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Personal attacks and off-topics arguments won't be tolerated. Report posters that break the rules, instead of responding to them. |
On September 29 2010 05:22 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 14:26 Therapy wrote:On September 28 2010 14:24 danl9rm wrote:On September 28 2010 09:45 sob3k wrote:
Sure, its bad, but is anyone really shocked at this? How could you be?
Over a million US troops have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in a hostile war situation. Some of them are bound to be crazy or break under the pressure. They are all carrying enough weapons to kill hundreds of people, so when someone does have a meltdown its extremely likely to be serious.
We should do all we can to prevent event like this occurring, but to be honest they are completely inevitable in a situation such as this and shouldn't lower your respect for soldiers of either side any more than some wacko shooting people in a mall lowers your respect for the rest of the public. Pretty good word Sob3k. This is war people, it ain't all sunshine and butterflies like the news makes it out to be. Chances are, your life, with all its worries, concerns, stresses, and difficulties, isn't nearly as difficult as the life of a soldier overseas. Until you're put under that kind of pressure, don't be so convinced of your own morality. It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. They're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff? Really? I'm pretty sure its our presence in the middle east that provokes attacks not the other way around... Who said anything about our presence in the middle east? Way to read. Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 14:30 enzym wrote:On September 28 2010 14:24 danl9rm wrote:On September 28 2010 09:45 sob3k wrote:
Sure, its bad, but is anyone really shocked at this? How could you be?
Over a million US troops have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan in a hostile war situation. Some of them are bound to be crazy or break under the pressure. They are all carrying enough weapons to kill hundreds of people, so when someone does have a meltdown its extremely likely to be serious.
We should do all we can to prevent event like this occurring, but to be honest they are completely inevitable in a situation such as this and shouldn't lower your respect for soldiers of either side any more than some wacko shooting people in a mall lowers your respect for the rest of the public. Pretty good word Sob3k. This is war people, it ain't all sunshine and butterflies like the news makes it out to be. Chances are, your life, with all its worries, concerns, stresses, and difficulties, isn't nearly as difficult as the life of a soldier overseas. Until you're put under that kind of pressure, don't be so convinced of your own morality. It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. there is no proof at all that the activities of the united states military in the middle east have improved your national security. in fact it could be argued that they made the threats worse, also by acts described in the op, as it certainly hasnt made you very popular internationally. that aside war is no excuse for things like that to happen, and there should never be any. you have the duty to respect other peoples rights especially in war because war is something that enables a lot more harm to be done. you are even more obliged to not lose sight of your moral highground if that war is fought in the name of freedom and liberty and the rights of people. e: typo Who claimed that there was? Way to read.
what? iraq=middle east, isarel=supported by usa=middle east, afghanistan=borders to iran=middle east, well, close enough to not throw it out of the window in context of this thread. i dont understand why the wording gives you so much problems, please explain! what else are we talking about in your opinion if not that?
edit: it think i see it now. you mean to say that nobody in this thread said anything about the military presence making your life safer. but:
On September 28 2010 14:24 danl9rm wrote:
It was wrong, and they should be convicted, but let's not get all high and mighty stateside where we're not worried every car we pass has a bomb in it. Remember, they're the reason we don't have to worry about that stuff. it even looks like your very own words to me. additionally to that i also mentioned it because "it makes us safer" is something that is frequently brought up by american politicians and heard on american media.
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On September 29 2010 05:13 infecteddna wrote:
Most of them joined because they saw no other option and needed what little monetary compensation would be provided, and mostly stayed for the feeling of power; being untouchable wolves among sheep. These did not care for what took place and what did not, and they almost unanimously loathed and despised the common folk for being weak and wretched. At official notice, most would not hesitate to dispatch of every single one, what many among them overtly jested would be the prudent course of action anyway. But they were largely followers, believing to be there due to circumstances outside their control, and thus not overly motivated except in matters pertaining to them keeping or improving their position in the general hierarchy.
Some were sadistic degenerates who joined to fulfill their evil desires without repercussion. For some of them, their service provided sufficient outlet; others went above and beyond the call of duty. These few were the cause of terrible tragedies, where the truly innocent were murdered.
But there were also those who joined not because of need or malice, but purely out of personal conviction. They knew their faith made them better than most in the service, and they held but utter contempt for the corrupt few who abused their authority to satiate their dark hunger with the blood of innocents. They kept the divine purpose of the mission always shining brightly in their hearts, especially when they mercifully brought the torch to yet another pyre of sinners, knowing they are saving their immortal souls from eternal torment in the abyss.
