other operations on them that we feel are in their best interest medically. I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
I'm quite content with my circumcision, which I got as a baby. I never held a grudge against my parents for removing my foreskin, nor would I have cared if they didn't. I'm really not all that offended.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
If there is no memory of pain and no subconscious trauma from it (I'm assuming this, but really have no idea) then what does the fact that the pain did occur matter?
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
such a productive post you've made seriously.. pretty much no one is saying this shit, and lots of people are arguing on either side.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
If there is no memory of pain and no subconscious trauma from it (I'm assuming this, but really have no idea) then what does the fact that the pain did occur matter?
why does it matter what is happening to you right now then?
On November 29 2010 14:25 Jibba wrote: Children don't have full rights, and even if it's based in ignorance or misinformation, parents do have the rights to fuck up their children in a myriad of ways and I'd still rather have them doing it than incompetent ex-business owners and school board members who became city council people.
why do you think that?
Which part? That children don't have full rights? Because they don't. That most city council people are unqualified for real work? Because in New York and Detroit and Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti and Albion, they aren't. Or that parents fuck up their kids in a myriad of ways? That's just basic socialization.
that's pretty fucked up. but i guess it's the truth that most people are dumb enough to do these things. i meant more, why do you think they have the right to do it, not in terms of whether it happens or not, but more in terms of what we do with the law to change people.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
Well ignoring the pain the baby would probably get over in a hour(I'm sure if the kid was in horrible life ending pain for a week we'd all be aware of this, he clearly says his circumcised penis is not a big deal. Do you think of the doctor doing the circumcision as a madman covered in blood, blindfolded carrying machete hacking away madly?
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
I'm pretty sure that parents who get their babies circumcised don't do it *because* it hurts the baby. They do it because of religious reasons or because of the potential medical benefits. Kids don't like getting shots at the doctor's, but parents make kids get them because it's good for the kids in the long run. Same mindset.
On November 29 2010 14:38 shawster wrote: stop comparing circumcision to things like shots or stuff like that. there is pretty much no health benefits from circumcision, whereas shots and braces obviously do something
Here's the thing. People need to choose which argument they're going to make.
Should involuntary circumcision be outlawed? Yes, because it's cruel. -> Then no matter the health benefit, it should be outlawed. All those other things that cause pain to infants should be outlawed as well.
No, because it's beneficial. -> Based in weak information, but residing on the same argument used to support those other things that cause pain to infants. It may not be sound, but it's as valid as those are. EDIT: Valid meaning logically true given true premises. Sound being whether it's actually true or not.
No, but it's not beneficial. -> Argument of principle, focused on liberty.
Yes, because it's cruel and not beneficial. -> This is disguising itself as an argument of principle, but really it's not. It's a basic utilitarian calculation. If it were beneficial, then being cruel would be ok. Since it's not beneficial, being cruel is not okay. There's enough ways to dissect and manipulate 'cruel' and 'not beneficial' that I'm simply more comfortable going with principle above.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
Well ignoring the pain the baby would probably get over in a hour(I'm sure if the kid was in horrible life ending pain for a week we'd all be aware of this, he clearly says his circumcised penis is not a big deal. Do you think of the doctor doing the circumcision as a madman covered in blood, blindfolded carrying machete hacking away madly?
no, did i say anything that would come remotely close to portraying it that way?
something being slightly stupid or slightly bad doesn't mean it's not worth correcting if given the opportunity
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
If there is no memory of pain and no subconscious trauma from it (I'm assuming this, but really have no idea) then what does the fact that the pain did occur matter?
why does it matter what is happening to you right now then?
.....
I don't think it does matter after I die and lose my consciousness.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
Haha, nono, I was a baby when it happened. All I'm saying is, people tend to overreact when it comes to circumcision (and it's normally those who haven't even had it done!). Coming from someone who is circumcised, I'm just saying I don't understand all the fuss -- to me it really isn't a big deal. The little fella still works (and looks) fine and that's all that matters!
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
The fact that I don't remember it means the hard part is over. I don't think I care if it hurt when I was a baby.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
I was circumcised because my parents are Jewish. Honestly, even though I'm nonreligious it's not a big problem at all, and I don't know anyone who feels mutilated by the procedure. The only problem from the pain is that it could lead to more pain sensitivity in the future, and that can be avoided with some simple anesthetics. I hardly see circumcision as a moral issue except in that it's in a way opposing freedom of religion.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
I'm quite content with my circumcision, which I got as a baby. I never held a grudge against my parents for removing my foreskin, nor would I have cared if they didn't. I'm really not all that offended.
So you don’t mind losing a whole sensation you will never feel?
Secondly, circumcision is put forward as a response to the spread of HIV in countries with dystopian levels of HIV where people flat-out refuse to use condoms and often don't have the resources to take care of their bodies. We don't need to be talking about that now, unless California has really gotten that bad.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
If circumcision doesn't have any significant medical benefits or detriments, why are so many people butthurt (or i guess cockhurt) over it? I was circumcised as an infant and I can tell you it hasn't done any psychological damage to me. It's simply a cosmetic change. It made my parents feel a lot better so good for them. As my guardians over the past 17 years, they've sacrificed much more than a piece of skin for my well-being. I say that gives them every right to make the choice as to whether I'm circumcised or not. Removing that choice would do a lot more harm to the religiously inclined than it would do (good?) to the child. To Lloyd Schofield, I say "You have no more right to be my parent than my parents do."
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Your literary manipulation excites me
I can do it too
I beg to differ. I'm advocating a procedure that's harmless to the vast majority of those who receive it, in return for the possible medical benefits of a plethora of terrible diseases.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
The article mentions that being circumcised can have psychological and developmental impacts on people after the procedure:
"In order to evaluate the psychological effects of circumcision, a small study was arranged in which twelve children, from average and low socio-economic level, were given Goodenough and DAM test, CAT, Rorschach and two sets of stories, prior to the operation and following it. The results of the tests showed that circumcision, performed around the phallic stage is perceived by the child as an act of aggression and castration. It has detrimental effects on the child's functioning and adaptation, particularly on his ego strength. By weakening the controlling and defensive mechanisms of the ego, and initiating regression, it loosens the previously hidden fears, anxieties, and instinctual impulses, and renders a feeling of reality to them. What is expressed following the operation is primitive, archaic and unsocialized in character. As a defensive control and protection against the surge of the instinctual forces coming from within and the threats coming from outside, the ego of the child seeks safety in total withdrawal, this isolates and insulates itself from disturbing stimuli."
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
I'm quite content with my circumcision, which I got as a baby. I never held a grudge against my parents for removing my foreskin, nor would I have cared if they didn't. I'm really not all that offended.
So you don’t mind losing a whole sensation you will never feel?
What sensation is that? My penis is still extremely sensitive.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
The article mentions that being circumcised can have psychological and developmental impacts on people after the procedure.
The study was done on kids, not on babies. Unless a kid is told he was circumcised as a baby, he's going to have no idea it ever actually happened. He's certainly not going to remember it. Heck, kids can have psychological trauma from realizing that + Show Spoiler +
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
That is for the parents to decide. All of the men i have seen in the shower (lol no homo) after football is circumsized. It is normal for our culture to get circumsized, and nobody felt mutilated or damaged. I dont want the government to tell me how to raise my children. It looks normal to me and thats my choice.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
The article mentions that being circumcised can have psychological and developmental impacts on people after the procedure.
The study was done on kids, not on babies. Unless a kid is told he was circumcised as a baby, he's going to have no idea it ever actually happened. He's certainly not going to remember it. Heck, kids can have psychological trauma from realizing that + Show Spoiler +
Santa isn't real!
But eventually you'll find out that you're circumcised. And that can have psychological effects on you.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
That is for the parents to decide. All of the men i have seen in the shower (lol no homo) after football is circumsized. It is normal for our culture to get circumsized, and nobody felt mutilated or damaged. I dont want the government to tell me how to raise my children. It looks normal to me and thats my choice.
But why is it normal? Peer pressure? Socialization? I don't think that circumcison is a common practice in America because it's great for our health.
And what flawed logic. You could just as easily say "Everyday I beat my children and lock them in the basement with no food. Then one day the child protection agency took them away, because I'm an abusive parent. How dare that government tell me how to raise my kid!"
The kid should have a say in whether or not he's circumcised.
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
Is this the same libertarian TL that is against banning violent video games and feeding kids fatty food? Because parents can look after their kids themselves? And no Orwellian, nanny-state, money-wasting government is gonna tell me what I can and can't do to my kid?
It makes no difference whether you are cut or not, so who cares? Freedom and liberty and all that jazz.
Wow my home town is so dumb. My younger brother got circumcized as a baby by a rabbi and I got circumsized when I was like 7-9 or so in a hospital for medical reasons. My mom and some stupid woman doctor said it hurts the baby and they wouldn't let my dad have it done. And when ur a baby it doesn't hurt at all but it was a huge pain for me that lasted a long time since I had to get it done for medical reasons.
You cant just "get circumcized when ur 18" because it is really painful, expensive, and requires surgery when you get to that age. I remember it hurt SOOOO bad to pee like someone sticking a knife in ur dick and I didn't want to drink liquids because it hurt so bad to pee. As a baby there is no pain b/c there are no nerves there.
I think we should pass a law that SF can't pass any laws.
The religious reason is a mark to show that the Jews are God's people. I'm not sure what the Christian one is, prob simimlar. This just seems like liberals trying to keep God out of society for the billionth time.
And LOL @ mutilation... you guys are idiots. Its absolutely fine. The female circumcision where they cut off the clit is mutilation, this isn't. If done right as a baby there are only health benefits for male circumcision.
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
The article mentions that being circumcised can have psychological and developmental impacts on people after the procedure.
The study was done on kids, not on babies. Unless a kid is told he was circumcised as a baby, he's going to have no idea it ever actually happened. He's certainly not going to remember it. Heck, kids can have psychological trauma from realizing that + Show Spoiler +
Santa isn't real!
But eventually you'll find out that you're circumcised. And that can have psychological effects on you.
Both positive and negative. Just like finding out that you're uncircumcised, I'm sure. I don't see a problem there.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
That is for the parents to decide. All of the men i have seen in the shower (lol no homo) after football is circumsized. It is normal for our culture to get circumsized, and nobody felt mutilated or damaged. I dont want the government to tell me how to raise my children. It looks normal to me and thats my choice.
But why should it be your choice and not your child's? I assure you, what looks normal to you may not look normal to someone who was not circumcised. That is not to say it looks better one way or the other, that's purely opinion. But to say it looks normal to you because you have lived your whole life with it is not a fair reasoning. Anything you see multiple times a day is gonna look normal eventually.
I say leave it as the child's decision when he is old enough to be made fully aware of the difference, and when any possible benefits of the procedure will really come into effect.
On November 29 2010 15:16 blitzkrieger wrote: And when ur a baby it doesn't hurt at all
You have obviously never heard the screams from a baby being circumcised. Not remembering the pain != not having any pain
On November 29 2010 14:42 Dance. wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't mind that I'm circumcised?
According to this thread you're a horrible abomination MUTILATED by your parents without your knowing, you will forever live the rest of you're life shunning and being ridiculed by those who had the good fortune of having parents who did not want circumcision!. I'm circumcised and I have never even thought about it until this thread. Do other men look down at their cocks and curse at their parents for getting them circumcised? Is there an alarming statistic of circumcisions gone horribly awry with penis' flying everywhere?
That article has a plethora of information on the psychological effects of circumcison.
Which is why you get it as a baby, instead of as a five year old You don't remember a thing, and you certainly don't become upset and psychologically damaged.
The article mentions that being circumcised can have psychological and developmental impacts on people after the procedure.
The study was done on kids, not on babies. Unless a kid is told he was circumcised as a baby, he's going to have no idea it ever actually happened. He's certainly not going to remember it. Heck, kids can have psychological trauma from realizing that + Show Spoiler +
Santa isn't real!
But eventually you'll find out that you're circumcised. And that can have psychological effects on you.
I'd be curious if there has ever been a single person that has been circumcised at birth and then suffered psychologically at the discovery of being circumcised.
On November 29 2010 15:16 blitzkrieger wrote: Wow my home town is so dumb. My younger brother got circumcized as a baby by a rabbi and I got circumsized when I was like 7-9 or so in a hospital for medical reasons. My mom and some stupid woman doctor said it hurts the baby and they wouldn't let my dad have it done. And when ur a baby it doesn't hurt at all but it was a huge pain for me that lasted a long time since I had to get it done for medical reasons.
You cant just "get circumcized when ur 18" because it is really painful, expensive, and requires surgery when you get to that age. I remember it hurt SOOOO bad to pee like someone sticking a knife in ur dick and I didn't want to drink liquids because it hurt so bad to pee. As a baby there is no pain b/c there are no nerves there.
I think we should pass a law that SF can't pass any laws.
The religious reason is a mark to show that the Jews are God's people. I'm not sure what the Christian one is, prob simimlar. This just seems like liberals trying to keep God out of society for the billionth time.
And LOL @ mutilation... you guys are idiots. Its absolutely fine. The female circumcision where they cut off the clit is mutilation, this isn't. If done right as a baby there are only health benefits for male circumcision.
Yep, trying to keep God out of a government with a constitutional clause for a separation of church and state is so wrong
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Hyperbole is a big part of the problem in this debate.
On November 29 2010 13:09 Irrelevant wrote: Seems like this board picked up a dvd box set of Penn and Teller's BullShit and is trying to fight everything BS has disproved.
I'm not going to argue this whole thread, because this is absolutely retarded, and there shouldn't be a law for or against this sort of thing, but whatever.
I just wanted to say that Bull Shit also disproved that exercise can change a person's body type, which is 100% inaccurate... that is to say that their research is often slanted to prove a point.
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Your literary manipulation excites me
I can do it too
I beg to differ. I'm advocating a procedure that's harmless to the vast majority of those who receive it, in return for the possible medical benefits of a plethora of terrible diseases.
Yeah, maybe that'll work if you're using some obscure definition of "harmless". It is harmful to 100% of the people that receive it, this is not an argument, it's proven medical fact.
And even if you straw man it that way, it's still not a valid argument since you're not advocating the procedure, you're advocating forcing that procedure on people who cannot decide for themselves.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
That is for the parents to decide. All of the men i have seen in the shower (lol no homo) after football is circumsized. It is normal for our culture to get circumsized, and nobody felt mutilated or damaged. I dont want the government to tell me how to raise my children. It looks normal to me and thats my choice.
No one is telling you how to raise your child. You can raise your son and tell him circumcision is normal, tell him of all the benefits and whatnot, and when he is 18, encourage him to go get it done.
The government, in this instance, is not telling you how to raise your children, it is protecting your children from bodily harm that you might cause, and trust me there are plenty of other ways it does that.
You're absolutely right, it should be your choice, that is if you want circumcision or not. Just like it should be your child's right to decide if he wants circumcision or not.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
It doesnt hurt if u do it in the first 2 weeks. I on the other hand had to get mine done when I was 8 for medical reasons and it hurt like a knife stabbing my dick when I pee'd. Some stupid woman doctor and my mom woudln't let my dad get it done. My brother got his done when he was a few days old by a rabbi.
I can't believe so many people think its mutilation and are against it.
On November 29 2010 12:53 Krigwin wrote: Basically, a guy proposes to make it flat-out illegal to circumcise anyone under the age of 17, parent approval or not. I imagine there are some medical concerns that must be considered and whatnot in the final writing, but it looks like the biggest force behind the pro-circumcision side are the religious, which is pretty interesting since it seems like a medical procedure to me.
How many people would be willing to be circumcised at 17 years old even if they liked the idea? I imagine they'd be too weirded out to do so.
On November 29 2010 12:53 Krigwin wrote: The United States remains the last Western civilization still in favor of circumcision, which has been falling in almost all European countries, and is of noticeably lower rates in Canada. Anti-circumcision movements have been growing for decades in the US as a result of this, and this, should it become law, would be the first big "intactivist" victory. This is also kind of interesting since female circumcision is illegal in the US, but the legality of male circumcision has never really been fought over (except for this bill, apparently).
Circumcising a female has COMPLETELY different effects on them than it does on males. It actually lowers the sex drive and pleasure of sex for a female significantly and depending on how much is cut, it can practically eliminate all pleasure. It destroys relationships and marriages when your partner gets no pleasure out of you and doesn't care for sex much. So yea keep it illegal.
As for male circumcision, completely outlawing it is very extreme and if somehow they're able to go through with it, people will just schedule their births at hospitals outside that city. Which would have a negative affect on the hospitals revenue or they can wait and get it done elsewhere.
Honestly can it really be called mutilation if the benefits outway the harm? I mean calling it mutilation puts it in the same category of people getting their arms chopped off.
'Elective' doesn't mean chosen for you by your parents btw.
On November 29 2010 15:08 Malarkey817 wrote: It's simply a cosmetic change.
It's functional tissue.
If your parents decided, "oh BTW head hair is unsanitary and slightly gay so we had you permanently plucked" I'm guessing you wouldn't appreciate.
To Lloyd Schofield, I say "You have no more right to be my parent than my parents do."
My parents have no more right to cut parts of my dick off than I do. In fact, I was sort of hoping they had less.
Maybe they'll sign my dick over to my wife when I get engaged. If they approve my wedding of course.
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
It doesnt hurt if u do it in the first 2 weeks.
Gonna be quite hard to prove that. It would also be hard, for the people that do so, to argue that there is no psychological damage when they have no training or skills in the field except introspection which would be highly suspect to defense mechanisms.
AMA's stance on circumcision (also from same article): "The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided."
Even the AMA doesn't think we should circumcise children.
From what I read... it seems that they dont recommend for it or against it. Says that their is potential benefits but not enough to say it should be done. Ultimately they say its the choice of the parents....
I dont really see how thats saying it doesn't think they should circumcise, it doesnt say either.
