On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
Yep, as noted in the book Microtrends there are actually there are far more hardline Israel supporters who are evangelical Christians (so-called Christian Zionists) in America than who are Jewish. The reason for their support is not so much because they like Jews but because they are hoping that there will be a religious war that will bring about the final apocalypse- scary stuff.
Christian Zionists far outnumber the Jews in the US, according to the author they number around 20 Million. The author here explains how these Zionists are motivated by religious ideology (a well known fact among us in the Arab world). He has calculated that in the last decade, 600,000 Christians sponsored the emigration of 100,000 Jews from Russia and Ethiopia to Israel.
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
you havent read my old messages on the subject we are not idiots we know what is Zionism and what is being jew. I also said we know there are lots and lots of jew all around the wold that does not support the acts of Israel and US. That was just an example and ofcourse it is stupid to blame everything on Israel and Jews and say "no Us has no free will" I diditn say that I just made a point about Obama today was not actually referring to Bush sorry for being vague there.
I highly agree with the last sentences you said that bush and the friends of him were the corporations.
Geez really? I must have just imagined these sentences then. Oh and I don't need to read your previous comments to have a problem with these:
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations.
I suggest if you don't wish to be casting racial aspersions that you delete this or reword it.
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
Yep, as noted in the book Microtrends there are actually there are far more hardline Israel supporters who are evangelical Christians (so-called Christian Zionists) in America than who are Jewish. The reason for their support is not so much because they like Jews but because they are hoping that there will be a religious war that will bring about the final apocalypse- scary stuff.
Christian Zionists far outnumber the Jews in the US, according to the author they number around 20 Million. The author here explains how these Zionists are motivated by religious ideology (a well known fact among us in the Arab world). He has calculated that in the last decade, 600,000 Christians sponsored the emigration of 100,000 Jews from Russia and Ethiopia to Israel.
Oh organized religion, you never cease to entertain me! Of course, the fact that it has something of a deathgrip on a large swath of this country is rather sobering and quickly turns the amusement to exasperation.
Looks like the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all. And yes, I'm fully aware that this video was put up by official Israeli sources.
wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these.
Remember WW1? Assassinate the prince, allies get locked into place, boom WW1.
All in all, this conflict can only end in bloodshed. Israel was given the territory as a concession to having lost it during medieval times, whereas Palestinians can claim it before WW2.
Neither place recognizes the others sovereignty. Even if tomorrow, both sides decided to make boundaries that they agreed on (which is basically impossible given the demands from both), they will still be fighting until one group is expelled. As an assyrian, we have not had a country in thousands of years, but after seeing what has happened to israel, we have mostly given up recently to establish one.
My prediction: Eventually, something will happen, the united states will send in troops to defend israel and then begins the war between west and the mideast, except this time, the west includes all of europe and most of asia. It will be a 7 day war ending with expelling most peoples from Palestine. Eventually, 10 years later, palestinians will have slowly occupied parts of israel again and the whole cycle will begin again.
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
you havent read my old messages on the subject we are not idiots we know what is Zionism and what is being jew. I also said we know there are lots and lots of jew all around the wold that does not support the acts of Israel and US. That was just an example and ofcourse it is stupid to blame everything on Israel and Jews and say "no Us has no free will" I diditn say that I just made a point about Obama today was not actually referring to Bush sorry for being vague there.
I highly agree with the last sentences you said that bush and the friends of him were the corporations.
Geez really? I must have just imagined these sentences then. Oh and I don't need to read your previous comments to have a problem with these:
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations.
I suggest if you don't wish to be casting racial aspersions that you delete this or reword it.
There's no racial aspersion in any of those messages being against pro Israel corporations and foundations is not being anti semitist. Therefore I will not remove any of those messages you can make Europeans do such things to not to offend pro Israelists but not us sorry. The aptitude about understanding every criticism or belaif agains Pro Israelists as racisim/anti semitizm is something that you might want to change, not me.
