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As a muslim that used to live in the US, I find it very sad that these kinds of events are still occuring. After 9/11 there was a lot of anti-muslim prejudice going around. I was stabbed coming home from school, and called a f***ing terrorist and such. Soon after I moved to the UK.
People say it's insensitive that they're building a mosque near to ground zero, so if that's the case it means that the victims of 9/11 pin the whole thing on the entire muslim community, and will find it to be a bad thing when they see regular ordinary muslims going for their daily prayers at the mosque.
In addition to that, it's not even just a mosque, it's a cultural centre, that happens to also have prayer rooms inside.
Now, i'm pretty sure that the main reason people are so against this, is that they subconciously link Islam with terrorism, which is really sad. I hope this cultural centre DOES get built, and that the families of the 9/11 victims see it whenever they go to ground zero, so that they can see the muslims that go to the mosque, how ordinary and peaceful they are, and how much like every other American citizen they are. Maybe then they (and everybody else) will finally open their eyes and stop associating terrorism and 9/11 with Islam. It could have just as easily been a bunch of christians responsible for the twin towers, but because of other events occuring in the world at the time it just happened to be a bunch of radical extremist "muslims" who have now put unneccesary hate and shame on our peaceful community.
Also notice how I say "muslims." The reason for this is that the majority of real muslims who are integrated into society as normal friends, collegues, etc. view these extremists as non-muslims, since they kill innocent people and cause undue harm in the name of our religion, whereas islam specifically forbids murder and such. I know there have been quotes about how jihad promotes killing non-muslims and such, but one must understand that firstly, they have been read and taken out of context, and then only snippets of the quotes have been thrown around the media to stir up hatred and prejudice in ordinary Americans.
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Accepting suppression? That's an entirely new concept to me, would you please expand on this idea? I'm sincerely interested.
Simply enough, you know something is wrong, and choose to do nothing. Example, I know that my nation's continued spending is wrong. If I allow it to continue I'm accepting or enabling that spending, I may not be able to confront it directly but I can work to remove those individuals from power. So what I'm saying is that the middle allows the extremes to dictate their view of their religion. They are enabling their own suppression, and so it follows they accept this as 'normal".
What really amazes me about all of this is how americans always take great pride in their constitution and the freedom that it represents. If such a basic principle of democracy such as religious freedom is compromised by the ignorant cries of the masses then it seems fairly pointless. Is freedom only meant for the large majority or something? Some people argue that the mosque shouldn't be built in order to prevent vandalism or outcries but think about what message that would send, essentially saying as long as you're loud and/or violent enough you'll have your way despite any human rights that might happen to stand in the way.
If this mosque isn't allowed to be built on the basis that one of the worlds largest religions is falsely associated with the acts of a few individuals then that sets an example that religious freedom can be compromised in any number of ways as long as enough people get adequately pissed off for whatever reason.
If the mosque, which is in fact a community center is built it's probably going to help informing people of the actual nature of Islam and what it is for the overwhelmingly large majority of its moderate practicians. If you've never paid a mosque a visit and you're feeling paranoid or uncertain then that's something to consider. They'll be happy to answer any questions from my experience.
America is not a fair country, we never have been, never will be. Ask anyone who migrated here before 1970.
By your rational you would have us build a Shinto shrine over the USS Arizona. The fact of the matter is it's not wanted and shouldn't be built. At least not at ground zero.
Islam doesn't in and of itself condone what the terrorists did.
The Qur'an says of Muslims defending themselves -this
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"
The problem is extremists and alot of Muslim gov'ts see America as a transgressor. And therefore our existance is to be ended. We can only cease our transgression by becoming Muslim. This mosque is a direct way of saying "we are becoming Muslim". Ergo building this mosque in this place is telling extemists that they are winning.
To me anyone who supports building this mosque at GZ is appeasing terrorists. You are beggers to your own demise.
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Lol "real" muslims. No true scotsmen eh?
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Y'all might call it a false analogy, but if an entity that you generally associate with Christianity (IE, United States) decided to nuke Mecca, and then built an icon of its culture just next door to the drop site, wouldn't you feel a little twinge of frustration?
So you want to move the US embassy out of Iraq and Afghanistan? (Or as it is lovingly called Fortress America).
ps. Seriously they are calling it fortress america? Talk about being a douche. And it didn't cost 100million, it cost 1.3 bil.