I'm sorry, I guess I phrased it wrongly. D:
To me, it seems like the AMA is acknowledging that there are benefits, but they feel that it's better to let the parents decide, and that it's not beneficial enough to directly encourage it.
Yeah and because of that.... I am saying... really san francisco trying to stop circumcision. It's really taking the parents right to decide away and giving that right to the child. Wellt hat's how I approach it
well, if there is no actual benefit to circumcision then of course it should be stopped. should you be allowed to strip off some of your babies skin, causing temporary pain? the baby won't remember it when it grows up, and it will surely heal... but what's the point? it's still unnecessary pain. very barbaric.
I understand what you're saying but coming from someone who has had it done, it's really not that big a deal.
Unless of course it goes horribly wrong. At the end of the day though it's just an inconsequential piece of skin. I think people make way too much out of circumcision..
does the fact that you don't remember it somehow make it so it didn't happen? do you think it didn't hurt when you are a baby? think about what you are saying
(unless of course u are saying u had it done when u are old enough to remember... in which case, wtf
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Hyperbole is a big part of the problem in this debate.
I strongly disagree. What part of that was hyperbole?
He is against it being banned, which necessarily implies that he thinks it is acceptable, whether in only some cases or whatever. The part about lowered risk was practically quoted verbatim. The stuff about it being permanent or damaging? Medically proven.
The only exaggeration is the exact percentage of risk that may be altered by circumcision, and that can go in either direction based on the literature.
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Your literary manipulation excites me
I can do it too
I beg to differ. I'm advocating a procedure that's harmless to the vast majority of those who receive it, in return for the possible medical benefits of a plethora of terrible diseases.
Yeah, maybe that'll work if you're using some obscure definition of "harmless". It is harmful to 100% of the people that receive it, this is not an argument, it's proven medical fact.
And even if you straw man it that way, it's still not a valid argument since you're not advocating the procedure, you're advocating forcing that procedure on people who cannot decide for themselves.
It's not a strawman. I certainly wasn't harmed by my circumcision. And heck, if the probability of me getting certain diseases was lowered, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me! Please watch the sweeping generalizations and hyperbole with statistics. 1% here, 100% there. I have a degree in mathematics, and it makes me facepalm when people get a little too excited with making up numbers that don't properly represent reality.
I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that the diseases that circumcision can help prevent can be contracted as a baby. Babies cannot make informed decisions. Neither can adolescents. This isn't just about STDs. I've listed many infections and problems. This is about parents deciding if the best, most protective course of action for their babies is to cut off a little snip of skin. It's not mutilation. It's not killing the kid. It's not even something they'll remember if they're babies. But it can be beneficial to them.
This is a BIG FUCKING WASTE of time and money. seriously? California can't afford to pass legislation like this, much less the United States as a whole. We don't have the economy which provides a luxury to spend time and money on a bill like this. It might be low cost, yes, but there are still potential hidden costs, which would come apparent with the proposition and bill examined more closely. I wish California would quit with the nanny legislation, and wasting their citizen's tax dollars.
Babies can't make decisions for themselves so I'd just judge what is best for them by trying to work out how they would decide if they were an adult. An adult would get vaccinated so the baby should be too. An adult wouldn't want someone to chop their wang, so I wouldn't force it upon a baby.
I don't really care if people have foreskin or not. It's a non-issue. I guess more important for the law is the ethics of it. I once spoke to an expectant mother who said she was going to get her child circumcised. When I asked her why she said it "looked better". I thought that was rather disgusting. A medical argument would make more sense from an ethical point of view. Although I'm not really sure there is one.
Agree with the guy above me. Also, being circumsized, I think it's actually more of a visual thing thing than anything. It looks better that way to me. And from random (often drunken) convos with other people they say it's for aesthetics more than anything nowadays, and they usually agree it looks better circumsized.
On November 29 2010 15:16 blitzkrieger wrote: Wow my home town is so dumb. My younger brother got circumcized as a baby by a rabbi and I got circumsized when I was like 7-9 or so in a hospital for medical reasons. My mom and some stupid woman doctor said it hurts the baby and they wouldn't let my dad have it done. And when ur a baby it doesn't hurt at all but it was a huge pain for me that lasted a long time since I had to get it done for medical reasons.
You cant just "get circumcized when ur 18" because it is really painful, expensive, and requires surgery when you get to that age. I remember it hurt SOOOO bad to pee like someone sticking a knife in ur dick and I didn't want to drink liquids because it hurt so bad to pee. As a baby there is no pain b/c there are no nerves there.
I think we should pass a law that SF can't pass any laws.
The religious reason is a mark to show that the Jews are God's people. I'm not sure what the Christian one is, prob simimlar. This just seems like liberals trying to keep God out of society for the billionth time.
And LOL @ mutilation... you guys are idiots. Its absolutely fine. The female circumcision where they cut off the clit is mutilation, this isn't. If done right as a baby there are only health benefits for male circumcision.
Yep, trying to keep God out of a government with a constitutional clause for a separation of church and state is so wrong
The "separation of church and state" principle (there is no separation clause) has been so horrendously warped. What started as a prevention of theocracy has turned into a war on religion.
Forcing a ban on a mostly religious and entirely cosmetic procedure goes against the whole freedom of religion bit in the first amendment.
On November 29 2010 15:34 Rebornlife wrote: Agree with the guy above me. Also, being circumsized, I think it's actually more of a visual thing thing than anything. It looks better that way to me. And from random (often drunken) convos with other people they say it's for aesthetics more than anything nowadays, and they usually agree it looks better circumsized.
Ah yes. aesthetics. So should parents be able to force their children into getting labiaplasties?
On November 29 2010 14:15 aztrorisk wrote: Hey guys, I want to know if I been circumcized but I don't want to google it in case I come across some NSFW pictures. Can someone tell me how I can check if I have been circumcized?
Well, the way I was told as a child was, anteater (not circumcised), or worm wearing a helmet (circumcised).
But really, just google it.
Damn it! I hate my parents. I can't believe that they never told me. FML
For any public policy issue, you have to look at scope and significance.
In this case, the net benefit of keeping circumcisions is a lowered rate of certain diseases (which dont happen if you take care of yourself anyways).
against the net negative of some of the procedures going horribly wrong.
The procedure itself doesn't normally go wrong, but it is less then straight forward because they never know how much to cut. And sometimes things go wrong. It happens less then people get diseases due to not having a circumcision.... but not as much as one would think.
And the significance of the problem is greater. Much greater.
Scope? Probably slightly better to not outlaw circumcisions. Significance? Its definitely better to do away with a somewhat risky and superfluous surgery. Esp when it only helps due to a failure of the person in question.
On November 29 2010 15:34 Rebornlife wrote: Agree with the guy above me. Also, being circumsized, I think it's actually more of a visual thing thing than anything. It looks better that way to me. And from random (often drunken) convos with other people they say it's for aesthetics more than anything nowadays, and they usually agree it looks better circumsized.
Erect or flaccid?
Erect circumcised penis's look worse to me with the strange scaring.
There is also the question of how penis aesthetics is influenced by what we see. In particular most of our images of genitals, I'd assume, come from pornography - a great deal of which is produced in the USA. What would our opinions be if most pornography was produced in Europe/Australasia?
I don't think you can underestimate the power of pornography in dictating the aesthetic ideals of genitals. We already see the affects of such things with concern over the size of penises and breasts, and now even the shapes of vulvas.
On November 29 2010 15:32 Applecakes wrote: Babies can't make decisions for themselves so I'd just judge what is best for them by trying to work out how they would decide if they were an adult. An adult would get vaccinated so the baby should be too. An adult wouldn't want someone to chop their wang, so I wouldn't force it upon a baby.
I don't really care if people have foreskin or not. It's a non-issue. I guess more important for the law is the ethics of it. I once spoke to an expectant mother who said she was going to get her child circumcised. When I asked her why she said it "looked better". I thought that was rather disgusting. A medical argument would make more sense from an ethical point of view. Although I'm not really sure there is one.
Yeh I agree. Lets also not abort babies and wait till they are 18 and then they can decide if they want to die. Good idea.
If you disagree with circumcision then don't do it for your kids. But making a law to ban it is just stupid.
Man I can't wait for God to put all these liberals in hell...
On November 29 2010 14:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't see it getting banned until age seventeen, because many of the above diseases can be contracted as a baby or adolescent. It would be nice to have a lowered risk even as an infant.
Think about what you are saying. You are saying that it is acceptable to foist a permanent, damaging medical procedure on infants that cannot decide for themselves because it "would be nice" to have a lowered risk of some diseases, which, again, depending on the studies you want to believe, can be less than 1%. Just think about that for a second.
Your literary manipulation excites me
I can do it too
I beg to differ. I'm advocating a procedure that's harmless to the vast majority of those who receive it, in return for the possible medical benefits of a plethora of terrible diseases.
Yeah, maybe that'll work if you're using some obscure definition of "harmless". It is harmful to 100% of the people that receive it, this is not an argument, it's proven medical fact.
And even if you straw man it that way, it's still not a valid argument since you're not advocating the procedure, you're advocating forcing that procedure on people who cannot decide for themselves.
It's not a strawman. I certainly wasn't harmed by my circumcision. And heck, if the probability of me getting certain diseases was lowered, that sounds like a pretty good deal to me! Please watch the sweeping generalizations and hyperbole with statistics. 1% here, 100% there. I have a degree in mathematics, and it makes me facepalm when people get a little too excited with making up numbers that don't properly represent reality.
I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that the diseases that circumcision can help prevent can be contracted as a baby. Babies cannot make informed decisions. Neither can adolescents. This isn't just about STDs. I've listed many infections and problems. This is about parents deciding if the best, most protective course of action for their babies is to cut off a little snip of skin. It's not mutilation. It's not killing the kid. It's not even something they'll remember if they're babies. But it can be beneficial to them.
And you accuse me of strawman arguments?
Sounds like a good deal to you? Wonderful, then please go ahead and have it done if it sounds so good to you. Oh wait, you can't, because that choice was already made for you before you had the ability to decide for yourself!
Again with the accusations of exaggerations. I am not exaggerating anything. 100% of babies being circumcised feel pain until you give me evidence of a Hulk baby. That is not an exaggeration. 100% of people who have been circumcised end up losing their foreskin, which necessarily includes some loss of neurosensitivity. That is not an exaggeration either. That's kind of the entire point. Some diseases have their risks lowered by 1% by circumcision? Again, not an exaggeration, it depends on the disease and it depends on the study at hand you're referencing. If you have better numbers to "represent reality", then please contribute them instead of senselessly accusing others of hyperbole.
And I'm not sure why you feel the need to point out that the diseases that circumcision can prevent can be contracted as a baby. That seems pretty irrelevant to the general debate of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. The numbers, from either side, seem too low, poorly substantiated, or otherwise insignificant to warrant allowing parents to decide this course of action, as you put it. If it, say, prevented many infections and problems by a rate of 50-100%, then you might have a case arguing that parents should be allowed to do so. I honestly cannot even believe you're attempting to make a medical argument when the numbers given (by both sides) are all so low it's not enough to justify pretty much anything (such as a vaccine), much less a procedure as permanent as this. And this is not even factoring the other risks of circumcision, which in some cases can actually be more harmful than the diseases whose risks you're supposedly lowering.
Its a bit ridiculous to claim that "the baby can't decide for itself, so it shouldn't be done."
Lets be honest here. ITS A BABY. For the next 4 years of its life (and for even longer) you are going to be making literally every single decision for it, and almost all of them are going to be more substantial then whether they have a small amount of skin on their penis or not. That argument is just silly.
With the exception of religious reasons, parents get their child circumcised because they think it will help ward of possible disease, which has been proven in some cases. Its a decisions based off parenting instinct, just like all the other decisions that your parents made for you as you were growing up.
And please don't bring out the word play "its shameless irreversible, excruciating MUTILATION, of a helpless babies genitals, only a soulless heathen would submit a newborn to such torture". Just shut up. People have been getting circumcised for thousands of years, and still do in our modern society. Why do people feel the need to bring up issues that arent even really issues? I think society was ok with this one, now people are attempting to set up a law that basically takes a small bit of parenting power away from me. No thanks.
And from my experiences with girls/discussions with girls I've noticed an overwhelming trend that favors a cut penis. It just looks better apparently.
On November 29 2010 15:32 Applecakes wrote: Babies can't make decisions for themselves so I'd just judge what is best for them by trying to work out how they would decide if they were an adult. An adult would get vaccinated so the baby should be too. An adult wouldn't want someone to chop their wang, so I wouldn't force it upon a baby.
I don't really care if people have foreskin or not. It's a non-issue. I guess more important for the law is the ethics of it. I once spoke to an expectant mother who said she was going to get her child circumcised. When I asked her why she said it "looked better". I thought that was rather disgusting. A medical argument would make more sense from an ethical point of view. Although I'm not really sure there is one.
Yeh I agree. Lets also not abort babies and wait till they are 18 and then they can decide if they want to die. Good idea.
If you disagree with circumcision then don't do it for your kids. But making a law to ban it is just stupid.
Man I can't wait for God to put all these liberals in hell...
Hey! I beg to disagree man. I just recently found out that I was circumcized and I don't like it one bit. Let the child grow til their 18 and decide if they want to get circumcized or not. I think they should ban circumcision and abortion because the parents have no right to choose your fate.
On November 29 2010 15:32 Applecakes wrote: Babies can't make decisions for themselves so I'd just judge what is best for them by trying to work out how they would decide if they were an adult. An adult would get vaccinated so the baby should be too. An adult wouldn't want someone to chop their wang, so I wouldn't force it upon a baby.
I don't really care if people have foreskin or not. It's a non-issue. I guess more important for the law is the ethics of it. I once spoke to an expectant mother who said she was going to get her child circumcised. When I asked her why she said it "looked better". I thought that was rather disgusting. A medical argument would make more sense from an ethical point of view. Although I'm not really sure there is one.
Yeh I agree. Lets also not abort babies and wait till they are 18 and then they can decide if they want to die. Good idea.
If you disagree with circumcision then don't do it for your kids. But making a law to ban it is just stupid.
Man I can't wait for God to put all these liberals in hell...
you kinda flip flopped on your talking points there...?
On November 29 2010 15:51 MadVillain wrote: And from my experiences with girls/discussions with girls I've noticed an overwhelming trend that favors a cut penis. It just looks better apparently.
and I prefer a pretty vulva. Should we allow parents to force their daughters into labiaplasties as well?
I was circumcised when I was a few days old. Honestly I wish I hadn't been. There's no reason for circumcision beyond ridiculous superstition and societal factors. If I ever have a son there's no way in hell I'm getting him circumcised. The whole ritual is tribalistic and brutal. It's just unnatural.
That said, I don't think they need to be banned/outlawed. If you're not circumcised as a baby you're probably never gonna go through with the procedure as an adult because as a baby you don't remember the pain. From a perspective that solely looks at physical pain I don't think it's that unethical, considering nobody remembers the pain that you feel after only being alive for a few days.
However it is completely ridiculous, a waste of time and money and like most traditions, founded in bullshit.
On November 29 2010 15:51 MadVillain wrote: And from my experiences with girls/discussions with girls I've noticed an overwhelming trend that favors a cut penis. It just looks better apparently.
and I prefer a pretty vulva. Should we allow parents to force their daughters into labiaplasties as well?
Right cause a circumcision vs a labiaplasty is a totally valid comparison. Stop trolling.
On November 29 2010 15:32 Applecakes wrote: Babies can't make decisions for themselves so I'd just judge what is best for them by trying to work out how they would decide if they were an adult. An adult would get vaccinated so the baby should be too. An adult wouldn't want someone to chop their wang, so I wouldn't force it upon a baby.
I don't really care if people have foreskin or not. It's a non-issue. I guess more important for the law is the ethics of it. I once spoke to an expectant mother who said she was going to get her child circumcised. When I asked her why she said it "looked better". I thought that was rather disgusting. A medical argument would make more sense from an ethical point of view. Although I'm not really sure there is one.
Yeh I agree. Lets also not abort babies and wait till they are 18 and then they can decide if they want to die. Good idea.
If you disagree with circumcision then don't do it for your kids. But making a law to ban it is just stupid.
Man I can't wait for God to put all these liberals in hell...
One of the main argument between prolife and prochoice is at what point that a fetus can considered to be a life or human. Circumcision on that other than mainly focus two factor; how much pain does the baby feels as a result of this, and does it have any medical benefit or is it mainly aesthetic. Apple and orange, trying to draw similarities between circumcision and abortion is just stupid.
On November 29 2010 15:51 MadVillain wrote: And from my experiences with girls/discussions with girls I've noticed an overwhelming trend that favors a cut penis. It just looks better apparently.
and I prefer a pretty vulva. Should we allow parents to force their daughters into labiaplasties as well?
Right cause a circumcision vs a labiaplasty is a totally valid comparison. Stop trolling.
you didn't refute his point at all. his point was very valid. you already claimed the basis for circumcision, for you, is cosmetic. so how is that not a valid comparison?
On November 29 2010 15:51 MadVillain wrote: And from my experiences with girls/discussions with girls I've noticed an overwhelming trend that favors a cut penis. It just looks better apparently.
and I prefer a pretty vulva. Should we allow parents to force their daughters into labiaplasties as well?
Right cause a circumcision vs a labiaplasty is a totally valid comparison. Stop trolling.
If aesthetics and "power for parents" are the arguments you're going to resort to, yes, it is a valid reductio ad absurdum.
On November 29 2010 15:57 Meta wrote: I was circumcised when I was a few days old. Honestly I wish I hadn't been. There's no reason for circumcision beyond ridiculous superstition and societal factors. If I ever have a son there's no way in hell I'm getting him circumcised. The whole ritual is tribalistic and brutal. It's just unnatural.
