EPTNews: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 25
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semantics
10040 Posts
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Usul
Germany150 Posts
On June 01 2010 14:48 semantics wrote: peace in the middle east is simple, just need some interdependent trade only prob is that there is a lack shit to trade by all people in that region, someone should go fix that. I fail to understand how independent trade solves the problems there. Do you even know why there is a conflict? | ||
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
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Lord_of_Chaos
Sweden372 Posts
From what I saw from released videos, the soldiers were indeed attacked right away upon landing on the ship. That they defended themselves by shooting is understandable, given how the situation looked like. That said, on international water the crew has, afaik, every right to defend their own ship from boarding and what Israel did was an act of piracy. If it was done on international or Israeli water makes a big difference, since international water gives the crew the right to attack the Israeli boarding parties. Also, why were the soldiers not equipped with non lethal weapons? Tear gas? They were equipped for a military encounter, not enraged civilians. There are better ways to deal with mobs than killing them. Obviously this is a disaster for the people killed and hurt, including the soldiers themselves. Imagine having to live with what happened on that ship for the rest of your life because you did not have adequate equipment. However, ironically this might be the best thing that happened to the forces who want to remove the blockade since it was created. That x amount of Palestinians die doesn't really matter to the world community, but Turkish activist civilians with government backing. Oh my... The blockade was a bad idea from the start and Israel needs to rethink their strategy. The idea of blocking Hamas from any negotiations is also stupid. You cannot come to a peace settlement by only negotiating with your allies, you need to negotioate with your enemies to do that. As long as Hamas is not negotiated with, are blocked off from the rest of the world and given no incentive to stop their violent policies they won't stop. And the people of Gaza will remain angry, and Hamas is the only large organisation that is prepared to justify and channel that anger. The best way to weaken Hamas is to make the people of Gaza less angry, so they themselves can see peaceful negotiation as a possibility, like on the West Bank. Lifting the blockade is a good start for that, allowing negotiations with Hamas is another. Right now Gaza is the perfect soil for growing extremism. | ||
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dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
Looks like the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all. And yes, I'm fully aware that this video was put up by official Israeli sources. | ||
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Armut
Turkey141 Posts
On June 01 2010 14:17 Two_DoWn wrote: Just a question Armut, but if America and the rest of the west backs down from supporting Israel and switches to a more balanced diplomacy in the middle east (ie, forces israel to end the blockade and begins to pour aid into the region), would this stem the tide of radical anti americanism? I ask because all we get in america is the standard "oh, all arabs hate you and want you dead, they all have nukes and can blow us to smithereens at any moment" (similar to the claims made about the USSR, which were later proven false). It would be nice to hear what the actual feelings are over there. I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks http://www.aim.org/guest-column/turkeys-anti-americanism/ This one is an article about how bad Turkey is etc but you can get some facts about the Anti Americanism here. http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1212-Turkey-is-the-most-anti-American-country.html http://www.newsweekturkiye.com/haberler/detay/20936/En-anti-Amerikan-devlet this one is a Turkish source There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel. Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies. When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened. Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds. Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries) The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want  One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure. I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences. TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage. | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
As far as the legal discussion, if you look at the articles and under what circumstances they apply, the only conclusion is that the boarding was illegal. Even the cited article by Israel is not applicable (67a) : the board was not smuggling anything to Israel. The destination was Gaza, which isn't part of Israel. Techicnally, they aren't even legally allowed to stop tanks and machine guns from entering Gaza. They would need to declare war to palestinians for that to be the case, so that the blockade makes sense. You cannot legally blockade a country you are not at war with. And you cannot block smuggling if it isn't directed to your own country. | ||
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pvzvt
Israel2097 Posts
