EPThttp://tiny.pl/hg46c
If I'll find any english information on this I'll update asap !
Polish Catastrophy
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
http://tiny.pl/hg46c If I'll find any english information on this I'll update asap ! | ||
GTR
51451 Posts
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Husky
United States3362 Posts
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6390K120100410 | ||
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DrivE
United States2554 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Pan Lech KACZYŃSKI Prezydent Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej Pani Maria KACZYŃSKA Małżonka Prezydenta Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej Official delegation : 1. Pan Ryszard KACZOROWSKI b. Prezydent RP na Uchodźctwie 2. Pan Krzysztof PUTRA Wicemarszałek Sejmu RP 3. Pan Jerzy SZMAJDZIŃSKI Wicemarszałek Sejmu RP 4. Pani Krystyna BOCHENEK Wicemarszałek Senatu RP 5. Pan Jerzy BAHR Ambasador RP w Federacji Rosyjskiej 6. Pan Władysław STASIAK Szef Kancelarii Prezydenta RP 7. Pan Aleksander SZCZYGŁO Szef Biura Bezpieczeństwa Narodowego 8. Pan Jacek SASIN Sekretarz Stanu, Zastępca Szefa Kancelarii Prezydenta RP 9. Pan Paweł WYPYCH Sekretarz Stanu w Kancelarii Prezydenta RP 10. Pan Mariusz HANDZLIK Podsekretarz Stanu w Kancelarii Prezydenta RP 11. Pan Andrzej KREMER Podsekretarz Stanu w Ministerstwie Spraw Zagranicznych 12. Pan Stanisław KOMOROWSKI Podsekretarz Stanu w MON 13. Pan Tomasz MERTA Podsekretarz Stanu w MKiDN 14. Gen. Franciszek GĄGOR Szef Sztabu Generalnego Wojska Polskiego 15. Pan Andrzej PRZEWOŹNIK Sekretarz ROPWiM 16. Pan Maciej PŁAŻYŃSKI Prezes Stowarzyszenia „Wspólnota Polska” 17. Pan Mariusz KAZANA Dyrektor Protokołu Dyplomatycznego MSZ PRZEDSTAWICIELE PARLAMENTU RP 1. Pan Leszek DEPTUŁA Poseł na Sejm RP 2. Pan Grzegorz DOLNIAK Poseł na Sejm RP 3. Pani Grażyna GĘSICKA Poseł na Sejm RP 4. Pan Przemysław GOSIEWSKI Poseł na Sejm RP 5. Pan Sebastian KARPINIUK Poseł na Sejm RP 6. Pani Izabela JARUGA – NOWACKA Poseł na Sejm RP 7. Pan Zbigniew WASSERMANN Poseł na Sejm RP 8. Pani Aleksandra NATALLI – ŚWIAT Poseł na Sejm RP 10. Pan Arkadiusz RYBICKI Poseł na Sejm RP 11. Pani Jolanta SZYMANEK – DERESZ Poseł na Sejm RP 12. Pan Wiesław WODA Poseł na Sejm RP 13. Pan Edward WOJTAS Poseł na Sejm RP 14. Pani Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator RP 15. Pan Stanisław ZAJĄC Senator RP OSOBY TOWARZYSZĄCE 1. Pan Janusz KOCHANOWSKI Rzecznik Praw Obywatelskich 2. Pan Sławomir SKRZYPEK Prezes Narodowego Banku Polskiego 3. Pan Janusz KURTYKA Prezes Instytutu Pamięci Narodowej 4. Pan Janusz KRUPSKI Kierownik Urzędu do Spraw Kombatantów i Osób Represjonowanych PRZEDSTAWICIELE KOŚCIOŁÓW I WYZNAŃ RELIGIJNYCH 1. Ks. Bp. gen. dyw. Tadeusz PŁOSKI Ordynariusz Polowy Wojska Polskiego 2. Abp gen. bryg. Miron CHODAKOWSKI Prawosławny Ordynariusz Wojska Polskiego 3. Ks. płk Adam PILCH Ewangelickie Duszpasterstwo Polowe 4. Ks. ppłk Jan OSIŃSKI Ordynariat Polowy Wojska Polskiego PRZEDSTAWICIELE RODZIN KATYŃSKICH I INNYCH STOWARZYSZEŃ 1. Pan Edward DUCHNOWSKI Sekretarz Generalny Związku Sybiraków 2. Ks. prałat Bronisław GOSTOMSKI 3. Ks. Józef JONIEC Prezes Stowarzyszenia Parafiada 4. Ks. Zdzisław KRÓL Kapelan Warszawskiej Rodziny Katyńskiej 1987-2007 5. Ks. Andrzej KWAŚNIK Kapelan Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI 7. Pani Bożena ŁOJEK Prezes Polskiej Fundacji Katyńskiej 8. Pan Stefan MELAK Prezes Komitetu Katyńskiego 9. Pan Stanisław MIKKE Wiceprzewodniczący ROPWiM 10. Pani Bronisława ORAWIEC - LOFFLER 11. Pani Katarzyna PISKORSKA 12. Pan Andrzej SARIUSZ – SKĄPSKI Prezes Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 13. Pan Wojciech SEWERYN 14. Pan Leszek SOLSKI 15. Pani Teresa WALEWSKA – PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Fundacja „Golgota Wschodu” 16. Pani Gabriela ZYCH 17. Pani Ewa BĄKOWSKA wnuczka Gen. bryg. Mieczysława Smorawińskiego 18. Pani Maria BOROWSKA 19. Pan Bartosz BOROWSKI 20. Pan Dariusz MALINOWSKI PRZEDSTAWICIELE SIŁ ZBROJNYCH RP 1. Gen. broni Bronisław KWIATKOWSKI Dowódca Operacyjny Sił Zbrojnych RP 2. Gen. broni pil. Andrzej BŁASIK Dowódca Sił Powietrznych RP 3. Gen. dyw. Tadeusz BUK Dowódca Wojsk Lądowych RP 4. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI Dowódca Wojsk Specjalnych RP 5. Wiceadmirał Andrzej KARWETA Dowódca Marynarki Wojennej RP 6. Gen. bryg. Kazimierz GILARSKI Dowódca Garnizonu Warszawa | ||
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caelym
United States6421 Posts
 any theories on how this happened? and someone please translate or annotate the post above^ | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
You basically just had the heart of the Polish government all die in one crash. What a tragedy. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
Considering how rare it is for modern planes to actually crash - the odds of this happening to the Polish government delegation is like <->. Wow! | ||
