EPTHeadphone enthusiast thread! - Page 70
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
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The Prowler
United States11 Posts
That said I'm not really a hardcore audiophile and don't really understand the amp/dac combo. Can anyone explain exactly what those do for me? Does the using both and amp and a dac essentially take over all the audio processing from your source or would I still be suffering from using the computer? Will just an amp suffice and does anyone have any recommendations? | ||
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rrwrwx
United States247 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On May 13 2011 10:38 rrwrwx wrote: Im deliberating the purchase of a pair of Sennheiser HD 558's, they are exactly at teh limit of my price range. can anyone tell me if this is a good choice? I haven't tried 558's but I am very pleased with my 555s. However I am not sure if the HD 558's are worth the extra money. | ||
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On May 14 2011 13:20 The Prowler wrote: My pair of HD 595's died last week and my brother was nice enough to give me his pair of 600's. I'm finding that my motherboard isn't really able to power these things though and as a result am looking into investing in an amp. That said I'm not really a hardcore audiophile and don't really understand the amp/dac combo. Can anyone explain exactly what those do for me? Does the using both and amp and a dac essentially take over all the audio processing from your source or would I still be suffering from using the computer? Will just an amp suffice and does anyone have any recommendations? What an amp does, is it takes a source, and makes it louder (amplifying it). A DAC (digital to analogue converter) takes a digital source (coax or optical), and converts it to an analog one. Essentially, if one of these components is bad and introducing noise or not correctly working with the audio, it hinders the other one. You can go from a clean soundcard (200$ or more on that) to a decent amp, then to headphones, as the soundcard is basically a DAC in of itself. Lets follow the signal of music, shall we? Music is in the forum of a wave. In order for us to store it on a digital format (completely comprised of 1's and 0's,) we break it up and represent the wave forum in the value of 1's and 0's. (a bit more complicated, but oh well). The best way to do this without any loss of data, is by storing it in the FLAC format, which is almost lossless. However, in order to listen to it as best as possible, that data, or flac file, needs to be turned back into an analog stream (back into the wave forum) Most modern DAC's do this at an ok level, but they are mostly integrated into your pc (think headphones jack on anything electronic). The difference between a high-end, external DAC and one of those is the difference between having something in SD or 1080p. However, if your monitor (ala headphones in this example) isn't the best, you won't get all the detail. So you go out and get a 500$ pair of cans (a set of headphones), and you can now listen to the dac without much trouble. However, a lot of the top end speakers actually need the signal to be louder, (carrying more power), as the components that make up the headphones won't respond correctly. (speakers are made of magnets. better and bigger require more power) This is where your amp comes in. It takes that analog source, and makes it louder (increasing current to it), thus allowing you to listen to everything in its full glory. One weakness in this chain, and you won't have the full experience. | ||
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Mechwarrior
United States76 Posts
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The Prowler
United States11 Posts
On May 14 2011 13:53 hellsan631 wrote: You can go from a clean soundcard (200$ or more on that) to a decent amp, then to headphones, as the soundcard is basically a DAC in of itself. Thanks for the post, I found it pretty helpful in understanding how each part of the chain functions. What I gather from this part is I can forego the soundcard purchase and simply go computer -> dac -> amp -> headphones, correct? One of my speakers on the 595 is still working and when comparing to the 600's I notice a distinct lack of power in the bass and highs (in addition to an overall drop in volume). It all sounds very subdued. Would this be something an amp alone can correct or should I look into investing in both a DAC and amp, whether in a combo or seperate? | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On May 14 2011 13:53 hellsan631 wrote: + Show Spoiler [text] + What an amp does, is it takes a source, and makes it louder (amplifying it). A DAC (digital to analogue converter) takes a digital source (coax or optical), and converts it to an analog one. Essentially, if one of these components is bad and introducing noise or not correctly working with the audio, it hinders the other one. You can go from a clean soundcard (200$ or more on that) to a decent amp, then to headphones, as the soundcard is basically a DAC in of itself. Lets follow the signal of music, shall we? Music is in the forum of a wave. In order for us to store it on a digital format (completely comprised of 1's and 0's,) we break it up and represent the wave forum in the value of 1's and 0's. (a bit more complicated, but oh well). The best way to do this without any loss of data, is by storing it in the FLAC format, which is almost lossless. However, in order to listen to it as best as possible, that data, or flac file, needs to be turned back into an analog stream (back into the wave forum) Most modern DAC's do this at an ok level, but they are mostly integrated into your pc (think headphones jack on anything