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FinBenton
Finland870 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:07 KiDYoMi wrote: If i plug my headphones into my A/V receiver, is it working like a dedicated headphone amp? Most likely not if it aint good vintage amp or really really expencive recent one. HP output in av amps is done by attenuating speaker output. | ||
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Cutebone
United States62 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:42 FinBenton wrote: Most likely not if it aint good vintage amp or really really expencive recent one. HP output in av amps is done by attenuating speaker output. O ok icicic. So I'm looking to upgrade my setup... right now I have: Receiver: Onkyo HT-S3400 5.1-Channel Home Theater System Headphones: Audio Technica ATH-M50s Headphones: Sennheiser HD 598s Amp: none Soundcard: none Would you guys recommend an amp or soundcard? If yes, which ones? If possible, how would I integrate the new additions with my current set-up? Budget of ~$300 USD Right now I have hdmi from pc's video card going into my receiver, and hdmi from xbox going into reciever, and 1 hdmi out from receiver going to monitor. Thank you, good luck, and have fun | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:17 KiDYoMi wrote: O ok icicic. So I'm looking to upgrade my setup... right now I have: Receiver: Onkyo HT-S3400 5.1-Channel Home Theater System Headphones: Audio Technica ATH-M50s Headphones: Sennheiser HD 598s Amp: none Soundcard: none Would you guys recommend an amp or soundcard? If yes, which ones? If possible, how would I integrate the new additions with my current set-up? Budget of ~$300 USD Right now I have hdmi from pc's video card going into my receiver, and hdmi from xbox going into reciever, and 1 hdmi out from receiver going to monitor. Thank you, good luck, and have fun Well your receiver is already doing the decoding, so I'd just get an amp at that point. All you'd need is a 6.3mm male to male interconnect to go from the headphone jack on the front of the receiver into your headphone amp. As for which amp to get... well that's up to you. A good budget oriented amp for you to test the waters with would be the Fiio E9 (~$110). I don't know that much about more expensive amps to recommend anything better. Your headphones aren't top of the line anyway, so the E9 should be just dandy imo. On January 11 2012 12:11 Djzapz wrote: So anyone's got clues for a decent DAC around $100-150? If possible, Digital input and RCA output is good. (USB input is OK) I think we established before that the 'front' jack on your Bravura can serve as a line out. If you want something else... Fiio D3? It can do optical/coax to RCA. And my rant on DACs: the DAC can only be as good as the format of the audio passing through it. It's already damn hard to find music encoded in anything other than 44.1khz, so the DACs that go all the way up to 192khz just seem like marketing fluff to me. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 11 2012 12:56 seiferoth10 wrote: I think we established before that the 'front' jack on your Bravura can serve as a line out. If you want something else... Fiio D3? It can do optical/coax to RCA. Sorry I must have missed that! Are we certain that the front jack can line out? And my rant on DACs: the DAC can only be as good as the format of the audio passing through it. It's already damn hard to find music encoded in anything other than 44.1khz, so the DACs that go all the way up to 192khz just seem like marketing fluff to me. Well presumably they're not all the same O_o | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:29 Djzapz wrote: Sorry I must have missed that! Are we certain that the front jack can line out? Well presumably they're not all the same O_o That's the conclusion I reached after reading Myrmidon's explanation. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On January 11 2012 12:56 seiferoth10 wrote: Well your receiver is already doing the decoding, so I'd just get an amp at that point. All you'd need is a 6.3mm male to male interconnect to go from the headphone jack on the front of the receiver into your headphone amp. As for which amp to get... well that's up to you. A good budget oriented amp for you to test the waters with would be the Fiio E9 (~$110). I don't know that much about more expensive amps to recommend anything better. Your headphones aren't top of the line anyway, so the E9 should be just dandy imo. I disagree about E9 because of the ~10 ohms output impedance, for the HD 598 in particular, which is relatively reactive and has a large impedance hump at around 90 Hz: it's got a huge hump up to like 200 ohms at 90 Hz and 55 ohms elsewhere. It shouldn't be a huge deal, but that's potentially an issue. Since it's cheap, I'd say to just try an E6 just so you know you're dealing with something reasonably competent. If you know the output level of the receiver isn't large and won't clip the E5, get the E5 instead. I would definitely suggest not spending $300 on an amp if you're just going to use those headphones. If you want to spend more, like $100-150, you can also look at the O2: http://www.jdslabs.com/storeAmps.php Note that they don't stock the AC/AC adapter, which is this. On January 11 2012 12:56 seiferoth10 wrote: I think we established before that the 'front' jack on your Bravura can serve as a line out. If you want something else... Fiio D3? It can do optical/coax to RCA. And my rant on DACs: the DAC can only be as good as the format of the audio passing through it. It's already damn hard to find music encoded in anything other than 44.1khz, so the DACs that go all the way up to 192khz just seem like marketing fluff to me. I don't think I've seen any convincing explanation why 44.1 kHz is insufficient anyway. Okay, a higher sampling rate means that it's maybe easier to design a filter for the DAC that doesn't mangle any audible frequencies, so maybe it helps out some practical implementations...very slightly, except that many can do 44.1 kHz almost perfectly anyhow? I think there are some arguments about ultrasonic frequencies you can't hear, somehow influencing your perception regardless, but do they really hold any water? Theoretically 24 bit might be handy for the rare track that's recorded very quietly except for insanely loud peaks, but the 96 dB of dynamic range from 16-bit audio is hardly explored these days anyway. The reasons a lot of music sounds bad or worse than it could be (overproduction, poor recording, poor mastering, loudness wars, etc.) have nothing to do with the 16 bit / 44.1 kHz format. edit: On January 11 2012 13:40 seiferoth10 wrote: That's the conclusion I reached after reading Myrmidon's explanation. Wait, which explanation? x_x | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:51 Myrmidon wrote: Wait, which explanation? x_x It's not the case right? =O | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
What's not the case? Anyway, there should be a couple easy ways to tell if the green jack is line out or not (well to be honest, this is maybe stretching the definition of "line out" but who cares if it all works fine?). Plug some decent low-impedance headphones into them and see if it sounds different than the headphone jack. If it does sound different (different volume counts as different, among other things), it's not passed through the headphone amp, for what that's worth. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
I consider the line out as audio output without any coloration (change in sound signature from the source?), and that opamp used in the 'front' jack is the standard. Yeah? I know that's not the strict definition of line out, but that's what I used in this case. | ||
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diophan
United States1018 Posts
On January 11 2012 12:56 seiferoth10 wrote: And my rant on DACs: the DAC can only be as good as the format of the audio passing through it. It's already damn hard to find music encoded in anything other than 44.1khz, so the DACs that go all the way up to 192khz just seem like marketing fluff to me. 95% of my music is FLAC, and a good chunk of that is SACD FLAC. I'm not going to claim to have most discerning ear in the world, but I can tell the difference in quality between my SACD and regular CD versions of the songs (CD version ripped off the SACD). If you can find a decent private torrent tracker you should be able to get a fair bit of good quality, high kHz music. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On January 11 2012 14:42 seiferoth10 wrote: We established that the front jack doesn't pass by the headphone amp section, and the opamp used is the industry standard and doesn't provide any significant coloration of the sound output from that port. Did I make those logical connections correctly? I consider the line out as audio output without any coloration (change in sound signature from the source?), and that opamp used in the 'front' jack is the standard. Yeah? I see what you mean. I forgot I mentioned some of those things, whoops. I'm taking a little more cautious stance today. Just because the op amp is to the right of the jack doesn't necessarily mean that the output of that op amp is routed to that jack. I didn't look at the PCB traces and those may not be visible anyway. It could be that the output of the op amp we talked about is later sent through the headphone amp to that jack, or that that op amp corresponds to a different channel. So what I mean to say is: (1) in general, a 5532 really shouldn't be changing the sound in an audible way and (2) it's possible that the green jack may not be a true line out (whatever that means in this context) because of some of the things I mentioned above. edit: and theoretically other components on the board could be degrading sound quality as well. People tend to have an op-amp and tube-centric view of audio quality when the layout, circuit design, and other components also matter a whole lot. I would also add that many headphone amplifiers will often NOT color the