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Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iran - Pag…

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Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 25 2010 01:25 GMT
#441
On July 25 2010 10:19 Bob300 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 13 2010 02:08 Monst3r wrote:
Why would Saudi Arabia do such a thing.

So once the Jews attack that they could go back and say that Israel attacked first and they wouldn't get in trouble.


ISRAELIS, NOT JEWS
ISRAELIS

that's like nigeria attacking a country and you saying "so once the blacks attack..."
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 01:28 GMT
#442
On July 25 2010 02:24 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:13 Blanke wrote:
On July 25 2010 01:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:
I think the question arises: What they are waiting for ?


An opportunity perhaps? Something big enough to distract the rest of the world so they avoid public scrutiny. Get in, destroy key targets, get out, blame it all on a freak accident.

I find it very disconcerting that Russia is providing Iran with mobile Anti-air defense. Whose side are they on, and how would they react to an invasion of Iran?

Russia is still in absolutely no position to be on anyones side in anything. Their economy is still not functioning after the turmoils of the 90s. Diplomatically their name is still worth something but they'd have trouble intervening in a war involving a great power, let alone a superpower.

Russia's economy is only not functioning on domestic level. Internationally disregarding Russian trade power is impossible- strictly because of how much oil/gas/valuable metals they export.
And obviously Russia has enough firepower to annihilate the planet, but thats an unlikely scenario, the military conflict would pretty much be carried out cold war style, and who knows how powerful russian intelligence is these days. It's likely to not be able to hold a candle to the US counterparts, but ignoring their actions perhaps would not be possible either.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 01:31 GMT
#443
On July 25 2010 10:05 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<

Democracy is not necessarily the same thing as pacifistic lol. That's a false conclusion.

yea but nobody wants war with Iran. Even the dumbest of the dumb and the most violent of the violent comprehend what 3 wars and an economic crisis means.

I will also be very dissapointed if Iran will be dragged into a military conflict. I was really hoping modern society would not allow nations to attempt building empires by conquering.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44383 Posts
July 25 2010 01:39 GMT
#444
On July 25 2010 10:28 Sfydjklm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:24 KwarK wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:13 Blanke wrote:
On July 25 2010 01:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:
I think the question arises: What they are waiting for ?


An opportunity perhaps? Something big enough to distract the rest of the world so they avoid public scrutiny. Get in, destroy key targets, get out, blame it all on a freak accident.

I find it very disconcerting that Russia is providing Iran with mobile Anti-air defense. Whose side are they on, and how would they react to an invasion of Iran?

Russia is still in absolutely no position to be on anyones side in anything. Their economy is still not functioning after the turmoils of the 90s. Diplomatically their name is still worth something but they'd have trouble intervening in a war involving a great power, let alone a superpower.

Russia's economy is only not functioning on domestic level. Internationally disregarding Russian trade power is impossible- strictly because of how much oil/gas/valuable metals they export.
And obviously Russia has enough firepower to annihilate the planet, but thats an unlikely scenario, the military conflict would pretty much be carried out cold war style, and who knows how powerful russian intelligence is these days. It's likely to not be able to hold a candle to the US counterparts, but ignoring their actions perhaps would not be possible either.

Nukes are worthless in a localised conflict and the Russian economy, while still impressive, is less capable than that of any Western power right now. Diplomatically they're a power but I would be extremely surprised if they thought it was a good idea to actually get into a conflict. They have nothing to gain and are in no position to throw shit away.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 01:47 GMT
#445
On July 25 2010 10:39 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 10:28 Sfydjklm wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:24 KwarK wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:13 Blanke wrote:
On July 25 2010 01:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:
I think the question arises: What they are waiting for ?


An opportunity perhaps? Something big enough to distract the rest of the world so they avoid public scrutiny. Get in, destroy key targets, get out, blame it all on a freak accident.

I find it very disconcerting that Russia is providing Iran with mobile Anti-air defense. Whose side are they on, and how would they react to an invasion of Iran?

Russia is still in absolutely no position to be on anyones side in anything. Their economy is still not functioning after the turmoils of the 90s. Diplomatically their name is still worth something but they'd have trouble intervening in a war involving a great power, let alone a superpower.