electronic). The difference between a high-end, external DAC and one of those is the difference between having something in SD or 1080p. However, if your monitor (ala headphones in this example) isn't the best, you won't get all the detail. So you go out and get a 500$ pair of cans (a set of headphones), and you can now listen to the dac without much trouble. However, a lot of the top end speakers actually need the signal to be louder, (carrying more power), as the components that make up the headphones won't respond correctly. (speakers are made of magnets. better and bigger require more power) This is where your amp comes in. It takes that analog source, and makes it louder (increasing current to it), thus allowing you to listen to everything in its full glory. One weakness in this chain, and you won't have the full experience. For headphones, an amp often times does amplify the input signal, but the primary purpose of the amp is to replicate the input signal as closely as possible (except that the output may be doubled or whatever--I'm talking about following the shape). That's difficult in practice because of the high current requirements. That's why you need a dedicated device or output stage of a device for exactly that purpose. Different amps will distort in different ways and by different amounts with different loads and different voltage levels. There are a lot of factors involved! An amp may perform well in some regards and more poorly in others. Amps that manage to follow the input very closely under many different situations will be better. This is why a good amp can sound better than a bad amp even when both are outputting the same volume. It's not just about increasing the volume, but providing a cleaner output (that more closely matches the input). A lossless audio format like FLAC decodes exactly (no loss) into the source material from which it was encoded. i.e. it's lossless versus the CD. The CD has finite sampling rate (44.1 kHz) and bit depth (16 bits), so that's a digitized and thus lossy representation of whatever the studio master was. Granted, nobody can actually hear the difference between a normal audio CD and the studio master, so that's hardly important. And you may say the signal the microphone picks up in the studio is lossy (noisy) compared to the real thing, but that's a discussion for another day. To claim that the difference between a relatively cheap DAC and a high-end external DAC is like SD versus 1080p is a gross exaggeration. Also, SD versus 1080p represents how much data there is, not the implementation of how that data is decoded. That's a different domain. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On May 14 2011 14:43 The Prowler wrote: Thanks for the post, I found it pretty helpful in understanding how each part of the chain functions. What I gather from this part is I can forego the soundcard purchase and simply go computer -> dac -> amp -> headphones, correct? One of my speakers on the 595 is still working and when comparing to the 600's I notice a distinct lack of power in the bass and highs (in addition to an overall drop in volume). It all sounds very subdued. Would this be something an amp alone can correct or should I look into investing in both a DAC and amp, whether in a combo or seperate? Yes you can go computer -> DAC -> amp -> headphones. Sound cards have DACs (and ADCs for inputs). Those with headphone amps also have the amp portion as well, so you get both parts. You could say they're a DAC/amp combo. It's difficult to diagnose exactly what the problem is you describe with the HD 600. The integrated amp almost certainly is a problem, particularly at any higher volumes, but the integrated DAC may or may not be an issue. Regardless, onboard solutions don't have real line outputs, so you probably want an external DAC anyway. (Else you'd be using the internal DAC through the internal amp through your external amp.) | ||
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The Prowler
United States11 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
You could get the Asus Essence ST (PCI) or STX (PCI-E) and call it a day. Those are among the most popular sound cards for headphones. They have very good specs in theory for the DAC, and they're advertised as having a powerful and decent headphone amp. Some people raise objections about the use of the computer's power supply and noise from the rest of the computer, and will claim that external solutions would be better. Keep in mind that the size of components on a sound card is limited by the form factor. I'm not sure how valid those complaints are. A popular choice these days seems to be the Fiio E7 DAC with the Fiio E9 amp. I'm not sure if there's a particular justification for pairing the two other than the fact that the E9 has a special dock for the E7. I think the Fiio products have their share of detractors as well, maybe from some who don't hear what they want out of it, or don't believe in Chinese products, or don't believe in solid state amps. It's hard to say. | ||