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GTR
51451 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:16 caelym wrote: FFFUUUUU this is terrible any theories on how this happened? and someone please translate or annotate the post above^somehow got to a level where it hit some trees and caught on fire | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
terrible terrible news | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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MaReK
Australia446 Posts
My home country | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On the list it names numerous people, including the Polish President, his wife, numerous senators, people from the defense minstry and the central governing bank. From the BBC article: "As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said. "According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash. "We are clarifying how many people there were in the [Polish] delegation. According to preliminary reports, 85 members of the delegation and the crew." The Polish Foreign Ministry said the president and his wife were aboard the plane. Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek was also said to have been on board. | ||
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
Media say that crash was caused by trees during the landing, then the fire burst out. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
We got a really important news! And this comes. I was like WTF? | ||
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Kong John
Denmark1020 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
no matter how rich or poor you are. european or african, whatever. my best wishes go out to the friends and family. i know its not easy. | ||
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ahleezay
43 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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nasze_zrodlo
Cape Verde111 Posts
Macabre symbolism is shocking. | ||
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sleeepy
Canada777 Posts
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
In the end it crashed in the trees at a high velocity and broke into pieces. Again, why it was flying so low, no one really knows yet. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:41 sleeepy wrote: Considering this happened during the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre and that relations between Russia and Poland have been a bit shaky for the previous year and a half I'm not ruling out foul play just yet. It's hard to imagine developed nations resorting to assassination on such a scale in modern times. The international fallout of such an action would far outweigh any advantages of temporarily beheading a government. | ||
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2SCV1cup
69 Posts
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ColorsOfRainbow
Germany354 Posts
ps: is ur 1. minister still his brother ? i hope he's well even if this both guys was complete against everything from the eu and it help the eu ... its not nice if someone die better if they retreat | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:37 ahleezay wrote: yeah our government sucked... it may change now. That is not the way to change government and not the way to look at this piece of news. Although many people may not have liked Kaczynski, the fact that he has many connections, many friends, great political experience, and other possibilities is something that will only hurt Poland. The same can be said of the rest of the people on the plane. People may not agree with their policies, but their some of the smartest and best people the country has to offer. | ||
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sleeepy
Canada777 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:44 Jyvblamo wrote: It's hard to imagine developed nations resorting to assassination on such a scale in modern times. The international fallout of such an action would far outweigh any advantages of temporarily beheading a government. Well I didn't say it was the likely cause, I just didn't write it off because a news report said the plane flew into trees and crashed. And think about the various other factions besides the Russian government that could have been responsible. Nationalists, neo-nazis, extremists, etc all could be responsible and acting on their own agenda. The timing does seem rather suspicious and I'd like to see a very thorough investigation before I can call it an accident. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4729 Posts
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:44 Jyvblamo wrote: It's hard to imagine developed nations resorting to assassination on such a scale in modern times. The international fallout of such an action would far outweigh any advantages of temporarily beheading a government. I don't think Russia had any part in this, although I'm sure it will drive anyone inclined toward conspiracy theories crazy. Poland still has its Prime Minister, Donald Tusk. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