That said, I don't think they need to be banned/outlawed. If you're not circumcised as a baby you're probably never gonna go through with the procedure as an adult because as a baby you don't remember the pain. From a perspective that solely looks at physical pain I don't think it's that unethical, considering nobody remembers the pain that you feel after only being alive for a few days.
However it is completely ridiculous, a waste of time and money and like most traditions, founded in bullshit.
Thing is, especially in the past it was not based on just superstition. Believe it or not there was a time when people didn't have access to showers/baths everyday. (this is still the case in many places throughout the world) And circumcision becomes immediately beneficial as it significantly decreases your risks of contracting disease on your dick.
This isn't really the case anymore for reasons that were just stated, but it definitely wasn't a practice rooted purely in superstition.
Edit: That last part of my post was MY opinion, the rest of my post gave the reasons that should actually used in an argument. I'll restate them if you missed them:
1. It does slightly reduce the risk of contracting some diseases and makes proper hygiene easier 2. Its a decision that parents deserve to have, just as they have the powe to make decisions about every other aspect of a newborn babies life. I mean whether the child has a piece of skin on his dick or not is one of the more minor decisions that a parent will have to make. 3. Its an overstep of governments authority, this issue shouldn't even be up for debate as society was perfectly fine with it before. If you want your child to be circumcised then say yes, if not say no. Why does the government need to intervene here? Its pretty silly imo.
On November 29 2010 15:57 Meta wrote: I was circumcised when I was a few days old. Honestly I wish I hadn't been. There's no reason for circumcision beyond ridiculous superstition and societal factors. If I ever have a son there's no way in hell I'm getting him circumcised. The whole ritual is tribalistic and brutal. It's just unnatural.
That said, I don't think they need to be banned/outlawed. If you're not circumcised as a baby you're probably never gonna go through with the procedure as an adult because as a baby you don't remember the pain. From a perspective that solely looks at physical pain I don't think it's that unethical, considering nobody remembers the pain that you feel after only being alive for a few days.
However it is completely ridiculous, a waste of time and money and like most traditions, founded in bullshit.
Thing is, especially in the past it was not based on just superstition. Believe it or not there was a time when people didn't have access to showers/baths everyday. (this is still the case in many places throughout the world) And circumcision becomes immediately beneficial as it significantly decreases your risks of contracting disease on your dick.
This isn't really the case anymore for reasons that were just stated, but it definitely wasn't a practice rooted purely in superstition.
Edit: That last part of my post was MY opinion, the rest of my post gave the reasons that should actually used in an argument. I'll restate them if you missed them:
1. It does slightly reduce the risk of contracting some diseases and makes proper hygiene easier 2. Its a decision that parents deserve to have, just as they have the powe to make decisions about every other aspect of a newborn babies life. I mean whether the child has a piece of skin on his dick or not is one of the more minor decisions that a parent will have to make. 3. Its an overstep of governments authority, this issue shouldn't even be up for debate as society was perfectly fine with it before.
If that isn't the case anymore, why should we still do it today?
The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Darkplasma ball if you actually read sources other than ones that support your argument you'll see that the health effects are not unequivocally positive. It's VERY ambiguous and you could easily support either side, as people are doing in this thread.
That being said, I'm American, and my captain has his hat. I have a friend who always rails about how unjust the procedure is, and being in my unique (for my country) position I can say it only matters in the sense that it matters to YOU, an individual.
I've never had a problem but if some girl refused to blow me, even if I went down on her, which I can assure you is on average a more arduous than sucking cock (though I never have, I've heard from girls who have done both that muff diving is worse then penis fellating), I would feel violated.
What I oppose is ignorance, and I think it would take an ignorant person to care at all. If you're socially aware you should be aware of the procedure and that the changes are minimal enough that society is split. I wash my penis every day, by the way. It's pretty nice.
Having parts of your penis cut off should be a choice. Seems odd how can people be so resistant to this? Basic hygiene and bathing pretty much eliminate and health arguments.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Well that's not necessarily the case. Humans have various tendencies, and I would expect that for many parents, they do it simply because it is how it was for them. I expect for lots and lots of couples, no deep thought is put into the matter.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
So many people don't even know what a circumcision is or whether they were circumcised that I wonder if that's even true.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
That is as much a women's rights issue as anything else. There are a lot of other complications here that don't exist in western countries.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
Indeed. Somalian women, unlike American men, are forcibly circumcised as babies.
Oh wait so are American men.
I guess Mindcrime must've meant that American men don't have more non-circumcision-related rights than Somalian women and are required to wear full-body-veils as well as not own property. What a silly thing to say, Mindcrime. And shame on you for bringing non-germane social justice into a discussion of circumcision.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
That is as much a women's rights issue as anything else. There are a lot of other complications here that don't exist in western countries.
If that is a women's rights issue then circumcision must certainly be a rights issue as well, whether it be men's rights or individual rights. The amount of political power held by men in America relative to that held by women in Somalia does not change that.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
Indeed. Somalian women, unlike American men, are forcibly circumcised as babies.
Oh wait so are American men.
Except that generation of American fathers will have the choice whether to circumcise their children or not based upon their experience, and that generation of Somalian mothers will not.
Tradition be damned. Just because something been around for a long time doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. At one point, people believed that the world is flat, that whites superior to black, that denying the existence of god or being homosexual is punishable by death. Thus arguing that something should still be allowed to continue on because it been that way for forever is a horrible argument. Instead, the argument should mainly focus on weather or not there is any health benefit to circumcision or is it mainly for aesthetic, how much pain does a child of a few day old really endure or if they they endure any at all, and most importantly how much power should a parent have over their offspring.
Different people have different religion with different tradition and not all of them agree with each other. It would be hypocritical to allowed something to continue on based how deeply rooted it is in one's tradition like circumcision and ban another deeply rooted tradition like polygamy or even worse banned something based no another deeply rooted religion like gay marriage.
Law should enacted only on the premise of protecting welfare something in comparison to everything else. Any more than that, I truly believed it is violating the core principle of this great nation of mine.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
So many people don't even know what a circumcision is or whether they were circumcised that I wonder if that's even true.
This is one of the most important points. A friend of mine was telling me about one of her friends fucked some lad from abroad and got on the internet to look at pictures of penises because she didn't understand that the issue was that he was uncircurmcised ... she didn't know quite what she was looking at.
And I consider this individual to otherwise be pretty smart. I can't fucking believe that shit.
i dont really understand people these days. does it honestly matter here in America if you have a uncircumcised penis or not? some of these people act as if its chopping off your entire dick... i am circumsized and i am quite happy with it. my gf is also very happy with it. so its not a big deal to me.
doesn't get that serious to start rallies protesting against it. and calling it "mutilation" is beyond mental retardation.
On November 29 2010 13:28 Roe wrote: Sounds good. I don't think a parent should have the power to mutilate their children, but supposedly if it's illegal people will go to back alley places and it will be even more dangerous
I was tortured as a child.
I was given booster shots and vaccines against extinct viruses without my consent.
I demand that in addition to this law we allow kids to decide for themselves whether or not they need vaccines.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
Indeed. Somalian women, unlike American men, are forcibly circumcised as babies.
Oh wait so are American men.
Except that generation of American fathers will have the choice whether to circumcise their children or not based upon their experience, and that generation of Somalian mothers will not.
well what severedevil is trying to say is that majority rule isn't always right. Look at the Nazis. In Germany, most people (not all) supported the Nazis at that time. Just because the majority of people believe that their child should be circumcised doesn't mean it is right because it is violating the rights of the minority. Because it violates those rights, it should be banned.
On November 29 2010 13:28 Roe wrote: Sounds good. I don't think a parent should have the power to mutilate their children, but supposedly if it's illegal people will go to back alley places and it will be even more dangerous
I was tortured as a child.
I was given booster shots and vaccines against extinct viruses without my consent.
I demand that in addition to this law we allow kids to decide for themselves whether or not they need vaccines.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
That is as much a women's rights issue as anything else. There are a lot of other complications here that don't exist in western countries.
If that is a women's rights issue then circumcision must certainly be a rights issue as well, whether it be men's rights or individual rights. The amount of political power held by men in America relative to that held by women in Somalia does not change that.
I think the political power women hold matters a lot. If it's a male dominated society and women are forced into FGM for the sake of men then that doesn't really compare to circumcision.
Admittedly, I don't know a lot about FGM, I only read a few journal articles on it many years ago. One of the articles I read had testimonies from men why they like FGM, for example some get pleasure knowing that their counterpart is in pain during sex, or it creates a tighter vagina, etc. There are a lot of societal pressures that influence parent's decision into forcing their children to have FGM that doesn't make it as much of a free choice as in the western world.
On November 29 2010 13:28 Roe wrote: Sounds good. I don't think a parent should have the power to mutilate their children, but supposedly if it's illegal people will go to back alley places and it will be even more dangerous
I was tortured as a child.
I was given booster shots and vaccines against extinct viruses without my consent.
I demand that in addition to this law we allow kids to decide for themselves whether or not they need vaccines.
I agree, I don't expose my body to vaccines (after watching I AM LEGEND).
I also think that we should let the child decide if they want to go to school or not. If I had this choice, I would have stayed uneducated and became a SC BW pro and I may have been able to rival Jaedong.
On November 29 2010 16:05 BlackJack wrote: The majority of people approve of their parent's decision to have them circumcised. If they didn't then they wouldn't have the same procedure done to their own children when they reproduced and the national rate would automatically diminish to nothing.
Okay? You could say the exact same thing about the extreme forms of FGM practiced in Somalia.
...
How you can equally compare the cultural environment between men in America and women in Somalia are the same is beyond me.
Indeed. Somalian women, unlike American men, are forcibly circumcised as babies.
Oh wait so are American men.
Except that generation of American fathers will have the choice whether to circumcise their children or not based upon their experience, and that generation of Somalian mothers will not.
well what severedevil is trying to say is that majority rule isn't always right. Look at the Nazis. In Germany, most people (not all) supported the Nazis at that time. Just because the majority of people believe that their child should be circumcised doesn't mean it is right because it is violating the rights of the minority. Because it violates those rights, it should be banned.
We are not fighting Nazis. It is not that big of a deal. People that want their children to have it will do it. Those that dont wont have to. If it really "mutilated" their penis then people would stop doing it to their children. People hav been choosing it for a long time so obviously they dont care.
On November 29 2010 13:28 Roe wrote: Sounds good. I don't think a parent should have the power to mutilate their children, but supposedly if it's illegal people will go to back alley places and it will be even more dangerous
I was tortured as a child.
I was given booster shots and vaccines against extinct viruses without my consent.
I demand that in addition to this law we allow kids to decide for themselves whether or not they need vaccines.
I agree, I don't expose my body to vaccines (after watching I AM LEGEND).
I also think that we should let the child decide if they want to go to school or not. If I had this choice, I would have stayed uneducated and became a SC BW pro and I may have been able to rival Jaedong.
I believe in FREE WILL!!
Come on people, you gotta give better argument than this. You are comparing things that might have a major and long lasting effect in a child life with a huge difference in the positive and negative to circumcision...
I'm not even going to quote any one single post because 75% of it is exactly the same thing. Giving vaccines to babies is a health concern from an actual medical standpoint. Circumcising your babies has no health benefits now that we have actual hygiene practices. It was only mandated in the times when men were drafted into the military and infections were occurring due to lowcrawling thru mud and the various incapabilities of showering on the front lines. HOWEVER, it's always been a religious deal to do so. You know butchering your children's genitelia sounds like a religious thing to me anyway, only they would be psycho enough to do this. The ONLY time a male wants his dick circumsized is due to social peer pressure that "his" is different so they end up doing it to themselves or when their sons come around they do it for them, because if they had the "choice" as a kid they would've wanted it done. This right here is just our need to be social sheep following what everyone else does and forcing our beliefs on others. You can not use the excuse our fathers did it and now the next round of fathers do it too. Society pressures us into this decision. Also, doctors want circumcisions to be legal. They sell the "biowaste" to makeup companies. Yes they sell your foreskin to make face and other types of cremes for women to use on themselves. It's a major money import for hospitals so doctors are encouraged/forced to pressure parents into getting their kids circumcised. If they ever even give them the choice, there have been plenty of occasions where doctors went ahead under the assumption "everyone" does it and just fucking went ballistic shredding and butchering a babies cock. How does this even sound right to any of you? Female gender mulitation is a more barbaric and emotionally challenging surgery because of the ideals behind it and the fact the surgery is way more scarring and violent, it was started to force women into getting less pleasure during sex, to keep their females tied to one man that they wouldnt be tempted to have sex with other men for the pleasure (that sound cool to you?) and then religious/social traditions followed (that whole shit shoot) and now here's the KICKER Male genitalia mutilation HAPPENED THE EXACT SAME FUCKING WAY. Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like.
Now what I think they should do is ban it for a couple generations until society doesn't view butchering babies as a cool thing to do anymore. Then open it up to religious freaks to do so to their children, free choice and all supports body mutilation to babies. It's sick, a girl/guy can't get piercings and a tattoo w/o parental consent but a guy can get his dick chopped to pieces without his consent. How does it make sense to you pro-circumcision freaks to in effect tattoo your babies body? (but not only visually, let's assume this tattoo also removes 75% of its tactile nerves)
you people make me sick. Yes I'm hostile, as hostile as I would be to some guy coming onto this forum supporting child pornography and serial killing. It's just as bad in my eyes so I'm sorry in advance for being passionate in my response. Not calling anyone specific out because I'm not insulting any single person, I'm attacking the idea of pro-circumcision.
The American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated: "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child’s current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child." The AAP recommends that if parents choose to circumcise, analgesia should be used to reduce pain associated with circumcision. It states that circumcision should only be performed on newborns who are stable and healthy.
Edit: I couldn't find an exact % of fine-touch receptors lost due to circumcision so read this P.S. most however are lost to the surgery.
I agree, I don't expose my body to vaccines (after watching I AM LEGEND).
I also think that we should let the child decide if they want to go to school or not. If I had this choice, I would have stayed uneducated and became a SC BW pro and I may have been able to rival Jaedong.
I believe in FREE WILL!!
the vaccine comparison doesn't hold water, children are given enough vaccines and *only* enough vaccines to prevent them from being carriers and suffering from diseases as children. Adult onset vaccines are given only once the child is old enough to make informed consent (practical, not lawful). The main reason it is tolerated medically is because unvaccinated children are both vulnerable themselves, but also a significant danger to their fellow citizens.
An uncircumcised child is rather unlikely to be a danger to others compared to a circumcised one, and the health benefits of circumcision only come into play at sexual maturity, thus it makes sense for the person to choose, like any similar vaccine, to undergo the procedure if they deem they are going to be at risk.
There is no reason for a child to be circumcised until they are capable of both understanding what the procedure does and providing informed consent. Since this is the case, and since any other path is causing both unnecessary pain and suffering and acting against the child's potential future will, it seems logical for such a ban to be created. I don't agree with a lot of regulation, but that regarding making permanent modifications to a child without very, very good reason is something I can get behind
Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Well all those things are classified as mutilation. And require parental consent if their child wants one under-age. So we just believe consent should be a two-way road in this regard. And it is "bad" it's part of your body being chopped off for no reason, how is that not bad? Also nerves that deal directly with pleasure are lost in the surgery another con. Btw I will keep repeating myself for as long as people keep saying incorrect statements.
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Do you support allowing getting piercings for infants then?
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Well all those things are classified as mutilation. And require parental consent if their child wants one under-age. So we just believe consent should be a two-way road in this regard. And it is "bad" it's part of your body being chopped off for no reason, how is that not bad? Also nerves that deal directly with pleasure are lost in the surgery another con. Btw I will keep repeating myself for as long as people keep saying incorrect statements.
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth...
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Do you support allowing getting piercings for infants then?
what type of question is that? first off piercings are mainly a fashion statement. i think your question is referring to would i allow piercings for like a 13 year old and that answer is maybe. however there are people that allow there child to get piercings at the age of 10. is it bad? no. does it harm them? no. the only thing it does is give a bad image to the parent because piercings at that age are looked down upon in general society for no reason at all.
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth...
Circumcision is a process that can't be undone, right? So then there's two alternatives:
- be selfish and do not let your child have any say at all and chop his foreskin off, he can't change this decision later in life or - wait till he's older and let him decide himself whether or not he wants to circumcise himself.
Hm i don't think someone can tell which one is better unless they tried both, let's say getting circumcision at 20-25 age. I don't think there is any hygiene issue with uncircumcised penis in this modern age. I am from Europe and i don't have circumcised dick and i don't really feel like i would need/want it. I visited US and had sex with 2 girls, both were absolutely fine with it and one really liked to play with it. Only reason people might feel about it in a bad way is how they were grown up and that it is different.
As i say, i don't know which one is better cause i haven't tried the other option, but i think it is kinda meh, when parents decide this. Man should be able to decide about his own junk.
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Well all those things are classified as mutilation. And require parental consent if their child wants one under-age. So we just believe consent should be a two-way road in this regard. And it is "bad" it's part of your body being chopped off for no reason, how is that not bad? Also nerves that deal directly with pleasure are lost in the surgery another con. Btw I will keep repeating myself for as long as people keep saying incorrect statements.
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth...
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Do you support allowing getting piercings for infants then?
what type of question is that? first off piercings are mainly a fashion statement. i think your question is referring to would i allow piercings for like a 13 year old and that answer is maybe. however there are people that allow there child to get piercings at the age of 10. is it bad? no. does it harm them? no. the only thing it does is give a bad image to the parent because piercings at that age are looked down upon in general society for no reason at all.
Ok, so your point is that you have no point? How can you say something that's scientifically proven to be true is false just because from your point of view (limited I might add, due to the fact you'll never know what having sex with an uncircumcised penis feels like) says otherwise? Are you fucking with me? I'm "false" because you haven o fucking clue what you're talking about? ok.
