EPTThe Big Programming Thread - Page 4
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Thread Rules 1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution. 2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20) 3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible. 4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19224 Posts
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Ahseyo
Sweden80 Posts
On July 09 2010 20:59 tofucake wrote: LOLCODE, Brainfuck, Whitespace, etc... are novelty languages, and as such serve no purpose. I'd like to keep them out of this discussion. And since when were you allowed to mini mod? Also, it's the internet and people uses this kind of language all the time, even if you like it or not. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Also, I think you really should add this link to the C++ section: http://www.parashift.com/c -faq-lite/index.html I started C++ with online tutorials (cprogramming.com was among these and I wouldn't recommend it), and I thought I was okay-ish with c++. Then I found C++ FAQ Lite and my C++ improved drastically. I also got some books from the recommendations on the site (Design Patterns and The C++ Programming Language) which I would recommend as well. For the fans of esoteric programming languages, check out Piet. This is supposed to calculate an approximization of pi: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/piet_pi_big.png) (note: I have no idea how to program in Piet.) | ||
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Ahseyo
Sweden80 Posts
On July 09 2010 21:22 haduken wrote: It's just an emulator to run legacy Mac OS programs. You can run reversed programs too it seems. The only problem is the memory capacity of the emulator but I think you could fix that too. | ||
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ibutoss
Australia341 Posts
I've worked on web projects before but I usually grab from opensource communities and mix-n-match until it works however writing it all from scratch is a big learning experience. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6184 Posts
 )http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=84245 | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1025 Posts
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 09 2010 19:09 Qzy wrote: I'm at level 2 (solved 60) started a few months ago.. you?I can recommend project euler for EVERYONE who loves programming and math. Actually I kinda did it so it would force me to get better at algorithmic problem solving, I think I got to 30 before I decided I couldn't take it anymore (long time ago tho)  I'm really into programming theory, but not the kind that involves hardcore algorithms. I might try it again some time.On July 09 2010 20:12 zatic wrote: For anyone completely new to programming who is just curious try doing some stuff in Python. It is imo the easiest to learn and yet complete programming language out there. ... etc etc Python is next to Javascript the language I use the most day to day (and I am a professional Java/ABAP programmer) just because they are both so helpful in everyday computer usage. Python really should only be used once you have a fair grip on functional programming, it is actually one of the hardest languages to learn. Python uses a reference counting garbage collecting algorithm, and is even more confusing than manual memory management. Javascript uses mark-and-sweep so it is more beginner friendly. Beginner programmers will only end up creating memory leaks and a ton of side-effects. Dynamic and weak typing makes this worse too and only enforces bad habits. With Javascript, most web developers don't really have a choice when it comes to programming a web front-end so most people turn a blind eye to it. You pretty much have to program procedurally because object-orientation and lambda's are too cumbersome to work with simple graphics on a website front-end. On July 09 2010 22:25 Freezard wrote: I started with functional programming in Haskell (I'm studying Computer Science). Really, I wouldn't recommend it though I do see the point in it. I think Java or C is a good starting language, I've read tons of Java but it's cus my school is focusing on it. Had to go to other universities to study C/C#/C++. I really like C# nowadays. Functional programming has its uses, if you know lambda calculus, you can create extremely compact code that does a whole heap of crazy shit. Also OOP (and therefore Java/C#) is probably not the best starting point for programming. IMO you should only start Java once you know a lot about structured programming, for example: knowing what reference pointers are, functional decomposition and basic rules of abstraction, expressions, (you know the real basic stuff). Until you can properly decompose functions and break it down to its most useful and basic form, only then can you then start making useful objects. OOP only starts becoming productive once you have recognized and learned the 4 core principles of OOP, and then responsibility driven design. Only then will you actually like Java and not hate it like most people who don't understand OOP well enough, do. C or Pascal (or any strict unmanaged structured programming language) are probably the best as they teach you all the basics (Pascal is a little less clumsy than C and is a lot stricter), as well as structured programming being the easiest to understand. IMO the stricter the language is on syntax and usage, in other words, the more the compiler tries to piss you off, the better it is for beginners. Once you learn how everything works you can move on to more fancy stuff, but at least in your head you will know exactly what is going on. And yeah I know I'm being an absolute a-hole, but it had to be said. | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
