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The whole "land of opportunity" bullshit is really just "land of opportunity, only if you are the top 1% elite of the population. Otherwise, you are going to be paying most of your money to the top 1%".
America has a progressive tax structure. The richest pay the highest effective tax rates, so no, if you are not in the top 1%, you are not paying any money to the top 1%. Also, the median American is wealthier than the median Canadian (and the median European), despite the high levels of inequality. So unless you think Canada is a shithole, it's not bad to be middle-class American.
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To be completely honest the way I look at politics anymore is just voting for whoever seems like they won't screw up worse. I can't remember the last time I actually heard two people I would consider reasonable arguing about some crazy political issue.
If you look at the rally Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert just had in DC it makes a very good point. The people you see on television and getting quoted are the people who have way to much time on their hands, attention seekers, crazies, or people to the extreme right or left.
Your average american has to much going already to really give that much of a care about what the heck is going on with the rest of the nation's minor policies. As long as there's no crazy change for them they arn't going to care that much. We have our own day to day problems.
As for the whole big issues thing thats just a result of these moronic 24 hour news channels that brew fear and sling mud to get viewers. The only reason I ever watch them is because they are on where I eat breakfast occasionally and are funny how serious they take themselves. The majority of the american people are moderate. The people you see on television and freaking out about politics are basically the trolls of america.
Sorry if this has been brought up already I didn't really wanna read 28 full pages before posting.
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On November 05 2010 10:36 McMonty wrote:I view US politics like the good guys(Democrats) VS the bad guys(republicans). I see it like the because the rest of the world uses systems close to what the democrats want, and noone uses the republican system because of how bad it is for the lower and middle class. Pretty much only upper class people control wealth of a nation in those systems. This link shows how top 1% of population controls almost half of all of america's wealth. The whole "land of opportunity" bullshit is really just "land of opportunity, only if you are the top 1% elite of the population. Otherwise, you are going to be paying most of your money to the top 1%". Basically, 80% of the population(4 out of 5 people) in the US only control 7% of the total country's wealth. Ya. So if you are not lucky enough to be the 1 in 5 rich person in the US, you have not excuse for not voting democrat. http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/
The top 1 percent pay almost all of the taxes, they work their asses off, the own businesses, they invest, IE. good for the economy. Just because you give a bunch of free shit to poor lazy people doesn't mean you are helping them in the long run. It just means you are making them dependent on the government. Its like a modern version of slavery, vote for your slaveowner and they will take care of you.
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On November 05 2010 10:30 Scruffy wrote:
Also, do you think the world would be better off today if Japan won WW2? I hope not. I am proud to be an American, and think we have done way more for the world than the ills we have caused, both real and perceived. I chalk up most of the hating to jealousy.
I think the fact that you've basically nested in this thread ready to defend your precious nationalism against anyone even though that's not even the original purpose of this thread is a bigger statement than anything you've said. I don't know who you think you might be impressing or what kind of statement you might be making but it's having the complete opposite effect on everyone reading your terrible posts.
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On November 05 2010 10:41 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:30 Scruffy wrote:
Also, do you think the world would be better off today if Japan won WW2? I hope not. I am proud to be an American, and think we have done way more for the world than the ills we have caused, both real and perceived. I chalk up most of the hating to jealousy. I think the fact that you've basically nested in this thread ready to defend your precious nationalism against anyone even though that's not even the original purpose of this thread is a bigger statement than anything you've said. I don't know who you think you might be impressing or what kind of statement you might be making but it's having the complete opposite effect on everyone reading your terrible posts.
Thats your opinion. Look, I know foreigners are going to hate me, thats just how it goes. I understand that this is an America bashing thread for the most part.
Why don't you argue against my points instead of attacking the poster? Thats what cowards do.
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On November 05 2010 10:40 Scruffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:36 McMonty wrote:I view US politics like the good guys(Democrats) VS the bad guys(republicans). I see it like the because the rest of the world uses systems close to what the democrats want, and noone uses the republican system because of how bad it is for the lower and middle class. Pretty much only upper class people control wealth of a nation in those systems. This link shows how top 1% of population controls almost half of all of america's wealth. The whole "land of opportunity" bullshit is really just "land of opportunity, only if you are the top 1% elite of the population. Otherwise, you are going to be paying most of your money to the top 1%". Basically, 80% of the population(4 out of 5 people) in the US only control 7% of the total country's wealth. Ya. So if you are not lucky enough to be the 1 in 5 rich person in the US, you have not excuse for not voting democrat. http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/ The top 1 percent pay almost all of the taxes, they work their asses off, the own businesses, they invest, IE. good for the economy. Just because you give a bunch of free shit to poor lazy people doesn't mean you are helping them in the long run. It just means you are making them dependent on the government. Its like a modern version of slavery, vote for your slaveowner and they will take care of you.
