On June 01 2010 08:09 toadstool wrote: And I'm not disputing the fact that Israel broke international waters law or anything. I think the laws of common sense overrides everything else.
If a policeman with a gun pointed at you tells you to lie down on the ground and stop coming forward, then fucking do it do it.
Don't fucking come forward and complain about US laws this or human rights bullshit. The guy has a gun pointed at you, just do what he says and bitch about it later.
Common fucking sense.
That spritzing sound was every jackbooted wannabe dictator/fascist in the world climaxing at the same time. Well done.
Only a fucking retard would actually continue to approach a man with a gun. It doesn't have nothing to do with dictatorship.
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them?
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
I would refrain from making such strong comments about the legality of boarding the ships, unless you guys are experts of course. This is clearly a complex matter as it seems even professors of international law are not in consensus.
That is why it is said 16 people died and only 1 soldier got injured.
And fyi I'm not on the ship so don't say "YOU".
Anyway, people with common sense already figured out that Israel did the wrong thing. Sadly you seem like you lack it.. How sad to see you defending the wrong side...
I just hope this doesn't start a war. Middle East is already pretty messed up...
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
obviously this whole thing could have been avoided if someone invented a way of disabling a large boat without having to board it, obviously a good idea and you already would have a buyer lined up.
Just read the "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality":
5.3 Relief A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and 61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions.
I just assume that everyone mentioning international waters was correct, there is no legal right to search a neutral ship in international waters and "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality" could not even be applied; it also is applied for armed conflicts only.
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
For like the 3rd time...
look. If we're going to debate, you're going to have to read. The full blockade is illegal. Israel has none of my support here. Stopping and searching ships potentially shipping munitions, even in international waters, is not.
On June 01 2010 08:29 mass_ wrote: Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
hey didn't start shooting until AFTER YOU STARTED STABBING THEM AND BEATING THEM WITH METAL STICKS.
Don't be so biased...
...
-_-.
That is why it is said 16 people died and only 1 soldier got injured.
Yeah, well, when people without guns and people with guns both start using potentially lethal force, I'm not going to be surprised that the side with the guns won.
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
I would refrain from making such strong comments about the legality of boarding the ships, unless you guys are experts of course. This is clearly a complex matter as it seems even professors of international law are not in consensus.
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
obviously this whole thing could have been avoided if someone invented a way of disabling a large boat without having to board it, obviously a good idea and you already would have a buyer lined up.
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The soldiers are doing something that is illegal (boarding on a ship that is on the international waters), the crew has every right to do whatever the hell they want to do even though it is stupid. The soldiers are the real provocateurs here, not the crew...
When you are facing military personnel of any country you are not at war with you do not attack them under any circumstance, they effectively got diplomatic immunity. If they did something wrong then there will be international reprisal, you never have the right to attack military people on duty.
Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
Don't be so biased...
They eventually started using weapons, after fist using non-lethal weapons (paintbull guns) and then being attacked with intent to kill.
I repeat, two wrongs do not make a right. I do not have the right to kill a robber in my house if he does not pose an actual threat to me - this has happened to me twice by the way. Both times I locked my bedroom door and called the police and the robbers ran. If they did not get out after that, then sure, I was willing to use force, but peaceful options always need to be tried first, both for my personal saftey and so I don't kill someone for some petty crime. - or to kill a cop for illegally arresting me. There is such a thing as disproportionate force.
Could it be because you are living in UK and subject to different law?
You may not have the right to kill a robber in your house that is IN UK. But you have all the right to defend yourself if soldiers are illegally boarding on your ship...
Yeah, the law in this case is obviously in favour of the activists. But it's still disproportionate force anyway. Using my other example, if I got illegally arrested should be allowed to crack open that policeman's head?
For like the 3rd time...
look. If we're going to debate, you're going to have to read. The full blockade is illegal. Israel has none of my support here. Stopping and searching ships potentially shipping munitions, even in international waters, is not.
Like I said, I'll just concede this point. I'm not an expert on international law.
On June 01 2010 08:29 mass_ wrote: Are you kidding me? What if they start shooting you? (Which eventually they did)
hey didn't start shooting until AFTER YOU STARTED STABBING THEM AND BEATING THEM WITH METAL STICKS.
Don't be so biased...
...
-_-.
That is why it is said 16 people died and only 1 soldier got injured.
And fyi I'm not on the ship so don't say "YOU".
Anyway, people with common sense already figured out that Israel did the wrong thing. Sadly you seem like you lack it.. How sad to see you defending the wrong side...
I just hope this doesn't start a war. Middle East is already pretty messed up...
A war would probably leave Israel with more territories that they don't want to necessarily let re-arm but don't feel like letting out of their control.
5.3 Relief A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and 61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions.
I just assume that everyone mentioning international waters was correct, there is no legal right to search a neutral ship in international waters and "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality" could not even be applied; it also is applied for armed conflicts only.
Yes, your right. And for the fourth time, while the blockade is illegal, it is NOT illegal to stop ships that you suspect carrying blatantly illegal items like Weapons, Munitions (Or in other cases we American's can relate to, Drugs). In this case, the soldiers were dropping down to Search the ship for munitions, and the "activists" refused. Then proceeded to hit the soldiers with pointy metal sticks.