Yah disfiguration of your body is looked down on for females but not for males, it's the same thing even if the social taboos for it aren't the same. They say it's bad for females therefore it's bad for males. Sure it's not needed persay but neither is 1 of your kidneys, your hair, much of your skin and a conscious mind, I mean look at those vegetables they get along just fine with no motor function, but in order to live our lives to the fullest we should be allowed to choose for ourselves if we want that. I hate that I was circumcised, i was given no fuckin choice on the matter just what my fucktard parents decided was best for me.
A child CAN'T MAKE DECISIONS FOR ITSELF so on this as you put it meaningless procedure, why not FUCKING WAIT FOR WHEN THEY'RE 18!? or hell even 16, it's a life changing procedure that you're are passing off as meaningless to the child when it may very well not be. Just because you fucking agree doesn't mean everyone does. God, you're so damn narrowminded in your beliefs it disgusts me.
I didn't realize people were just the property of their parents. But apparently in your sick twisted mind you own your child and can decide to do whatever you please with it. Like fuck it, sell it into slavery, butcher it's body to an image of your approval. Sickening.
It's bad because the children are given no say in the matter. It's bad because it FUCKING HURTS, they are inflicting pain on a baby, how about I find your child and just set a fucking burnt iron on its skin to mark it and as the baby screams you tell me no harm is done. If you're referring to the umbilical cord THAT ATTACHS US TO THE MOTHER?! then I'm done speaking with you cause I don't want to insult you any further, it wouldn't be worth it.
You referred his valid argument to getting piercings to a 10 yr old. what are you 12? he said giving piercings to AN INFANT. Infant, not 10 where it's fine. But giving a jacob's ladder to a newborn, or a tattoo to a newborn, or nipple piercings to a newborn, or skin protrusions to a newborn, all because the parents know what's right for their kid. None of that is any more harmful than a circumcision. Does it make it right? No, so what makes circumcision ok in today's society?
On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote: The ONLY time a male wants his dick circumsized is due to social peer pressure that "his" is different so they end up doing it to themselves or when their sons come around they do it for them, because if they had the "choice" as a kid they would've wanted it done.
Um. I was circumcised 'cos my foreskin didn't grow at the same rate as the rest, and therefore restricted my penis terribly and hurt like hell when I had to pee, it's such a vivid memory I can still recall the pain.
I'm not sure which group of people I think have the less important cause: The people trying to ban circumcision or women trying to go topless.
I was trying to write up another joke about 2 more useless threads about social politics that would spring up, but I honestly can't think of any other ridiculous stances. The use of television or movies in the classroom? Teaching kids to write should be banned as it's outdated? I dunno', I'm struggling with this one.
On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote: The ONLY time a male wants his dick circumsized is due to social peer pressure that "his" is different so they end up doing it to themselves or when their sons come around they do it for them, because if they had the "choice" as a kid they would've wanted it done.
Um. I was circumcised 'cos my foreskin didn't grow at the same rate as the rest, and therefore restricted my penis terribly and hurt like hell when I had to pee, it's such a vivid memory I can still recall the pain.
The hell would I do in San Fran?
There should be some medical exceptions of course...
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Well all those things are classified as mutilation. And require parental consent if their child wants one under-age. So we just believe consent should be a two-way road in this regard. And it is "bad" it's part of your body being chopped off for no reason, how is that not bad? Also nerves that deal directly with pleasure are lost in the surgery another con. Btw I will keep repeating myself for as long as people keep saying incorrect statements.
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth...
On November 29 2010 18:26 JohannesH wrote:
On November 29 2010 17:52 Ballistixz wrote:
On November 29 2010 17:43 Exal wrote: Guys for the love of god stop saying that circumcision prevents disease!!
There is no statistical evidence to prove that it does, actually there is proof pointing to circumcision increasing your risk of transmitting diseases.
The idea that circumcision is good for you is propaganda and biased articles put out by people with religious agendas.
its also not bad for you either. so whats the problem? like i said i was circumcised and i have had no problems with it just like many other Americans have had no problem with there circumcisions. infact i never even thought about it in my life untill this thread was made. there is no harm in the procedure so you cant justify that it is a "bad" thing. calling it mutilation would be the same thing as calling tounge piercings/earpiercings/etc mutliation. after all, you ARE getting holes drilled into your body.
Do you support allowing getting piercings for infants then?
what type of question is that? first off piercings are mainly a fashion statement. i think your question is referring to would i allow piercings for like a 13 year old and that answer is maybe. however there are people that allow there child to get piercings at the age of 10. is it bad? no. does it harm them? no. the only thing it does is give a bad image to the parent because piercings at that age are looked down upon in general society for no reason at all.
Ok, so your point is that you have no point? How can you say something that's scientifically proven to be true is false just because from your point of view (limited I might add, due to the fact you'll never know what having sex with an uncircumcised penis feels like) says otherwise? Are you fucking with me? I'm "false" because you haven o fucking clue what you're talking about? ok.
Yah disfiguration of your body is looked down on for females but not for males, it's the same thing even if the social taboos for it aren't the same. They say it's bad for females therefore it's bad for males. Sure it's not needed persay but neither is 1 of your kidneys, your hair, much of your skin and a conscious mind, I mean look at those vegetables they get along just fine with no motor function, but in order to live our lives to the fullest we should be allowed to choose for ourselves if we want that. I hate that I was circumcised, i was given no fuckin choice on the matter just what my fucktard parents decided was best for me.
A child CAN'T MAKE DECISIONS FOR ITSELF so on this as you put it meaningless procedure, why not FUCKING WAIT FOR WHEN THEY'RE 18!? or hell even 16, it's a life changing procedure that you're are passing off as meaningless to the child when it may very well not be. Just because you fucking agree doesn't mean everyone does. God, you're so damn narrowminded in your beliefs it disgusts me.
I didn't realize people were just the property of their parents. But apparently in your sick twisted mind you own your child and can decide to do whatever you please with it. Like fuck it, sell it into slavery, butcher it's body to an image of your approval. Sickening.
It's bad because the children are given no say in the matter. It's bad because it FUCKING HURTS, they are inflicting pain on a baby, how about I find your child and just set a fucking burnt iron on its skin to mark it and as the baby screams you tell me no harm is done. If you're referring to the umbilical cord THAT ATTACHS US TO THE MOTHER?! then I'm done speaking with you cause I don't want to insult you any further, it wouldn't be worth it.
You referred his valid argument to getting piercings to a 10 yr old. what are you 12? he said giving piercings to AN INFANT. Infant, not 10 where it's fine. But giving a jacob's ladder to a newborn, or a tattoo to a newborn, or nipple piercings to a newborn, or skin protrusions to a newborn, all because the parents know what's right for their kid. None of that is any more harmful than a circumcision. Does it make it right? No, so what makes circumcision ok in today's society?
User was temp banned for this post.
this is exactly what im talking about. people take this way to seriously.i wont comment on anything you said since your temp banned and cant respond back, but you have proven my point with this post.
It's harder for a chick to give you a bj if you're uncircumsized. But from what I understand, circumsized dicks are also prone to forming calluses because there is no foreskin protecting the head over the years - which could lead to loss in sensitivity for the guy.
On November 29 2010 19:31 PrideNeverDie wrote: no women will ever make fun of you for having a circumsized penis, but you can have some chick laugh at your uncircumsized one.
The girls that would "make fun" are stupid teenagers and it's only because it is normal in the US to think that way. People make fun of you cause you are different, but it would be perfectly ok if everyone else would be that way, so your ridiculous argument is invalid.
On November 29 2010 19:39 Zidane wrote: It's harder for a chick to give you a bj if you're uncircumsized. But from what I understand, circumsized dicks are also prone to forming calluses because there is no foreskin protecting the head over the years - which could lead to loss in sensitivity for the guy.
How is it harder? There is absolutely no difference to the woman.
Circumcision is a more or less medically neutral procedure (not enough evidence either way, due to good hygiene, unless you're a hobo and you don't shower).
HOWEVER, it is really really really painful.
Why would you want to inflict pain on anyone, especially your own flesh and blood?
On November 29 2010 19:31 PrideNeverDie wrote: no women will ever make fun of you for having a circumsized penis, but you can have some chick laugh at your uncircumsized one.
tbh idk why they would make fun of u. technically a teen would never have seen a penis before they are the age of 18. so making fun of it would be pretty pointless since they wouldn't know the difference between a circumcised or uncircumcised penis as they wouldnt know what a "normal" penis looks like.
this is all assuming the girl never seen a penis before the age of 18 tho. however with the access of the internet and porn ppls idea of a "normal" penis comes from that. most porn is of men with circumcised penises.
so for them to have laughed at you as if they know what a real penis looks like must mean they look at a lot of porn.
that last part was a joke but u get the idea. a girl laughing at you for a uncircumcised penis would only show how immature and ignorant they are.
On November 29 2010 18:27 Ballistixz wrote: idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
First of all, noone said you wouldn't feel anything at all being circucised. Of course you still feel plenty of pleasure, the point is you would feel more had you not had this "extra skin" removed.
Second of all, your argument is that apparently it doesn't make a difference. The problem is that you're wrong, because if nothing else sex will forever be less pleasurable. Furthermore as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there's no reversal. Once it's done it's done.
On November 29 2010 19:39 Zidane wrote: It's harder for a chick to give you a bj if you're uncircumsized. But from what I understand, circumsized dicks are also prone to forming calluses because there is no foreskin protecting the head over the years - which could lead to loss in sensitivity for the guy.
It already did, by having nerves removed in the first place.
As a bonus for all those people who think the word mutilate is being used as a shockword; mu·ti·late (mytl-t) tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates 1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple. 2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1. 3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.
It's the definition of what circucision is. There's also way too much general assumptions and falsehood flying around this thread with no sources what so ever to back up the claims. Please tell me why in the world STDs/STIs would be prevented or reduced by removing the foreskin? And by "tell me" I mean both logically and provide a survey or, more appropriately, a study.
You guys need to realize that there's a lot of misinformation and propaganda flying around for the pro-circumcision side especially. Be it for religious, traditional or "medical" reasons. Just grabbing random statements you've read somewhere sometime written by someone doesn't make it true nor a good argument to jab with.
On November 29 2010 18:27 Ballistixz wrote: idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
First of all, noone said you wouldn't feel anything at all being circucised. Of course you still feel plenty of pleasure, the point is you would feel more had you not had this "extra skin" removed.
Second of all, your argument is that apparently it doesn't make a difference. The problem is that you're wrong, because if nothing else sex will forever be less pleasurable. Furthermore as has been pointed out several times in this thread, there's no reversal. Once it's done it's done.
so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer.
idk about you, but i have PLENTY of pleasure despite that belief of pleasure being lost from uncircumcised penises... so that is false.
and 2ndly whats being "chopped off" is basically extra skin that technically isnt even needed in this day and age. so no its not "bad".
also, rather or not you want to beleive it but a child is a child. when a child is born they can not make decisions on there own. they can not do anything without the parents guidance. a parent shouldnt just "wait till there 18" in order for a decision to be made with there child. a decision that in no way harms them at all.
its the parents decision to decide what they want for the child and what they think is best for the child. they gave the child life after all and they are ones taking care of it, not some outside source that will ban something because of there own skewed views.
but thats just another great example of "social control". people think something is "bad" and try to prevent it from happening even tho in all reality its not bad at all. while at the same time ppl will have something done cuz they think its good when in all reality its not.
your view is that its bad. so tell me what harm comes from it? for me i am neutral on the matter and i believe it does not matter if u are circumsized or not in this country and its totally the decision of the parents. but i really want to know why you think its "bad" other then its "something on your body being chopped off". after all, thats not the only thing on a child body that is chopped off after birth...
Circumcision is a process that can't be undone, right? So then there's two alternatives:
- be selfish and do not let your child have any say at all and chop his foreskin off, he can't change this decision later in life or - wait till he's older and let him decide himself whether or not he wants to circumcise himself.
I prefer the latter.
I'm guessing you were not circumcised at an old age...
On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like.
i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies. that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we)
On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like.
i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies. that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we)
On November 29 2010 20:21 Ballistixz wrote: so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer.
Where did this discussion about parental hatred come from? Concidering you're brining it up it's becoming quite clear to me at least that at some level you obviously do have some issues with this whole business, be it because you're wondering about the what-ifs or something else.
Either way, this thread nor the issue at hand is about resentment against parents by their children who disapprove of having had a circumcision done to them. It's about the fact that it should be the child's choice in the first place and whether this should be put in to law or not.
About sensation loss, among other things. This page also brings up that boys actually die from circumcisions. Keep in mind that it's a rarity when done by legitimate and certified doctors or religious leaders as they know what they're doing. Fun fact none the less.
Anyway, back to you. You say that it's already done so you shouldn't ponder over it because you can't reverse it. Great, you're fucked and even better you accept it and you don't suffer from it. Two things though that you seem to not have concidered. There's obviously people who disapprove of having been robbed their foreskin. So although you don't mind a lot of others do and can't do anything about it. Secondly, just because it happened to you and it's too late for you doesn't mean it's too late for others, does it?
Edit: I really do recommend the link I posted. It has sources to all its claims and all kinds of crazy unlike the general statements made in this thread. (Not aimed at you Ballistixz).
Mind numbing that this is so accepted in the US and other countries, another case of indoctrination. Get them kids before they can speak for themselves. And in this case it's even a form of branding.
To people defending this, how do you feel about places where they mutilate womens private parts? This is ok because it is backed by your religion?
On November 29 2010 20:02 HellRoxYa wrote: Please tell me why in the world STDs/STIs would be prevented or reduced by removing the foreskin? And by "tell me" I mean both logically and provide a survey or, more appropriately, a study.
On November 29 2010 17:37 Kakera wrote:Getting your dick chopped to pieces kills like 75% of your dick's pleasure nerves. 75%!!! We barely feel anything during sex now, all because your parents decided this is way to be cool and fit into society's little view of how our junk should look like.
i can testify to this and swore under oath. your dick just fkin dies. that also leads to a need to compensate it through other means. (its just a basic brain function; like blind ppl develop better hearing or /we)
On November 29 2010 20:21 Ballistixz wrote: so if we are going to base this on sex exactly how much pleasure do you think is lost between having it circumcised or not? do you know the difference between the two? because to be perfectly honest the pleasure i feel is great. i have absolutely no regrets about my circumcision. i also dont despise my mom for doing it. are you really going to look at your parents with a straight face, the ones that were loving and caring for you for years and years, and get pissed off at them because of a circumcision? even tho some people have no clue to what a circumcision even is untill later stages in there life?
no its not reversible, but how are you going to condemn the parents for having it down? i know my mom has taken care of me and loves me more then anything in the world and has never done anything to hurt me even tho she gets on my nerves like hell. so why the fuck do i care if she made the decision to circumcise me? why would i have any kind of anger towards something that happened 21 years ago and had no negative impact on my life?
and lets say i did not like the fact that i was circumcised. what negative impact has it had in my life after 21 years of living on this earth? none what so ever. so what would i do? let it go because like i said, she was the person that has taken care of me all my life and im not going to condem her for something like that.
so again i am going to ask my main point question. why is it such a big deal that people will go to the lengths of banning it? less pleasure in sex? sorry, but i cant take that as a legit answer.
Where did this discussion about parental hatred come from? Concidering you're brining it up it's becoming quite clear to me at least that at some level you obviously do have some issues with this whole business, be it because you're wondering about the what-ifs or something else.
Either way, this thread nor the issue at hand is about resentment against parents by their children who disapprove of having had a circumcision done to them. It's about the fact that it should be the child's choice in the first place and whether this should be put in to law or not.
About sensation loss, among other things. This page also brings up that boys actually die from circumcisions. Keep in mind that it's a rarity when done by legitimate and certified doctors or religious leaders as they know what they're doing. Fun fact none the less.
Anyway, back to you. You say that it's already done so you shouldn't ponder over it because you can't reverse it. Great, you're fucked and even better you accept it and you don't suffer from it. Two things though that you seem to not have concidered. There's obviously people who disapprove of having been robbed their foreskin. So although you don't mind a lot of others do and can't do anything about it. Secondly, just because it happened to you and it's too late for you doesn't mean it's too late for others, does it?
Edit: I really do recommend the link I posted. It has sources to all its claims and all kinds of crazy unlike the general statements made in this thread. (Not aimed at you Ballistixz).
huh? i have no issues with the procedure itself at all. and no, i have never once in my life wondered what it was liked to have a uncircumcised penis. as i have constantly said i have no problem with it at all. i have great sex and great orgasms so there is no problem in that department either.
my main beef is the severity ppl are escalating this whole situation to. i know very well people disapprove of having there foreskin taken, and like you said it can never be undone. but you know what you can do instead? not have the procedure done to your own kids. if you believe they should have the choice then give them that choice. like i said in my very first post in this thread, its entirely the decision of the parent.
there is no reasons to go to such extremes as to banning it and protesting against it. if you feel that strongly about it then dont have it done to your child. i never once in this thread approved or disapproved of circumcision. I have been neutral on the entire thing.
i just do not understand why people think its torture/mutilation of the child.
It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
I mean just because it's socially accepted doesn't make it any less extreme than removing toenails or earlobes. Yet I imagine you'd get locked up pretty darn quick for lopping the earlobes off your newborn... why is a part of their penis treated with such less concern?
On November 29 2010 20:55 HellRoxYa wrote: And that's the point of this law, to give them that choice.
ya... forcing it on society because of different views. fuck everyone that does want there child circumcised because of religious beliefs or other beliefs right?
with this law you are taking away someones choice and decision with there child so they can have the decision made when they are an adult themselves. idk about you, but if i did not want my child circumcised then i would not have him circumcised. i do not need a law to force that on me just in case i even thought about it differently.
but who cares right? your view is that its wrong and therefore you will punish everyone that thinks otherwise. thats exactly what that law is doing after all.
