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UK Parliament Elections 2010 - Page 7

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Alethios
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
New Zealand2765 Posts
April 20 2010 22:26 GMT
#121
Just watching the debate video now. I don't know all that much about UK politics specifically, but it really is fascinating to watch the Liberal leader take full advantage of the two party paradigm the other two have themselves locked into.
When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love.
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:32:02
April 20 2010 22:29 GMT
#122
Op Klive, put this summary of the Lib Dems' manifesto in the OP if you will. It's from the Independent so we can trust it will be independent. Even though of late it has seemed slightly biased towards the Libs.

+ Show Spoiler +

* Cutting taxes for millions of working people by increasing the income tax threshold to £10,000, paid for by tackling tax avoidance and by a "mansion tax" of 1% on properties worth over £2 million.

* Setting a £400 pay rise cap for all public sector workers, initially for two years, ensuring that the lowest paid are eligible for the biggest percentage rise.

* Scrapping ID cards and the next generation of biometric passports, and removing innocent people from the DNA database.

* Reforming prisons by reducing the number of short-term prison sentences. There would be a "presumption against" jail terms of less than six months, with "rigorously enforced" community sentences favoured.

* Making prisoners work and contribute from their prison wages to a compensation fund for victims.

* Immediately restoring the link between the basic state pension and earnings and giving people more flexibility by allowing them to access part of their personal pension fund early.

* No like-for-like replacement of the Trident nuclear deterrent. The Eurofighter Tranche 3B would be cancelled and there would be a full defence review to establish Britain's future security.

* Introducing a banking levy so that banks pay back taxpayer support, until they can be split up in order to insulate retail banking from investment risks.

* Increasing funding for the most disadvantaged pupils, around one million children, by investing £2.5 billion in a "pupil premium". Headteachers would be free to spend this on cutting class sizes, attracting the best teachers or offering extra one-to-one tuition.

* Scrapping "unfair" university tuition fees for all students taking their first degree, including those studying part-time.

* Cutting the size of the Department of Health in half and abolishing unnecessary quangos.

* Giving a pay rise to the lower ranks of the Armed Forces so their pay is brought into line with the starting salary of the emergency services.

* Getting 3,000 more police on the beat and reducing time-wasting bureaucracy at police stations.

* In Parliament, introducing a "single transferable vote" system of proportional representation, where candidates are ranked in order of preference, and reducing the number of MPs by 150.

* Lowering the voting age to 16 and bringing in a recall system to sack MPs who have broken the rules, allowing constituents to force a by-election in cases of "serious wrongdoing".

* Capping political donations at £10,000 and limiting election spending; replacing the House of Lords with a fully-elected chamber with "considerably fewer members".
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
April 20 2010 22:33 GMT
#123
I just watched most of the vid.

The aggressive nature of it (much like their parliment) is always intense to watch. I love how the person who ran the debate just screamed in names when he wanted that person to speak.

Cameron sounded like ass to me. I agree Clegg came out on top.

BTW, what the fuck is a MP lol.
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
April 20 2010 22:33 GMT
#124
Here is Labour (from th'Independent too)

+ Show Spoiler +

* Secure the recovery by supporting the economy and halving the deficit by 2014 through growth, fair taxes and cuts to lower priority spending.

* Will not raise basic, higher and new top rates of tax in the next Parliament.

* No extension of VAT on food, children's clothes, books, newspapers and public transport fares.

* Realise stakes in publicly-controlled banks, introduce a global levy and reform banking rules.

* Create UK Finance for Growth, bringing £4 billion together to provide capital for growing businesses.

* Up to 70,000 advanced apprenticeships a year and Skills Accounts for workers to upgrade their skills.

* Create one million skilled jobs and modernise infrastructure with high speed rail, a green investment bank and broadband access for all.

* No stamp duty for first-time buyers on all house purchases below £250,000 for two years, paid for by a 5% rate on homes worth more than £1 million.

* Require a super-majority of two-thirds of shareholders in corporate takeovers.

* Job or training place for young people out of work for six months but benefits cut at ten months if they refuse a place. Guarantee of work for anyone unemployed for more than two years.

* National Minimum Wage to rise in line with average earnings.

* Ensure excellence is spread across public services with 1,000 schools to become part of high standard accredited schools groups, every hospital a Foundation Trust and underperforming police forces or borough commanders replaced or taken over.

