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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
We call this, the GoldBloom Effect + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.realone.com/assets/cs/905/00963905.jpg) /sarcasm Yeh its messed up. The thing I am most interested in is Gibbs, for some reason I feel he could be a involved in Afghan opium trade and maybe killing people for that reason. That or he is just crazy. But unless he got ahold of military opiates I would look into Gibbs being involved with organized crime. I mean he already had hashish which isn't from the military obviously and I assume the opiates are from Afghan as well. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 28 2010 12:31 EleanorRIgby wrote: why do i only hear US soldiers doing these things probably because the US media makes a big deal out of EVERYTHING Well a few reasons include there are more US soldiers serving overseas in combat roles than there are for probably any other country, maybe all of them put together. These things occur all the time by UN peacekeepers from probably all nations (the rate of rapes, for example, is higher for UN peacekeepers than US troops). Also, the US military is a lot bigger so there are people in it for a lot of reasons, even if the military is not something they are most interested in (whereas, if you are in the French military, for example, it's probably because you are very interested in being in a military, not just getting out of student debt or such). | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:06 blitzkrieger wrote: These soldiers did bad things. These soldiers were American. America is bad. My country did not do these things. My country is better than America. I am better than America! I will show my distaste for America on a forum. We call this, the GoldBloom Effect + Show Spoiler + /sarcasm Yeh its messed up. The thing I am most interested in is Gibbs, for some reason I feel he could be a involved in Afghan opium trade and maybe killing people for that reason. That or he is just crazy. But unless he got ahold of military opiates I would look into Gibbs being involved with organized crime. I mean he already had hashish which isn't from the military obviously and I assume the opiates are from Afghan as well. I love Goldblum. Why are you calling this the Goldblum effect? I will admit that your phrasing seemed like something a character of his would say, but only in the timing not in the content. I've never heard of the Slippery Slope fallacy being called the "Goldblum Effect" and Google concurs with me so who is the "we" that calls this the GoldBloom effect? | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On September 28 2010 13:41 Elegy wrote: im not sure you can shrug it off so easily with that very comfortable assumption. do you have looked into actual numbers of occurance of such cases of misconduct in relation to troop strength there? to me it seems that the number we see is greater than what can be explained merely by that ratio alone.With the sheer amount of both slightly unstable and also perfectly normal people that join the military, a very tiny amount of them will inevitably crack and break under the pressure they're in. And because the USA provides the vast majority of manpower to the conflict, the statistical chance that Americans would do this is simply that much more likely. It's sad, it's disappointing, and it's tragic, but it was bound to happen given the number of people involved in the conflict and the extreme stress they are put under. On another note, US Army infantry branch is the hardest after MI to get into (for officers) first off id like to see the argument that establishes that being cautious and not trusting the ones holding power blindly can be more harmful than unjustified murder and abuse of said power.. or it was a year or so ago An important thing to take from this is not to associate the actions of a few rogue soldiers who cracked with the US military as a whole. To do so is arguably a greater wrong than the deaths of these people secondly it really isnt "a few rogue soldiers". there are many of such cases and even cases previously having been endorsed by your government. need i mention torture or other forms of prisoner abuse? | ||
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NeCroPoTeNce
United States513 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 28 2010 13:49 nard wrote: No. Nearly 70% of the currently employed soldiers are private contractors. Most of the soldiers are not fighting for the illusion of bringing democracy but for their paychecks. Source please? Also "While 70 percent of contractors and 93 percent of private security contractors in Afghanistan are Afghan nationals." So this 70% isn't made up of British and French and whatnot that are supposed to be so much better behaved on average, it's made up of Afghani troops. By the way, a lot of people seem to have the idea that Afghanistan was peaceful and it was upset by the US invasion. Afghanistan has been in a state of civil war for decades. 