Russia's economy is only not functioning on domestic level. Internationally disregarding Russian trade power is impossible- strictly because of how much oil/gas/valuable metals they export.
And obviously Russia has enough firepower to annihilate the planet, but thats an unlikely scenario, the military conflict would pretty much be carried out cold war style, and who knows how powerful russian intelligence is these days. It's likely to not be able to hold a candle to the US counterparts, but ignoring their actions perhaps would not be possible either.

Nukes are worthless in a localised conflict and the Russian economy, while still impressive, is less capable than that of any Western power right now. Diplomatically they're a power but I would be extremely surprised if they thought it was a good idea to actually get into a conflict. They have nothing to gain and are in no position to throw shit away.

somewhat agree.
I think if Russia had any interest in preserving the independence of middle east, the military action against iran wouldn't be possible, however i indeed don't think they give a fuck.
Strategically speaking, conflict in Iran would allow Russia to side with China and Pakistan, so i think allowing it to happen is more profitable for RF then preventing it.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 09:50:51
July 25 2010 09:49 GMT
#446
On July 25 2010 10:19 Elegy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<


Yes, because a House resolution is oh-so-binding, and a war with Iran would obviously mean a long-term occupation of the entire Iranian nation.

/sarcasm T_T

Don't be an idiot. The US wants to control Iran, because that would mean control of the oil + benifits for western (especially US ( 'defense' )) corporations. Iran isn't being branded as evil because it's an Islamic regime, or because it wants a nuclear deterrent (allegedly). It's being targeted ever since they overthrew the US-backed dictator in the seventies. Just like the situation with Cuba, it is true independance from the US (the freedom to disobey) that they want to destroy. Do you think the Iranians will freely elect a US stooge after they're bombed into submission? Dream on.
The US is a failed democracy because it allows corporations to 'influence' elections. There isn't as much as a membrane seperating the buisiness community from the congress (or the media for that matter). If you let the money machines run your country then it is hardly surprising that expansion and invester profits will be the drivers behind every single policy, except perhaps certain cultural policies that don't matter. Institutionalised election fraud, it's a bitch. Have some self-respect.
Israeli politics, but the way, is no longer very rational at all. It is a regime to be feared by its neighbours. If your more rational terror state allows its mad dogs to run wild, then the chances of war and every imaginable ensuing related misery will become likely. Anyone who gives a damn about peoples lives should be very worried about every step closer to war. Iran having nuclear weapons is also dangerous, but it's only more dangerous than the current situation if Israel remains committed to its rabid brand of foreign policy (= if the US lets them).
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
July 25 2010 10:11 GMT
#447
On July 25 2010 10:25 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 10:19 Bob300 wrote:
On June 13 2010 02:08 Monst3r wrote:
Why would Saudi Arabia do such a thing.

So once the Jews attack that they could go back and say that Israel attacked first and they wouldn't get in trouble.


ISRAELIS, NOT JEWS
ISRAELIS

that's like nigeria attacking a country and you saying "so once the blacks attack..."

Hmmm, you've got a point, but aren't Palestinians still in reality a part of Israel.. shouldn't the people who live in a country be referred to as inhabitants of that country regardless of whether they are second class citizens in their second class territories. "Jews" isn't perfect, but I wonder why you don't see a problem with "Israelis"... Also, it's not the palestinian population, or any other ethnic or religious super-minority within the first class territories that will initiate or support any attack, right? How about Israeli jews? Too long? Ah, fuck it, just say jews if the context clearly suggests that you mean Israeli jews. Or should I have screamed that shit at the top of my e-lungs?
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 14:01 GMT
#448
wait i thought the correct term was jewish-american.
Live and learn live and learn.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 14:05 GMT
#449
On July 25 2010 18:49 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 10:19 Elegy wrote:
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<


Yes, because a House resolution is oh-so-binding, and a war with Iran would obviously mean a long-term occupation of the entire Iranian nation.