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Golden Ghost
Netherlands1041 Posts
There will be elections for a new president in the fall but I assume this was already planned otherwise it's one hell of a quick reaction. The remaining government will naturally meet today to determine the next steps. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 10 2010 17:55 Golden Ghost wrote: The news I just read said the plane lost it's bearings due to heavy mist in the area and that there were 132 deaths in the crash. There will be elections for a new president in the fall but I assume this was already planned otherwise it's one hell of a quick reaction. The remaining government will naturally meet today to determine the next steps. In theory, new elections should take place within a month or two (I can't remember the exact span of time, sorry, all I remember is that they have to be announced within 10 days) after the president can no longer perform his duties. | ||
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starfries
Canada3508 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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myzael
Poland605 Posts
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saritenite
Singapore1680 Posts
If Singapore's cabinet were the ones, we'd be dead already. Stay strong Poland, stay strong. | ||
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barth
Ireland1272 Posts
Quite a tragedy. By Lidia Kelly SMOLENSK, Russia (Reuters) - Polish President Lech Kaczynski was killed when a plane carrying 132 people crashed in thick fog on its approach to a Russian airport Saturday, killing everyone on board, officials said. Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek and several senior government officials were also among those on board the Tupolev Tu-154 plane, which came down as it neared Smolensk airport in western Russia. Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufyev, speaking on Russian television, said there were no survivors. Polish state news agency PAP also reported that there were no survivors. Television pictures showed the burning fuselage and fragments of the plane scattered in a forest. The crash occurred about 2 km (1.3 miles) from Smolensk airport. "The plane caught fire after the crash. Teams began attempting to pull out passengers from the badly damaged airplane," said a Polish Foreign Ministry spokesman in Warsaw. Kaczynski's wife Maria was also on board, along with several high-ranking government officials. They included the chief of Poland's military Franciszek Gagor and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer. In the case of a president's death, the speaker of the lower chamber of parliament, Bronislaw Komorowski, takes over as head of state, Komorowski's assistant Jerzy Smolinski, told Reuters. Kaczynski had been flying to Katyn, near Smolensk, to commemorate Russian and Polish victims of Soviet leader Josef Stalin. Thousands of Polish prisoners of war and intellectuals were murdered at Katyn by Soviet forces in spring 1940 in an enduring symbol for Poles of their suffering under Soviet rule. Families of those killed at Katyn were also on board the plane, the Polish government official at the airport said. (Additional reporting by Robin Paxton and Maria Kiselyova in Moscow and Gabriela Baczynska and Chris Borowski in Warsaw; writing by Robin Paxton; editing by Andrew Roche) http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE6390PK20100410?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
rip good luck to poland O_O | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4729 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + From delegations list, this people were supposed to be on the plane but someone might have missed it RP stands for "Rzeczpospolita Polska" -formal name of the country Pan Lech KACZYŃSKI President RP Pani Maria KACZYŃSKA First Lady Official delegation : 1. Pan Ryszard KACZOROWSKI Former president of polish governamnt during communist times 2. Pan Krzysztof PUTRA Vice Chairman to Sejm (congres) RP 3. Pan Jerzy SZMAJDZIŃSKI Vice Chairman to Sejm (congres) RP 4. Pani Krystyna BOCHENEK Vice Chairman to Senate RP 5. Pan Jerzy BAHR Ambassador RP to Russian Fedaration 6. Pan Władysław STASIAK Chief of Presidents office 7. Pan Aleksander SZCZYGŁO Chief of National Security Bureau 8. Pan Jacek SASIN Vice Chief of President office, Secretarty of state (not as important as in US) 9. Pan Paweł WYPYCH Secretary of state in Presidents office 10. Pan Mariusz HANDZLIK UnderSecretary of state in Presidents office 11. Pan Andrzej KREMER UnderSecretary of state in Ministry of Foreign