5.3 Relief A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and 61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions.
I just assume that everyone mentioning international waters was correct, there is no legal right to search a neutral ship in international waters and "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality" could not even be applied; it also is applied for armed conflicts only.
They have rights to search the ship to make sure that it is relief, but after that they have to let it through. That was what they intended all along so I don't see your point.
On June 01 2010 08:35 Masamune wrote: You also don't invade ships on international waters without their approval. Israel was at fault here first, there is no disputing this. Get your head out of your ass.
Also, these video footages are being released by the Israelis so I'm hesitant to say that they are from an objective point of view.
People don't seem to realize you cannot do any of this in international waters. It doesn't matter what, why and how. Neutral ship is untouchable.
Man, I would just love to see US ties to Israel be severed (althoguh that's close to impossible). Then, we will truly see a spectacular showdown in the middle east.
On June 01 2010 08:35 Masamune wrote: You also don't invade ships on international waters without their approval. Israel was at fault here first, there is no disputing this. Get your head out of your ass.
Also, these video footages are being released by the Israelis so I'm hesitant to say that they are from an objective point of view.
People don't seem to realize you cannot do any of this in international waters. It doesn't matter what, why and how. Neutral ship is untouchable.
But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
On June 01 2010 08:46 condoriano wrote: Just read the "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality":
5.3 Relief A blockade may not be used to prevent the passage of relief consignments which has to be free according to the applicable rules of international humanitarian law, in particular those contained in Articles 23, 59 and 61 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or Articles 69 and 70 of Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions.
I just assume that everyone mentioning international waters was correct, there is no legal right to search a neutral ship in international waters and "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality" could not even be applied; it also is applied for armed conflicts only.
They have rights to search the ship to make sure that it is relief, but after that they have to let it through. That was what they intended all along so I don't see your point.
The Israeli intent was actually more restrictive than that. Israel said the ships would be forced to dock at Ashdod, the cargo searched, and then trucked in; this was, of course, refused.
On June 01 2010 08:53 phosphorylation wrote: Man, I would just love to see US ties to Israel be severed (althoguh that's close to impossible). Then, we will truly see a spectacular showdown in the middle east.
On June 01 2010 08:35 Masamune wrote: You also don't invade ships on international waters without their approval. Israel was at fault here first, there is no disputing this. Get your head out of your ass.
Also, these video footages are being released by the Israelis so I'm hesitant to say that they are from an objective point of view.
People don't seem to realize you cannot do any of this in international waters. It doesn't matter what, why and how. Neutral ship is untouchable.
But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
They still can't do it so it doesn't matter, they shouldn't of done it in the first place.
On June 01 2010 08:50 Klockan3 wrote: They have rights to search the ship to make sure that it is relief, but after that they have to let it through. That was what they intended all along so I don't see your point.
Where did you read this? Here? That "Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality" was irrelevant (only applies to armed conflict situations) AND it didn't suggest anything about international waters. We need a source that supports this because to my knowledge it is illegal.
On June 01 2010 08:54 Klockan3 wrote: But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
Yeah but this is what happened and we are arguing whether Israeli had the right to do what they did.
On June 01 2010 08:35 Masamune wrote: You also don't invade ships on international waters without their approval. Israel was at fault here first, there is no disputing this. Get your head out of your ass.
Also, these video footages are being released by the Israelis so I'm hesitant to say that they are from an objective point of view.
People don't seem to realize you cannot do any of this in international waters. It doesn't matter what, why and how. Neutral ship is untouchable.
But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
They still can't do it so it doesn't matter, they shouldn't of done it in the first place.
And the crewmembers shouldn't had violently attacked the soldiers... Also that point is moot anyway since if they waited a few hours the boat would be in their waters and the excact same scenario would have happened.
On June 01 2010 08:54 Klockan3 wrote: But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
Yeah but this is what happened and we are arguing whether Israeli had the right to do what they did.
But as I stated none here would care about if that law was broken or not, what matters is who started to use force first on who. A peace flotilla should not attack soldiers, attacking soldiers with lethal force is far from a minor overstep.
On June 01 2010 08:35 Masamune wrote: You also don't invade ships on international waters without their approval. Israel was at fault here first, there is no disputing this. Get your head out of your ass.
Also, these video footages are being released by the Israelis so I'm hesitant to say that they are from an objective point of view.
People don't seem to realize you cannot do any of this in international waters. It doesn't matter what, why and how. Neutral ship is untouchable.
But that is a fairly minor incident, we wouldn't even have a single post about it if all that happened was that Israel boarded and searched the ships on international water.
They still can't do it so it doesn't matter, they shouldn't of done it in the first place.
There seems to be some disagreement about this, which is why you perhaps shouldn't state yourself so strongly. Unless you're absolutely sure of course. I'm not. But I do know it can be a huge clusterfuck and it is going to take full details, experts and time to figure out whether Israel's actions were legal or not.
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