And despite this, because the media only reports this type of shit to the public, and never the story of the typical Soldier/Marine/Sailor/Airman, the general public only learns that the military does shit like this, abuses prisoners, raping civilians, all other sorts of WAR CRIMES when that's far less than 1%. Hell, you don't even get this kind of report that often, yet we're generalized into the psychotic killer mindframe by everyone.
For those of you in high school, look at your class. Someone will probably enlist for reasons outside of their control. That person might be the next one to pull this kind of shit to put them in the spotlight. Can you imagine anyone in your class doing that? It could happen. Now further imagine that person went off into a shooting rampage and suddenly you're held accountable because "You could have done something". THAT'S what military personnel are going through. We are being held accountable for someone we probably have never met, because we are generalized into these sorts of categories.
Why should I, as an Airman, assume that anyone in my workspace would pull something so inhumane? Last I checked, despite being in the military, I am still a person, and getting put in the same group (therefore, treated), like the maniacs that lose their mind in an ACTUAL COMBAT ZONE, just because I'm military. That's like getting put in the same group as the guy that went on a shooting rampage, because you were in the same class.
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Why the fck people are talking about stability in Iraq? Do you like Iraq so much? I lol very hard every time I see an American talking about stability and democracy in Iraq like it is their business and they did it to help people  Every living creature even soulles ROCKS know why US is in ME. Stabilty, democracy, WMDs etc, ----- pleaseee.
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On September 29 2010 03:34 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Seriously though, this is not a US only thing. This is a HUMAN thing.
HUMANS are evil little bastards and smoking opium everyday coming from being a good kid in the states will mess up your brain pretty good.
I mean look through history, Christians have committed some of the greatest crimes against humanity in the name of GOD, but most people dont think of them as evil, even though all religious people are evil and ignorant...but thats another topic.
This one, although sad yes, is everyday occurrences around the globe.
Like Africa, that place is straight fucked, be glad you're not there and a few dumbass soldiers is all you need worry about for now.
Yeah, that's why atheists have killed more people in the past 100 years then any other religion combined, right?
On September 29 2010 04:12 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 09:42 Diuqil wrote:On September 28 2010 09:30 Whiladan wrote:On September 28 2010 09:28 Diuqil wrote:
Wow. My respect for U.S Soldiers gets lower and lower every day. Because all U.S. soldiers must be just like these ones. Generalizing is fun. When you hear of so many story's like these, you think I'm going to like them? You know, these arabs rammed a few planes into these tall buildings into the US once, and now I kind of hate them all. Same dumb logic, different topic.
Arabs did do that, but they weren't the ones behind it.
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really what's the point to say again all those cliche words "omg how horrible, murderers" etc etc when that have happened before plenty of times.
Since people are not able to choose a single government who will drag to trials by force if it's necessary anyone who is responsible for those crimes against humanity, since there is not a single member of international criminal court who will react even to this late time then any other discussion tends to be hypocritical....
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Would all of your reaction be the same if it was Afghanstian soldiers killing US civilians for fun?
Would all of you just say, "oh humanity sucks"
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On September 29 2010 05:49 Diuqil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 03:34 N3rV[Green] wrote:
Seriously though, this is not a US only thing. This is a HUMAN thing.
HUMANS are evil little bastards and smoking opium everyday coming from being a good kid in the states will mess up your brain pretty good.
I mean look through history, Christians have committed some of the greatest crimes against humanity in the name of GOD, but most people dont think of them as evil, even though all religious people are evil and ignorant...but thats another topic.
This one, although sad yes, is everyday occurrences around the globe.
Like Africa, that place is straight fucked, be glad you're not there and a few dumbass soldiers is all you need worry about for now. Yeah, that's why atheists have killed more people in the past 100 years then any other religion combined, right?
did they also do that because of or in the name of atheism? did atheism demand them to do it like religious books do? the answer, at least to the latter, is no, because atheism is nothing other than the rjection of belief in a god. but lets not derail the thread please. this is not about religion.
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Yeah, that's why atheists have killed more people in the past 100 years then any other religion combined, right?
## please.
Unless you can somehow equivocate that people starving because of poor management and greed equals genocide. Then Christianity killed half of Western Europe.
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On September 29 2010 05:43 piroko139 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 05:13 infecteddna wrote:
Most of them joined because they saw no other option and needed what little monetary compensation would be provided, and mostly stayed for the feeling of power; being untouchable wolves among sheep. These did not care for what took place and what did not, and they almost unanimously loathed and despised the common folk for being weak and wretched. At official notice, most would not hesitate to dispatch of every single one, what many among them overtly jested would be the prudent course of action anyway. But they were largely followers, believing to be there due to circumstances outside their control, and thus not overly motivated except in matters pertaining to them keeping or improving their position in the general hierarchy.