/sarcasm T_T

Don't be an idiot. The US wants to control Iran, because that would mean control of the oil + benifits for western (especially US ( 'defense' )) corporations. Iran isn't being branded as evil because it's an Islamic regime, or because it wants a nuclear deterrent (allegedly). It's being targeted ever since they overthrew the US-backed dictator in the seventies. Just like the situation with Cuba, it is true independance from the US (the freedom to disobey) that they want to destroy. Do you think the Iranians will freely elect a US stooge after they're bombed into submission? Dream on.
The US is a failed democracy because it allows corporations to 'influence' elections. There isn't as much as a membrane seperating the buisiness community from the congress (or the media for that matter). If you let the money machines run your country then it is hardly surprising that expansion and invester profits will be the drivers behind every single policy, except perhaps certain cultural policies that don't matter. Institutionalised election fraud, it's a bitch. Have some self-respect.
Israeli politics, but the way, is no longer very rational at all. It is a regime to be feared by its neighbours. If your more rational terror state allows its mad dogs to run wild, then the chances of war and every imaginable ensuing related misery will become likely. Anyone who gives a damn about peoples lives should be very worried about every step closer to war. Iran having nuclear weapons is also dangerous, but it's only more dangerous than the current situation if Israel remains committed to its rabid brand of foreign policy (= if the US lets them).

actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
July 25 2010 14:11 GMT
#450
On July 25 2010 23:05 Sfydjklm wrote:
actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.

but isnt the whole pt of democracy is for the ppl choose their own representatives?

if some foreign entity is going to put someone in charge to ensure their own interests how is this different from colonialism?
...from the land of imba
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 15:20 GMT
#451
On July 25 2010 23:11 dybydx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 23:05 Sfydjklm wrote:
actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.

but isnt the whole pt of democracy is for the ppl choose their own representatives?

if some foreign entity is going to put someone in charge to ensure their own interests how is this different from colonialism?

the iranian unrest of last year was caused by elections being rigged. So it's a grey-territory question.
One can describe it as a semi-democracy aimed at creating a full-fledged democratic state in the future.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
blomsterjohn
Profile Joined June 2008
Norway475 Posts
July 25 2010 15:20 GMT
#452
The proclamation of Baghdad from 1917 pretty much sums up the repeated lie, and really shows how language/rhetoric have deteriorated into something null and void.

Other than activism, there's nothing indicating a change in the pattern imo

To the People of Baghdad Vilayet:
....our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators. Since the days of Halaka your city and your lands have been subject to the tyranny of strangers, your palaces have fallen into ruins, your gardens have sunk in desolation, and your forefathers and yourselves have groaned in bondage. Your sons have been carried off to wars not of your seeking, your wealth has been stripped from you by unjust men and squandered in distant places.


ImFromPortugal
Profile Joined April 2010
Portugal1368 Posts
July 25 2010 15:21 GMT
#453
UPDATE:

"U.S. strike on Iran likelier than ever, former CIA chief says"

Michael Hayden says Iran intends to reach the point where it's just below having a nuclear weapon, adding that such a step would be as destabilizing to the region as the 'real thing.'
By The Associated Press and Haaretz Service

A former CIA director says military action against Iran now seems more likely because no matter what the U.S. does diplomatically, Tehran keeps pushing ahead with its suspected nuclear program.


Article
Yes im
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
July 25 2010 15:26 GMT
#454
On July 26 2010 00:20 Sfydjklm wrote:
the iranian unrest of last year was caused by elections being rigged. So it's a grey-territory question.
One can describe it as a semi-democracy aimed at creating a full-fledged democratic state in the future.

from what i've heard, the current iranian prez is actually a quite popular man in rural Iran. majority of the protests occurred in Tehran, which gathered alot of western media coverage but expert opinion on the issue seem to agree that Ahmadinejad did win the popular vote.
...from the land of imba
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
July 25 2010 16:12 GMT
#455
On July 25 2010 23:05 Sfydjklm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 18:49 wadadde wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:19 Elegy wrote:
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<


Yes, because a House resolution is oh-so-binding, and a war with Iran would obviously mean a long-term occupation of the entire Iranian nation.

/sarcasm T_T

Don't be an idiot. The US wants to control Iran, because that would mean control of the oil + benifits for western (especially US ( 'defense' )) corporations. Iran isn't being branded as evil because it's an Islamic regime, or because it wants a nuclear deterrent (allegedly). It's being targeted ever since they overthrew the US-backed dictator in the seventies. Just like the situation with Cuba, it is true independance from the US (the freedom to disobey) that they want to destroy. Do you think the Iranians will freely elect a US stooge after they're bombed into submission? Dream on.
The US is a failed democracy because it allows corporations to 'influence' elections. There isn't as much as a membrane seperating the buisiness community from the congress (or the media for that matter). If you let the money machines run your country then it is hardly surprising that expansion and invester profits will be the drivers behind every single policy, except perhaps certain cultural policies that don't matter. Institutionalised election fraud, it's a bitch. Have some self-respect.
Israeli politics, but the way, is no longer very rational at all. It is a regime to be feared by its neighbours. If your more rational terror state allows its mad dogs to run wild, then the chances of war and every imaginable ensuing related misery will become likely. Anyone who gives a damn about peoples lives should be very worried about every step closer to war. Iran having nuclear weapons is also dangerous, but it's only more dangerous than the current situation if Israel remains committed to its rabid brand of foreign policy (= if the US lets them).

actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.