sound audibly if they are connected to the input of another amplifier, so the distinction between the headphone out and line out is probably not that important anyway. Amplifiers tend to misbehave more when they are asked to output more current. Another amplifier or any other line in connection will generally have high input impedance (10k ohms is typical) and thus the current sourced from the first amplifier will be very small. Thus there is little misbehaving, usually. I = V / Z (current equals voltage divided by impedance). In other words, "double amping" is not ideal but generally not a problem. Sometimes it is. On January 11 2012 14:46 diophan wrote: 95% of my music is FLAC, and a good chunk of that is SACD FLAC. I'm not going to claim to have most discerning ear in the world, but I can tell the difference in quality between my SACD and regular CD versions of the songs (CD version ripped off the SACD). If you can find a decent private torrent tracker you should be able to get a fair bit of good quality, high kHz music. This is with blind testing or not? One issue with SACD is that you can't be certain the CD version on the disc comes from the exact same master as the SACD version. The Meyer and Moran study has been criticized widely in a variety of ways that quite arguably don't amount to much, but it bears reading to those who haven't yet heard of it. It's a pretty easy-to-read, short paper on the audibility of a 16-bit 44.1 kHz A/D -> D/A loop in a very high-quality SACD playback chain. The short story is that they converted SACD audio to standard CD audio quality, and nobody could tell the difference. Overall there were 276 correct answers out of 554 trials, so the detection rate was as good as a coin flip. Details about the setup and listeners are in the paper. http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf | ||
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diophan
United States1018 Posts
On January 11 2012 15:13 Myrmidon wrote: I see what you mean. I forgot I mentioned some of those things, whoops. I'm taking a little more cautious stance today. Just because the op amp is to the right of the jack doesn't necessarily mean that the output of that op amp is routed to that jack. I didn't look at the PCB traces and those may not be visible anyway. It could be that the output of the op amp we talked about is later sent through the headphone amp to that jack, or that that op amp corresponds to a different channel. So what I mean to say is: (1) in general, a 5532 really shouldn't be changing the sound in an audible way and (2) it's possible that the green jack may not be a true line out (whatever that means in this context) because of some of the things I mentioned above. edit: and theoretically other components on the board could be degrading sound quality as well. People tend to have an op-amp and tube-centric view of audio quality when the layout, circuit design, and other components also matter a whole lot. I would also add that many headphone amplifiers will often NOT color the sound audibly if they are connected to the input of another amplifier, so the distinction between the headphone out and line out is probably not that important anyway. Amplifiers tend to misbehave more when they are asked to output more current. Another amplifier or any other line in connection will generally have high input impedance (10k ohms is typical) and thus the current sourced from the first amplifier will be very small. Thus there is little misbehaving, usually. I = V / Z (current equals voltage divided by impedance). In other words, "double amping" is not ideal but generally not a problem. Sometimes it is. This is with blind testing or not? One issue with SACD is that you can't be certain the CD version on the disc comes from the exact same master as the SACD version. The Meyer and Moran study has been criticized widely in a variety of ways that quite arguably don't amount to much, but it bears reading to those who haven't yet heard of it. It's a pretty easy-to-read, short paper on the audibility of a 16-bit 44.1 kHz A/D -> D/A loop in a very high-quality SACD playback chain. The short story is that they converted SACD audio to standard CD audio quality, and nobody could tell the difference. Overall there were 276 correct answers out of 554 trials, so the detection rate was as good as a coin flip. Details about the setup and listeners are in the paper. http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf Yes it was blind testing but I guess I didn't consider what you said about the CD quality being a different recording than the SACD. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On January 11 2012 15:13 Myrmidon wrote: stuff Gahh, it's like you're answering my question by not answering my question. One of the features of the Bravura is that its headphone amp section is independent. The headphone jack gets its own DAC and opamp section separate from the multichannel outs. From the manual: Auzen X-Fi Bravura 7.1 has an independent 1/4" professional headphone output circuitry for the exceptional headphone output performance. Independent 120dB DAC is used for the headphone output (not sharing the channel with the front speaker) and supports up to 192kHz. Featurees Auzentech's proprietary Headphone Amplifier, upgradable OPAMPs, and WIMA film capacitors for the DAC filter. So I took that as none of the other jacks deal with the headphone amp section. As for if that 5532 truly deals with the 'Front' jack, I guess I made some logical assumptions on that conclusion. Because the card featured interchangeable opamps for each jack it would only make sense that the layout of the card yielded the logical configuration of which opamp dealt with which jack. Interchangeable opamps would be pretty useless if you couldn't tell which opamp dealt with which jack, or if it was a giant hassle just to deduce which opamp dealt with which jack. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 11 2012 14:37 Myrmidon wrote: What's not the case? Anyway, there should be a couple easy ways to tell if the green jack is line out or not (well to be honest, this is maybe stretching the definition of "line out" but who cares if it all works fine?). Plug some decent low-impedance headphones into them and see if it sounds different than the headphone jack. If it does sound different (different volume counts as different, among other things), it's not passed through the headphone amp, for what that's worth. I just tested it out - strangely (is it strange?) the headphone amp is much, much quieter than the "front" port with both my HD650's and my IEMs. Seems like it might just be a line out. I figured "front" might be one channel but it's definitely stereo. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Nevermind I'm not thinking straight today. I forgot about the layout and the fact that the op amps were socketed, and that the headphone amp was marketed as being separate. You're right. Also this is pretty much confirmed by Djzapz's result below. By the way, a line out is supposed to not be affected by the volume control (sometimes they call it a line out without it having this property), so if the volume doesn't change if you change the volume control, that would make total sense and also explain why it might be a lot louder than the headphone amp output. | ||
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firefly slo
Slovenia3 Posts
Im looking into headphones Sennheiser PC 360 which are at the top of my list (and at the edge of my budget), and I only have onboard soudcard (dont know which but about 2 years old computer). So I guess I must look into soundcards as well? Or amplifier? I would like to get good sound if Im buying so expensive headphones... BTW, what are your thoughts on new Razers headphones? Timiat 7.1 I belive it is called. I know its not out yet, but still... Thanx for all the help! I did read a loooot of this thread, but Im still not sure what to buy lol | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
On January 11 2012 17:54 firefly slo wrote: Hey everyone! Im looking into headphones Sennheiser PC 360 which are at the top of my list (and at the edge of my budget), and I only have onboard soudcard (dont know which but about 2 years old computer). So I guess I must look into soundcards as well? Or amplifier? I would like to get good sound if Im buying so expensive headphones... BTW, what are your thoughts on new Razers headphones? Timiat 7.1 I belive it is called. I know its not out yet, but still... Thanx for all the help! I did read a loooot of this thread, but Im still not sure what to buy lol I've heard the PC360s are just HD555s (or I guess HD558s now) with a mic attached. There's a 99% chance that your onboard sound has the correct ports for the PC360. The problem is it will be woefully underpowered, and will sound meh (HD55s are decent without amplification last I heard) for music. I can't comment on the Razer headphones, other than my rant that surround sound in headphones is a gigantic scam. Edit: Btw, I hate headsets with a passion. Getting headphones and a separate mic is MUCH better value than having them connected together. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On January 11 2012 16:10 Myrmidon wrote: @seiferoth10: Nevermind I'm not thinking straight today. I forgot about the layout and the fact that the op amps were socketed, and that the headphone amp was marketed as being separate. You're right. Also this is pretty much confirmed by Djzapz's result below. By the way, a line out is supposed to not be affected by the volume control (sometimes they call it a line out without it having this property), so if the volume doesn't change if you change the volume control, that would make total sense and also explain why it might be a lot louder than the headphone amp output. It is affected by volume control. I'll test it out sometime anyway. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Anyway, it should be pretty certain at this point that you can call it a line out. | ||
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