10,000 people died in combat in Afghanistan the year before the US arrived. Every year since the US arrived, less than 10,000 people have been killed. Just a couple years later it was down to 4,000. This past year has been the worst year since US troops arrived and it reached 7,000. It will probably be above 10,000 the year after the US leaves, assuming they leave soon. source | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:16 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: Source please? Also "While 70 percent of contractors and 93 percent of private security contractors in Afghanistan are Afghan nationals." So this 70% isn't made up of British and French and whatnot that are supposed to be so much better behaved on average, it's made up of Afghani troops. By the way, a lot of people seem to have the idea that Afghanistan was peaceful and it was upset by the US invasion. Afghanistan has been in a state of civil war for decades. 10,000 people died in combat in Afghanistan the year before the US arrived. Every year since the US arrived, less than 10,000 people have been killed. Just a couple years later it was down to 4,000. This past year has been the worst year since US troops arrived and it reached 7,000. It will probably be above 10,000 the year after the US leaves, assuming they leave soon. thats why i seriously hope that they will not leave and make it a second vietnam. it isnt just any civil war (if that wouldnt be bad enough already) but one side are militant religious fundamentalists oppressing the population with force based on shariah law, hacking, slashing, and pouring acid over the face of people whereever they see fit. the us(military) certainly is very far off from being the best role model you can get, but they are still 100x more bearable than that stoneage mentality. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On September 28 2010 09:45 sob3k wrote: Sure, its bad, but is anyone really shocked at this? How could you be? Over a million US troops have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in a hostile war situation. Some of them are bound to be crazy or break under the pressure. They are all carrying enough weapons to kill hundreds of people, so when someone does have a meltdown its extremely likely to be serious. We should do all we can to prevent event like this occurring, but to be honest they are completely inevitable in a situation such as this and shouldn't lower your respect for soldiers of either side any more than some wacko shooting people in a mall lowers your respect for the rest of the public. Pretty good word Sob3k. This is war people, it ain't all sunshine and butterflies like the news makes it out to be. Chances are, your life, with all its worries, concerns, stresses, and difficulties, isn't nearly as difficult as the life of a soldier overseas. Until you're put under that kind of pressure, don't be so convinced of your own morality. It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. | ||
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Jank
United States308 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:24 danl9rm wrote: Pretty good word Sob3k. This is war people, it ain't all sunshine and butterflies like the news makes it out to be. Chances are, your life, with all its worries, concerns, stresses, and difficulties, isn't nearly as difficult as the life of a soldier overseas. Until you're put under that kind of pressure, don't be so convinced of your own morality. It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. They're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff? Really? I'm pretty sure its our presence in the middle east that provokes attacks not the other way around... | ||
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enzym
Germany1034 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:24 danl9rm wrote: Pretty good word Sob3k. This is war people, it ain't all sunshine and butterflies like the news makes it out to be. Chances are, your life, with all its worries, concerns, stresses, and difficulties, isn't nearly as difficult as the life of a soldier overseas. Until you're put under that kind of pressure, don't be so convinced of your own morality. It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. there is no proof at all that the activities of the united states military in the middle east have improved your national security. in fact it could be argued that they made the threats worse, also by acts described in the op, as it certainly hasnt made you very popular internationally. that aside war is no excuse for things like that to happen, and there should never be any. you have the duty to respect other peoples rights especially in war because war is something that enables a lot more harm to be done. you are even more obliged to not lose sight of your moral highground if that war is fought in the name of freedom and liberty and the rights of people. e: typo | ||
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Jank
United States308 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:30 enzym wrote: there is no proof at all that the activities of the united states military int he middle east have improved your national security. in fact it could be argued that they made the threats worse, also by acts described in the op, as it certainly hasnt made you very popular internationally. that aside war is no excuse for things like that to happen, and there should never be any. you have the duty respect other peoples rights especially in war because war is something than enables a lot more harm to be done. you are even more obliged to not lose sight of your moral highground if that war is fought in the name of freedom and liberty and the rights of people. hear hear | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:09 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: I love Goldblum. Why are you calling this the Goldblum effect? I will admit that your phrasing seemed like something a character of his would say, but only in the timing not in the content. I've never heard of the Slippery Slope fallacy being called the "Goldblum Effect" and Google concurs with me so who is the "we" that calls this the GoldBloom effect? Oh its blum not bloom... its a quote from Jurassic Park that was used in SouthPark. Its not an attack of Goldblum but who is gonna know who Ian Malcolm is... Here's one example: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153995 You can watch every south park episode legally here, S7:Cancelled http://www.southparkstudios.com/ | ||