How is the war going to be fought with minimal casualties? You're talking about the Iraq plan here.. You can't fight a proud people (even a somewhat disgruntled people) and expect them to do nothing...to cheer while their brother or mother is being burried, their city lies in ruin, etc. The only way to achieve a 'clean' victory is to convince the current rulers that resistance is futile and even then the government would have to sell out the sovereignty of their own people. This is fantasy-land stuff. Armed islamists will just move or spread to the streets of Iran and there's no way America can occupy 3 countries at once. War is misery and democracy is a fickle beast. I'm not saying that the war can't be won, I'm just saying that the plans would be full of holes. Israel doesn't care about controlling the oil though.. so I'm only affraid that the US will use Israel to (help) bomb Iran and that there's going to be very little follow-up. It's way to early to try the Iraq experiment again... Americans wouldn't put up with yet another huge long-term investment.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 18:06:13
July 25 2010 16:41 GMT
#456
On July 25 2010 19:11 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 10:25 travis wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:19 Bob300 wrote:
On June 13 2010 02:08 Monst3r wrote:
Why would Saudi Arabia do such a thing.

So once the Jews attack that they could go back and say that Israel attacked first and they wouldn't get in trouble.


ISRAELIS, NOT JEWS
ISRAELIS

that's like nigeria attacking a country and you saying "so once the blacks attack..."

Hmmm, you've got a point, but aren't Palestinians still in reality a part of Israel.. shouldn't the people who live in a country be referred to as inhabitants of that country regardless of whether they are second class citizens in their second class territories. "Jews" isn't perfect, but I wonder why you don't see a problem with "Israelis"... Also, it's not the palestinian population, or any other ethnic or religious super-minority within the first class territories that will initiate or support any attack, right? How about Israeli jews? Too long? Ah, fuck it, just say jews if the context clearly suggests that you mean Israeli jews. Or should I have screamed that shit at the top of my e-lungs?


Let's think about this for a bit here.

so, your argument is that calling them "israelis" doesn't make sense because palestinians are also israelis(not worth arguing). that doesn't make any sense at all. if they are also israelis then what is the problem with calling them israelis. saying "the israelis attack" says absolutely nothing about what % of the country is for or against that attack.


"the japanese attacked china"

"the germans attacked russia"

"the persians attacked sparta"

do any of those statements talk about how much support there is for the attack? or talk about the ethnicities within the countries?

Every single person of minority in the U.S. could have against for the war in Iraq and every single white person could have been for it but people would still say "when the U.S. attacked..." or "when america attacked...". They wouldn't say "when the whites attacked", because that's racist. There are white people outside of america.

I was talking about differentiating between ethnicity/race and nationality - because to not do so is racist.
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
July 25 2010 16:57 GMT
#457
On July 26 2010 01:12 wadadde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 23:05 Sfydjklm wrote:
On July 25 2010 18:49 wadadde wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:19 Elegy wrote:
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<


Yes, because a House resolution is oh-so-binding, and a war with Iran would obviously mean a long-term occupation of the entire Iranian nation.

/sarcasm T_T

Don't be an idiot. The US wants to control Iran, because that would mean control of the oil + benifits for western (especially US ( 'defense' )) corporations. Iran isn't being branded as evil because it's an Islamic regime, or because it wants a nuclear deterrent (allegedly). It's being targeted ever since they overthrew the US-backed dictator in the seventies. Just like the situation with Cuba, it is true independance from the US (the freedom to disobey) that they want to destroy. Do you think the Iranians will freely elect a US stooge after they're bombed into submission? Dream on.
The US is a failed democracy because it allows corporations to 'influence' elections. There isn't as much as a membrane seperating the buisiness community from the congress (or the media for that matter). If you let the money machines run your country then it is hardly surprising that expansion and invester profits will be the drivers behind every single policy, except perhaps certain cultural policies that don't matter. Institutionalised election fraud, it's a bitch. Have some self-respect.
Israeli politics, but the way, is no longer very rational at all. It is a regime to be feared by its neighbours. If your more rational terror state allows its mad dogs to run wild, then the chances of war and every imaginable ensuing related misery will become likely. Anyone who gives a damn about peoples lives should be very worried about every step closer to war. Iran having nuclear weapons is also dangerous, but it's only more dangerous than the current situation if Israel remains committed to its rabid brand of foreign policy (= if the US lets them).

actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.