Also I assume that you would want to have all american military bases be removed from Japan (since you know you guys did actually nuke them). And I think no american company should be allowed to operate in Japan either. Or germany for that matter.
Actually I am now thinking that this list would be really huge. But you see why your argument is the r-word.
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On August 26 2010 06:49 Osservatore wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 06:26 Archerofaiur wrote:On August 26 2010 06:21 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 06:18 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 06:14 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 06:10 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 06:08 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 06:02 Offhand wrote:On August 26 2010 05:52 thesighter wrote:On August 26 2010 05:46 Archerofaiur wrote:[quote] You can drink from a water fountain....just not this one. See I knew id find another example  I really don't know what to say. Water fountain does not equal to ground zero where thousands died from Islamic extremists. Thesighter, I'm sorry to say I've given up on trying to help you. Instead, I've decided that we should, as Americans, work together to prevent this ground zero mosque from happening. Would a citizen of New York please start a petition so we can get this on a ballot. Most Americans and New Yorkers are against the mosque so I assume this law should pass easily. Otherwise, this terrible structure will be erected. The Ground Zero Anti-Mosque Law:In observance of the tragedy of 9/11/2001 it is now illegal to build any Islamic place of worship within 4 blocks of the area designated "ground zero". Other places of worship may be placed within this vicinity, but understand that this law is in no way prejudiced against any one relgion or nationality. Addendum: The guy who sells halal out of a cart next to ground zero needs to get out too. Signed, Offhand There's a already a Facebook group with 200,000 against the mosque As much as modern media would tell you otherwise, facebook groups cannot become state or national law. You are for my law though, yes? Just an example of a petition. You understand? Your avoiding the question. I'm against the law. This has been said 100x already, it's legal for them to build it, but it's in awful bad taste. Almost as bad taste as hating/fearing/disturbed someone for their religion. From reading posts, this is much more political than the bigotry you make it out to be.
It's bigotry because you're associating an entire religion with terrorism.
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Agreed and while we're at it lets ban all the churches for what they did in the Dark Ages to Europe :']
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I don't think this should be considered as a race or religious problem, it should be more about respecting the victims. I know many Muslims will talk about how these weren't real Muslims and that they're a disgrace and stuff, and I agree with everything they say, but some Americans will not look at it this way. There are many ignorant people that won't like this and cause much problems
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i think i shouldn't answer here ... but anyways
in my opinion there shouldn't be anything at all like this.
no churches, no mosques or whatever else there is to pray to some imaginary god figure.
wouldn't have been any 9/11 or "ground zero" anyways, without this crap
we better get rid of all the religious bullshit rather sooner than later.
i guess it will be built anyways, so ok. but they should really think about it. cause there will definitely be some pricks who are going to harrass people there, maybe even attack them. might not be the best choice of place
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I personally think it would be funny if the Repugs would put their money is where their mouths are and buy out the land from the park51 project (whats 100 million to preserve the sanctity of hallowed ground!!) and they should just build an even larger center somewhere else.
But if they give in to this harassment (what is essentially terrorism) just out of fear it will be an ugly slippery slope. I know people would like you to think that the only problem with the mosque is that it is near gz, but other mosques in other parts of the country are getting the same treatment (without as much press exposure though). As TDS said, in staten island, in Tennessee, in Wisconsin, in California even people are protesting against mosques. And its always the same thing: "Oh we don't hate muslims but we don't want the mosque here".
If Rauf gives in because of fear and in an act of appeasement it will get ugly for muslims in the US fast.
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The issue has been made huge here in New York, everybody and their mother has an opinion on the matter.
Most people think it will be built right next to Ground Zero. It's two fucking blocks away.
Blocks in manhattan are as long as a football field.
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I really wish some mod would change the title from "Mosque" to "Prayer room in community center"..
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On August 26 2010 07:22 Malmatik wrote:Show nested quote +
Accepting suppression? That's an entirely new concept to me, would you please expand on this idea? I'm sincerely interested.