affairs 12. Pan Stanisław KOMOROWSKI UnderSecretary of state in ministry of defense 13. Pan Tomasz MERTA Undersecretary Stanu w MKiDN 14. Gen. Franciszek GĄGOR Chief of General Staff 15. Pan Andrzej PRZEWOŹNIK Secretary ROPWiM 16. Pan Maciej PŁAŻYŃSKI Prezes Stowarzyszenia „Wspólnota Polska” 17. Pan Mariusz KAZANA Director of protocol Representatives of Congress nad Senate 1. Pan Leszek DEPTUŁA Congressman 2. Pan Grzegorz DOLNIAK Congressman 3. Pani Grażyna GĘSICKA Congressman 4. Pan Przemysław GOSIEWSKI Congressman 5. Pan Sebastian KARPINIUK Congressman 6. Pani Izabela JARUGA – NOWACKA Congressman 7. Pan Zbigniew WASSERMANN Congressman 8. Pani Aleksandra NATALLI – ŚWIAT Congressman 10. Pan Arkadiusz RYBICKI Congressman 11. Pani Jolanta SZYMANEK – DERESZ Congressman 12. Pan Wiesław WODA Congressman 13. Pan Edward WOJTAS Congressman 14. Pani Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator 15. Pan Stanisław ZAJĄC Senator OSOBY TOWARZYSZĄCE 1. Pan Janusz KOCHANOWSKI Rzecznik Praw Obywatelskich 2. Pan Sławomir SKRZYPEK Chief of central bank 3. Pan Janusz KURTYKA Chief of Institue of National Memory 4. Pan Janusz KRUPSKI Chief of the combatants Bureau Represntatives of Churches and Religion 1. Ks. Bp. gen. dyw. Tadeusz PŁOSKI Ordynariusz Polowy Wojska Polskiego -Catholic Bishop in polish military 2. Abp gen. bryg. Miron CHODAKOWSKI Prawosławny Ordynariusz Wojska Polskiego -Ortodox Archbishop in polish military 3. Ks. płk Adam PILCH Ewangelickie Duszpasterstwo Polo to polowe-prist in polish military 4. Ks. ppłk Jan OSIŃSKI Ordynariat Polowy Wojska Polskiego Represnatatives of families and institutions (of people murdered in Katyn during WWII) 1. Pan Edward DUCHNOWSKI Sekretarz Generalny Związku Sybiraków 2. Ks. prałat Bronisław GOSTOMSKI 3. Ks. Józef JONIEC Prezes Stowarzyszenia Parafiada 4. Ks. Zdzisław KRÓL Kapelan Warszawskiej Rodziny Katyńskiej 1987-2007 5. Ks. Andrzej KWAŚNIK Kapelan Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI 7. Pani Bożena ŁOJEK Prezes Polskiej Fundacji Katyńskiej 8. Pan Stefan MELAK Prezes Komitetu Katyńskiego 9. Pan Stanisław MIKKE Wiceprzewodniczący ROPWiM 10. Pani Bronisława ORAWIEC - LOFFLER 11. Pani Katarzyna PISKORSKA 12. Pan Andrzej SARIUSZ – SKĄPSKI Prezes Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 13. Pan Wojciech SEWERYN 14. Pan Leszek SOLSKI 15. Pani Teresa WALEWSKA – PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Fundacja „Golgota Wschodu” 16. Pani Gabriela ZYCH 17. Pani Ewa BĄKOWSKA wnuczka Gen. bryg. Mieczysława Smorawińskiego 18. Pani Maria BOROWSKA 19. Pan Bartosz BOROWSKI 20. Pan Dariusz MALINOWSKI Representatives of Armed Forces 1. Gen. broni Bronisław KWIATKOWSKI Opartive commander of polish armed forces 2. Gen. broni pil. Andrzej BŁASIK Chief of Polish Air Forces 3. Gen. dyw. Tadeusz BUK Chief of Army 4. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI -Commander of special forces 5. Wiceadmirał Andrzej KARWETA Chief of Navy 6. Gen. bryg. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander of Warsaw garnison | ||
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
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ahleezay
43 Posts
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
1) Poland has had very outdated airfleet, due to cuts in spending; few years ago the helicopter of the Polish prime minister (Miller) crashed. The Tupolevs were called "flying coffins". In addiiton the safety procedures were pretty low - many important people could fly on the same plane. Newspapers have been writing about it for years. 2) The Polish political scene became very divided mostly due to actions of Kaczynski brothers. Kaczynski - is not really liked; in fact many people dont like any parts of the government/MPs and write that it would be cool if 5 more planes crashed. There were many changes at the political scene in last years (which is good), and some form of a two party system is slwoly forming (very bad). Basically there are two similar parties civic platform (PO) and law and justice (PIS). Kaczynski's brother was the leader of PIS; Kaczynski never really supported PO and only cared for PIS, what led to lots of criticism. 3) The presidential elections were supposed to happen in around 10 months I think; according to the falsified polls - Kaczynski was supposed to lose. Yea, the polls in Poland have usually really weird predictions and noone really trusts them despite the fact we have a free market. Newspapers also write about it pretty often; especially independant media. According to the polls Kaczynski was supposed to lose the last elections by a great margin, but he won. Anyway, PO made some form of a preliminaries (usa-style) which was a complete novelty here; and drawn a candidate (Komorowski); it was not clear who would become a candidate of PIS - probably Kaczynski again (although he was sick). 