* Right to recall MPs, referendum on the alternative vote for the Commons, referendum on a democratic second chamber, free vote in Parliament on reducing the voting age to 16.

* Help for parents to balance work and family life, with a "Father's Month" of flexible paid leave.

* A new Toddler Tax Credit of £4 a week from 2012 to all parents of young children.

* National Care Service to ensure free care in the home for those with the greatest care needs, cap on the costs of residential care.

* Re-establish the link between the Basic State Pension and earnings from 2012.

* An expansion of free nursery places for two-year-olds and 15 hours a week of flexible, free nursery education for three and four-year-olds.

* Give parents the power to bring in new school leadership teams, through mergers and takeovers, with up to 1,000 secondary schools part of an accredited schools group by 2015.

* Every young person guaranteed education or training until 18, with 75% going on to higher education, or completing an advanced apprenticeship or technician level training, by the age of 30. "
noddyz
Profile Joined October 2008
United Kingdom462 Posts
April 20 2010 22:35 GMT
#125
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.
?
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
April 20 2010 22:35 GMT
#126
And the Tories (also from th'Independent)

+ Show Spoiler +

* Safeguard Britain's credit rating with a credible plan to eliminate the bulk of the structural deficit over a Parliament set out in an emergency Budget within 50 days of taking office.

* Create the conditions for higher exports, business investment and savings, while cutting youth unemployment.

* Raise productivity growth in the public sector.

* Reform the regulation and structure of the banking system.

* Reduce greenhouse gas emissions and increase the UK's share of global markets for low carbon technologies.

* Cut a net £6 billion of waste in departmental spending in 2010-11.

* Freeze public sector pay for one year in 2011.

* Cut ministers' pay by 5%, followed by a five-year freeze.

* Reduce the number of MPs by 10% and cap public sector pensions above £50,000.

* Reverse Labour's planned National Insurance hike for anyone earning under £35,000 next year.

* Create a single Work Programme for everyone who is unemployed.

* Boost small businesses with automatic rate relief.

* Cut the headline rate of corporation tax to 25p and the small companies' rate to 20p.

* Set an annual limit on the number of non-EU economic migrants admitted into the UK.

* Block plans for second runways at Stansted and Gatwick, while starting work on new high speed rail network.

* Freeze council tax for two years and scrap plans for a revaluation.

* Re-link the basic state pension to earnings and protect the winter fuel payment.

* Give every patient the power to choose any healthcare provider which meets NHS standards within NHS prices.

* Stop the "forced" closure of accident and emergency wards, and commission a 24/7 urgent care service in every area of England.

* Raise standards in schools by enhancing the status of teachers and allowing state schools the freedom to offer same high quality international exams that private schools offer.

* Give parents the power to save local schools threatened by closure.

* Crack down on drink and drug-fuelled violence.

* Cut police paperwork to get more officers on the beat.

* Give voters the right to kick out MPs found guilty of serious wrongdoing.

* Publish more data so the public can hold government to account.

* Permanently raise the stamp duty threshold to £250,000 for first-time buyers.

* Scrap ID cards, cut back surveillance powers and "intrusive" powers of entry into people's homes.

* Give Parliament a vote on repeal of the Hunting Act.

* Create a new National Security Adviser and develop a National Security Strategy.

* Double the operational allowance for Armed Forces serving abroad.

* Introduce a referendum "lock" ensuring a vote on the transfer of any more powers to the EU.


KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:38:01
April 20 2010 22:36 GMT
#127
For the record, no MPs were found guilty of serious wrongdoings in the expenses scandal. They were clearly playing the system to milk their expenses for all it was worth but they did so within the rules. The rules were broken and they used the loopholes to legally steal taxpayers money. In short it's just a cheap way of trying to use the scandal to grab a few votes, advertising "you have the power to sack them" whereas in actuality what we're pissed off about is not a sackable offence.
It is of course wholly artificial. They most likely drew up a list of things people were pissed off about and tried to have something to appease every one of them.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
noddyz
Profile Joined October 2008
United Kingdom462 Posts
April 20 2010 22:36 GMT
#128
On April 21 2010 07:33 On_Slaught wrote:
I just watched most of the vid.

The aggressive nature of it (much like their parliment) is always intense to watch. I love how the person who ran the debate just screamed in names when he wanted that person to speak.

Cameron sounded like ass to me. I agree Clegg came out on top.