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splcer
United States166 Posts
On September 28 2010 09:43 Whiladan wrote: By all means, disrespect the ones responsible. But you generalizing that all U.S. troops are scumbags is the same brand of discrimination that these war-criminals use to generalize that all Arabs are terrorists. Ya u cant break a stereotype while stereotyping another group of people without being a hypocrite (at least to certain people, some people will believe just about anything) | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:04 Pyrrhuloxia wrote: 3 murders = 100,000-200,00 murders, 20,000-60,000 rapes, etc. ? I believe your math may be inaccurate. You didn't account for the "American" variable where everything get blown out of proportion. I like to think tis b/c we are so much better than everyone else that when we make a small mistake its huge, because Americans are so superior in every way shape and form that any problem is HUGE. So thank you rest of the world, we Americans sure are great and you should hold us to the highest standards, since again, we are the best country on Earth and it should not be tolerated that the great Americans should be held to regular human standards. (this was sarcastic) | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On September 28 2010 14:30 enzym wrote: that aside war is no excuse for things like that to happen, and there should never be any. you have the duty to respect other peoples rights especially in war because war is something that enables a lot more harm to be done. you are even more obliged to not lose sight of your moral highground if that war is fought in the name of freedom and liberty and the rights of people. This is an unrealistic expectation of everyone in a deep combat setting. What they did was terrible, but you simply cannot put yourself in the shoes of someone entrenched in combat and expect to understand their thoughts and feelings, if you've never done it yourself. Furthermore, you can't hold them to the standards of civilian life; they aren't a part of civilian life. Most "handle" it better than these people did, but mostly that just means suppressing it better. It's a position that requires dehumanization and that is a truly awful thing. It also requires a level of stress and sleeplessness most of us can't understand, as well as extreme sensory overload from amphetamines, loud blasts, bright flashes, etc. Some of the airmen dropping napalm over Vietnam say they were mesmerized, almost entranced, by the liquid glow. It's surreal, and at the other end an unfortunate soul is being ended. The people above them need to set a culture to avoid/punish for this. But calling people bad apples, which is what often happens, accomplishes nothing. Even in the best culture, as long as you're in that setting for a long enough time, something is going to snap. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30748260/ | ||
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Ciryandor
United States3735 Posts
Still, this is despicable for them to have actually done this. | ||
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On September 28 2010 15:37 5unrise wrote: I find it quite despicable how so many Americans in this thread are trying to defend the US military in spite of what happened, and to brush aside all criticism at US personnel. Just pathetic really. People are simply making statements such as: A) this is not an indication that "American on whole is evil" B) it's bad, sure, but it's also a product of media sensationalism C) people don't realize how frequently this happens in war No one is saying "this is good" or "this shouldn't be fixed." | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On September 28 2010 09:23 seRapH wrote: wtf. if this shit is real then this is like rape of nanking all over again. bullshit. This is bad but please don't compare it to the Rape of Nanjing. It's not even close to the same degree of mass murder... And the Rape of Nanjing was a systemic slaughter of civilians, ordered by the Japanese leadership. Very different from this case, where a few rogue soldiers committed grisly deeds of their own volition. While the outcomes may be similar, the chain of events leading up to those outcomes make a big difference. P.S. I truly believe the only "solution" to this sort of problem is... ROBOT ARMIES. Flying drone armies, tracked robots on the ground, remote controlled vehicles, all of these culminating in a US military RTS game where Idra will keep all our children safe as champion of the free world. See, that way, all we have to do is keep a few super-nerds from going postal, rather than worrying about hundreds of thousands of dudes crawling around on the ground getting up to who knows what kind of trouble. | ||
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