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On May 14 2011 14:55 Myrmidon wrote: For headphones, an amp often times does amplify the input signal, but the primary purpose of the amp is to replicate the input signal as closely as possible (except that the output may be doubled or whatever--I'm talking about following the shape). That's difficult in practice because of the high current requirements. That's why you need a dedicated device or output stage of a device for exactly that purpose. Different amps will distort in different ways and by different amounts with different loads and different voltage levels. There are a lot of factors involved! An amp may perform well in some regards and more poorly in others. Amps that manage to follow the input very closely under many different situations will be better. This is why a good amp can sound better than a bad amp even when both are outputting the same volume. It's not just about increasing the volume, but providing a cleaner output (that more closely matches the input). A lossless audio format like FLAC decodes exactly (no loss) into the source material from which it was encoded. i.e. it's lossless versus the CD. The CD has finite sampling rate (44.1 kHz) and bit depth (16 bits), so that's a digitized and thus lossy representation of whatever the studio master was. Granted, nobody can actually hear the difference between a normal audio CD and the studio master, so that's hardly important. And you may say the signal the microphone picks up in the studio is lossy (noisy) compared to the real thing, but that's a discussion for another day. To claim that the difference between a relatively cheap DAC and a high-end external DAC is like SD versus 1080p is a gross exaggeration. Also, SD versus 1080p represents how much data there is, not the implementation of how that data is decoded. That's a different domain. Have you tried some state-of-the-art DACs Myrmidon? (Not trying to make an argument out of it, just genuinely curious about it.) | ||
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BigBirdy90
Canada135 Posts
<3 ![[image loading]](http://www.besportier.com/archives/surround-sound-headset-logitech-g35-7-1.jpg) | ||
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QuackPocketDuck
410 Posts
Prefer closed back sound isolation as I really do not need to hear the air con above my head which is on most of the time nor my graphics cards, come in handy for lans aswell. Chose DT770 after reading a bunch of reviews they seemed to be the most comfortable in the price range + forever am a fan of products made in their country of origin.  | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On May 14 2011 17:06 Fyodor wrote: Have you tried some state-of-the-art DACs Myrmidon? (Not trying to make an argument out of it, just genuinely curious about it.) I've used some fairly high-end DAC before as part of a system, but it wasn't an audio system.  I write a lot of things based on things I know and things I think I know based on interpretation of the facts and some experience, but some of it may be off base. If somebody else has a different viewpoint or can correct a factual mistake, I'm all ears. | ||
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shabinka
United States469 Posts
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gerundium
Netherlands786 Posts
On May 14 2011 15:53 The Prowler wrote: Very cool. If I'm on a budget of around ~$300 might any of you have any recommendations for my setup of computer -> dac -> amp -> hd600 (I'm assuming $300 will get me somewhere, please correct me if I'm wrong). I'll be doing some research myself but any helpful steering would be appreciated. the Sennheiser HD 600 is a really good headphone but they need some power to get the most out of them. for around 300 dollars you can get a pretty good DAC + amp combo. you can get an all in one package or two seperate units. Fiio is a chinese brand that has been putting out very good products at extremely competitive prices. they are extremely good quality for the cost and are generally the DAC + amp advised at this price range. the combo is the Fiio E7 + the E9 ![[image loading]](http://cdn.head-fi.org/f/fa/faa0acd1_Fiio_e7-01.jpg) Fiio E7 ![[image loading]](http://assets.head-fi.org/a/a8/a8377af6_B00470Q76K-410Pml8TFtL.jpg) Fiio E9 The Fiio E7 is by nature a portable device, it has a really good DAC portion and also contains an amp (you can link your ipod line out to the E7 and then plug headphones into the E7.) the amp portion of the E7 is limited due to the size constraints of a portable device. this is where the E9 comes in, it is a desktop dedicated amp. it has a port on top where you can put the E7 in, and it will use only the DAC portion of the E7 and use the amp portion of the E9, which is much stronger. this combines the excellent DAC of the E7 and the power of a desk top amplifier in the E9. EDIT: this is a USB set up btw, you bypass your computer sound card which is generally a compromise in sound quality. your full setup then consists of: Sound file --> media player --> Fiio E7 --> fiio E9 --> headphones. or if you want to use a portable set up: ipod --> fiio e7 --> headphone (would not recommend this for the hd 600, they are meant for home use and the extra juice from the E9 is neccesary ( imo) | ||
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The Prowler
United States11 Posts
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MusiK
United States302 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 16 2011 08:08 shabinka wrote: I got a pair for $85 off Amazon and I absolutely adore them, especially for the price (They're over 200 here, but I got my grandma in the US to ship me them). I use them for everything from music to games, and they hold up well in all scenarios. I went from HD280s to them and the difference was way bigger than I thought. After burning in they are even better. They are also insanely comfortable, much more comfortable than my HD280s. The velour earpads are a nice touch, especially for the price, where you usually get hot, clammy fake leather pads. They seem like a great buy for beginners or people on a budget. For everyday use, they are great. What are your thoughts on the HD555? I was looking to spend under $100 and was looking for some recommendations. Keep in mind they are open designed, so sound will leak out though. Sound leaked a lot more than I thought it would when I first tested out my pair. The difference in sound is huge though compared to closed design. | ||
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