On November 29 2010 21:03 Almania wrote: It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
I mean just because it's socially accepted doesn't make it any less extreme than removing toenails or earlobes. Yet I imagine you'd get locked up pretty darn quick for lopping the earlobes off your newborn... why is a part of their penis treated with such less concern?
On November 29 2010 20:43 TALegion wrote: Regardless of how Atheist you are, circumcisions help with keeping your junk clean....
and water does what?
what you said its only half true anyway because you dick continues to secreet smegma even after circumcision (to a lesser extent) but it just gets "wiped" by your underwear.
On November 29 2010 20:59 w_Ender_w wrote: Unless there is some shockingly sensible reason to ban something, I'm pretty much opposed to anything being banned.
I think this:
On November 29 2010 21:03 Almania wrote: It's a form of extreme body modification that the children have no say over. Let a fully consenting adult get it any day he wants, but don't perform it on a newborn baby.
is a shockingly sensible reason.
On November 29 2010 21:04 Ballistixz wrote: ya... forcing it on society because of different views. fuck everyone that does want there child circumcised because of religious beliefs or other beliefs right?
To be honest, yes, that's exactly how I feel. But then I never really liked religion to begin with. If you're going to use religion as an argument then there's all kinds of things you could exempt it from, even up to the extremes of murder. That's a bit of another discussion though.
On November 29 2010 21:04 Ballistixz wrote: with this law you are taking away someones choice and decision with there child so they can have the decision made when they are an adult themselves. idk about you, but if i did not want my child circumcised then i would not have him circumcised. i do not need a law to force that on me just in case i even thought about it differently.
but who cares right? your view is that its wrong and therefore you will punish everyone that thinks otherwise. thats exactly what that law is doing after all.
I care a lot. In general I have very liberal views. However, circumcision is quite a big deal in my eyes and the person having it done has no say at all in it, and never will. Unlike the decision to feed your child macaronies or rice this decision has much more long lasting effects and should, to me, always be up to the person himself. I'm not sure legislation is the right way to go in the long run, but if it gets the debate in the U.S. going then it's more than a good thing. It can always be overturned in the future.
On November 29 2010 14:56 Slow Motion wrote: If there is no memory of pain and no subconscious trauma from it (I'm assuming this, but really have no idea) then what does the fact that the pain did occur matter?
This is the most hilarious thing said in this thread, and I'll show you why. "So I hit my child when he/she was a baby a few times. There was no lasting injuries or anything, just a bit of pain. My child doesn't remember a thing so what does it matter?" Yeah, man, child abuse is alright as long as they don't remember it.
Parents shouldn't have any right of decisionmaking about modifying my body, thank you very much. I don't want a piercing, no tattoo and no circumcision just because they felt like it. I'd like to make my own choices.
Apart fromt that; I'm uncircumcised and got 2 good stories about it;
First of all; my foreskin was a little, just a little too tight. Nothing medically wrong there, I could still pull it down and clean all the edges and stuff, but apparantly when I had intercourse to hard, it could rip a little. And it did, with my first GF, we were having fun, and suddenly blood came out. After a few moments wondering why, because she didn´t have her period yet, we realized that it came from me. The, I don´t know if it´s translated this way, but I´m at work and can´t just look it up with all of the pictures I´ll probably see then, but the bridle (The connection between the foreskin and the front of my penis) ripped. It did hurt, and couldn´t have sex for a few days, but it healed perfectly. And I´m still glad I wasn´t circumsized, wouldn´t want that for any money in the world.
Secondly+ about the posters who say that girls don´t like uncircumsized penisses etc. My current gf never paid attention at school and henceforth didn´t know the difference. Her ex/boyfriend was circumsized and thus she was kinda baffled when she saw mine for the first time. However, after getting accustomed to it, she actually prefers this, because it´s funnier to play with.
So, in short:
1. Children should have the choice to decide wether or not removing parts of their body. 2. There is no medical benefit from removing the foreskin (as long as you bathe every (few) day(s) and pull the foreskin back. 3. The foreskin doesn´t protect you against STDs (who made that up) 4. Girl´s that don´t do people with foreskins are either misinformed or don´t like it the way they might not like a haircolor.
Also
my main beef is the severity ppl are escalating this whole situation to. i know very well people disapprove of having there foreskin taken, and like you said it can never be undone. but you know what you can do instead? not have the procedure done to your own kids.
That doesn´t help you or the children of parent´s that might just choose to do it because of their religion (just like women´s circumcision, we don´t approve of that do we) or becuase they´re terribly misinformed about STDs etc.
EDIT Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
Clerics in mainly Shiite Iran forbid it as well, saying the practice is un-Islamic because it harms the body.
EDIT 3 I´m on a roll here, my apologies for my punctuation, I´m at work and the keyboard doesn´t have American settings, and I can´t find the proper symbols T.T
i admit i probably shouldnt have used religion as a legit example but my point still remains the same.i speak from my own experience with my circumcised penis. i have never had any problems as a direct result of circumcision. none of my friends have had a problem with it and none of my friends friends had a problem with it.
i do understand that some ppl do not like having it removed but its not a big deal if it is removed. no medical problems arise from it and the ones that do is extremely rare.
the pleasure during sex is questionable. i do know a friend that has recently had a circumcision to his uncircumcised penis a few years back so i would have to ask him what the difference is during sex. but i do know one thing, the difference isnt as high as 75% and w/e the hell XmZ said. your dick does not "just fkin die"
On November 29 2010 21:40 Ballistixz wrote: the pleasure during sex is questionable. i do know a friend that has recently had a circumcision to his uncircumcised penis a few years back so i would have to ask him what the difference is during sex. but i do know one thing, the difference isnt as high as 75% and w/e the hell XmZ said. your dick does not "just fkin die"
Of course not, he even admitted to grabbing that number out of the air. I'd also like to point out that you and your friends aren't a reasonable test group. Just because noone you know has had a problem doesn't mean that noone does.
On November 29 2010 21:40 Ballistixz wrote: the pleasure during sex is questionable. i do know a friend that has recently had a circumcision to his uncircumcised penis a few years back so i would have to ask him what the difference is during sex. but i do know one thing, the difference isnt as high as 75% and w/e the hell XmZ said. your dick does not "just fkin die"
Of course not, he even admitted to grabbing that number out of the air. I'd also like to point out that you and your friends aren't a reasonable test group. Just because noone you know has had a problem doesn't mean that noone does.
i never said we was lol. i said i was speaking from my own experiences and i also just threw them in th ere aswell. i even went on to imply that medical problems to arise from it even tho its rare. but the same can be said for any surgical procedure. even something as simple as removing a ingrown toenail.
but with circumcision you would have to be a pretty incompetent doctor for something to go wrong. which is why its rare.
The thing is though, there is a fatality rate. There's also the ominous sounding "complication" rate, where complications can include sudden loss of penis.
But yes, these rates are extremely low. Probably not much higher than as you say, dieing due to an operation on an ingrown toenail. But the thing is - this operation is the most common surgical procedure in the world (I believe). Even if only 1 in 10,000 have a complication - that's how many children a year?
I don't really think it matters one way or the other tbh. Although it does seem to create unnecessary suffering for the child, can't be very comfortable.
I had an issue with my foreskin that I wouldn't have had if I'd been circumcised at birth though, so there is maybe less risk of complications (I know doctors say there aren't any complications it prevents, but in my experience sometimes there are)
On November 29 2010 21:57 Almania wrote: The thing is though, there is a fatality rate. There's also the ominous sounding "complication" rate, where complications can include sudden loss of penis.
But yes, these rates are extremely low. Probably not much higher than as you say, dieing due to an operation on an ingrown toenail. But the thing is - this operation is the most common surgical procedure in the world (I believe). Even if only 1 in 10,000 have a complication - that's how many children a year?
but what about complications with keeping that foreskin have aswelll? complications that can sometimes result in great pain for the child for many years without the parent ever knowing the cause. while also being rare it still happens.
There is actually a very convincing argument that backs up the medical reasons for circumcision.
Wiswell looked at the complication rates of having or not having circumcision performed in a study of 136,000 boys born in US army hospitals between 1980 and 1985. 100,000 were circumcised and 193 (0.19%) had complications, mostly minor, with no deaths, but of the 36,000 who were not circumcised the problems were more than ten-times higher and there were 2 deaths [Wiswell & Hachey, 1993].
Problems involving the penis are encountered relatively frequently in pediatric practice [Langer & Coplen, 1998]. A retrospective study of boys aged 4 months to 12 years found uncircumcised boys exhibited significantly greater frequency of penile problems (14% vs 6%; P < 0.001) and medical visits for penile problems (10% vs 5%; P < 0.05) compared with those who were circumcised.
Morever It is very subjective but from my very personal aesthetic point of view, I think uncut penises are really gross. This is why you never see uncut elephant trunks on any of the porns.
On November 29 2010 22:25 1tym wrote: Morever It is very subjective but from my very personal aesthetic point of view, I think uncut penises are really gross. This is why you never see uncut elephant trunks on any of the porns.
No, you never see any uncut penises in porn because it's all american produced and there's a shortage of uncut american sausage last time I checked.
Edit: And that whole site is biased. So no, it's not very convincing at all.
Edit 2: My god, that site is both hilarious and sad. Right side, "Sex and Circumcision, what every woman needs to know". Initial paragraph: Male circumcision is a simple surgical procedure that removes the foreskin – a sleeve of skin covering the tip of the penis. Women are at much lower risk of disease if their male partner is circumcised.
In fact the next paragraph might be even worse: By encouraging circumcision in lovers, brothers, friends or their own male offspring, women can help protect themselves, other women, and men. In western countries a mother has the legal right to authorize circumcision for her young son. Although infancy is the ideal time for a circumcision, many adult men and teens can be encouraged to seek circumcision for medical, health, sexual, cultural, religious or cosmetic reasons..
I stand by that this site is not reputeable in any way.
Edit 3: I need to put this in here as well, lmfao. In conclusion Circumcision of the male partner confers substantial sexual and medical benefits to a woman. A circumcised male reduces her risk of disease, suffering, medical treatment and premature death. If she is the care giver, as wife or mother, a woman will quite likely need to deal with problems in the uncircumcised male, 1 in 3 of whom develop a condition requiring medical attention at some time during their life. Like, really?
On November 29 2010 22:25 1tym wrote: Morever It is very subjective but from my very personal aesthetic point of view, I think uncut penises are really gross. This is why you never see uncut elephant trunks on any of the porns.
I believe you'll find it depends entirely on what you're used to. Most Euro porn to my knowledge is uncut, most american is cut, neither surprising given the rates in the respective countries. The few girls I've spoken to here in Aus where circumcision is less common prefer uncut, but I know the two of an older generation I've spoken to when it was more common prefer cut.
So yeh. I think it depends entirely on what the norm is for your location and generation, and I'm of the opinion that as the operation (despite the existance of "foreskin reconstruction surgery") is mostly one way, let the person make up their own mind about how they want their penis.
On November 29 2010 22:25 1tym wrote: Morever It is very subjective but from my very personal aesthetic point of view, I think uncut penises are really gross. This is why you never see uncut elephant trunks on any of the porns.
No, you never see any uncut penises in porn because it's all american produced and there's a shortage of uncut american sausage last time I checked.
It is true that America dominates the porn industry, but it is mainly the same case for other Asian and European adult films as well. (Namely Japan, where circumcision rate is no way as high)
On November 29 2010 22:36 1tym wrote: It is true that America dominates the porn industry, but it is mainly the same case for other Asian and European adult films as well. (Namely Japan, where circumcision rate is no way as high)
You're wrong. Out of the blurry Japan porn I've had the unfortune of coming across I'm quite sure you're wrong and you're definently wrong about EU porn.
Edit: Might be because it doesn't always look too different when erect. Everyone's penis is different.
I think that's it. Erect they often look quite similar so unless you're watching porn where the penis is the focus you're unlikely to tell the difference.
On November 29 2010 22:36 1tym wrote: It is true that America dominates the porn industry, but it is mainly the same case for other Asian and European adult films as well. (Namely Japan, where circumcision rate is no way as high)
You're wrong. Out of the blurry Japan porn I've had the unfortune of coming across I'm quite sure you're wrong and you're definently wrong about EU porn.
What amazes me is your ability to recognize the uncutness of the penis through the mosaic. In that case I have to succumb to your expertise. Thank you for correcting me Mr Flap to uncut penis master.
As someone who was never circumcised, this is atrocious.
Since it's impossible to breach this without being a little bit personal, my sex life has been pretty hellish because I was never circumcised. My biological father did not allow it to happen due to some pretty rampant anti-Semitism (stupidity and drug/alcohol addiction added with that certainly didn't help). My mother eventually left him due to his abusive nature, but not being circumcised has caused some huge problems for me. My foreskin is far too tight so I cannot enjoy regular intercourse because of it, not to mention some girls are just immediately put off by it (not that I can completely blame them).
This isn't to say I've been without experience but honestly, there was no reason for me to not be circumcised. It's an easy enough procedure early in life but I have yet to be able to get in done since. We've never been very comfortable financially and it costs a couple thousand dollars done to get the procedure done now.
I think parents should have the right to mutilate their son's penis in order to make it look pretty in all the porn that boy will do before the age of 17.
On November 29 2010 22:45 NorsePower wrote: Since it's impossible to breach this without being a little bit personal, my sex life has been pretty hellish because I was never circumcised.
Sorry to hear that Norse. But because of the problems you've experienced you think everyone should be circumcised at birth by default? Or only if they need to - because there'll obviously be provisions for those with medical reasons.
On November 29 2010 22:45 NorsePower wrote: My foreskin is far too tight so I cannot enjoy regular intercourse because of it, not to mention some girls are just immediately put off by it (not that I can completely blame them).
I do have to say that is a sad state of affairs, but I can see it being a valid argument against this law. Except for the fact that if the law were to pass, the whole generation of girls growing up with these boys would find circumcised penises to be the odd ones... so.. not sure I guess. I suppose it could then be argued that as some people do need to be circumcised for medical reasons, it should be made the norm just so they're not ostracized for it. -shrugs-
Circumcision to me is just some religious/traditional bullshit that somehow got backed up with a bit of science and health so now its just acceptable bullshit. The entire thing just sounds absurd to me. As soon as you are born into this world you don't have any control of your own body and everyone just starts imposing their bullshit onto you immediately and without hesitation. But...you gatta give people the choice to act on their bullshit so I guess its here to stay!
On November 29 2010 22:43 1tym wrote: What amazes me is your ability to recognize the uncutness of the penis through the mosaic. In that case I have to succumb to your expertise. Thank you for correcting me Mr Flap to uncut penis master.
Same to you.
How about the illegal variants, which I'm positive on instead? How about that?
Per merit of argument in reality - moronic idea and an insult to the concerned religious communities.
THEN AGAIN - in the spirit of "every state may have its own law regardless of how retarded it is" (specifically the death penalty) i suppose this isn't any worse!
On November 29 2010 22:45 NorsePower wrote: My foreskin is far too tight so I cannot enjoy regular intercourse because of it, not to mention some girls are just immediately put off by it (not that I can completely blame them).
You gatta stretch it ever so gently every time you masturbate. It will loosen up over time. It's ganna hurt a bit a first but it beats spending money on surgery.
On November 29 2010 22:47 Longshank wrote: I think parents should have the right to mutilate their son's penis in order to make it look pretty in all the porn that boy will do before the age of 17.
of all of the posts in this thread this one takes the cake of being the most pointless.
On November 29 2010 22:45 NorsePower wrote: My foreskin is far too tight so I cannot enjoy regular intercourse because of it, not to mention some girls are just immediately put off by it (not that I can completely blame them).
You gatta stretch it ever so gently every time you masturbate. It will loosen up over time. It's ganna hurt a bit a first but it beats spending money on surgery.
uh, thats not very good advice to solve a problem like that lol...
On November 29 2010 22:50 Almania wrote: Sorry to hear that Norse. But because of the problems you've experienced you think everyone should be circumcised at birth by default? Or only if they need to - because there'll obviously be provisions for those with medical reasons.
No no, just would prefer it stay the way it is now. I just happened to be screwed over by having deficient parents and (even moreso) deficient genetics.
On November 29 2010 22:50 Almania wrote:I do have to say that is a sad state of affairs, but I can see it being a valid argument against this law. Except for the fact that if the law were to pass, the whole generation of girls growing up with these boys would find circumcised penises to be the odd ones... so.. not sure I guess.
Well for me it's not the way that it looks as much as the fact that I can't really engage in normal sex. : /
On November 29 2010 22:54 ktp wrote: You gatta stretch it ever so gently every time you masturbate. It will loosen up over time. It's ganna hurt a bit a first but it beats spending money on surgery.
Trust me, I've tried every trick in the book since I became... let's say sexually aware. When I was really young I knew it looked different but I was pretty oblivious to the problems that it would pose later in life and my parents, again, weren't really on the ball. Maybe early in life that would have been doable but now it's not. I managed to go see a urologist last year and he said the only option was circumcision. Which I definitely can't afford, at least not now.
On November 29 2010 22:58 NorsePower wrote: Well for me it's not the way that it looks as much as the fact that I can't really engage in normal sex. : /
I also realise my stance comes from a country with a health system where if you need to be circumcised for medical reasons it isn't going to cost you thousands.. may be another reason why American's get it done at birth - cheaper to get it done then rather then when/if it's actually required.
But health system's are probably a topic best not touched..
On November 29 2010 23:01 Almania wrote: I also realise my stance comes from a country with a health system where if you need to be circumcised for medical reasons it isn't going to cost you thousands.. may be another reason why American's get it done at birth - cheaper to get it done then rather then when/if it's actually required.
On November 29 2010 21:16 venomium wrote: Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
What does that prove? The part you underlined says right after "this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision" which means it hurts the pro-circumcision side. The part you bolded doesn't show bias by the authors. That was written by the authors so if they were bias they would have just omitted it from their report instead of being honest about it.
