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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:22 Squeegy wrote: And yet you think you have a clear idea about one of the most complex conflicts in history? And that one side is the absolute villain here? Your rhetoric is absolutely disturbing. Yes and i am not saying that someone is an absolute villain and i limit myself to the current event. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:12 DrainX wrote: Unprovoked? Their ship was being attacked on international water. They had every right to defend themselves. Actually, there is debate over this too. It isn't that simple. According to some sources, Israel had the right to enter the ships to inspect them. I really would leave comments like this out until the law experts make public statements. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:33 Squeegy wrote: Actually, there is debate over this too. It isn't that simple. According to some sources, Israel had the right to enter the ships to inspect them. I really would leave comments like this out until the law experts make public statements. How could they possibly have the right to do that on international waters? How is it any different from Somalian pirates boarding a ship on international waters? | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:33 Squeegy wrote: Actually, there is debate over this too. It isn't that simple. According to some sources, Israel had the right to enter the ships to inspect them. I really would leave comments like this out until the law experts make public statements. This is international law we're talking about. When the experts do give their opinion, it will still be an opinion. There is no clear cut answer. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:35 DrainX wrote: How could they possibly have the right to do that on international waters? How is it any different from Somalian pirates boarding a ship on international waters? It has everything to do with the blockade, and its legality apparently. Complex stuff. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:38 Squeegy wrote: It has everything to do with the blockade, and its legality apparently. Complex stuff. Obviously things would have been different if they had been on Israeli waters. Lets say the blockade is legal which I don't agree with. Then the IDF would have had the right to stop the boats from reaching Gaza. Even if that was the case it would still have been stupid of them to attack the ships with sharp ammunition. They could easily have used teargas/rubber bullets if they met any resistance or just made the ships turn around by blocking them, or sabotaging their engines and towing them to the nearest harbor. Also remember that we have only heard one side of the story. The IDF isn't letting the activists speak to the media yet and is censoring Israeli media and feeding it with propaganda. We will have to wait at least a week before we get a clear picture of what happened and the picture isn't going to slide in favor of the IDF. | ||
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Not_A_Notion
Ireland441 Posts
Would have been a lot easier to just wait till they were in Israeli waters first Also I don't know why it wasn't the coast guard that was sent as opposed to the a bunch of commandos, this whole affair has substantially lessened my faith in the competence of the Israeli government and the IDF. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:30 Pika Chu wrote: Your rhetoric is absolutely disturbing. Yes and i am not saying that someone is an absolute villain and i limit myself to the current event. What is so disturbing about it? You claim people with opposing views are ignorant and yet you haven't done much research on the subject yourself. You don't seem to limit yourself to the current event. Let me quote what you said earlier on in this thread: "But so far Israel is the country who stops negotiations and does not want a compromise. I condone terrorism and what israel is doing right now is no better than radical palestinians." But I am derailing the thread now. I'm just trying to point out that sometimes it's worth it to consider the other side's argument too. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:26 Mothxal wrote: Ehm, I'm sorry if that came out badly. I'm referring to tribe as a cultural entity or so. And that's true, Israel does have different standards for Jewish people than Palestinian people. Israel has different standards for Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens as they are from different countries (my phrasing may be bad). EDIT: to clarify my point, Israeli as in everyone living legally as citizens in Israel, be they from different religions etc. Like any multicultural country or in this case state. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:42 Mothxal wrote: Then why has the UN condemned the attack as illegal basically unanimously? Don't they have law experts as well? Because they had to. Not all information is known yet, so it is too soon to declare it illegal, don't you think? Edit: Moreover, I haven't seen them actually declare it illegal. They have condemned the killings, though. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:46 Squeegy wrote: Because they had to. Not all information is known yet, so it is too soon to declare it illegal, don't you think? There are always loopholes, alternative interpretations and such to absolve Israel from blame. An honest reading of the concerning laws says that a ship in international waters carrying humanitarian aid cannot be entered by the Israeli army legally just because they aim to deliver goods to a country that's not Israel. Israel is not formally at war with Gaza and the ship was carrying humanitarian aid, therefore any talk about "well, the blockade!" is nonsense as well, except under the most extreme interpretations. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:42 DrainX wrote: Obviously things would have been different if they had been on Israeli waters. Lets say the blockade is legal which I don't agree with. Then the IDF would have had the right to stop the boats from reaching Gaza. Even if that was the case it would still have been stupid of them to attack the ships with sharp ammunition. They could easily have used teargas/rubber bullets if they met any resistance or just made the ships turn around by blocking them, or sabotaging their engines and towing them to the nearest harbor. Also remember that we have only heard one side of the story. The IDF isn't letting the activists speak to the media yet and is censoring Israeli media and feeding it with propaganda. We will have to wait at least a week before we get a clear picture of what happened and the picture isn't going to slide in favor of the IDF. They landed the ships with paintball guns and small firearms. The latter were to be used only in life-threatening situations. Clearly it was a tactical fuck up from IDF. Obviously I don't know why they chose the course of action they did, but certainly there was a reason for that, and I can guarantee you, it wasn't to get stabbed or to shoot people. Bad intel perhaps? Who knows. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:55 Spenguin wrote: Oh great more activists, instead of such a shitstorm maybe they should deliver their aid to Egypt now? Or to Ashdod again and not try and ram a blockade in the hopes being victimized. "She provoked me, she was just asking that I raped her." ?? | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:55 Spenguin wrote: Oh great more activists, instead of such a shitstorm maybe they should deliver their aid to Egypt now? Or to Ashdod again and not try and ram a blockade in the hopes being victimized. What would be the point of going through Ashdod? Israel is blocking things like cement and other building material. One of the points of the Aidships other than brining needed supplies to the Palestinian people which will solve a problem in the short term, is to put international pressure on Israel to stop its illegal blockade against Gaza which would solve the same problem in the long term. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:47 sc4k wrote: Israel always seems to go that extra step to show people not to fuck with it. Perhaps if it hadn't been so uncompromisingly aggressive, it might have been attacked in even MORE wars than it already has been...I can understand the 'caged cat' mentality. Not saying I condone anything they do. when you jsut decide that a new country that hates and is hated by evryone around suddenly is there you have to expect conflicts. i mean what would happen some people decide there should be a north korean colony in the midst of the usa.enforced by the eu. do you really think the americans that lived there/around it would be happy?or the US decide to scrap luxemburg and give it to all their immigrants(stupid example.whatever) do you think they would just accept that some guys decided that their land now belongs to someone else? if it wasnt for the huge backings by the US and the whole western governments it couldnt do what they do all the time. we kill so many people and judge so many countries based on how they treat human rights. but this doesnt apply to israel. imagine north korea wouldve attack US supply ship or bomb "terrorist cells" in south korea or wherever. the freakin sky would be burning. but israel can do that ofc. im kinda biased cause one of my best friends family lived there before their land was given to someone else. when you hear from his dad the story how their whole "clan" was shattered, many died and cousins are in prison since years for throwing stones then you got a different view on this. ofc this i kinda onesided from them but you get a feeling for what it is like when you jsut want to live on and suddenly someone decides that you have to gtfo your home. | ||
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Squeegy
Finland1166 Posts
On June 01 2010 21:59 Mothxal wrote: "She provoked me, she was just asking that I raped her." ?? That isn't analogous to the situation. Something like (yes, this is a very biased analogy) your neighbour stating that he will run over your house with a bulldozer and then proceeding to do it, while knowing that if you use excessive force to stop him, then you'll be in trouble. And that is what he wants, trouble for you, whether it's by bulldozing your house or by giving you bad PR. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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