BTW, what the fuck is a MP lol.


Member of parliament.
?
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
April 20 2010 22:37 GMT
#129
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.


PR clearly would change a thing, even if you want to be smart about it lol.
UdderChaos
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United Kingdom707 Posts
April 20 2010 22:40 GMT
#130
On April 21 2010 07:33 On_Slaught wrote:
I just watched most of the vid.

The aggressive nature of it (much like their parliment) is always intense to watch. I love how the person who ran the debate just screamed in names when he wanted that person to speak.

Cameron sounded like ass to me. I agree Clegg came out on top.

BTW, what the fuck is a MP lol.


An MP is a member of parliament, similar to your senators as i understand it.
Nunquam iens addo vos sursum
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:43:11
April 20 2010 22:40 GMT
#131
It is worth noting that the Tories clearly will be making quite a big difference to the lives of people on welfare and disability benefit. Even if we are consenting that there is little to separate the main parties, we can be sure that one thing that separates them is how much people get from the state. Like I already said I know that if David Freud gets what he wants, don't be surprised if we move towards America's welfare style or a privatised welfare system. The same thing goes for research grants. Which may interest PhD students here, especially those who are studying less than mainstream subjects. The Tories will probably also cut something fierce from culture budgets, and apparently they might be getting rid of Radios 3 and 4, and BBC 4. Though I get this from an interview I read about where a Tory shadow cabinet minister questioned their viability, I don't know if they will do that or not. To be quite honest, the threat of them doing that is almost the scariest thing any party might do!

Also, I wanted to raise one question. Has the fact that Eurostar has jacked up prices ridiculously high after the ash cloud proven that privatised rail services can't be trusted? I'm in no way up on the debate but I remember something about it 5 years ago. Anyone care to voice an opinion, since we are discussing British politics?
noddyz
Profile Joined October 2008
United Kingdom462 Posts
April 20 2010 22:40 GMT
#132
On April 21 2010 07:37 sc4k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.


PR clearly would change a thing, even if you want to be smart about it lol.


It would change the makeup of my government, but not my influence over it.
?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
April 20 2010 22:42 GMT
#133
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.

Yeah, but while I believe whether I vote or not makes no difference in the grand scheme of things it'll let me bitch about whoever wins the election without being a hypocrit and that's what counts.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:43:40
April 20 2010 22:43 GMT
#134
On April 21 2010 07:40 UdderChaos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:33 On_Slaught wrote:
I just watched most of the vid.

The aggressive nature of it (much like their parliment) is always intense to watch. I love how the person who ran the debate just screamed in names when he wanted that person to speak.

Cameron sounded like ass to me. I agree Clegg came out on top.

BTW, what the fuck is a MP lol.


An MP is a member of parliament, similar to your senators as i understand it.

Similar to congress. MPs are members of the lower house of the legislative branch.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
noddyz
Profile Joined October 2008
United Kingdom462 Posts
April 20 2010 22:44 GMT
#135
On April 21 2010 07:42 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.

Yeah, but while I believe whether I vote or not makes no difference in the grand scheme of things it'll let me bitch about whoever wins the election without being a hypocrit and that's what counts.


That's why i'm voting Green. Maximizes my options for bitching
?
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
April 20 2010 22:45 GMT
#136
On April 21 2010 07:40 noddyz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:37 sc4k wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.


PR clearly would change a thing, even if you want to be smart about it lol.


It would change the makeup of my government, but not my influence over it.


This is not a practical question and is just an excuse for mathematicians to gloat. You have statistically insignificant power but it is more than none. Because when your power is multiplied by a statistically significant number of voters, it actually becomes a large number; but when 0 is multiplied by anything it becomes 0.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
April 20 2010 22:46 GMT
#137
On April 21 2010 07:40 sc4k wrote:
It is worth noting that the Tories clearly will be making quite a big difference to the lives of people on welfare and disability benefit. Even if we are consenting that there is little to separate the main parties, we can be sure that one thing that separates them is how much people get from the state. Like I already said I know that if David Freud gets what he wants, don't be surprised if we move towards America's welfare style or a privatised welfare system. The same thing goes for research grants. Which may interest PhD students here, especially those who are studying less than mainstream subjects. The Tories will probably also cut something fierce from culture budgets, and apparently they might be getting rid of Radios 3 and 4, and BBC 4. Though I get this from an interview I read about where a Tory shadow cabinet minister questioned their viability, I don't know if they will do that or not. To be quite honest, the threat of them doing that is almost the scariest thing any party might do!