4) There are allready rumors that Russias shot him down. I suppose the next step will be acussing PO of this. (the standards in Polish politics are really low) 5) I wonder what will happen during the elections; maybe they will make Kaczynski some sort of a martyr who "was always there when needed" (he never proposed any good law etc., he only cared about showing up at various events), in order to boost up the PIS candidate's chances (probably his brother). | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:19 Magic84 wrote: Was he a good president? At least it was some forest area and not city, damn plane crashes suck. No, he was not. The thing is nobody deserves to die and he wouldn't stay a president for much longer, seeing as how elections were to be held in autumn anyway. | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:19 Magic84 wrote: Was he a good president? At least it was some forest area and not city, damn plane crashes suck. Controversial figure The BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw says the president was flying in a Tupolev 154, a plane that was designed in the 1960s and capable of carrying more than 100 passengers. The Polish Foreign Ministry said the president and his wife were aboard the plane. Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek was also said to have been on board. Mr Kaczynski has been a controversial figure in Polish politics, advocating a right-wing Catholic agenda. He has opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes. This is from the BBC article. I think it is accurate, in my opinion. Many people didn't like his agenda, and thought that the way he muscled his way into politics and began to disregard other branches of Polish government was brash. | ||
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nasze_zrodlo
Cape Verde111 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4729 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:27 nasze_zrodlo wrote: All polish politician are the same (EU enthusiasts and socialists) so that plane crush will change nothing. You couldn't be more wrong. | ||
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Gilgamesh33
United States28 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
Suggesting it's PO's fault is and will be ridiculous, but as we all know - everything is possible in Poland. Polls usually aren't accurate but this tragedy makes Bronislaw Komorowski the most probable winner of the election. | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:27 nasze_zrodlo wrote: All polish politicians are the same (EU enthusiasts and socialists) so that plane crush will change nothing. This is just wrong. On April 10 2010 18:30 Gilgamesh33 wrote: April fools, you're just adding a 0... Wait.. And this is not funny. | ||
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
He is absolutely true; the myth of leaving EU is just a myth used by PIS; they never support it in ANY way. The only difference between the parties is that PIS doesnt want the euro, and PO does. Im very currious how will this distract the whole election process; I suppose the "martyr effect" will boost PIS chances of reelection significantly; thus the only people who would benefit from such an assasination would be USA; which is fully supported by the retarded politicians. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
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UCSB.Gosu
United States39 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4729 Posts
PS. And yeah thats true Manitou, thats way i told people to take close look at the end of the list... | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:35 Green_Ranger wrote: He is absolutely true; the myth of leaving EU is just a myth used by PIS; they never support it in ANY way. The only difference between the parties is that PIS doesnt want the euro, and PO does. Im very currious how will this distract the whole election process; I suppose the "martyr effect" will boost PIS chances of reelection significantly; thus the only people who would benefit from such an assasination would be USA; which is fully supported by the retarded politicians. Yes, because that's all there is to it. Whether or not they want to leave the EU and / or join the Eurozone. Joining the EU was inevitable and every non-extremist party understands that. Realizing that doesn't make you pro-EU in any way whatsoever. | ||
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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stormssc
Poland125 Posts