Looks like the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all. And yes, I'm fully aware that this video was put up by official Israeli sources.
wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these.
First off, I can assure you that all of these weapons can inflict potentially lethal injuries. But you entirely missed my point. If those activists truely were as peaceful as the vast majority of the posters here claim they were, why would they bring those weapons with them to begin with?
They are not weapons they are knives from the ship put on a flag by Israel offircers if they wanted weapons they would bring rifles with them and even then Israel still had now right to jump on someone's ship in international waters.
Oh, slingshots like that definitely aren't weapons... And again, you haven't understood my point. It's not about the amount of weapons they brought with them but rather the fact THAT they brought any weapons at all. It clearly shows that they aren't the innocent victims a lot of people here make them out to be.
Members of the Security Council of the United Nations have condemned the attack of israelian military on a civil flotilla that was transporting humanitarian aid and has asked Israel that they lift the blockade imposed on the region.
The 15 members have individually unanimously condemned the israeli attack. The british ambassador Mark Lyall Grant said "It's clear now that that Israel must lift the restrictions on access in Gaza in conformity with resolution 1860 of the Security Council. The situation now is unacceptable and counterproductive".
France, China and Russia commonly asked that the blockade be lifted while sustaining an independent investigation of what happened.
US representative has declared that restrictions must be soften.
Israeli ambassador has back-ed up the actions saying that the flotilla was not in a humanitarian mission and that its soldiers were attacked.
What the 1860 resolution contains:
1. Stresses the urgency of and calls for an immediate, durable and fully respected ceasefire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza;
“2. Calls for the unimpeded provision and distribution throughout Gaza of humanitarian assistance, including of food, fuel and medical treatment;
“3. Welcomes the initiatives aimed at creating and opening humanitarian corridors and other mechanisms for the sustained delivery of humanitarian aid;
“4. Calls on Member States to support international efforts to alleviate the humanitarian and economic situation in Gaza, including through urgently needed additional contributions to UNRWA and through the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee;
“5. Condemns all violence and hostilities directed against civilians and all acts of terrorism;
“6. Calls upon Member States to intensify efforts to provide arrangements and guarantees in Gaza in order to sustain a durable ceasefire and calm, including to prevent illicit trafficking in arms and ammunition and to ensure the sustained re‑opening of the crossing points on the basis of the 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access between the Palestinian Authority and Israel; and in this regard, welcomes the Egyptian initiative, and other regional and international efforts that are under way;
“7. Encourages tangible steps towards intra-Palestinian reconciliation including in support of mediation efforts of Egypt and the League of Arab States as expressed in the 26 November 2008 resolution, and consistent with Security Council resolution 1850 (2008) and other relevant resolutions;
“8. Calls for renewed and urgent efforts by the parties and the international community to achieve a comprehensive peace based on the vision of a region where two democratic States, Israel and Palestine, live side by side in peace with secure and recognised borders, as envisaged in Security Council resolution.
So basically UN condemned the actions as being illegal (even by US) but they don't seem to be able to do anything, no real measure taken against israel. The only difference is that this time US didn't go in defense of Israeli recognizing them as being in an illegal stance.
Hopefully with all this international pressure onto them Israel will start behaving and lift the illegal blockade.
On June 01 2010 17:03 Lord_of_Chaos wrote: My take on it (if anyone cares lol)
From what I saw from released videos, the soldiers were indeed attacked right away upon landing on the ship. That they defended themselves by shooting is understandable, given how the situation looked like.
That said, on international water the crew has, afaik, every right to defend their own ship from boarding and what Israel did was an act of piracy. If it was done on international or Israeli water makes a big difference, since international water gives the crew the right to attack the Israeli boarding parties. Also, why were the soldiers not equipped with non lethal weapons? Tear gas? They were equipped for a military encounter, not enraged civilians. There are better ways to deal with mobs than killing them. Obviously this is a disaster for the people killed and hurt, including the soldiers themselves. Imagine having to live with what happened on that ship for the rest of your life because you did not have adequate equipment.