I really hope you're being sarcastic. This is pretty stupid, even for a libertarian. A guy making 10 million dollars a year is not in "modern day slavery" because he gives 3 million of that to the government, especially since many years ago he would have been paying a lotttt more than that. And do you seriously believe that poor people are only poor because they are stupid and lazy? That is the single fucking stupidest thing I've ever heard. People like you are why other countries make fun of us.
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On November 05 2010 10:40 Scruffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:36 McMonty wrote:I view US politics like the good guys(Democrats) VS the bad guys(republicans). I see it like the because the rest of the world uses systems close to what the democrats want, and noone uses the republican system because of how bad it is for the lower and middle class. Pretty much only upper class people control wealth of a nation in those systems. This link shows how top 1% of population controls almost half of all of america's wealth. The whole "land of opportunity" bullshit is really just "land of opportunity, only if you are the top 1% elite of the population. Otherwise, you are going to be paying most of your money to the top 1%". Basically, 80% of the population(4 out of 5 people) in the US only control 7% of the total country's wealth. Ya. So if you are not lucky enough to be the 1 in 5 rich person in the US, you have not excuse for not voting democrat. http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/ The top 1 percent pay almost all of the taxes, they work their asses off, the own businesses, they invest, IE. good for the economy. Just because you give a bunch of free shit to poor lazy people doesn't mean you are helping them in the long run. It just means you are making them dependent on the government. Its like a modern version of slavery, vote for your slaveowner and they will take care of you.
So wait, Are you saying that 80% or the population is poor lazy people? no im sure that you are not. In fact, most of those "poor lazy people" work 40 hour weeks. Sure they dont invest, but they dont have any money to invest so thats not their fault. My point was that 80% of people control 7% of wealth, but probably do almost 50% of the work. So they work hard for significantly less. Im not talking about homeless people here. Im talking about 80% of the population. This 80% being anything middle class and below.
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On November 05 2010 10:47 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 10:40 Scruffy wrote:On November 05 2010 10:36 McMonty wrote:I view US politics like the good guys(Democrats) VS the bad guys(republicans). I see it like the because the rest of the world uses systems close to what the democrats want, and noone uses the republican system because of how bad it is for the lower and middle class. Pretty much only upper class people control wealth of a nation in those systems. This link shows how top 1% of population controls almost half of all of america's wealth. The whole "land of opportunity" bullshit is really just "land of opportunity, only if you are the top 1% elite of the population. Otherwise, you are going to be paying most of your money to the top 1%". Basically, 80% of the population(4 out of 5 people) in the US only control 7% of the total country's wealth. Ya. So if you are not lucky enough to be the 1 in 5 rich person in the US, you have not excuse for not voting democrat. http://www.mybudget360.com/top-1-percent-control-42-percent-of-financial-wealth-in-the-us-how-average-americans-are-lured-into-debt-servitude-by-promises-of-mega-wealth/ The top 1 percent pay almost all of the taxes, they work their asses off, the own businesses, they invest, IE. good for the economy. Just because you give a bunch of free shit to poor lazy people doesn't mean you are helping them in the long run. It just means you are making them dependent on the government. Its like a modern version of slavery, vote for your slaveowner and they will take care of you. I really hope you're being sarcastic. This is pretty stupid, even for a libertarian. A guy making 10 million dollars a year is not in "modern day slavery" because he gives 3 million of that to the government, especially since many years ago he would have been paying a lotttt more than that. And do you seriously believe that poor people are only poor because they are stupid and lazy? That is the single fucking stupidest thing I've ever heard. People like you are why other countries make fun of us.
If you had read what I posted, and not what you wanted to see, you would have seen that I was talking about poor people.
"Just because you give a bunch of free shit to poor lazy people doesn't mean you are helping them in the long run. It just means you are making them dependent on the government. Its like a modern version of slavery, vote for your slaveowner and they will take care of you."
Are you serious?