Also, I wanted to raise one question. Has the fact that Eurostar has jacked up prices ridiculously high after the ash cloud proven that privatised rail services can't be trusted? I'm in no way up on the debate but I remember something about it 5 years ago. Anyone care to voice an opinion, since we are discussing British politics?

It sucks that the Conservatives are making cuts but the country is very heavily in debt. In the end we have to accept the reality of the situation which is that not all the cuts can be out of things we don't like. Some of us are going to lose out. What you have to remember is that Brown was buying these things with borrowed money, they were never ours in the first place. It's just now we have to lose the nice things we borrowed and a bit more to pay it back.

On the Eurostar note, it loses a lot of money and is heavily in debt. I for one am glad that the money it loses isn't mine. If it has to price gouge to break even so be it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
April 20 2010 22:48 GMT
#138
On April 21 2010 07:45 sc4k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2010 07:40 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:37 sc4k wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:35 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:25 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 07:19 noddyz wrote:
On April 21 2010 06:57 KwarK wrote:
On April 21 2010 01:57 UdderChaos wrote:
Also they oppose commercial growing of GM crops, don't see why if they are tested as safe?

This pisses me off because GM is no more artificial than selective breeding, just more efficient. It's purely ignorant fearmongering about playing God that keeps them down. If it wasn't for high yield crops being created and dispersed hundreds of millions of people would have died.
Edit: In fact, there really isn't much in the Lib Dems manifesto I like, I think mainly because they've never been in Government nor do any of them have any experience of Government. Their average voter has always been somewhat delusional and idealistic (for why else would you vote for a third party in a two party system) and their manifesto has always reflected that. Plans to appease everyone. Green energy, no war, good environment, happier people, puppies and rainbows.
While I'm voting in a strongly Labour constituency in which the only credible challenge is Lib Dems I'm still tempted to throw my vote at the Conservatives. I'm rather apathetic about all three but I don't think the Lib Dems are ready for grown up politics yet.


Surely if you don't support any of the three major parties it would make more sence to throw your vote at the libdems, get some politcal reform out of them and thus have more viable parties in future elections, enabling you to vote for a party you actually like.

Except any vote is largely symbollic because one vote changes nothing. With that in mind I'd like to symbollically oppose Labour and the Lib Dems, despite the fact that in FPTP it changes nothing.


With that logic you way aswell not vote at all as even if you use your vote to symbollically oppose
Labour and the Lib Dems, it a symbol no-one will notice or care about. In fact if you extend the argument further, PR wouldn't change a thing as the odds of your single vote making a difference are minimal. The only soloution would be a mass scale devoloution of power.


PR clearly would change a thing, even if you want to be smart about it lol.


It would change the makeup of my government, but not my influence over it.


This is not a practical question and is just an excuse for mathematicians to gloat. You have statistically insignificant power but it is more than none. Because when your power is multiplied by a statistically significant number of voters, it actually becomes a large number; but when 0 is multiplied by anything it becomes 0.

But an individual doesn't get a statistically significant number of votes and I have no influence over these other voters. If I choose to vote on a whim that doesn't mean they will. The "if everyone did that" fallacy doesn't apply.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
sc4k
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United Kingdom5454 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-20 22:59:33
April 20 2010 22:58 GMT
#139
Regardless, there clearly is a difference between 0.000001 and 0. The chances of you choosing who is in power directly may be 1/30m, but the chances of you choosing the party who wins are something like 2/5 so if your party gets in you can be sure that there are 15m people who all know that, because you all combined together, you won the general election. There's something in that imo. *noob team imo* *imba map* *nerf hope* say the losers.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42693 Posts
April 20 2010 23:00 GMT
#140
On April 21 2010 07:58 sc4k wrote:
Regardless, there clearly is a difference between 0.000001 and 0. The chances of you choosing who is in power directly may be 1/30m, but the chances of you choosing the party who wins are something like 2/5 so if your party gets in you can be sure that there are 15m people who all know that, because you all combined together, you won the general election. There's something in that imo.

Every vote over the number of the second place is wasted. Every vote for a losing candidate is wasted. Only in the highly unlikely situation of a one vote margin does anyone's vote have any value. In every other situation nothing would change if a given individual didn't turn up.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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