How is the war going to be fought with minimal casualties? You're talking about the Iraq plan here.. You can't fight a proud people (even a somewhat disgruntled people) and expect them to do nothing...to cheer while their brother or mother is being burried, their city lies in ruin, etc. The only way to achieve a 'clean' victory is to convince the current rulers that resistance is futile and even then the government would have to sell out the sovereignty of their own people. This is fantasy-land stuff. Armed islamists will just move or spread to the streets of Iran and there's no way America can occupy 3 countries at once. War is misery and democracy is a fickle beast. I'm not saying that the war can't be won, I'm just saying that the plans would be full of holes. Israel doesn't care about controlling the oil though.. so I'm only affraid that the US will use Israel to (help) bomb Iran and that there's going to be very little follow-up. It's way to early to try the Iraq experiment again... Americans wouldn't put up with yet another huge long-term investment.

a revolution based invasion is one way to make the casualties minimum.
But I don't have much faith in it. When was the last time a large country has displayed any brilliant strategy?
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
July 25 2010 18:50 GMT
#458
On July 26 2010 01:41 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 19:11 wadadde wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:25 travis wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:19 Bob300 wrote:
On June 13 2010 02:08 Monst3r wrote:
Why would Saudi Arabia do such a thing.

So once the Jews attack that they could go back and say that Israel attacked first and they wouldn't get in trouble.


ISRAELIS, NOT JEWS
ISRAELIS

that's like nigeria attacking a country and you saying "so once the blacks attack..."

Hmmm, you've got a point, but aren't Palestinians still in reality a part of Israel.. shouldn't the people who live in a country be referred to as inhabitants of that country regardless of whether they are second class citizens in their second class territories. "Jews" isn't perfect, but I wonder why you don't see a problem with "Israelis"... Also, it's not the palestinian population, or any other ethnic or religious super-minority within the first class territories that will initiate or support any attack, right? How about Israeli jews? Too long? Ah, fuck it, just say jews if the context clearly suggests that you mean Israeli jews. Or should I have screamed that shit at the top of my e-lungs?


Let's think about this for a bit here.

so, your argument is that calling them "israelis" doesn't make sense because palestinians are also israelis(not worth arguing). that doesn't make any sense at all. if they are also israelis then what is the problem with calling them israelis. saying "the israelis attack" says absolutely nothing about what % of the country is for or against that attack.


"the japanese attacked china"

"the germans attacked russia"

"the persians attacked sparta"

do any of those statements talk about how much support there is for the attack? or talk about the ethnicities within the countries?

Every single person of minority in the U.S. could have against for the war in Iraq and every single white person could have been for it but people would still say "when the U.S. attacked..." or "when america attacked...". They wouldn't say "when the whites attacked", because that's racist. There are white people outside of america.

I was talking about differentiating between ethnicity/race and nationality - because to not do so is racist.

But it was completely obvious from the context! Doesn't that matter? Aren't you being a little bit over-zealous here. Don't you get it? This is a racial (religious) conflict and removing race (religion) from the verbiage is intellectually dishonest. I just think that sometimes we forget that while support for killing Arabs is extremely high in jewish Israel (the peace movement is all but dead), there are a few jewish communities in other countries that may not like the whole project. This is the only reason "Israeli jews" is better than "THE jews", or something of the sort.
There is no Palestinian state and saying that it's not worth discussing puzzles me. Not that I'm interested in discussing it.. It's a unique situation, EVEN IF the military occupation of part of the Palestinian "territories" didn't exist. I said what I said, because it's an accurate description of the reality. Reality matters. Words do too.
wadadde
Profile Joined February 2009
270 Posts
July 25 2010 18:59 GMT
#459
On July 26 2010 01:57 Sfydjklm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2010 01:12 wadadde wrote:
On July 25 2010 23:05 Sfydjklm wrote:
On July 25 2010 18:49 wadadde wrote:
On July 25 2010 10:19 Elegy wrote:
On July 25 2010 09:59 dybydx wrote:
On July 25 2010 00:43 ImFromPortugal wrote:
UPDATE:

House OK's possible Israeli raid on Iran

Republicans in the US House of Representatives have introduced a measure that would green-light a possible Israeli bombing campaign against Iran.