And about the poor thing. Some people are obviously not blessed to be smart enough to take care of themselves. I am all about helping them. I am talking about people like a woman in my hometown that tried to kill herself and her own two children because her welfare ran out. And yes, if you are actually dumb AND lazy, you are pretty much screwed money wise. But i did not say that anyone is, just saying if they are.
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On November 05 2010 10:34 domovoi wrote:
The sad truth is that Europeans judge Americans by its absurd political campaign arena, which although is a very vocal and exhibitionist part of American culture, is not of much importance. What better represents America are its industries and its artistic culture, which Europeans undoubtedly respect.
When Americans think of Germany, they think nice cars. When Germans think of Americans, they think idiot politicians, rather than iPhones.
It's a little odd!
Americans do know a lot about german politics then, but choose to focus on the nice cars. That's very kind of you.
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On November 05 2010 10:45 Scruffy wrote:
Thats your opinion. Look, I know foreigners are going to hate me, thats just how it goes. I understand that this is an America bashing thread for the most part.
Why don't you argue against my points instead of attacking the poster? Thats what cowards do.
"I know foreigners are going to hate me"? What does that even mean? What, is that your attempt at an excuse for how awful and nonconstructive your posts are? Would you take seriously someone from the KKK saying "Look, I know black people are going to hate me, that's just how it goes"? What were you even trying to say with this statement? That you don't care what other people think? Obviously you do or you wouldn't be in this thread with your finger hovering over the F5 key ready to defend anything remotely America-related. What, were you trying to impress me with your emotional fortitude? Mission failed, because all that did was make you look simple-minded and childish.
And the reason why I'm not arguing against your points is because you don't have any actual points, just talking points and emotional rhetoric like "without us, JAPAN WOULD RULE THE WORLD." and "people only criticize America because they're JEALOUS". And if you understand that this is an America bashing thread, then why read it? What, are you trying to change people's minds away from bashing America? Do you seriously think you'd be able to do that with any of these posts? Or are you trying to intimidate all the non-Americans by showing them just how much an American cares about what they're saying on the internet? The ironic part is there are plenty of people doing quite an adequate job defending America in this thread like domovoi and all you're doing is ruining their efforts by undermining the credibility of all Americans with each of your posts.
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On November 05 2010 06:50 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 06:06 KwarK wrote:
I find it absurd to the point of amusement until I remember the global position of the US and then I die a little inside. The importance of religion in American politics (how is abortion an important issue for anyone anywhere ever?!?!?!) and a Cold War fear of socialism are rather quaint from a European perspective. How does abrtion have anything to do with religion? I am against abortion and i'm not religious. I feel like it is murder.
Because regulated murder (of someone in a group that you or your associates could not possibly become a part of) is an issue of purely religious significance.
That is the reason that adults outlaw other parents abusing their own children. It provides no protection or benefit for the adults at all (other than the trouble of euthanizing a psychotic child).
It is because they believe the child is equal to themselves in terms of treatment deserved (although not capability). What treatment something 'deserves' is a purely religious issue.
Same as why white individuals without nonwhite friends might outlaw racial slavery.
You could have the economic reason (slaves will take my job)
You could have a security reason (afraid of a slave revolt)
or you could believe that the slave of a different race Should be treated equally to you.
While the Holocaust was an ineffective war strategy, it was also wrong.
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I find it hilarious how political parties have created such a divide among the populous. For christ's sake, your founding fathers were opposed to political parties since the beginning of time. Time for a reform of the Legislative process perhaps?
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European countries differs quite alot amongst themselves too in terms of income and such.
Personally in sweden and the other nordic countries atleast, we have a pretty good way of life and taxes are high but I don't mind since it pays healthcare, higher education and social security etc for everyone regardless of income or background.
I got this view of US as being a 'hostile' place to live in as everything appears to depend on your salary and there just isn't any social security like in sweden. I gladly pay taxes for this, it leaves me with alot of money left anyway and those more unfortunate who actually needs it more than I do gets their share too. Of course it shouldn't go too far but its pretty fair the way things are now.
I don't see how things like free healthcare and education can be a bad thing; yes you pay higher taxes but so what? I can afford whatever I want to do anyway. I think this mentality that "why should I pay for my neighbour Joe's medical bill or education?" is the exact reason I wouldn't want to live in US.
That said I doubt you can actually implement this social security considering US has like what, 300 million people while sweden has around 9 million; any nation-wide change would probably be too difficult to implement.