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:37 Silvanel wrote: Lol.....how would USA benefit from it.....thats just ridiculus. PS. And yeah thats true Manitou, thats way i told people to take close look at the end of the list... PIS fully supports the creation of an anti ballistic missile base in Poland by USA. In fact, they want to PAY usa for creating it; despite the fact that it only creates a threat in case of an russia-usa atomic war - these idiots want to make the base just near Warsaw. You see, USA is just the same as Russia and only cares for itself (which is cruel but true); the only difference is that "our friends" have better marketing. The Russians said that if the Polish gov wont even inspect the bases (LOL!), the usa can just put normal a-bombs there. Anyway, cgs for a government which makes Warsaw a city that is supposed to be hit by an atomic bomb. Although to remain true, according to the Russian (and probably NATO too) agenda, in case of a war they will make an "atomic road" through Poland into Germany. Anyway, I dont think many people here can discuss such politics; most people can only say that "the other party is bad"; which is in fact true, both suck. | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
i wonder how poland will deal with this... how will the vacant spots in government be filled. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:45 Green_Ranger wrote: PIS fully supports the creation of an anti ballistic missile base in Poland by USA. In fact, they want to PAY usa for creating it; despite the fact that it only creates a threat in case of an russia-usa atomic war - these idiots want to make the base just near Warsaw. You see, USA is just the same as Russia and only cares for itself (which is cruel but true); the only difference is that "our friends" have better marketing. The Russians said that if the Polish gov wont even inspect the bases (LOL!), the usa can just put normal a-bombs there. Anyway, cgs for a government which makes Warsaw a city that is supposed to be hit by an atomic bomb. Although to remain true, according to the Russian (and probably NATO too) agenda, in case of a war they will make an "atomic road" through Poland into Germany. Anyway, I dont think many people here can discuss such politics; most people can only say that "the other party is bad"; which is in fact true, both suck. And as we all know a russian-american conflict is highly probable. Eh... What you are referring to in the last part of your post was absolutely true - in the years of the Warsaw Pact. A long time ago. | ||
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1564 Posts
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Magic84
Russian Federation1381 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:33 Deimos0 wrote: Kaczynski was controversial president indeed. He (as well as his brother) often was attacked by independent media for favouring catholic standards and conservative approach to politics. Suggesting it's PO's fault is and will be ridiculous, but as we all know - everything is possible in Poland. Polls usually aren't accurate but this tragedy makes Bronislaw Komorowski the most probable winner of the election. Often people who get trashed in media are good guys, i don't believe in independent media that is popular. Was he actually doing anything other than talking, something visible to the eye like improving environment and nations health or morale? Hopefully it was a honest accident. How many families lost their relatives and hurting now, crap. Spirits of the katyn are unrest and took sacrifices for the anniversary. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4729 Posts
I dont know what to say, you make no fucking sense. How disturbing a country that is already supporting most of US agendas would help help USA is beyond my understanding. And whether our government wants that base or not, doesnt matter, what matters is that US does not want it (couse of Russia objections). END of story. Your view of both international and national policy is very flawed IMHO. | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
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deL
Australia5540 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On April 10 2010 18:56 Magic84 wrote: Often people who get trashed in media are good guys, i don't believe in independent media that is popular. Was he actually doing anything other than talking, something visible to the eye like improving environment and nations health or morale? Hopefully it was a honest accident. How many families lost their relatives and hurting now, crap. Spirits of the katyn are unrest and took sacrifices for the anniversary. Kaczynski was strongly dedicated to his (and his brother's) view of Poland as independent and free country. This obviously affected relations with Russia and EU countries. At least he had vision of how Poland should look like. In my opinion he was too dependant on his brother and it probably was one of his most important weaknesses. He didn't seem too active also (as president). | ||
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Latham
9560 Posts