Also nice editing there, here's the full paragraph with the part you left out in bold
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both. Nevertheless, these findings, in conjunction with data from observational studies20,21 and one trial in South Africa,31 demonstrate the efficacy of circumcision in decreasing the prevalence of HPV in adolescent boys and men.
This isn't the only study btw, there are lots similar to it. Here's a quote from wiki
The World Health Organization, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.
I find the HIV argument most odd. That's why you're circumcising your infant son?
And I have to say I don't think it can be all that or America wouldn't have 2-6 times the HIV rates compared to European countries / Australia / New Zealand where circumcision is less common. I realise there's obviously more factors at play.. just saying there's no correlation showing up in any statistics I can find.
Is it bad that anytime I read a thread about circumcision on this site (that happens a lot for some reason...) that my first reactions are 'lol coagulation' and 'hahahaha anteater dicks'???
I fucking associate circumcision with the dick of an internet dude I never met. There's so many levels of wrong with that.
On November 29 2010 22:54 ktp wrote: You gatta stretch it ever so gently every time you masturbate. It will loosen up over time. It's ganna hurt a bit a first but it beats spending money on surgery.
Trust me, I've tried every trick in the book since I became... let's say sexually aware. When I was really young I knew it looked different but I was pretty oblivious to the problems that it would pose later in life and my parents, again, weren't really on the ball. Maybe early in life that would have been doable but now it's not. I managed to go see a urologist last year and he said the only option was circumcision. Which I definitely can't afford, at least not now.
its suppose to break and ur suppose to bleed then it becomes "normal". someone said it few pages back. it the so called 'male virginity'.
also, the studies means nothing if you dont know HOW they got to those conclusions. i would really want someone to explain me, practically, why "... state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex" is true?. or, better put it: the mechanics of it cuz as far as o know you can contact hiv trough an open wound or getting in contact with sexual fluids.
ex: anal sex tends to favor the spreading of HIV but ONLY because anal tears and hemorrhoidic bleeds occur, thus one gets exposed to infected blood more often.
On November 29 2010 21:16 venomium wrote: Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
What does that prove? The part you underlined says right after "this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision" which means it hurts the pro-circumcision side. The part you bolded doesn't show bias by the authors. That was written by the authors so if they were bias they would have just omitted it from their report instead of being honest about it.
Also nice editing there, here's the full paragraph with the part you left out in bold
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both. Nevertheless, these findings, in conjunction with data from observational studies20,21 and one trial in South Africa,31 demonstrate the efficacy of circumcision in decreasing the prevalence of HPV in adolescent boys and men.
This isn't the only study btw, there are lots similar to it. Here's a quote from wiki
The World Health Organization, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.
I don't understand what you are attempting to achieve with these posts. Circumcision reduces the risks of unprotected sex with HIV-positive people so children should all be circumcised? Are we expecting minors in California to be having rampant unprotected sex with infected African villagers here? Or maybe you're saying circumcision is the only way to reduce the risks of already risky sex with people who are diseased. No wait, that's not true either.
Please clarify how the point you're attempting to make is relevant to a ban on circumcision of minors. These studies you linked, while they provide some interesting medical data, don't really seem relevant to the discussion to me.
meanwhile, the government does nothing to regulate rampant governmental over spending, corrupt businesses, rising inflation and unemployment, inner city crime and poverty or any of the hundreds of IMPORTANT things that a government should spend its fracking time on.
Nope, too busy getting my name in the paper for when I run for mayor, governator, etc.
-You don't have to clean it! That is a valid argument in Africa. I shower everyday and it takes about 5 seconds to clean my penis. I wouldn't want to mutilate my penis and severely reduce the pleasure I get for sex because I'm lazy. You wouldn't cut off your eyelids because you can't be bothered to clean your eyes out in the morning?
-It reduces the risk of HIV! Dear God. Use fucking condoms if you're going to have sex with strangers. There's like 15 people in Iceland with AIDS, I don't need to mutilate my penis to lower the chances of catching AIDS. The majority of people with AIDS are prostitutes. Though it is more common for homosexuals and negros. Just use condoms and you'll be safe.
Some men are unfortunate enough to have phimosis but that's a relatively small percentage of the whole population. Circumcision on children shouldn't be banned but I don't think that it should be encouraged. It's a Jewish ritual, it has nothing to do with Western culture. I'm not an all-banning-freedom-hating Socialist so I'm going to say no to this one. This is an outright attack on Jewish way of life. If parents want to take uninformed decisions, like mutilating their child's penis, then they should be allowed to do so. It doesn't bother me.
Circumcision pros: Some girls might care about how it looks You might have a slightly lower risk of std/infection You might get to go to heaven by accepting a religious pact through slicing your dick No foreskin means you lose sensitivity, less sensitivity means you last longer
Non circumcision pros: If a girl cares that much about how it looks shes probably not worth it. Alert to find yourself a better girl. If you use condoms/wash it you're going to be as clean a circumcised dude If you want to get circumcised when you're older you can do it whenever you want No potential for scarring and having a botched penis Foreskin means more sensitivity, means sex feels better.
IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
If you were circumcised as a baby and you regret what your parents did, get over it. your dick still works like a champion and looks even better. Banning this entirely is just retarded, especially without any empirical evidence or any reason. What's the reason? Free will? Like any of us have free will anyway, why don't we ban social classes or your ethnicity while we're at it?
So what your missing some of your dick, there is nothing to complain about. This alone warrants this a retarded ban. When they banned toys in kids happy meals, that actually made sense because it was a harmful practice to society. Meanwhile this just makes your dick look awesome. A lot of people in the thread focus on whether or not having your penis cut slightly is cool or not, but I'm pretty sure the main thing to be discussed here is whether or not the states should determine how their citizen's dicks look. Because so far from what I've read there seems to be no clear advantage or disadvantage thus making this a cosmetic issue. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with this banning, just that given the global affairs atm I'm not sure we should have political powers devoting their time to cosmetic dick issues.
On November 30 2010 03:31 drewcifer wrote: If you were circumcised as a baby and you regret what your parents did, get over it. your dick still works like a champion and looks even better. Banning this entirely is just retarded, especially without any empirical evidence or any reason. What's the reason? Free will? Like any of us have free will anyway, why don't we ban social classes or your ethnicity while we're at it?
So what your missing some of your dick, there is nothing to complain about. This alone warrants this a retarded ban. When they banned toys in kids happy meals, that actually made sense because it was a harmful practice to society. Meanwhile this just makes your dick look awesome. A lot of people in the thread focus on whether or not having your penis cut slightly is cool or not, but I'm pretty sure the main thing to be discussed here is whether or not the states should determine how their citizen's dicks look. Because so far from what I've read there seems to be no clear advantage or disadvantage thus making this a cosmetic issue. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with this banning, just that given the global affairs atm I'm not sure we should have political powers devoting their time to cosmetic dick issues.
It's not a cosmetic issue when it comes to sexual functioning, please read the post directly above yours before you spout nonsense.
On November 30 2010 03:31 drewcifer wrote: A lot of people in the thread focus on whether or not having your penis cut slightly is cool or not, but I'm pretty sure the main thing to be discussed here is whether or not the states should determine how their citizen's dicks look. Because so far from what I've read there seems to be no clear advantage or disadvantage thus making this a cosmetic issue.
Quite right, but in my opinion banning cosmetic surgery on infants isn't outrageous.
Slight edit: There should be an age beyond which the kid can make the choice himself, but yeah. Babies. And complications from surgery.
On November 30 2010 03:31 drewcifer wrote: If you were circumcised as a baby and you regret what your parents did, get over it. your dick still works like a champion and looks even better. Banning this entirely is just retarded, especially without any empirical evidence or any reason. What's the reason? Free will? Like any of us have free will anyway, why don't we ban social classes or your ethnicity while we're at it?
So what your missing some of your dick, there is nothing to complain about. This alone warrants this a retarded ban. When they banned toys in kids happy meals, that actually made sense because it was a harmful practice to society. Meanwhile this just makes your dick look awesome. A lot of people in the thread focus on whether or not having your penis cut slightly is cool or not, but I'm pretty sure the main thing to be discussed here is whether or not the states should determine how their citizen's dicks look. Because so far from what I've read there seems to be no clear advantage or disadvantage thus making this a cosmetic issue. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with this banning, just that given the global affairs atm I'm not sure we should have political powers devoting their time to cosmetic dick issues.
It's not a cosmetic issue when it comes to sexual functioning, please read the post directly above yours before you spout nonsense.
So the reason we have elected politicians pushing their power to get this banned is because they are worried that circumcised people are not receiving enough pleasure from sex? Like I said in the post that you just quoted me from...the context of global affairs make this a laughable exercise of politics. I got more important things to worry about then if Fred's dick makes him feel better when hes inside a woman or man. My unnerved circumcised dick truly is just sufficient enough to make me cum massive loads just in case you were wondering, because it seems that it is the main argue point for this ban.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
I think in western cultures its totally irrational to for the fact that it is unnatural, and we do so for cleanliness purposes, it seems utterly ridiculous that they think I will be too stupid to clean my own prick. Although I suppose I am happy that my dick didnt hurt as much as a kid as it shouldve when i slammed the urethra shut by jamming it against an unforgiving object, the amount of times i would have made up for that by enjoying lovemaking more an astounding ten times more. Ridiculous that i had no choice in such a life altering choice. Im sure all the rich (non jewish) men still have their dick skin, thats probably what gives them the drive to continue on with life in such a dominant manner.
On November 30 2010 03:50 Holcan wrote: I'm sure all the rich (non jewish) men still have their dick skin, thats probably what gives them the drive to continue on with life in such a dominant manner.
LOL
I can say with absolute certainty that I'm a beta male, so maybe you're right. Maybe if I had my foreskin I could have been an alpha male, stomping on my business competitors while crushing beer cans on my head and howling at the moon.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
The fun thing here is that the people who don't have a foreskin can't really grow one back so I can see why they wouldn't argue against their own penis. Meanwhile the uncut people can easily choose what to do with their own penis, even go as far as to use some tape to live the glamorous porn star life of a cut male whenever they choose. Neat!
1000th post ladies and gentlemen, use your pecker with caution.
What if I told you my dick was like the daredevil and when it lost apparently 70% nerve endings in my skin it compensated for the loss and made my dick head super sensitive. You guys have no idea what you are missing, this should be enforced.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
No, you are being deprived and we cannot possibly allow this to go on. The only way to deal with this is by mass banning with a fine. There is absolutely no other way to deal with this and usually we like to ban things that are inferior to others even when both function properly. Oh wait this could be a bad idea. We're saving the sex life of our future.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
It's not a philosophical question, it's a medical question. And it's not subjective. Saying you're okay with the function provided by your circumcised penis and saying you don't miss any of the function lost due to circumcision are two very different things, so pick your statements carefully.
What if the last two fingers on each hand were removed at birth? You would still have practical function of your hand in many cases. Since you never knew what you lost, you might be "happy" with the function of your hand. But a degree of function has been lost, that's a fact. That's my question. Not "are you happy with the feeling?", but "how do you know the exact degree of function lost?"
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
It's not a philosophical question, it's a medical question. And it's not subjective. Saying you're okay with the function provided by your circumcised penis and saying you don't miss any of the function lost due to circumcision are two very different things, so pick your statements carefully.
What if the last two fingers on each hand were removed at birth? You would still have practical function of your hand in many cases. Since you never knew what you lost, you might be "happy" with the function of your hand. But a degree of function has been lost, that's a fact. That's my question. Not "are you happy with the feeling?", but "how do you know the exact degree of function lost?"
What else do you use your dick for besides fun? Pretty sure I'd miss my fingers a whole lot more than the skin I'm missing from my dick.
On November 30 2010 04:14 drewcifer wrote: What else do you use your dick for besides fun? Pretty sure I'd miss my fingers a whole lot more than the skin I'm missing from my dick.
You're only qualified to make this statement because you've actually used those fingers. If they were removed from birth, who knows what kind of adaptation you could have pulled off to retain function? That's entirely my point, that making a statement like "I don't miss any of it" is ridiculous unless you had it done as an adult.
I can see though that judging by the rampant nonconstructive straw man quips you've littered all over this thread you're not really the contributing kind of guy who would grasp a point like that, so don't bother to respond, I'll just leave you to it.
On November 30 2010 04:14 drewcifer wrote: What else do you use your dick for besides fun? Pretty sure I'd miss my fingers a whole lot more than the skin I'm missing from my dick.
You're only qualified to make this statement because you've actually used those fingers. If they were removed from birth, who knows what kind of adaptation you could have pulled off to retain function? That's entirely my point, that making a statement like "I don't miss any of it" is ridiculous unless you had it done as an adult.
I can see though that judging by the rampant nonconstructive straw man quips you've littered all over this thread you're not really the contributing kind of guy who would grasp a point like that, so don't bother to respond, I'll just leave you to it.
Um no? Are you really saying If I was born without fingers I wouldn't envy other people with fingers? I've been using my fingers and watched others use theirs nearly every minute of my life. They have practical uses. Whereas a dick has only one use and we rarely ever use it for that. It's just for fun baby, who cares if your fun is funner than mine? I'm telling you with a str8 face that my dick has awesome cumshots...Are you happier to hear this? I mean you seem to favor a political proposal that is very interested in how awesome my cumshots are.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
ive seen those guys before and frankly they are FULL of crap. trusting a video like that is like trusting a guy quoting directly from Wikipedia for a serious source of information.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
you also have no idea on the pleasure of a circumcised penis feels like so you have no right or place to judge that either.......
the loss of pleasure is not as great as most people seem to believe it is. i would also like to add that my dick is pretty damn sensitive despite me being circumcised. and the height of that sensitivity is increased a thousand fold when a nice warm women touches it. so yes, the pleasure for me is very satisfying. but with you being uncircumcised you would have no idea on the difference. so what gives you the right to judge and denying other ppl to judge the vice versa? that goes beyond being biased imo.
and its REALLY getting evident of the quacks in this thread. comparing circumcision to the loss of limbs? are you people serious?
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
It's not a philosophical question, it's a medical question. And it's not subjective. Saying you're okay with the function provided by your circumcised penis and saying you don't miss any of the function lost due to circumcision are two very different things, so pick your statements carefully.
It's not important if I don't know exactly how I would feel. What matters if I am happy with the way I am or not. I also don't know how it would feel if another man stuck his penis inside my butt. And I do have the option to try it if I wanted to. But I'm so happy without it that I don't feel like I should try it. Because I'm just fine without it.
On November 30 2010 01:58 johanngrunt wrote: You are (hopefully) against female circumcision, why do you support male circumcision?
i dont know if that was aimed at me but i never suported circumcision and i have nothing against a grown man that does it but the more interesting point here is women circumcision (ppl mistakenly confuse the term with mutilation).
woman circumcision = cuting off her inner labia to some extent (some opt for a full removal) woman mutilation = varies in degree, but it can include clitoris removal, full labia removal (outer and inner), vagina opening sown (after which a hole is drilled to allow pee and other stuff to come out).
grown women choose to be circumcised most of the times for pure "cosmetic" reasons. no one (civilised) is circumcising girls after their birth.
I got circumcised at age of 20 (medical issue), so experienced sex before (at before i mean before my penis went wrong:D) and after it. I felt no difference. Its a hard decision, its like baptism (sligthly different tho), how can a parent decide what is my religion and so. Some countries take religion seriously, in some cases u cant go to a country with this and that religion. Religion got pros and contras too (but different ones ofcourse). So ban baptism and other religious things at birth too. imho.
On November 30 2010 03:23 VIB wrote: IMHO all you guys saying you don't want your penis "mutilated" are all just a bunch of drama queens
The benefits might be small but the drawbacks are ridiculously insignificant. There might not be too many people who would contract diseases because they don't wash up. But they are certainly much more than the amount of people who got their penis accidentally cut off, or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old.
You could not be more wrong about this subject. The draw backs are extremely significant.
Let's play the compare game.
Female genitals ~ 8,000 nerve endings
Penis with no foreskin ~ 4,000 nerve endings
Penis WITH foreskin ~ 40,000 nerve endings
That's an EXTREME difference.
"or the amount of people who feel traumatized today because they got cruelty mutilated when they were 1 minute old."
You make it seem like its nothing at all, have you seen a circumcision video? I'm going to throw a wild guess out there and say "no".
Here's a free nice video (not sure if its been posted yet) on the subject.
What difference does any of that makes in my life today? I've seen the video, I still don't remember when it happened to me. I'm not traumatized. I've seen the numbers about my nerve endings and I still have a lot of fun with my penis. I'm not missing any of it.
"I'm not missing any of it". Could you please clarify this statement?
How could you not be missing any of it if you don't know what you're missing? I don't understand this reasoning. I mean, obviously no one is saying circumcision leads to complete loss of function, but it does lead to a loss of a degree of function, and the procedure is done so early so as you never know the exact degree lost. If you had it done as an adult, and remember very clearly the sensation before and after the procedure, then you might be qualified to say something like that.
So now it's a philosophical question of how we label each feeling? That's subjective, it doesn't matter. I'm not traumatized. I'm happy. That's what matters.
It's not a philosophical question, it's a medical question. And it's not subjective. Saying you're okay with the function provided by your circumcised penis and saying you don't miss any of the function lost due to circumcision are two very different things, so pick your statements carefully.
It's not important if I don't know exactly how I would feel. What matters if I am happy with the way I am or not. I also don't know how it would feel if another man stuck his penis inside my butt. And I do have the option to try it if I wanted to. But I'm so happy without it that I don't feel like I should try it. Because I'm just fine without it.
Many of the old religious customs were done as part of a health system. Jews are usually known as the group that circumcised, which is probably the healthy thing to do in a dirtier time thousands of years ago. They also do not eat pork, which was straight up unsanitary back then and was making a lot of folks sick.
Medical aspects of the Jewish faith may be outdated, but keep an open mind on where they come from and the good it has done in the past.