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Alright thread. Too many Americans on it though or rather too many conservatives busy defending real america. It's interesting to listen to what other people think... however "right" or "wrong" their analysis is.
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On November 05 2010 10:48 McMonty wrote:
So wait, Are you saying that 80% or the population is poor lazy people? no im sure that you are not. In fact, most of those "poor lazy people" work 40 hour weeks. Sure they dont invest, but they dont have any money to invest so thats not their fault. My point was that 80% of people control 7% of wealth, but probably do almost 50% of the work. So they work hard for significantly less. Im not talking about homeless people here. Im talking about 80% of the population. This 80% being anything middle class and below.
This thread in general, and this post in particular, is an amazing example of how people have somehow reversed the burden of proof with regards to wealth distribution.
It is not necessary for me to establish that the 80% of the people who control 7% of the wealth "deserve" to control only that much. That is a wealth distribution that demonstrably arose from voluntary transactions. If you think that for some reason that 80% deserve a different proportion of the wealth, the burden of proof is on you to show why.
The 20% of people who control (apparently) 93% of the wealth are invariably:
1) In possession of a very rare skill (or combination of skills) that is in high demand
2) Lucky as all fuck
3) Both of the above
4) Descended from someone who was one of the above
With the exception of 2), you really cant justify wealth redistribution on ethical grounds, and trying to identify who got lucky is pretty ridiculous.
On November 05 2010 10:47 iamho wrote:
I really hope you're being sarcastic. This is pretty stupid, even for a libertarian. A guy making 10 million dollars a year is not in "modern day slavery" because he gives 3 million of that to the government, especially since many years ago he would have been paying a lotttt more than that.
This is not an argument. It is completely irrelevant that he would have paid more before to the question of whether its analogous to slavery. In fact, income taxation is almost precisely identical to forced labor (whether you want to call that slavery or not is a different matter, I guess) - the market sets the value for your labor, you perform your labor, and the government takes some of that labor-generated value by force.
In part, this can actually be justified (vaguely, at least) on practical grounds, if not on ethical grounds - but its pretty much no longer a point of contention that the analogy holds.
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Most people here in Mexico think the US political system is unfair, and does not really represent the will of Americans.
For example, we think the way you choose your president is crap, with the points system, the majority of Americans could vote for candidate A, but because Dude B got more points, he won. That is just stupid.
Of course we're not better down here, or anywhere else in the world...
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On November 05 2010 09:14 Klimpen wrote:
The biggest thing which boggles my mind when it comes to politics in America, is the fact you're still running a two party, first past the post system. That you've got Fiscal Conservatives, Libertarians and Tea Party all under one banner boggles my mind. The ideologies are just so different.
A multi-party representative system is just plain better.
I couldn't agree more and this frustrates me a lot. Most of the time I feel that my vote is wasted on a third party or that I have to pick party "X" because they're the "closest" to my idealogy when in reality 50% or more of they stuff they do straight up pisses me off.
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i think the biggest difference between Uk and US politics is this.....
In the UK, being overtly religious is a bad thing (in politics and often in every day life in general), only really openly religious MP's etc are Muslim. Tony Blair didn't talk about being catholic until after he left UK politics, this is the trend with politicians.... many are religious.... they just don't talk about it. You are unlikely to become Prime Minister if you are overtly religious.
In the US, you basically can't get elected in many places and defo couldn't become president if you are not a christian. Look at obama... he is "christian" and gets the right wing call him muslim.... like that makes him somehow unworthy to be President. The US was founded on religious freedom yet your politics is held hostage by Christian bible bashers. The country founded on freedom, with seperation of church and state as one of it founding principles is far more oppressive of other religions than the rest of the western world when it comes to politics.
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On November 05 2010 03:47 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 02:49 Rashia wrote:
4. Your president has to believe in the Christian god (or never be elected), which makes you as good as Israel or Palestine.
This is the part that most disgust me. I think it can be applied not only for USA but a lot more countries, if not all countries. Picture a country where Christianity is the religion of the majority of the population, if you are not Christian and believe in other God or dont believe in this bullshit at all, the other party will exploit it and cast on the christian population all the fear they can of having a president that isnt a believer. You will lose a lot of votes just based on your religion. Thats just plain ridiculous.
Thankfully in Australia all you need to do is follow a football team :D
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Bread and circuses... same as politics everywhere, just a bit more over the top. Democracy will be the ruination of modern society.
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EPT