On June 01 2010 14:48 semantics wrote: peace in the middle east is simple, just need some interdependent trade only prob is that there is a lack shit to trade by all people in that region, someone should go fix that. ??? huh its better not to talk about something u have no clue about | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:33 pvzvt wrote: ??? huh its better not to talk about something u have no clue about People give up sticking axes in each other heads to do business because it improves both their lives, peace isn't love and crap it's just not killing people and by proof of that is the French and British; war between those two happening every five minutes stopped becuase they started trading with one another overall they still don't like each other to this day but they aren't blowing up each others cities, interdependence is the only time tested way to make people not kill each other as it becomes against their interest as hurting another hurts them. =p | ||
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Armut
Turkey141 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:22 Ganondorf wrote: Israel has responded to Turkey wanting to send more aid with Navy escort that they won't allow any ship to Gaza. So the only way to avoid a war is to not send an aid flottilla with military escort to Gaza and abandon the Palestinians. A though decision. Please keep us updated on wether the intention of sending the Turkish navy to Gaza was just propaganda or just an intention or if military ships are indeed preparing to depart in that direction. As far as the legal discussion, if you look at the articles and under what circumstances they apply, the only conclusion is that the boarding was illegal. Even the cited article by Israel is not applicable (67a) : the board was not smuggling anything to Israel. The destination was Gaza, which isn't part of Israel. Techicnally, they aren't even legally allowed to stop tanks and machine guns from entering Gaza. They would need to declare war to palestinians for that to be the case, so that the blockade makes sense. You cannot legally blockade a country you are not at war with. And you cannot block smuggling if it isn't directed to your own country. This is a speculation, it was a theory by Haaretz (Israel newspaper). They were asking to their goverment : What are you going to do if now Turkey decides to send navy escort to the ships since 10 people died on operation? This is not discussed in Turkey deeply, because first of all we are in pain that 10 people died and we are not in the situation to talk about navy escort . Second if our intention was to start a full scale war against Israel we wouldnt announce it on newspapers I belaive. For now, we dont have any plans to put a navy escort but the goverment called the actions as "piracy on international waters and state terrorism" we know if it is needed it must be done. | ||
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Yuljan
2196 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:05 dismiss wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded Looks like the "peaceful" activists weren't so peaceful after all. And yes, I'm fully aware that this video was put up by official Israeli sources. wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these. | ||
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Armut
Turkey141 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:42 Yuljan wrote: wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these. Plus if they are planning to jump on every ship that has Knives, and a Tool box we might see more action. Look how nicely they placed the knives upon a green flag to create a radicalist atmoshphere since they know no one in Europe would udnerstand the real meanin of the flag they would just tought oh terrorist color | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:08 Armut wrote: I will start by giving some facts, have you heard by any chance that the most anti-american nation in the world in the recent surveys for over 6-7 years are Turks http://www.aim.org/guest-column/turkeys-anti-americanism/ This one is an article about how bad Turkey is etc but you can get some facts about the Anti Americanism here. http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1212-Turkey-is-the-most-anti-American-country.html http://www.newsweekturkiye.com/haberler/detay/20936/En-anti-Amerikan-devlet this one is a Turkish source There are 2 main reason in the last 10 years my people's view on US, completaly changed. You might not care you might not understand it doesnt matter I will say anyways. Everything started with the actions taken in Afganistan shortly after the Iraq invasion and the most important one is the unconditioned support for Israel. Turkish people (at least most of us) know that the pro israelist jews in America, ruling the biggest corporations and supporting Israel by controling the state organs or pressuring them with lobbies. When an average Turkish person says something about "I hate US etc" you can most likely skip it since we mean no harm to US citizens who are not actually responsible for the things thats happening. All country has some racists and facist so some kinda reactions might happen here too but for 10 years nothing extreme happened. Pulling support from Israel will cause a relief in the Anti American view but I will be honest with you my friend, the damage is done. Especially with Iraq war after over 1 million civilians death, women raped kids death and the total destruction of historical cities, torture in prisons, spent all the credit once Americans had in our minds. Turkey's anti americanism is not exactly based on the double faced Israeli support but it is based on the Iraq and Afganistan war and the support US gave to PKK (againt muslim countries) The sad thing is we dont hate Americans but we hate the US policy and we most likely understand the Americans themselves are not actually ruling their own country but the giant corporations enslaved them into working machines and they somehow thinking they are free just because they can say bad things about anything they want One day soon enough from today my country will have the power again as we had historicly almost gain it all the time between 2-3 hundreds years and