On November 30 2010 05:09 Breach_hu wrote: I got circumcised at age of 20 (medical issue), so experienced sex before and after it. I felt no difference.
this is also what my friend told me when i asked him earlier this morning. He also experience both sides of the picture when he got a circumcision a few years back. i never thought about asking him such a question till now, (cuz after all, what dude asks another dude about there dick?) but he said at first it did feel a bit "wierd" but as the months went by he didnt feel much of a difference and his orgasms were of the same intensity.
Yes, circumcising infants should most definitely be forbidden.
There are medical reasons both pro and con but it's an irreversible procedure and therefor it shouldn't be done before the person can make a decision themselves.
On November 30 2010 05:09 Breach_hu wrote: I got circumcised at age of 20 (medical issue), so experienced sex before and after it. I felt no difference.
this is also what my friend told me when i asked him earlier this morning. He also experience both sides of the picture when he got a circumcision a few years back. i never thought about asking him such a question till now, (cuz after all, what dude asks another dude about there dick?) but he said at first it did feel a bit "wierd" but as the months went by he didnt feel much of a difference and his orgasms were of the same intensity.
so there you have it.
I think the argument behind the whole make your dick feel better thing is that if you are uncircumcised your dick head will come in contact with less things on accident or w/e in general thus making your dick head more sensitive when it's time to get it sucked on or jam it into a woman's body (I think I'm being descriptive here to help illustrate how retarded this proposal is). I could still see that being true by a small margin.
If it is the case, neither of the subjects would be able to tell the difference because they were already protected by the skin for most of their life.
But yet again the question I'm dying to have answered is... How does this justify political intervention in an era of lack of political intervention for issues that really matter? Isn't cali in a big debt problem? Stop thinking about dicks and think about fixing your economy perhaps would be my advice.
How can anyone be agianst this? Noone has the right to decide FOR you that certain parts of your body should be cut off and mutilated. - As for the health benefits, just don't be lazy and clean your peepee. Also people can get it done later when THEY choose too, and while they can not yet make the decision, they probably won't and shouldn't be having sex yet anyway. Also also, DO take into account that every year in America alone hundreds of children are brought into the hospital with infections (and even die from them) caused by circumcisions.
On November 30 2010 05:34 Contagious wrote: Stupid law.. really why would you try to change something after so long lol.. This guy is making some stupid laws :x
also.. chicks don't like foreskin. obv known fact. lol
Keep doing something over and over again for the sake of nothing more than tradition is one of the dumbest reason to do anything. Especially when those action are done to someone who have absolutely no say in the matter what so ever.
On November 29 2010 13:26 Jarhead wrote: I agree with Krigwin. Watch the procedure some time, the baby doesn't look happy.
If you turn 18 and want it done, go for it. I just wish I hadn't had my genitals mutilated as a child.
Uhh... Okay...
Anyone using the word "mutilation" to describe this is just absurd.
I'm siding against this (But certainly not because of religious reasons, they just happen to be on the side I am supporting) but I don't understand why they would really want to outlaw this procedure? I could care less about what religion says but I don't really see a downside to it. If it supposedly helps prevent STD's and other 'diseases', why would they be trying to outlaw it?
I don't see any significant advantages coming out of this..
And god spoke to Moses, "Circumcise ur penis infidel! ur penis is unlean!" People seem to forget that not everyone have developed empathy for anyone else, that part of the brain is not active, they are called psycopaths (1 out of 25 people), and this is a perfect example of a tradition a psycopath would instill. This is the stuff that appears in all culture, where cowardly empathic people need to work against highly motivated psycopaths. Like feet wrapping in china or land diving in Vanuatu, human sacrifice from the atzec. there are traditions that are pretty hilarious for a psychopath.
The question is not if circumcision is healthy or not, the question u should ask urself is, what is the motivation behind someone suggesting or performing this in the first place?
On November 29 2010 21:16 venomium wrote: Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
What does that prove? The part you underlined says right after "this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision" which means it hurts the pro-circumcision side. The part you bolded doesn't show bias by the authors. That was written by the authors so if they were bias they would have just omitted it from their report instead of being honest about it.
Also nice editing there, here's the full paragraph with the part you left out in bold
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both. Nevertheless, these findings, in conjunction with data from observational studies20,21 and one trial in South Africa,31 demonstrate the efficacy of circumcision in decreasing the prevalence of HPV in adolescent boys and men.
This isn't the only study btw, there are lots similar to it. Here's a quote from wiki
The World Health Organization, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.
I don't understand what you are attempting to achieve with these posts. Circumcision reduces the risks of unprotected sex with HIV-positive people so children should all be circumcised? Are we expecting minors in California to be having rampant unprotected sex with infected African villagers here? Or maybe you're saying circumcision is the only way to reduce the risks of already risky sex with people who are diseased. No wait, that's not true either.
Please clarify how the point you're attempting to make is relevant to a ban on circumcision of minors. These studies you linked, while they provide some interesting medical data, don't really seem relevant to the discussion to me.
That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
I lived 23 yeas non-circumcised, and ill tell you id do it again in a heart beat. Circumcision was the best decision I made. Its so much better cut then not.
Also what about people that have tight forskins and need to get it cut because skin doesnt retract (my reasoning)
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
I find it sickening that some people insist their newborn is subject to such excruciating pain for the sake of appeasing some magic sky Daddy. Should the individual actually exercise their free will and choose for such an inane thing be done to their genitalia then by all means hack away.
On November 30 2010 06:14 composition wrote: outlaw the removal of wisdom teeth and appendix next.
You do know we're talking about what should and shouldn't be done to a baby right? Last I checked, removal of both the wisdom teeth and appendix are only done when they need to. For example, my appendix is still in tack and my wisdom teeth was remove with "MY" consent because it was messing up my teeth.
On November 29 2010 21:16 venomium wrote: Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
What does that prove? The part you underlined says right after "this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision" which means it hurts the pro-circumcision side. The part you bolded doesn't show bias by the authors. That was written by the authors so if they were bias they would have just omitted it from their report instead of being honest about it.
Also nice editing there, here's the full paragraph with the part you left out in bold
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both. Nevertheless, these findings, in conjunction with data from observational studies20,21 and one trial in South Africa,31 demonstrate the efficacy of circumcision in decreasing the prevalence of HPV in adolescent boys and men.
This isn't the only study btw, there are lots similar to it. Here's a quote from wiki
The World Health Organization, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.
I don't understand what you are attempting to achieve with these posts. Circumcision reduces the risks of unprotected sex with HIV-positive people so children should all be circumcised? Are we expecting minors in California to be having rampant unprotected sex with infected African villagers here? Or maybe you're saying circumcision is the only way to reduce the risks of already risky sex with people who are diseased. No wait, that's not true either.
Please clarify how the point you're attempting to make is relevant to a ban on circumcision of minors. These studies you linked, while they provide some interesting medical data, don't really seem relevant to the discussion to me.
That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
This would be a very good argument if you're planning to have your baby have repeated sex with known HIV positive people.
On November 30 2010 06:12 BlackJack wrote: That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
The majority of HIV infections are acquired through unprotected sexual relations. Complacency about HIV plays a key role in HIV risk.[3][4] Sexual transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions of one partner come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another. In high-income countries, the risk of female-to-male transmission is 0.04% per act and male-to-female transmission is 0.08% per act.
Holy shit, a 60% reduction of 0.04%? Please, we must circumcise every child immediately!
To be fair, the same wikipedia article goes on to say that WHO recommends circumcision in Africa because AIDs and HIV is so prevailant there and protection is not. If every third woman you're going to sleep with has HIV then I agree circumcision does stand out like an excellent option. As that's not the case, you have no case.
On November 29 2010 21:16 venomium wrote: Oh, and Blackjack, nice that you could find Google, but you should google your sources a little more. This studie has been considered false by many other studies, because the authors are biased.
For example
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both.
What does that prove? The part you underlined says right after "this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision" which means it hurts the pro-circumcision side. The part you bolded doesn't show bias by the authors. That was written by the authors so if they were bias they would have just omitted it from their report instead of being honest about it.
Also nice editing there, here's the full paragraph with the part you left out in bold
With respect to the use of circumcision to prevent HPV infection, our study was limited, since it was confined to a subgroup of subjects who were observed both at enrollment and at 24 months. In both the intervention and control groups, these subjects may represent a self-selected population of compliant subjects who could be at lower risk for HPV infection than the general population; this factor could result in an underestimation of the efficacy of male circumcision. Also, since samples were evaluated only at 24 months, we were limited in our ability to determine whether the reduced HPV prevalence after circumcision was due to a reduced rate of HPV acquisition, an increased rate of HPV clearance, or both. Nevertheless, these findings, in conjunction with data from observational studies20,21 and one trial in South Africa,31 demonstrate the efficacy of circumcision in decreasing the prevalence of HPV in adolescent boys and men.
This isn't the only study btw, there are lots similar to it. Here's a quote from wiki
The World Health Organization, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention state that evidence indicates male circumcision significantly reduces the risk of HIV acquisition by men during penile-vaginal sex.
I don't understand what you are attempting to achieve with these posts. Circumcision reduces the risks of unprotected sex with HIV-positive people so children should all be circumcised? Are we expecting minors in California to be having rampant unprotected sex with infected African villagers here? Or maybe you're saying circumcision is the only way to reduce the risks of already risky sex with people who are diseased. No wait, that's not true either.
Please clarify how the point you're attempting to make is relevant to a ban on circumcision of minors. These studies you linked, while they provide some interesting medical data, don't really seem relevant to the discussion to me.
That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
This would be a very good argument if you're planning to have your baby have repeated sex with known HIV positive people.
I don't know why someone would rather have a normal ding-dong than a circumcised one, other than to be "all-natural", or something silly like that. What I really don't understand is how wired up people are about being "mutilated". It's not harmful, It's not bad. If its going to be doing anything, its HELPING. Being sensitive about something that does not matter in the slightest is not the way to be IMO.
On November 30 2010 06:12 BlackJack wrote: That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
The majority of HIV infections are acquired through unprotected sexual relations. Complacency about HIV plays a key role in HIV risk.[3][4] Sexual transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions of one partner come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another. In high-income countries, the risk of female-to-male transmission is 0.04% per act and male-to-female transmission is 0.08% per act.
Holy shit, a 60% reduction of 0.04%? Please, we must circumcise every child immediately!
To be fair, the same wikipedia article goes on to say that WHO recommends circumcision in Africa because AIDs and HIV is so prevailant there and protection is not. If every third woman you're going to sleep with has HIV then I agree circumcision does stand out like an excellent option. As that's not the case, you have no case.
So in some parts of the world it can be a beneficial medical procedure and in other parts of the world it's brutal mutilation. And it's up to you to decide in which regions the benefits outweigh the risks based on your understanding of a wikipedia article. Now I think I understand.
On November 30 2010 06:51 TwilightStar wrote: It's not harmful, It's not bad. If its going to be doing anything, its HELPING.
Complications to circumcision are bad. Sure complications and botched surgeries are quite rare, but the actual benefit of circumcision is quite negligible as well.
Since it evens out, I'd err on the side of not doing it. Do I support a blanket ban? Not really, I don't care for the government to get involved. I still don't support circumcision, though.
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
Voila.
so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you.
and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them.
I do think a little history on the topic should be brought to light.
It seems that the U.S. is the only industrialized country who practices circumcision routinely. I’ve read that in Europe, Jews and Muslims, for religious reasons, are circumcised, but few others. So why does the U.S. engage in this ritual?
Firstly, note that the foreskin has an abundance of highly sensitive receptors. It also has a ridged band of muscles that protect the urinary tract from contaminants. Circumcision takes minutes to perform and within these minutes, veins, arteries, capillaries, nerves and nerve endings are destroyed; as are all the muscles, glands, epithelial tissue, and sexual sensitivity associated with the foreskin.
In ancient times (research shows that circumcision has been practiced since 3000 B.C.) the Egyptians performed it as a mark of slavery; Jews (at first just the tip of the foreskin was snipped) and Muslims as a religious rite. To the Romans and Greeks, it was so distasteful that it was outlawed. It wasn’t until the Victorian era that routine circumcision was practiced in the U.S. thanks to Dr. Lewis Sayre, who convinced society that circumcision would cure many of the ailments found in young boys, but what really hit home (now remember we’re in the Victorian era) was that it would END the desire for young boys to masturbate and hence cure insanity and retardation that comes from masturbation.
Other doctors obviously agreed. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (creator of “and they’re grrrrrrrrrrrrreat) cornflakes "A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision," he wrote.”The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement."
Due to the “vile habit of masturbation” circumcision was recommended by many practicing physicians in the late 1800s.
It wasn’t until the 70s that people began questioning the “need” for circumcision. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics revised their stance on circumcision. "The foreskin protects the glands throughout life."
Emotional feelings about the penis might be due to long-standing myths – hygiene being one of them and another aesthetics.
When asked about circumcision in an interview with Redbook in 1989, Dr. Benjamin Spock quite simply stated, "My own preference, if I had the good fortune to have another son, would be to leave his little penis alone."
Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
Whether or not circumcision is medically beneficial is irrelevant. There is really only one issue: given that some if not most people would prefer to be circumcised as an infant, and that we haven't invented time machines such that the person could make such a decision as an adult, who is in a better position to make the preferred choice of the future self of the infant: the parents or the government?
For example, my appendix is still in tack and my wisdom teeth was remove with "MY" consent because it was messing up my teeth.
What about the wisdom teeth of children? They lack the capacity to consent, just like the infant lacks the capacity to consent to a circumcision. It is up to the parents to make such a decision, and note that the removal of wisdom teeth is pretty much for aesthetic reasons.
On November 30 2010 06:12 BlackJack wrote: That's like the 3rd time in this thread where someone responded to a pro-circumcision post with "So what are you saying, that ALL children should be circumcised?" What the heck...
I think it's obvious what I am saying --> male circumcision has medical benefits. According to the WHO, "There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%." 60% of a usually fatal disease is nothing to shake a stick at.
Or maybe my point was that male circumcision is just mutilation and pointless and disgusting and therefore should only be recommended for Africans.
Children are sexually active before 18 so this law won't be doing them a favor.
The majority of HIV infections are acquired through unprotected sexual relations. Complacency about HIV plays a key role in HIV risk.[3][4] Sexual transmission can occur when infected sexual secretions of one partner come into contact with the genital, oral, or rectal mucous membranes of another. In high-income countries, the risk of female-to-male transmission is 0.04% per act and male-to-female transmission is 0.08% per act.
Holy shit, a 60% reduction of 0.04%? Please, we must circumcise every child immediately!
To be fair, the same wikipedia article goes on to say that WHO recommends circumcision in Africa because AIDs and HIV is so prevailant there and protection is not. If every third woman you're going to sleep with has HIV then I agree circumcision does stand out like an excellent option. As that's not the case, you have no case.
The value of human life isn't quantifiable. The real world doesn't operate on probabilities. If there's even a chance to save one life, it should be taken. There are billions of people are on the earth. .04% of 6 billion is a lot. 60% of that is still a lot.
On November 30 2010 07:57 Arkansassy wrote: If this has already been covered, I apologize for stepping on anyone's toes. But I do think a little history on the topic should be brought to light.
It seems that the U.S. is the only industrialized country who practices circumcision routinely. I’ve read that in Europe, Jews and Muslims, for religious reasons, are circumcised, but few others. So why does the U.S. engage in this ritual?
Firstly, note that the foreskin has an abundance of highly sensitive receptors. It also has a ridged band of muscles that protect the urinary tract from contaminants. Circumcision takes minutes to perform and within these minutes, veins, arteries, capillaries, nerves and nerve endings are destroyed; as are all the muscles, glands, epithelial tissue, and sexual sensitivity associated with the foreskin.
In ancient times (research shows that circumcision has been practiced since 3000 B.C.) the Egyptians performed it as a mark of slavery; Jews (at first just the tip of the foreskin was snipped) and Muslims as a religious rite. To the Romans and Greeks, it was so distasteful that it was outlawed. It wasn’t until the Victorian era that routine circumcision was practiced in the U.S. thanks to Dr. Lewis Sayre, who convinced society that circumcision would cure many of the ailments found in young boys, but what really hit home (now remember we’re in the Victorian era) was that it would END the desire for young boys to masturbate and hence cure insanity and retardation that comes from masturbation.
Other doctors obviously agreed. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (creator of “and they’re grrrrrrrrrrrrreat) cornflakes "A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision," he wrote.”The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement."
Due to the “vile habit of masturbation” circumcision was recommended by many practicing physicians in the late 1800s.
It wasn’t until the 70s that people began questioning the “need” for circumcision. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics revised their stance on circumcision. "The foreskin protects the glands throughout life."
Emotional feelings about the penis might be due to long-standing myths – hygiene being one of them and another aesthetics.
When asked about circumcision in an interview with Redbook in 1989, Dr. Benjamin Spock quite simply stated, "My own preference, if I had the good fortune to have another son, would be to leave his little penis alone."
Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
you're not stepping on anyone's toes by repeating what's been said, you're just being a shitty poster.
If you do not want to bother reading through a thread, no one's going to give two fucks about your contribution to it.
From the point of view of a guy who didn't have their body maliciously modified to meet religious or other unjustified standards (read: sarcasm, I'm not really that biased):
1. "It's cleaner." Buy soap. Buy a washcloth. Take a shower. It's really not that hard.
2. "It's safer." Really? I haven't seen much legitimate evidence (read: repeated studies published in peer reviewed academic journals) that would suggest circumcision is genuinely safer from a medical standpoint.
3. "Women prefer a the look of a circumcised penis." Good for them. How is that my problem?
Personally, I'd rather have a sensitive glans and learn to use a washcloth and practice safe sex than walk around missing a functional body part because a girl doesn't want to slide it back.
3. "Women prefer a the look of a circumcised penis." Good for them. How is that my problem?