Some were sadistic degenerates who joined to fulfill their evil desires without repercussion. For some of them, their service provided sufficient outlet; others went above and beyond the call of duty. These few were the cause of terrible tragedies, where the truly innocent were murdered.
But there were also those who joined not because of need or malice, but purely out of personal conviction. They knew their faith made them better than most in the service, and they held but utter contempt for the corrupt few who abused their authority to satiate their dark hunger with the blood of innocents. They kept the divine purpose of the mission always shining brightly in their hearts, especially when they mercifully brought the torch to yet another pyre of sinners, knowing they are saving their immortal souls from eternal torment in the abyss. And despite this, because the media only reports this type of shit to the public, and never the story of the typical Soldier/Marine/Sailor/Airman, the general public only learns that the military does shit like this, abuses prisoners, raping civilians, all other sorts of WAR CRIMES when that's far less than 1%. Hell, you don't even get this kind of report that often, yet we're generalized into the psychotic killer mindframe by everyone. For those of you in high school, look at your class. Someone will probably enlist for reasons outside of their control. That person might be the next one to pull this kind of shit to put them in the spotlight. Can you imagine anyone in your class doing that? It could happen. Now further imagine that person went off into a shooting rampage and suddenly you're held accountable because "You could have done something". THAT'S what military personnel are going through. We are being held accountable for someone we probably have never met, because we are generalized into these sorts of categories. Why should I, as an Airman, assume that anyone in my workspace would pull something so inhumane? Last I checked, despite being in the military, I am still a person, and getting put in the same group (therefore, treated), like the maniacs that lose their mind in an ACTUAL COMBAT ZONE, just because I'm military. That's like getting put in the same group as the guy that went on a shooting rampage, because you were in the same class.
It doesn't matter, because its everyone in the military is part of the same organization (DoD). If just one person fucks up, it makes the entire group look like shit. This is true in all aspects of life, it may not be fair, but that's how it goes, especially so in the military. Granted, American media sensationalizing shit like this just adds fuel to the fire, but the fact remains there are still incidents like this that occur every now and then.
Also, the amount of military hate in this thread is disgusting.
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Messed up indeed, and it always will be, but every ISAF-unit have elements like these. It`s not just U.S soldiers, and that fact is important to remember.
Norwegian soldiers are getting shit in the media these days because our Leutenents and Captains dress up in viking gear, making war-cries like "To Walhalla" and calling afghan`s "prey". These actions represent a very primitive mindset regarding what our "peacekeeping" operation is all about. This is not single individuals with a meltdown, its what is referred to within the military as troop morale, looked upon as a necessity, and maybe sometimes a humerous one. Add this with the fact that all soldiers in the western invasion force have to have a mindset that tells them to get excited, and not depressed, when killing an afghan, and you have modern warfare as it is. And as far as i can see, these things will not be changed, due to the two words that are "troop morale". Those that loose troop morale, well, they fall back, drop out, wants to go home, and is at a high risk of performing suicide. Call it decivilization of the mind, or dehumanitation or whatever, but it is a prerequesite for beeing a soldier in a war. And thats because wars are brutal.
So, its not U.S soldiers beeing rabid blind killers, it is the way of war. A war lead by the U.S government, with the approval of the U.S population, because of a terrorist attack, allegedly performed by a guy that lived (at the time), in a totally non-involved country. And still does, 9 years after. Now go ponder on that one.
And on a sidenote, Norway will keep giving the people orchestrating these scemes the Nobel Peace Price, just so you all know that we are a peaceloving and caring people and nation, with oil and weapon sales just as a little thing on the side.
Thank you.
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This happens frequently in war.
That fact is not justification, nor does it mean that one should not be affected by its happening. It does mean that one should use it as a strong reminder that the nation as a whole should not be entering into these needless wars, which have no discernable net benefit to the country, aside from fueling the nilitary-industrial complex and prison slave-labour system that exists in the states.
Reports of this occurring are relatively frequenyt, and to those giving out to the media for sensationalising it, this is more of a result of the fact that the majority of occurances of a lest blatant scale are suppressed as a whole in the media.
These soldiers should be treated for and helped, as they have most probably beeen shaped into the mindframe that would facilitate this. They don't need to be sent to prision for life, or sentenced to death, this wont solve anything, and this wont prevent occurances such as this from happening in the future.