However, ironically this might be the best thing that happened to the forces who want to remove the blockade since it was created. That x amount of Palestinians die doesn't really matter to the world community, but Turkish activist civilians with government backing. Oh my...
Exactly. However, there is no irony to it. It was quite clearly their plan all along. Somewhere else someone said, quite well I might add, that Israel should've offered to double whatever the ships were carrying if they would submit to their orders. If their plan was to get the aid in, they would have accepted the offer, but I'm pretty sure they would have rejected it outright. The mission wasn't to get in the aid, it was to make look Israel look bad. And look what happened.
A bloody conflict was by no means in Israel's interest.
Here's also an interesting article from before the incident. It's about the family of the kidnapped Israeli soldier fully supporting the movement if they agree to help his situation. Why would peace activists reject the offer?
Also, i don't know how big this organization is (probably someone who's in israel can clear up) but seems there are people who do not side with government actions:
Jewish Voice for Peace condemns Israel's attack and killing of members of the Freedom Flotilla aiming to bring much needed aid to the besieged Gaza Strip.
Before the flotilla was attacked, Yigal Palmor, an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, said,
"If we let them throw egg at us, we appear stupid with egg on our face. If we try to prevent them by force, we appear as brutes."
Israel has more than egg on its face. Israel has blood on its hands. At least 10 passengers have been killed by Israel and about 30 wounded in international waters. This is just another deadly escalation of Israel's harsh repression of nonviolent protests against the occupation, paid with American tax-dollars.
The White House has stated that it "deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained, and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding this tragedy."
This is not enough.
President Obama should call for an immediate lifting of the siege of Gaza. He should support an international and impartial investigation into the tragic killing of civilians in a humanitarian mission. And he should suspend military aid to Israel until he can assure the American public that our aid is not used to commit similar abuses.
NY: 3 PM TODAY, Times Square. Assemble at 47th St. and 7th Ave. Look for the JVP banner to join our contingent.
SAN FRANCISCO: 12noon TODAY. Israeli Consulate (456 Montgomery St.) and march to Union Square, Memorial Day. Please be there! Bring your own sign! 1 pm at Market and Powell.
DC: 3pm TODAY: Assemble at the Israeli Embassy, 3514 International Drive NW (Van Ness Metro Stop), moving to the White House at 5pm.
SEATTLE: 1:00 pm TODAY. 5th Avenue and Broad St, Seattle Center near the Experience Music Project.
MIAMI: 5pm-7pm TODAY, at Torch of Friendship (Downtown)
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
you havent read my old messages on the subject we are not idiots we know what is Zionism and what is being jew. I also said we know there are lots and lots of jew all around the wold that does not support the acts of Israel and US. That was just an example and ofcourse it is stupid to blame everything on Israel and Jews and say "no Us has no free will" I diditn say that I just made a point about Obama today was not actually referring to Bush sorry for being vague there.
I highly agree with the last sentences you said that bush and the friends of him were the corporations.
Geez really? I must have just imagined these sentences then. Oh and I don't need to read your previous comments to have a problem with these:
On June 01 2010 17:08 Armut wrote:
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations.
I suggest if you don't wish to be casting racial aspersions that you delete this or reword it.
There's no racial aspersion in any of those messages being against pro Israel corporations and foundations is not being anti semitist. Therefore I will not remove any of those messages you can make Europeans do such things to not to offend pro Israelists but not us sorry. The aptitude about understanding every criticism or belaif agains Pro Israelists as racisim/anti semitizm is something that you might want to change, not me.
Those views are common amongst people who hate the Jews and trolls, as English is most likely your second language you probably don't understand what you have said so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Israel has more than egg on its face. Israel has blood on its hands. At least 10 passengers have been killed by Israel and about 30 wounded in international waters. This is just another deadly escalation of Israel's harsh repression of nonviolent protests against the occupation, paid with American tax-dollars.