Avoiding the other ones, but this one was kind of annoying God knows women CLEARLY do not put ANY effort into making themselves more attractive for men, right?
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
Voila.
so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you.
No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing.
and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them. [/QUOTE]
What? 1) Women are disgusting 2) This topic is not about 'getting even' with women because they smell/taste as bad as uncut men 3) I did not show support for or against the ban. All i said was that circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
On November 30 2010 09:34 tbrown47 wrote: Does this mean my penis is a freak : [
sorry penis : [
it's a matter of perspective.
If you're uncut, your penis is not a freak, it just looks like it. If you're cut then your penis is a great pretender, as it is a freak buts fools people otherwise.
Having a circumcised penis here is extremely rare, in fact, not very many people are even aware how widespread it is in the states. Foreskin is "normal" here.
Personally, I'd rather have a sensitive glans and learn to use a washcloth and practice safe sex than walk around missing a functional body part because a girl doesn't want to slide it back.
And you're entitled to your preference. But how would you feel if the government mandated that all male infants be circumcised? Now you understand the position of those who prefer to have been circumcised as an infant.
Here is another way to look at this: under the current regime of letting the parents decide, there will of course be those who are circumcised who would prefer not to have been, and those who aren't who would prefer to have been. But how many of those people are there? Not so many that the government should decide what the "correct" preference should be. It seems that men in general are happy with their penises (or at least, happy with whether it is cut or not). It is far more likely that a government mandate that no one be circumcised will create more unhappiness.
On November 30 2010 09:31 LazyMacro wrote: From the point of view of a guy who didn't have their body maliciously modified to meet religious or other unjustified standards (read: sarcasm, I'm not really that biased):
1. "It's cleaner." Buy soap. Buy a washcloth. Take a shower. It's really not that hard.
2. "It's safer." Really? I haven't seen much legitimate evidence (read: repeated studies published in peer reviewed academic journals) that would suggest circumcision is genuinely safer from a medical standpoint.
3. "Women prefer a the look of a circumcised penis." Good for them. How is that my problem?
Personally, I'd rather have a sensitive glans and learn to use a washcloth and practice safe sex than walk around missing a functional body part because a girl doesn't want to slide it back.
I am an ant eater and I'm going to completely ignore the fact that the discussion here should be about whether or not government should be intervening in matters such as this and advocate how content I am with my penis. Nobody cares that you're happy with your penis, many of us are as well. The point is they are banning a practice for no apparent reason. The skin surrounding your dick head is a functional body part really? You're like the 15th person to try to make the procedure sound worse than it is. Personally, I'd rather have a sensitive penis and not have to learn any of that shit and walk around with a baller cock that girls like to look at. So don't ban it, get it?
PS. circumcised dicks have skin as well, whatever function you think you have over a circumcised dick is probably a fallacy.
On November 30 2010 09:47 drewcifer wrote: Personally, I'd rather have a sensitive penis and not have to learn any of that shit and walk around with a baller cock that girls like to look at. So don't ban it, get it?
Eh, looks like my post may have come off the wrong way.
Obviously, the issues here are (1) government control over a person's body and (2) who has the legal/moral right to make that decision for a child that is incapable of making the decision themselves.
For reasons that should be obvious, I oppose government control over every little stupid thing. Should the government decide that boys must or must not be circumcised? Absolutely not.
With regards to the second issue...I'm not so sure. I would be pissed if I were. (Obviously I'm entitled to my opinion; I'm just saying I agree that it's ridiculous the government in SF is trying to ban it. I'm just saying I'm not sure if it's right for parents to make a permanent decision like that.)
I think the notion that it's the child's decision is just silly. No one is going to want to go through with that at age 17, even if they'd rather be circumcised. It should remain the parent's decision, because the kid won't really have much of a choice either way.
Is this really an issue for argument? I can't help but wonder how many people here are genuinely upset that their penis was "mutilated" by their parents at brith as opposed to just exaggerating their feelings to reinforce a point. I haven't met a single person in real life that actually cared about this. It's not as if it's some sort of traumatic experience that you remember for the rest of your life and you simply get used to whatever type of body you have as you grow up. It's really much less of an issue than I think most of the people in this thread are making it out to be.
I think San Francisco really has better stuff to be worrying about than a relatively minor procedure that the vast majority of people really don't care about one way or the other.
[B] Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
I feel just the same way, but if there ever was a law needed in peoples private lives, child abuse would be a good place to start
[B] Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
I feel just the same way, but if there ever was a law needed in peoples private lives, child abuse would be a good place to start
[B] Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
I feel just the same way, but if there ever was a law needed in peoples private lives, child abuse would be a good place to start
Bingo.
Bingo circumcision is child abuse people.
Guys, not to stomp on your parade or anything but...I'm living proof that circumcision is not child abuse or mutilation as you portray it to be. My parents decided my dick needed to be butchered as a child as you would put it, yet I never suffered a single day because of this decision and I am rather glad they went through with it.
It's kind of strange to come to this thread and repeatedly see people so out of the ordinary passionate over this. I mean honestly why are you guys constantly trying to portray this as an act of abuse? It just wreaks of someone who is trying to make reality seem like something it's not. When you're so plainly trying to distort the truth, your opinion's strength starts to dwindle(in my opinion)...so for the sake of your argument please stop referring to circumcision as anything but a medical procedure..you're only hurting your credibility. I don't disagree with what you said, just how you said it. We all agree that it is retarded for the government to intervene here, but the subtle amount of hate I am sensing from ant eaters is making me think this was the reason for the ban in the first place. I'm dying to know why you guys care so much about other people's dicks.
You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly.
On November 30 2010 07:57 Arkansassy wrote: If this has already been covered, I apologize for stepping on anyone's toes. But I do think a little history on the topic should be brought to light.
It seems that the U.S. is the only industrialized country who practices circumcision routinely. I’ve read that in Europe, Jews and Muslims, for religious reasons, are circumcised, but few others. So why does the U.S. engage in this ritual?
Firstly, note that the foreskin has an abundance of highly sensitive receptors. It also has a ridged band of muscles that protect the urinary tract from contaminants. Circumcision takes minutes to perform and within these minutes, veins, arteries, capillaries, nerves and nerve endings are destroyed; as are all the muscles, glands, epithelial tissue, and sexual sensitivity associated with the foreskin.
In ancient times (research shows that circumcision has been practiced since 3000 B.C.) the Egyptians performed it as a mark of slavery; Jews (at first just the tip of the foreskin was snipped) and Muslims as a religious rite. To the Romans and Greeks, it was so distasteful that it was outlawed. It wasn’t until the Victorian era that routine circumcision was practiced in the U.S. thanks to Dr. Lewis Sayre, who convinced society that circumcision would cure many of the ailments found in young boys, but what really hit home (now remember we’re in the Victorian era) was that it would END the desire for young boys to masturbate and hence cure insanity and retardation that comes from masturbation.
Other doctors obviously agreed. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (creator of “and they’re grrrrrrrrrrrrreat) cornflakes "A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision," he wrote.”The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement."
Due to the “vile habit of masturbation” circumcision was recommended by many practicing physicians in the late 1800s.
It wasn’t until the 70s that people began questioning the “need” for circumcision. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics revised their stance on circumcision. "The foreskin protects the glands throughout life."
Emotional feelings about the penis might be due to long-standing myths – hygiene being one of them and another aesthetics.
When asked about circumcision in an interview with Redbook in 1989, Dr. Benjamin Spock quite simply stated, "My own preference, if I had the good fortune to have another son, would be to leave his little penis alone."
Whilst I deem the ritual barbaric and unnecessary, (plus there are guys that need that extra bit of meat j/k) I am adamantly opposed to giving the government more control in my private life.
you're not stepping on anyone's toes by repeating what's been said, you're just being a shitty poster.
If you do not want to bother reading through a thread, no one's going to give two fucks about your contribution to it.
I offered some history for anyone interested. If no one cares to read it, it's up to them. I just put it out there.
On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote: You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly.
So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please.
Edit: Furthermore, infant are very susceptible to many bacteria and viruses thus making vaccination a pretty important decision. I still don't see the importance of circumcision other than a traditional thing.
On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote: You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly.
So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please.
You're not making it look any less exaggeratedly silly.
On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote: You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly.
So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please.
You're not making it look any less exaggeratedly silly.
I don't know about you, but if someone point a gun to my head a make be choose between getting vaccination, or circumcision, I would choose the vaccination in a heartbeat. Hell if I have to choose between circumcision and getting shot in the arm, I still wouldn't choose circumcision. So until there are scientific prove that an infant don't have the same reaction to pain as a toddler, I still can't in good conscience able to put my child to such an ordeal.
Why does the level of rhetoric need to be so high on such a ridiculous issue?
I'd rather be shot than get circumcised... Glad you're putting together 2 realistic options there. Child abuse is a legitimate concern and bad parenting should be policed more heavily for poor parenting and increased programs to help parents... but I'd say trying to ban circumcisions isn't the best outlet for this argument.
Hell, I'm much more concerned about parents who have some ridiculously strong inclination one way or the other towards circumcision than I am about the actual practice of it.
This is an unnecessary medical procedure and should no longer be allowed to be done to children who can not consent to having their body altered.
This is what it comes down to. No, it is not the parent's right to do whatever they want to their children. Parents do not *own* children like a piece of property. Any parent who puts their child through this should be ashamed of themselves because they have denied their child the ability to experience their life and body how they see fit and to make their own informed decisions about how they might want to alter their body.
On another note, I am also opposed to parents getting their infant's or toddler's ears pierced. Unless the child asks for it and they know what it is going to entail, the parents have no right to do these things to their children.
Yes, I said it. They have no right. There is no medical benefit to either of these procedures (specifically in the case of circumcision, nothing benefical that regular hygiene cannot take care of) and doing these things to children without their consent is on the same level as rape and child abuse in my eyes.
Again, specifically with circumcision, this is an irreversible medical procedure. Supposedly you can put yourself through months or years of penis skin stretching to simulate a new foreskin, but your shouldn't have to go through that much work to get back something you had no say in having taken away from you.
Irreversible medical procedures for adults that do not have any physical health benefits require a note from a psychologist declaring that you're not crazy in order to have them done. It's crazy to do this to children.
On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote: I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p
When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them.
Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure.
The simple point is that unless somewhat made it an issue to convince you that you were mutilated, you would never know nor would you ever have an issue with it. So why is something like this such a big issue for some of you people? What about piercing a girl's ears as a baby? You people are droning on and on about how it should be the child's choice, but the reality is that a child has very little choice when it comes to the circumstances surrounding their upbringing. A child's fate as an adult is always tied to the choices his parents made for him. Strangely enough, I would imagine many people here arguing about this are also the very same people that are pro-choice for abortion because they don't feel a child has rights at that stage in life. Why do you then go and assume that a child should have rights at this stage (or any other stage)?
This isn't child abuse and it's far from a barbaric ritual. It takes place during a part of the child's life where the child will have no memory of it and therefore, there's no reason to think that there will be any traumatic effect that carries over into that child's life. If there was a single argument that I'd accept about this issue, it would probably the the concern raised over a medical procedure that could potentially go wrong and destroy the child's genitals, but that's pretty rare. Seriously, is there anyone here that has really SUFFERED due to being circumcised? From hygiene to sexual performance and health, everyone I know on both the cut and uncut ends are fine. You learn to deal with whatever you have, so why does it matter what you have?
i was circumsized when i was 14 years old, i seen both sides of the spectrum. i have no regrets. anyways this wont pass lol
edit: why do people act like circumcision totally changes the kids life ?? it doesnt. im no different from someone non circumcised.
banning this practice is just some mad liberal douches (no im not conservative) acting up. why do they give clean IV needles to heroin addicts? cause their gonna shoot up anyway. atleast make it safe.
same shit with this, ban it and it will be done in a unsafe 3rd world fashion
On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote: You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly.
So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please.
You're not making it look any less exaggeratedly silly.
I don't know about you, but if someone point a gun to my head a make be choose between getting vaccination, or circumcision, I would choose the vaccination in a heartbeat. Hell if I have to choose between circumcision and getting shot in the arm, I still wouldn't choose circumcision. So until there are scientific prove that an infant don't have the same reaction to pain as a toddler, I still can't in good conscience able to put my child to such an ordeal.
I'd rather dive into the center of a black hole than get un-circumcised. I'd rather be vaporized by radiation from the sun by standing point blank and asking it for his autograph than get un-circumcised. Hell, I'd rather be in the middle of the ocean ass naked aside from a top hat and bowling shoes surrounded by ravenous starved sharks floating on this: Than be un-circumcised..
So commence the butchering of all penises and fine them if they don't.
Do people really think circumcision is that horrible? Jesus, what is wrong with you people? It really is "just a medical procedure." Yes, it is actually pretty minor. Besides, foreskin just looks bizarre anyway.
I see this as a blatant attack on Judiasm, honestly. I was actually under the impression that most people were circumcised nowadays, though.
On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote: I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p
When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them.
Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure.
Hey, I have a scar in my right eyebrow from when I was 6 too Which I remember that got me traumatized for a few months during which I was afraid to go back to the kitchen. That sounds a little cruel and it doesn't bring me anything good.
On the other hand I've got another scar. On my dick, from when I was 1 minute old. I don't remember any of that, I didn't get traumatized about it at point in my life. I don't remember thinking it was bad at all. For all practical effects, for me, the 'pain' I felt didn't exist. The only practical effect left is that it might have a slight chance of helping my hygiene. Which might be very small and insignificant. But is still more than the pain that I remember from it. Which is nothing.
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
Voila.
so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you.
No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing.
and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them.
shit now i regret being uncircumcised.
any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness?
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
Voila.
so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you.
No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing.
and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them.
shit now i regret being uncircumcised.
any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness?
Just be mindful to keep it washed well and you'll be fine.
On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote: This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this.
naw ur not alone in that
On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote: Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution
gross dude
.... but now im curious. why?
After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater).
However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment:
Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion.
Voila.
so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you.
No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing.
and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them.
shit now i regret being uncircumcised.
any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness?
Just be mindful to keep it washed well and you'll be fine.
You really wont...didn't you see all the things I'd rather do instead of being un-circumcised? This is a logical argument that you must consider now...Your ugly un-graced dick is a monstrosity to mankind. See how fun it is to use exaggeration as the basis of your argument? Fuck trying to make sense
Ban braces and piercings and pulling teeth and removing tonsils and appendixes and hideous moles and weird birthmarks and skin tags until kids are 18! Save children from the oppressive hand of parents! The government is a better parent then they could ever be! Save me government!
Seriously this legislation is not needed. So you like don't like it, so you do - the government doesn't really need to have a say in something so insignificant.
Doing something irreversible to a child before that child is old enough to understand and/or consent to that thing is pretty much the definition of parenting. The real question is whether you want the government doing more parenting for you or less. I happen to prefer less.
But anyway I hope all you "intactivists" out there have a grand old time on your trivial-ass campaign against the slaughterhouse horrors of circumcision.
On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote: I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p
When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them.
Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure.
Hey, I have a scar in my right eyebrow from when I was 6 too Which I remember that got me traumatized for a few months during which I was afraid to go back to the kitchen. That sounds a little cruel and it doesn't bring me anything good.
On the other hand I've got another scar. On my dick, from when I was 1 minute old. I don't remember any of that, I didn't get traumatized about it at point in my life. I don't remember thinking it was bad at all. For all practical effects, for me, the 'pain' I felt didn't exist. The only practical effect left is that it might have a slight chance of helping my hygiene. Which might be very small and insignificant. But is still more than the pain that I remember from it. Which is nothing.
Just because someone doesn't have any recollection of the pain they experience doesn't mean that it is okay that pain is inflicted upon them. With your reasoning, it is okay for people to hurt vegetative and brain damage people cause hell, not like they know what is happening to them. My argument for against circumcision still remain the same.
1. For the most part, circumcision is a medically irrelevant operation with no significant benefit for infant born in industrialized nation.
2. There is a growing concern that a newborn infant can feel pain. If that pain is from something that is unneeded, I don't feel that it should be dealt to an infant.
3. Religious and traditional practice is not a good excuse for such an operation to take place.
4. I rather let the kid get older, maybe at an age of 16 where in is informed enough to choose if he want to be circumcise or not.
5. Circumcision is an irreversible or very expensive to reverse, thus such choice should belong to the individual and not their parent.
Prove me wrong and I will gladly concede my position.
For all of you suggesting that you don't remember it and wouldn't miss it, why stop at just the foreskin? Why not just cut children's penis and testicles off while you're at it? Sure it may hurt, but you won't remember it and you won't miss it because you'll never know what it's like to have it in the first place.
Foreskin is more like an organ than "just a piece of skin". Would you really consent to having any healthy, non diseased part of your body removed permanently? If you think that having healthy body parts surgically removed is insignificant then I don't know what to say. Males should have the same legal protection as females.
On November 30 2010 14:06 Hanners wrote: For all of you suggesting that you don't remember it and wouldn't miss it, why stop at just the foreskin? Why not just cut children's penis and testicles off while you're at it? Sure it may hurt, but you won't remember it and you won't miss it because you'll never know what it's like to have it in the first place.
Wow shit, I never thought of this before. You finally convinced me man thanks for the wonderful insight you guys have been able to establish in this thread. I wish I had my skin back baby...maybe one day I'll find you and we can be reunited once again. Anyway it's clear that you guys have no idea wtf to respond with and are kind of boring now so cya ! :D
On November 30 2010 14:06 Hanners wrote: For all of you suggesting that you don't remember it and wouldn't miss it, why stop at just the foreskin? Why not just cut children's penis and testicles off while you're at it? Sure it may hurt, but you won't remember it and you won't miss it because you'll never know what it's like to have it in the first place.
Yes, because the foreskin is just so useful and part of human growth, isn't it?