Simply enough, you know something is wrong, and choose to do nothing. Example, I know that my nation's continued spending is wrong. If I allow it to continue I'm accepting or enabling that spending, I may not be able to confront it directly but I can work to remove those individuals from power. So what I'm saying is that the middle allows the extremes to dictate their view of their religion. They are enabling their own suppression, and so it follows they accept this as 'normal". Show nested quote +
What really amazes me about all of this is how americans always take great pride in their constitution and the freedom that it represents. If such a basic principle of democracy such as religious freedom is compromised by the ignorant cries of the masses then it seems fairly pointless. Is freedom only meant for the large majority or something? Some people argue that the mosque shouldn't be built in order to prevent vandalism or outcries but think about what message that would send, essentially saying as long as you're loud and/or violent enough you'll have your way despite any human rights that might happen to stand in the way.
If this mosque isn't allowed to be built on the basis that one of the worlds largest religions is falsely associated with the acts of a few individuals then that sets an example that religious freedom can be compromised in any number of ways as long as enough people get adequately pissed off for whatever reason.
If the mosque, which is in fact a community center is built it's probably going to help informing people of the actual nature of Islam and what it is for the overwhelmingly large majority of its moderate practicians. If you've never paid a mosque a visit and you're feeling paranoid or uncertain then that's something to consider. They'll be happy to answer any questions from my experience.
America is not a fair country, we never have been, never will be. Ask anyone who migrated here before 1970. By your rational you would have us build a Shinto shrine over the USS Arizona. The fact of the matter is it's not wanted and shouldn't be built. At least not at ground zero. Islam doesn't in and of itself condone what the terrorists did. The Qur'an says of Muslims defending themselves -this Show nested quote +
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"
The problem is extremists and alot of Muslim gov'ts see America as a transgressor. And therefore our existance is to be ended. We can only cease our transgression by becoming Muslim. This mosque is a direct way of saying "we are becoming Muslim". Ergo building this mosque in this place is telling extemists that they are winning. To me anyone who supports building this mosque at GZ is appeasing terrorists. You are beggers to your own demise.
I rather meet my demise by the hands of terrorist then give up the ideals that this great country was build upon. Knowing that it is not a perfect country means we should continue to improve not say "meh what can we do. It happened in the past!"
Islam may not condone what these terrorist did but Muslim did and what matters more? A book written a thousands of years ago or people who are Americans like us.
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I live in NYC and I don't see why this should even be an issue. Barring some zoning restriction that would not allow a mosque to be there, they should be allowed to build it. It amazes me how fired up people get about this.
Yes, thousands of people died in a horrible incident 9-years ago and that should not be overlooked, but it was an isolated group of radicals that were responsible, not the religion of Islam.
For all of the Christians I've seen get fired up about this, I would remind them that there's an important reason Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek and forgive. If we respond to ignorance and religious intolerance with the same, what makes us any different from them? Before we go off and start complaining about radical fundamentalists or Islam in general, there is a need to look at ourselves and examine what we've become. Otherwise, we risk being brought down as a nation and as a people by our own willingness to stoop down to the same level of ignorance and intolerance as the very people we so readily condemn.
It saddens me how many people even in my own church I need to remind of some of the most basic principles we learned in Sunday School.
For those talking about religion being responsible for this conflict, I would similarly like to remind them that religion by itself does nothing. It's human beings that create conflict. The fact that they attempt to excuse their actions in the name of religion is no more a reflection of that religion than Hitler's atrocities a reflection of Nietzche's ideologies or Guantanamo Bay a reflection of the American ideal. Responsibility always lies in the hands of individuals regardless of whatever ideology may be out there. Human beings control the influence of ideas through their actions, not the other way around.
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Sanya12364 Posts
What is appeasement? Groveling to the aggressors and the sponsors of this building are the aggressors who took down the Twin Towers?
By all the literature I have read, they are ideologically different from the terrorists. Their only commonality is their professed religion and even then they might not agree. There are so many different sects of Islam.
Are we to lump all Muslims into the terrorist camp? Are we suppose expect Americas to be so stupid as to not differentiate between terrorists and non-terrorists? These actions have consequences.
It teaches Americans to be dumb and learn that all Muslims are similar to those those terrorists and it teaches Muslims that they aren't particularly welcome in their own country.
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On August 26 2010 08:14 Funnytoss wrote:
I really wish some mod would change the title from "Mosque" to "Prayer room in community center"..
Is the prayer room non denominational?