this is something no one can stop. Today yes you have the power but for tomorrow dont be so sure. I hope the friends in US and all around the world realizes this and sees what kinda damage their country did and how foolish it is to expect an easiy get away from the consequences. TL,DR; Yes it will help alot but the main anti american stream here is based on the Iraq and Afgan war and the Pro Israel Jews in US and CIA supporting PKK to have a card against us which they are failing today since their own weapon to terrorize world is turned to themselves. Today we belaive the Americans themselves are not in charge of their country and the presidents they choose are not free to do what they belaive either sicne there icredible pressure from the pro israel lobbies and corporations. Yet the damage is done in Iraq and Afganistan, and insisting support on Israel for no reason will cause more damage. For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel. There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations. Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations. | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:39 semantics wrote: People give up sticking axes in each other heads to do business because it improves both their lives, peace isn't love and crap it's just not killing people and by proof of that is the French and British; war between those two happening every five minutes stopped becuase they started trading with one another overall they still don't like each other to this day but they aren't blowing up each others cities, interdependence is the only time tested way to make people not kill each other as it becomes against their interest as hurting another hurts them. =p This is philosophical discussion, i'm not going to bring it to that level, just saying that in your example maybe people start trading after they stop warring with each other. Not the other way around like you think it is. To put the question simply, it's about what drives history, economics or war ? | ||
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dismiss
United Kingdom3341 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:42 Yuljan wrote: wow some sticks, working tools and a few knives. Good thing they got killed. Hamas would have started ww3 with these. First off, I can assure you that all of these weapons can inflict potentially lethal injuries. But you entirely missed my point. If those activists truely were as peaceful as the vast majority of the posters here claim they were, why would they bring those weapons with them to begin with? | ||
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Armut
Turkey141 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:47 Subversive wrote: For gods sake can you please separate the idea between corporations and Jewish people? I found this so highly offensive. The far right in america are NOT the jewish people. Gods... this is so wrong and so obviously based on dislike of Israel. There is huge support for general human rights and peace within the Jewish communities all around the world. Do not condemn a racial group within a country based on the actions of a government half way around the world. It is truly lamentable. It would be similiar to attacking all americans for the actions of one of their administrations. Lastly do not let the Bush administration off so easily by saying they had no power within their own country. Bush and his cronies ARE the corporations. you havent read my old messages on the subject we are not idiots we know what is Zionism and what is being jew. I also said we know there are lots and lots of jew all around the wold that does not support the acts of Israel and US. That was just an example and ofcourse it is stupid to blame everything on Israel and Jews and say "no Us has no free will" I diditn say that I just made a point about Obama today was not actually referring to Bush sorry for being vague there. I highly agree with the last sentences you said that bush and the friends of him were the corporations. | ||
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Armut
Turkey141 Posts
On June 01 2010 18:03 dismiss wrote: First off, I can assure you that all of these weapons can inflict potentially lethal injuries. But you entirely missed my point. If those activists truely were as peaceful as the vast majority of the posters here claim they were, why would they bring those weapons with them to begin with? They are not weapons they are knives from the ship put on a flag by Israel offircers if they wanted weapons they would bring rifles with them and even then Israel still had now right to jump on someone's ship in international waters. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4769 Posts
(I am not saying that trade can solve this conflict, but think about it. The Israeli Palestinian conflict is about land, a very valueable economical resource.The economy is driving force behind this conflict, the racial hatred arose from that, not other way around. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On June 01 2010 17:57 Ganondorf wrote: This is philosophical discussion, i'm not going to bring it to that level, just saying that in your example maybe people start trading after they stop warring with each other. Not the other way around like you think it is. To put the question simply, it's about what drives history, economics or war ? Well, to be frankly honest, the Palestinians have nothing to bargain with. Israel sees them as problem and not part of a solution. The Palestinians have no reason to do business with people that took away their homeland. As for England and France, they went at it for hundreds of years then realized that neither of them is strong enough to completely take over the other. | ||
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Draconizard
628 Posts
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