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These soldiers should be treated for and helped,
Then thats what you should do with Al-Qaida also no? After all how exactly are these terrorists different from those terrorists?
But I do agree that the death penalty for them won't solve anything, just like it doesn't solve anything else. But life in prison would be quite justified for what are most certainly war crimes.
This is the reason why the US won't sign the ICC treaty btw. Not surprising, the US military has a long history of war crimes that are under prosecuted and under punished.
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In no way can I, as a US soldier myself who deployed into a combat theater, condone what these soldiers did as justifiable or excusable. What they did truly gives the majority of the soldiery within the entirety of the US Armed Forces a bad name. This will not be to defend their actions in any way, but to give an insight as to the reasons of why it has a heightened chance of happening on a battle-weary group of individuals whose average deployment rates in a high stress environment are 18 months.
It stems back to the initial training of a recruit/soldier(Note: Nothing against Navy and USAF personnel, but there is less of an "infantry fighting force" background conditioned in the initial training). A reinventing of one's self into a "warrior" starts with the psychological breakdown brought from the constant harass and stress induced on these individuals to become team players that support each other through any obstacle, including sleep deprivation, inducing stress to the constant waking environment, and getting in trouble when one person messes up regardless of what the whole did.
Next is the conditioning of the body to do certain tasks. Bayonet training is a perfect example of this type of conditioning. To stab a human-shaped target while screaming "kill, kill, kill" as you twist the rifle and bayonet is the beginning of the attempt to desensitize a person to violence. Things like this is what is needed on a battlefield: A dehumanization of one's enemy to better condition the soldier/recruit's mind to be able to act rather than hesitate.
These reasons above(which, as a matter of fact, can be applied to any formalized military in the world) is what makes the current situation of overseas policing actions tough to the armed forces. You have a group of individuals who were taught collectively to work as one mind, one fight, and who are a fighting force used to spearhead and destroy their enemies working as international police officers.
Daily, when "rolling outside the wire" on missions, I would look out at the civilian populace and thought to myself "Who's gonna try and blow me up today?". That type of stresser reinforces a dehumanization of the "enemy" so that someone may act and react, not hesitate.
Going back completely to the original topic, the US Armed Forces spans approximately 1% to 2% of the total US population. That may not seem like a lot to mathematically disinclined, but that truly is a substantial number. Breakdown of the US population as a whole such as mentally unstable, suicidal, spousal abuse/domestic violence, etc., is highly disproportionate because now the statistics represent fewer in number. This means that there is a high probability that there will be a few more than normal "bad apples" within the organization.
However, it is up to the individual themselves whether they act on their thoughts. It is the duty of every soldier to not just blindly follow every order(at least in the US. I am unable to speak for the rest of the world.), but to question any order that is morally corrupt, unlawful, or has the potential to cause unnecessary bodily harm or death. Thus, those US soldiers depicted in the article, in my own opinion, should be sentenced to death by firing squad for committing premeditated murder to noncombatants for being unable to follow that one basic rule that is the fundamental of leadership and soldiery alike. It is, unfortunately, easy to see how they could be coerced into such an act just off the fact that the training of every soldier in the world, no matter the nation or time period, breaks down the barrier between humane actions and complete apathy to a situation. In no way do these soldiers represent the US Armed Forces as a whole, but what they did has happened many times in the past, and will continue to be performed by a few in all countries' military organizations no matter how hard they try to root it out.
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War makes the mind go mad. Shame on these people, but the stress and brutality that these guys go through everyday will break them eventually. I'm not justifying their actions though, these guys are fucking scum
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On September 29 2010 09:44 redviper wrote:Then thats what you should do with Al-Qaida also no? After all how exactly are these terrorists different from those terrorists? But I do agree that the death penalty for them won't solve anything, just like it doesn't solve anything else. But life in prison would be quite justified for what are most certainly war crimes. This is the reason why the US won't sign the ICC treaty btw. Not surprising, the US military has a long history of war crimes that are under prosecuted and under punished.
Yeah, in general, I agree. They're different in many ways, but ultimately the same - people conditioned to kill for a force they genuinely believe to be good. In some cases, conditioning people like this causes them to completely dehumanize people linked to the enemy, resulting in actions such as this.
And yes, the US military does have a long history of war crimes that are under prosecuted and under punished. Other states' militaries do also, but those states are less likely to be giant military-industrial complexes.
