EPTCan someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though?
Polish Catastrophy - Page 13
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Exteray
United States1094 Posts
Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On April 11 2010 13:41 Exteray wrote: Terrible terrible tragedy )= Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre try reading that. | ||
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vvvVec
Norway85 Posts
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Pape
Serbia419 Posts
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
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KnockOut
Germany22 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29904 Posts
On April 11 2010 16:58 KnockOut wrote: damn, the polish had more luck then germany D: go troll somewhere else I really appreciate the minute of silence during the Gran Derbi yesterday. | ||
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Noob-a-tron
Poland23 Posts
you don't even know how nice it is to hear all this support from you all. thank you all TLers for the kind words, i'm sure that for all Polish ppl on TL.net it's really supportive to see your true interest in this matter. Pole | ||
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
Oh well, perfect example where the humanity is going. On April 11 2010 13:41 Exteray wrote: Terrible terrible tragedy )= Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? Russia and Poland had very hard relations for ages; as most neighbor countries. Poland was the only country to ever conquer Moscow, but lost it some time later. You need to understand that what we understand as Soviet Russia is not exactly one country, but a mix of different countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and so on. The relations are very complex, because they are not really based on facts, more like politics. During WW2, Ukrainian nationalists (which arent really equal to Russians) would murder lots of Polish people in many cruel ways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army When Soviet Russia occupied Ukraine, Red Army clashed with UPA too. 70 years later the Polish politicians tried to influence Ukraine and supported the 'orange revolution' there. The problem is that this revolution failed and people like Kaczynski burned all the bridges to other parties active in Ukraine. Why did they burn the bridges? Because Ukraine is a divided country, on the west part live Ukrainians, on the east - Russians. Russia wants the country as their own place of influence. Kaczynski would consider everything Russian evil (which is true to some degree, they just act for themselves; IMO USA does the same, but has better marketing), and had pretty bad relations with Russia in general. Of course the Russians have never admitted/apologized for the Katyn massacre*. You have to understand, that Russia is a 'strange' country - politics affect the way business works there e.g. Kaczynski says that Russians should admit to the Katyn massacre - Russians impose problems with imports from Poland, telling that additional medical exams are needed etc. Thus Kaczynski's actions werent really liked here; few companies lost millions of zlotys just due to bad mouth of the president - and weird ways the Russian administration works. Personally I have no damn idea why the Russians wont apologize for Katyn; I mean, it was done by Stalin, who also starved millions of Ukrainins etc. I also dont understand why the governments are kicking each others ankles, instead of focusing on doing business. Unfortunately doing business is not that easy either, because Poland (just like most of Eu), buys natural resources (mainly gas) from Russia - and Russians usually try to pressure other countries by threatening to turn it off. Kaczynski stood behind countries like Georgia, who wanted to come out of Russians influence - which of course angered the Russians. The average Polish person, is sorta brainwashed by the media; who general speak of Russians in bad way. As far as I know, the same happens in Russian, but to even higher degree. In addition, after all, Russians were the occupants of the country for nearly 50 years and still there are lots of cases that are not solved (problems with export of goods; problems with import of gas; Katyn). *speaking of apologizing; when Germany invaded the Czechs; Poland occupied a small part of it too - Kaczynski apologized for that; this was so damn random, that the Czech ambassador didnt know what to say lol; actually this was one of the good parts of his presidency | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On April 11 2010 20:15 exeexe wrote: There is a rule here stating that you dont put the heads of the state under the same roof at the same time. Now you know why. Guess Poland had not heard of this rule before. Why do you post if you don't even know who exactly died or why they were going to Smolensk? About the most important thing president can do in Poland is to veto acts that passed parliament. Now Marshal of the Sejm (lower house of the Polish parliament) is going to take over his duties. The point here is he's the favourite to win the next presidential election... I have no idea how the death of all generals is going to impact Polish army. We're not at war so it's not as crucial. edit: BTW about the most important people going in different planes it's funny if you think that's the case because president and government going to Bruxelles or somewhere in different planes because they didn't like each other was pretty big deal not so long ago. Those planes were ~100 meters or so from each other on the airport there. I wonder who decided to ignore control tower's warnings and decided to land this time. Kaczynski wanted to fire one of his pilots once because when he was going to Georgia last summer he couldn't force him to land in Tbilisi (just few days after Russian forces crossed borders) instead of Azerbaijan as was planned before flight. | ||