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Sanya12364 Posts
The tragedy is that many Muslims in the world hold the same uneducated view of Americans and Westerners.
We might be doomed to a fate of religious strife led by two diametric factions, mirrored in their intolerance of each other, both convinced the other is incapable of tolerance and peace. Meanwhile two other groups with mutual understanding will look at the misunderstanding between the two camps and shake their head at the inevitable tragedy. But they will be forced by their more intolerant peers to give up all civil dialogue with members of the opposing religion.
I guess the difference is a matter of outlook and attitude. It's not to take away from the fact that there are truly unscrupulous and destructive people out there, but it's the difference between looking to develop friendship and looking for the best virtues in strangers or manufacturing enemies and focusing on the worst characteristics of strangers.
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On August 26 2010 07:22 Malmatik wrote:
Islam doesn't in and of itself condone what the terrorists did.
The Qur'an says of Muslims defending themselves -this
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"
The problem is extremists and alot of Muslim gov'ts see America as a transgressor. And therefore our existance is to be ended. We can only cease our transgression by becoming Muslim. This mosque is a direct way of saying "we are becoming Muslim". Ergo building this mosque in this place is telling extemists that they are winning.
To me anyone who supports building this mosque at GZ is appeasing terrorists. You are beggers to your own demise.
I absolutely loved this part of your comment 
It's amazing that I love it, because I usually hate this sort of nonsense. I salute you, sir, for your devotion to honesty and logic. I obviously do disagree with your conclusion. This idea that really "winning" requires making your enemy think that he's losing is a little too simple. The ramifications of what you're saying are also fairly disturbing. I mean, how far are you willing to take this logic? Should the US abandon it's dedication to freedom of religion? Should there be ads on tv, warning people not to fall prey to the religion of the enemy? Do you see the problem? You're drawing an arbitrary line imo.
Another thing is that (religious) fundamentalists hate moderates as well as other kinds of fundamentalists with a passion. Maybe some will nevertheless be delighted by the US allowing the building of the "mosque". Maybe. They shouldn't care, but one never knows.
Islamic terrorism against the West is as much political as it is religious. You may disagree but there's real oppresion at the hands of the Americans. Even if this weren't true, the perception still lingers. Perhaps adressing the legitimate grievances would be an option? Isn't there another way to secure the flow of oil without all of the murder and puppeteering. Sure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'd say it's at least a little broke (costly + the terrorism and sjit) and it's more than a little "evil" too.
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stay true 2 constitution and let'em build it!
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This thread got off topic a little but anyways...A lot of people from country's other than the U.S. have posted here and I think that's great however just remember you don't understand how Americans felt on 9/11. I'm not Insulting you intelligence or insinuating you (or you country) haven't experienced bad times, just remember its different.
That being said I am an American and I love my country. I understand as a country were not perfect.
We are all bound to the Constitution and it is well within their right as Americans to practice religion and build a mosque where they please. So If I held a position in the government I would be for building the mosque.
My only complaint is that when they decided to build a mosque near ground zero, the must have known it would cause a lot of controversy. It seems to me that should have considered a different location.
I could wear a KKK mask and go sit outside a Jewish synagogue(I would never do that), but It would cause a lot of unnecessary controversy and I'm better off doing that somewhere else.
Again Constitution allows it so let it be built.
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On August 26 2010 10:31 RyanSki wrote:
This thread got off topic a little but anyways...A lot of people from country's other than the U.S. have posted here and I think that's great however just remember you don't understand how Americans felt on 9/11. I'm not Insulting you intelligence or insinuating you (or you country) haven't experienced bad times, just remember its different.
That being said I am an American and I love my country. I understand as a country were not perfect.
We are all bound to the Constitution and it is well within their right as Americans to practice religion and build a mosque where they please. So If I held a position in the government I would be for building the mosque.
My only complaint is that when they decided to build a mosque near ground zero, the must have known it would cause a lot of controversy. It seems to me that should have considered a different location.
I could wear a KKK mask and go sit outside a Jewish synagogue(I would never do that), but It would cause a lot of unnecessary controversy and I'm better off doing that somewhere else.
Again Constitution allows it so let it be built.
Seriously! They're not building a Mosque! They're building a community center open to everyone, and there is a Mosque on one floor of it. Why do people not understand that?
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EPT