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On September 29 2010 11:14 mp_spc4 wrote:
In no way can I, as a US soldier myself who deployed into a combat theater, condone what these soldiers did as justifiable or excusable. What they did truly gives the majority of the soldiery within the entirety of the US Armed Forces a bad name. This will not be to defend their actions in any way, but to give an insight as to the reasons of why it has a heightened chance of happening on a battle-weary group of individuals whose average deployment rates in a high stress environment are 18 months.
It stems back to the initial training of a recruit/soldier(Note: Nothing against Navy and USAF personnel, but there is less of an "infantry fighting force" background conditioned in the initial training). A reinventing of one's self into a "warrior" starts with the psychological breakdown brought from the constant harass and stress induced on these individuals to become team players that support each other through any obstacle, including sleep deprivation, inducing stress to the constant waking environment, and getting in trouble when one person messes up regardless of what the whole did.
Next is the conditioning of the body to do certain tasks. Bayonet training is a perfect example of this type of conditioning. To stab a human-shaped target while screaming "kill, kill, kill" as you twist the rifle and bayonet is the beginning of the attempt to desensitize a person to violence. Things like this is what is needed on a battlefield: A dehumanization of one's enemy to better condition the soldier/recruit's mind to be able to act rather than hesitate.
These reasons above(which, as a matter of fact, can be applied to any formalized military in the world) is what makes the current situation of overseas policing actions tough to the armed forces. You have a group of individuals who were taught collectively to work as one mind, one fight, and who are a fighting force used to spearhead and destroy their enemies working as international police officers.
Daily, when "rolling outside the wire" on missions, I would look out at the civilian populace and thought to myself "Who's gonna try and blow me up today?". That type of stresser reinforces a dehumanization of the "enemy" so that someone may act and react, not hesitate.
Going back completely to the original topic, the US Armed Forces spans approximately 1% to 2% of the total US population. That may not seem like a lot to mathematically disinclined, but that truly is a substantial number. Breakdown of the US population as a whole such as mentally unstable, suicidal, spousal abuse/domestic violence, etc., is highly disproportionate because now the statistics represent fewer in number. This means that there is a high probability that there will be a few more than normal "bad apples" within the organization.
However, it is up to the individual themselves whether they act on their thoughts. It is the duty of every soldier to not just blindly follow every order(at least in the US. I am unable to speak for the rest of the world.), but to question any order that is morally corrupt, unlawful, or has the potential to cause unnecessary bodily harm or death. Thus, those US soldiers depicted in the article, in my own opinion, should be sentenced to death by firing squad for committing premeditated murder to noncombatants for being unable to follow that one basic rule that is the fundamental of leadership and soldiery alike. It is, unfortunately, easy to see how they could be coerced into such an act just off the fact that the training of every soldier in the world, no matter the nation or time period, breaks down the barrier between humane actions and complete apathy to a situation. In no way do these soldiers represent the US Armed Forces as a whole, but what they did has happened many times in the past, and will continue to be performed by a few in all countries' military organizations no matter how hard they try to root it out.
thanks for the level-headed, insightful response. if only this were common sense to most people...
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always hearing some dumb shit marines are doing these days
some of em need to be sent to prison for life
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On September 28 2010 09:23 seRapH wrote:
wtf. if this shit is real then this is like rape of nanking all over again. bullshit.
I knew most of hte replies in this thread would be dumb, but i didnt think the very first one would be this bad.
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United States42692 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:14 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 03:59 KwarK wrote:On September 28 2010 09:45 sikyon wrote:
Do you think the military is made up of people in the top 10% of their class in high school or the bottom 10%?
People are not nice. The world is not a nice place. Worse shit than this happens everywhere in the world. That doesn't make it excusable, but it happens. I am willing to tolerate, to a certain extent, a violation of my morals to ensure that I can keep on living my comfortable life.
Does valuing myself, my family, and my friends, and my countrymen over strangers make me a bad person? Possibly, but it doesn't bother me much as long as I just compartmentalize it. This. Some people are stupid and do stupid things when put in groups of others who are also stupid. War is a high stress environment that desensitises people to violence. The combination is an atrocity waiting to happen. The reason we have officers who are intelligent is to try and prevent this kinda shit. Imo this is a failure of the leadership rather than of the soldiers. Officers have so little to do with the lower enlisted/junior NCOs under their command. True responsibility of the soldiers falls to three key people: The squad leader (normally E-5 - E-6), the platoon Sergeant (E-6+), and the First Sergeant. Show me a successful officer and I will show you the hard-working NCOs who make him look good.
If that's your experience then I believe it's a difference between the US and UK armed forces. My experience is limited to the British, I assumed they were the same.
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EPT