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stormssc
Poland125 Posts
I hope I am wrong. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
jk ... sort of | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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taichou
Lithuania108 Posts
On April 11 2010 20:03 Green_Ranger wrote: Someone already wrote it here; that the accident probably happened because Kaczynski ordered the pilot to land (which happened before). The media dont follow that lead at all, because they are making a hero out of him, despite the fact that there are lots of people who didnt like him before. Oh well, perfect example where the humanity is going. Russia and Poland had very hard relations for ages; as most neighbor countries. Poland was the only country to ever conquer Moscow, but lost it some time later. You need to understand that what we understand as Soviet Russia is not exactly one country, but a mix of different countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and so on. The relations are very complex, because they are not really based on facts, more like politics. During WW2, Ukrainian nationalists (which arent really equal to Russians) would murder lots of Polish people in many cruel ways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army When Soviet Russia occupied Ukraine, Red Army clashed with UPA too. 70 years later the Polish politicians tried to influence Ukraine and supported the 'orange revolution' there. The problem is that this revolution failed and people like Kaczynski burned all the bridges to other parties active in Ukraine. Why did they burn the bridges? Because Ukraine is a divided country, on the west part live Ukrainians, on the east - Russians. Russia wants the country as their own place of influence. Kaczynski would consider everything Russian evil (which is true to some degree, they just act for themselves; IMO USA does the same, but has better marketing), and had pretty bad relations with Russia in general. Of course the Russians have never admitted/apologized for the Katyn massacre*. You have to understand, that Russia is a 'strange' country - politics affect the way business works there e.g. Kaczynski says that Russians should admit to the Katyn massacre - Russians impose problems with imports from Poland, telling that additional medical exams are needed etc. Thus Kaczynski's actions werent really liked here; few companies lost millions of zlotys just due to bad mouth of the president - and weird ways the Russian administration works. Personally I have no damn idea why the Russians wont apologize for Katyn; I mean, it was done by Stalin, who also starved millions of Ukrainins etc. I also dont understand why the governments are kicking each others ankles, instead of focusing on doing business. Unfortunately doing business is not that easy either, because Poland (just like most of Eu), buys natural resources (mainly gas) from Russia - and Russians usually try to pressure other countries by threatening to turn it off. Kaczynski stood behind countries like Georgia, who wanted to come out of Russians influence - which of course angered the Russians. The average Polish person, is sorta brainwashed by the media; who general speak of Russians in bad way. As far as I know, the same happens in Russian, but to even higher degree. In addition, after all, Russians were the occupants of the country for nearly 50 years and still there are lots of cases that are not solved (problems with export of goods; problems with import of gas; Katyn). *speaking of apologizing; when Germany invaded the Czechs; Poland occupied a small part of it too - Kaczynski apologized for that; this was so damn random, that the Czech ambassador didnt know what to say lol; actually this was one of the good parts of his presidency Dont put us in same category in Soviet Russia... | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17713 Posts
On April 12 2010 01:14 stormssc wrote: I think that pilots might have been under pressure of generals Well, the chief of our air forces was there too and I don't believe he would go against pilot's judgment, especially if you remember the tragedy we had not so long ago where some high profile military officers died in a plane crash because one of them wanted to sit behind the steers instead of the designated pilot... And I really do hope that this entire thing won't ruin our relations with Russia. I'm not a big fan of them, but picturing them as hostile towards us while promoting USA is a bad move in my opinion. After all, it's good to be friends with Uncle Sam, but he is across the Great Water... | ||
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baqarah
Poland13 Posts
On April 12 2010 02:32 taichou wrote: Dont put us in same category in Soviet Russia... I think he meant we, Poles, consider Soviet Russia as mix of different countries. We know that some countries like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were incorporated by force and we always supported other post-soviet states in their fight to become less dependent from Russia. | ||
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