Resolution 1553 provides explicit support for military strikes against Iran, stating that Congress backs Israel's use of 'all means necessary' against Iran, "including the use of military force," BBC Persian reported.

OMFG.... the Americans arnt even out of Iraq and now they are gonna f'ck up Iran?

America is a failed democracy. >.<


Yes, because a House resolution is oh-so-binding, and a war with Iran would obviously mean a long-term occupation of the entire Iranian nation.

/sarcasm T_T

Don't be an idiot. The US wants to control Iran, because that would mean control of the oil + benifits for western (especially US ( 'defense' )) corporations. Iran isn't being branded as evil because it's an Islamic regime, or because it wants a nuclear deterrent (allegedly). It's being targeted ever since they overthrew the US-backed dictator in the seventies. Just like the situation with Cuba, it is true independance from the US (the freedom to disobey) that they want to destroy. Do you think the Iranians will freely elect a US stooge after they're bombed into submission? Dream on.
The US is a failed democracy because it allows corporations to 'influence' elections. There isn't as much as a membrane seperating the buisiness community from the congress (or the media for that matter). If you let the money machines run your country then it is hardly surprising that expansion and invester profits will be the drivers behind every single policy, except perhaps certain cultural policies that don't matter. Institutionalised election fraud, it's a bitch. Have some self-respect.
Israeli politics, but the way, is no longer very rational at all. It is a regime to be feared by its neighbours. If your more rational terror state allows its mad dogs to run wild, then the chances of war and every imaginable ensuing related misery will become likely. Anyone who gives a damn about peoples lives should be very worried about every step closer to war. Iran having nuclear weapons is also dangerous, but it's only more dangerous than the current situation if Israel remains committed to its rabid brand of foreign policy (= if the US lets them).

actually one of the things that make Iran so lucrative for the US is because they have large pro-western population. So it's hardly out of realm of possibility that a US-backed political figure will be elected if the war if fought with minimum casualties.

How is the war going to be fought with minimal casualties? You're talking about the Iraq plan here.. You can't fight a proud people (even a somewhat disgruntled people) and expect them to do nothing...to cheer while their brother or mother is being burried, their city lies in ruin, etc. The only way to achieve a 'clean' victory is to convince the current rulers that resistance is futile and even then the government would have to sell out the sovereignty of their own people. This is fantasy-land stuff. Armed islamists will just move or spread to the streets of Iran and there's no way America can occupy 3 countries at once. War is misery and democracy is a fickle beast. I'm not saying that the war can't be won, I'm just saying that the plans would be full of holes. Israel doesn't care about controlling the oil though.. so I'm only affraid that the US will use Israel to (help) bomb Iran and that there's going to be very little follow-up. It's way to early to try the Iraq experiment again... Americans wouldn't put up with yet another huge long-term investment.

a revolution based invasion is one way to make the casualties minimum.
But I don't have much faith in it. When was the last time a large country has displayed any brilliant strategy?

Otto von Bismarck was a pretty clever dude, but then his (German) emperor got a little bit too greedy and got his people involved in WWI... which in turn created the conditions for WWII. We shouldn't try to be too clever, I think. International law and pre-emptive diplomacy are the only way for peace.
I've often heard people who should know that people in government are not as smart as we might think they are.. just whiny children with huge egos playing with our toys.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 25 2010 19:04 GMT
#460
You said "I wonder why you don't see a problem with calling them israelis". I was replying to that.

No I'm not being overzealous. Israel - the state - is doing the attacking. Judaism is not. You're not very discerning. Whether or not 100% of them are jews has absolutely jack shit to do with proper labeling. Israel, a country, declares war. Judaism, a religion, does not.

If you want to call them "israeli jews" then that's fine, although I suspect wrong because I bet out of the hundreds of thousands of people there are some non-jews that fight for Israel.

The fact that you actually defend the guy who calls them "jews" rather than "israelis" or the less-accurate "israeli jews" shows how non-discerning you are. If I was a jew I would be pissed at the racism, as I am sure I wouldn't be pro-israel since "jew" does not mean "zionist".

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