On May 31 2010 17:17 hifriend wrote: These guys have even publicly stated that they aren't really so much interested in bringing aid to gaza, as they are in stirring up a shit storm and pointing out israel as the big bad guy.
Well they tried to avoid Israeli waters until day so they could get more publicity, just tells you that's they were not in it for aid but for other reasons.
I don't see how that's mutually exclusive. If you're trying to give aid to somebody and somebody else is preventing you then it only makes sense to try to publicize the fact that people are preventing you in giving aid.
Really, it is... Either you're activists with a political agenda or you're humanitarians with a genuine interest in the health and state of the population. Political activism disguised as aid just doesn't ring right with me.
On May 31 2010 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: there is NO way of defending this. this convoi largely consists of 3 groups of people - academics/writers, politicians, and doctors. they sure as hell are not gun-smugglers or terrorists.
That's interesting you don't usually see academics or politicians unprovokedly bashing military staff with iron pipes.
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism?
I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there.
I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks
There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel.
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened.
Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds.
Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries)
The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want
One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure.
I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences.
TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage.
For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel.
There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations.
Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations.
you havent read my old messages on the subject we are not idiots we know what is Zionism and what is being jew. I also said we know there are lots and lots of jew all around the wold that does not support the acts of Israel and US. That was just an example and ofcourse it is stupid to blame everything on Israel and Jews and say "no Us has no free will" I diditn say that I just made a point about Obama today was not actually referring to Bush sorry for being vague there.
I highly agree with the last sentences you said that bush and the friends of him were the corporations.
Geez really? I must have just imagined these sentences then. Oh and I don't need to read your previous comments to have a problem with these:
Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies.
Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations.
I suggest if you don't wish to be casting racial aspersions that you delete this or reword it.
jeez wtf how are these racial aspersions? what Armut said IS true in America to an extent there are lobbyists that affect poliltics to a lamentable degree (just look at the healthcare crisis) -- all sorts, with a wide range of interests -- and pro-israelites are one of them he is just stating the facts how else would you explain the unconditional, staunch (and uniquely so) backing of America for Israel? it does not really benefit america, because it pisses off essentially the entire middle east and parts of europe (and others in the globe) nor does the two nations have a particular historical basis for allegiance (unlike for example, the korean war, hence korea ally with US)
to take this as an insult is just super-sensitivity on your part -- a very strong bias
I'm amazed anyone at all is defending Israel in the slightest. It continues to flaunt international law, human rights and common decency. Any terrorist act against Israel has always been morally justified if you consider the true evil of the Israeli state. In a perfect world Europe and the world would have intervened a long time ago to destroy the Israeli menace. A state which had no right to be created on Palestinian land in the first place.
I'll try to clarify the question of international law. (This is all based on what I learned in law school many years ago. I am no expert on international maritime law.)
The most relevant international law pertaining to the issues presented by this incident is the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea which has been ratified by 160 countries. If it applied to this incident, the issue would fall into a gray area of whether Israel would be justified in boarding the ship in its exclusive economic zone which extends 200 miles from its coastline. Israel could make a decent argument that they acted legally if they worded the purpose of their inspection, boarding, and seizure of the ship well. However, neither Israel nor Turkey have signed the Convention therefore it does not apply.
Unless the Israeli military violated the laws of Israel, this matter will have to be resolved through diplomacy as there is no applicable international law.
On June 01 2010 19:45 ComusLoM wrote: I'm amazed anyone at all is defending Israel in the slightest. It continues to flaunt international law, human rights and common decency. Any terrorist act against Israel has always been morally justified if you consider the true evil of the Israeli state. In a perfect world Europe and the world would have intervened a long time ago to destroy the Israeli menace. A state which had no right to be created on Palestinian land in the first place.