On July 09 2010 23:05 sluggaslamoo wrote: Actually I kinda did it so it would force me to get better at algorithmic problem solving, I think I got to 30 before I decided I couldn't take it anymore (long time ago tho) I'm really into programming theory, but not the kind that involves hardcore algorithms. I might try it again some time.Python really should only be used once you have a fair grip on functional programming, it is actually one of the hardest languages to learn. Python uses a reference counting garbage collecting algorithm, and is even more confusing than manual memory management. Javascript uses mark-and-sweep so it is more beginner friendly. Beginner programmers will only end up creating memory leaks and a ton of side-effects. Dynamic and weak typing makes this worse too and only enforces bad habits. And you are entirely missing the point. If you just want to learn or even just try programming - which my paragraph opened up with - you would be insane to wrap you head around memory management at all. People should just try out stuff, and Python is the most accessible and easy to learn languages that let you do stuff immediately. You shouldn't start with Javascript though it is a comparably hard language to learn I just mentioned it because once you know a bit JS it makes your life much much easier. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
On July 09 2010 23:44 zatic wrote: And you are entirely missing the point. If you just want to learn or even just try programming - which my paragraph opened up with - you would be insane to wrap you head around memory management at all. People should just try out stuff, and Python is the most accessible and easy to learn languages that let you do stuff immediately. You should try to start with Javascript though it is a comparably hard language to learn I just mentioned it because once you know a bit JS it makes your life much much easier. I think it really depends on your goal when deciding to learn programming. If you just want to try it out and maybe write a little program that helps you organize your files or whatever, then it might be better to start off with Python. Constantly getting compiler errors and warnings will most likely discourage anyone who isn't very serious about learning how to program. On the other hand, if you have long term goals with programming and really want to get into it and maybe learn several other languages later on, then I would agree with sluggaslamoo and suggest you to start with C or Pascal. Having to deal with pointers, strict typing and similar things takes a lot of the magic out of programming and will teach you things that you will definitely need sooner or later. | ||
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SiNiquity
United States734 Posts
On July 09 2010 23:44 zatic wrote: And you are entirely missing the point. If you just want to learn or even just try programming - which my paragraph opened up with - you would be insane to wrap you head around memory management at all. People should just try out stuff, and Python is the most accessible and easy to learn languages that let you do stuff immediately. You should try to start with Javascript though it is a comparably hard language to learn I just mentioned it because once you know a bit JS it makes your life much much easier. Javascript was the first language I learned (self-taught), and I didn't really understand it (could really only take a piece of code and modify it) until I took a class C++. But once you get a handle on it and some basic HTML you can do a lot of neat stuff quickly. | ||
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uNiGNoRe
Germany1115 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 09 2010 23:44 zatic wrote: And you are entirely missing the point. If you just want to learn or even just try programming - which my paragraph opened up with - you would be insane to wrap you head around memory management at all. People should just try out stuff, and Python is the most accessible and easy to learn languages that let you do stuff immediately. You shouldn't start with Javascript though it is a comparably hard language to learn I just mentioned it because once you know a bit JS it makes your life much much easier. Exactly "you would be insane to wrap your head around memory management", so why are you saying Python should be used by beginners? Memory management in Python is extremely complicated. For example in Python. If var A references var B which references var A (and you lose the reference to those variables), you get a memory leak. Very easy to do if you don't know anything about reference pointers and stack and heap memory. Let alone, reference counting. Just look at the OP. Massive [possible] memory leak there, if it was in Python. | ||
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AbyssV3
United States172 Posts