Sh*t like that doesn't help, targetting of civilians is never acceptable whether Israeli or Palestinian. If they want to fight a war with Israel they should attack soldiers and military targets, not randomly spray rockets into Israel as Hamas are doing. Even if the Israeli government is acting the tw*t (which it is, after all its still settling occupied land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem), you can't say Hamas are right, in fact prior to this incident Hamas were supposedly losing support in Gaza because they are so repressive, this whole incident will probably make them popular again unfortunately, in the longer run that may be the greater tragedy
On June 01 2010 19:45 ComusLoM wrote: I'm amazed anyone at all is defending Israel in the slightest. It continues to flaunt international law, human rights and common decency. Any terrorist act against Israel has always been morally justified if you consider the true evil of the Israeli state. In a perfect world Europe and the world would have intervened a long time ago to destroy the Israeli menace. A state which had no right to be created on Palestinian land in the first place.
preach it brother but i agree the terrorist approach by hamas won't really get anywhere
On June 01 2010 19:45 ComusLoM wrote: I'm amazed anyone at all is defending Israel in the slightest. It continues to flaunt international law, human rights and common decency. Any terrorist act against Israel has always been morally justified if you consider the true evil of the Israeli state. In a perfect world Europe and the world would have intervened a long time ago to destroy the Israeli menace. A state which had no right to be created on Palestinian land in the first place.
Sh*t like that doesn't help, targetting of civilians is never acceptable whether Israeli or Palestinian. If they want to fight a war with Israel they should attack soldiers and military targets, not randomly spray rockets into Israel as Hamas are doing. Even if the Israeli government is acting the tw*t (which it is, after all its still settling occupied land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem), you can't say Hamas are right, in fact prior to this incident Hamas were supposedly losing support in Gaza because they are so repressive, this whole incident will probably make them popular again unfortunately, in the longer run that may be the greater tragedy
Being at all in Israel can be seen as a support to the illegal state. I'm not saying terrorism in itself can be truly justified. However by Palestinians against Israel on what is undeniably rightfully Palestinian land can be likened to any freedom fighting that has ever taken place. It's comparable to resistance against Germany in WW2 only this time people have the wool pulled over their eyes.
It's comparable to resistance against Germany in WW2 only this time people have the wool pulled over their eyes
Sorry but no, the resistance in WW2 wasn't just go out and kill german people, it was targetted at soldiers or military infrastructure, such as damaging rail way lines, bridges etc.
Being at all in Israel can be seen as a support to the illegal state.
Well, that's an opinion I cannot share, tarring everybody with the same brush in broad strokes is rarely a good idea, and is generally bad for the propagation of moderate political views. But I guess this is moot, I am 2 stater and you're a one-stater, so there is very little room to bridge the gap
Looks like the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all. And yes, I'm fully aware that this video was put up by official Israeli sources.
wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these.
Remember WW1? Assassinate the prince, allies get locked into place, boom WW1.
All in all, this conflict can only end in bloodshed. Israel was given the territory as a concession to having lost it during medieval times, whereas Palestinians can claim it before WW2.
Neither place recognizes the others sovereignty. Even if tomorrow, both sides decided to make boundaries that they agreed on (which is basically impossible given the demands from both), they will still be fighting until one group is expelled. As an assyrian, we have not had a country in thousands of years, but after seeing what has happened to israel, we have mostly given up recently to establish one.
My prediction: Eventually, something will happen, the united states will send in troops to defend israel and then begins the war between west and the mideast, except this time, the west includes all of europe and most of asia. It will be a 7 day war ending with expelling most peoples from Palestine. Eventually, 10 years later, palestinians will have slowly occupied parts of israel again and the whole cycle will begin again.
Medieval times? They lost it after the conquest by Rome and were ejected after the Jewish rebellion under Nero. You're out by about 1300 years.
EPT