On July 10 2010 00:18 sluggaslamoo wrote: Exactly "you would be insane to wrap your head around memory management", so why are you saying Python should be used by beginners? Memory management in Python is extremely complicated. For example in Python. If var A references var B which references var A (and you lose the reference to those variables), you get a memory leak. Very easy to do if you don't know anything about reference pointers and stack and heap memory. Let alone, reference counting. Just look at the OP. Massive [possible] memory leak there, if it was in Python. That's not true anymore. Python's memory management is a lot better than it used to be. Even this site: http://www.nightmare.com/medusa/memory-leaks.html - which was last updated in 2006 says it was obselete then. As a Python programmer, I'd say memory management in Python is easy. Super easy. In fact, the programmer does nothing - let the interpreter handle it all. It's great for a beginner to learn that doesn't want to dive into the low level aspect of things. Later, after the beginner has a grasp on the basics of programming, then they can delve into the understanding of -why- things work the way they are. On the topic of which starting language: It's my opinion that all the claims of starting language having importance on whether you'll be good at programming later or not is a bunch of bologna. Simply the fact that C is harder than most languages to understand/learn means that anyone starting on it and actually continuing is bound to be naturally good at programming / have great dedication (I believe natural talent plays a large role). However, if the same amount of people start out on Python (or any other simpler language to learn), more are bound to have the talent and dedication to learn that - so 2x (insert real ratio here) number of people will finish that and go on to harder languages, and then some of them will drop out. Essentially, in numbers what I'm saying is (in generic numbers to conceptualize), 10 people start on C, 5 finish and learn how it all really works. 10 people start on Python, 8 finish and continue with programing, move on to C, 5 finish and learn how it all really works. 5/5 C Programmers understand the inner workings, 5/8 Python Programmers understand the inner workings. Same number of people, different ratio. IMO, look into a bunch of different common/popular languages, and decide which you like the most (or would find the most use for). Learn a bit about it, if you dislike it move on, if not continue, repeat process. | ||
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mpupu
Argentina183 Posts
On July 10 2010 00:18 sluggaslamoo wrote: Exactly "you would be insane to wrap your head around memory management", so why are you saying Python should be used by beginners? Memory management in Python is extremely complicated. Because beginners don't care if there is a memory leak in their code, as long as it doesn't crash their program. On the other hand, Python has many advantages in areas that do matter to a beginner. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On July 10 2010 00:36 AbyssV3 wrote: That's not true anymore. Python's memory management is a lot better than it used to be. Even this site: http://www.nightmare.com/medusa/memory-leaks.html - which was last updated in 2006 says it was obselete then. As a Python programmer, I'd say memory management in Python is easy. Super easy. In fact, the programmer does nothing - let the interpreter handle it all. It's great for a beginner to learn that doesn't want to dive into the low level aspect of things. Later, after the beginner has a grasp on the basics of programming, then they can delve into the understanding of -why- things work the way they are. On the topic of which starting language: It's my opinion that all the claims of starting language having importance on whether you'll be good at programming later or not is a bunch of bologna. Simply the fact that C is harder than most languages to understand/learn means that anyone starting on it and actually continuing is bound to be naturally good at programming / have great dedication (I believe natural talent plays a large role). However, if the same amount of people start out on Python (or any other simpler language to learn), more are bound to have the talent and dedication to learn that - so 2x (insert real ratio here) number of people will finish that and go on to harder languages, and then some of them will drop out. Essentially, in numbers what I'm saying is (in generic numbers to conceptualize), 10 people start on C, 5 finish and learn how it all really works. 10 people start on Python, 8 finish and continue with programing, move on to C, 5 finish and learn how it all really works. 5/5 C Programmers understand the inner workings, 5/8 Python Programmers understand the inner workings. Same number of people, different ratio. IMO, look into a bunch of different common/popular languages, and decide which you like the most (or would find the most use for). Learn a bit about it, if you dislike it move on, if not continue, repeat process. Interesting, cyclic-reference detection is probably not as good as your every day GC but its a big improvement. That said I still wouldn't trust it, and would adhere to proper GC principles. Because cyclic-referencing memory leaks are still possible in Python (apparently). Also good point, I never saw it that way previously, but I think you are right on the money. | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
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shmay
United States1091 Posts
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