This is a huge tragedy. We lost a lot of our ministers, and MOST of our military commanders which is a HUGE deal, that a lot of the world media marginalise. It's partly due to the airport in Smolensk. The runway is 1500m long and without proper guiding lights at the sides (the standard is 2000m of runway for planes). Like people have stated before me, it's also due to the negligence of our airfleet. Our ministers couldn't find the money to upgrade it for many years. It's also unheard of, that all of our staff are on 1 FUCKING PLANE. This is a huge blow to us. Even if our constitution clearly says that these people can be replaced in a strictly administrative manner, it will still be some time before our country's administration is back up and running like it was before. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3423 Posts
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Usul
Germany150 Posts
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:08 Latham wrote: couldn't find the money to upgrade it for many years. They just* spent 70 milionów zł [ ~ $ 25 milion] on heavy modernization on this very plane. *[ this or last year] | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I think later on the government officials will board seperate planes :/ | ||
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HiOT
Sweden1000 Posts
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koziol
Poland768 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:04 Integra wrote: Only strange thing about this is why they had so many leaders on the SAME airplane. I know it is procedure in USA as in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland to at least put the leaders in as many various transportation vehicles as possible so that If something would happen to one transportation then at least the other leaders would make it. Our government ( Tusk and other ministers) werent on that plane - this rule is also used in Poland. People on the plane were mostly from Law and Justice party or connected with them - boss of National Bank, chef of the IPN - they are all from Law and Justice 'environment'. And the conspiracy theories are everywhere at the moment (most of my friends I spoke to, they said it could not be an coincidence) - most of the people in Poland 'dosent like' Russia and this plane crush will only cause that the anger will grow. Sad day for Poland. | ||
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Infernus
Norway222 Posts
I heard that they crashed like 1 KM away from the airport? | ||
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
However we have no rule about military officials. It's second heavy hit on military forces after Casa catastrophy. | ||
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Latham
9560 Posts
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
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BloodDrunK
Bangladesh2767 Posts
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SarcasticOne
Australia213 Posts
am so sorry to hear that, thoughts and condolences go to all family members of those on the plane, as well as all the people of poland | ||
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Latham
9560 Posts
My father knew and was friends with some of the military staff on the plane T.T. They sometimes came and visited our house. It sucks ass when you personally know the people involved in a crash =/ | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:15 evanthebouncy! wrote: oh god... I think later on the government officials will board separate planes :/ Yes. I believe this is how many countries do it, to an extent. You, generally, don't want so many important people on a single plane. | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:13 Rewera wrote: They just* spent 70 milionów zł [ ~ $ 25 milion] on heavy modernization on this very plane. *[ this or last year] Do you have a source for this? TY | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:33 Latham wrote: It was due to fog that the plane clipped the trees =\ Let's not jump to conclusions yet. There will be an investigation and even now there's talk about a lot of things that were wrong with the landing attempt: - poor airport infrastructure (lack of lights, crappy guidance systems etc.) - fog - stress - the plane itself etc. etc. Can't know for sure until they find the black box. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
this is super big news, very rare occurance....my heart goes out to the polish people | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:24 Infernus wrote: I heard that they crashed like 1 KM away from the airport? Plane crashes are always (pretty much) at take-off or landing | ||
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:34 Qwertify wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2010 19:13 Rewera wrote: They just* spent 70 milionów zł [ ~ $ 25 milion] on heavy modernization on this very plane. *[ this or last year] Do you have a source for this? TY One Source From Source: 9 kwietnia z konsorcjum firm MAW Telecom i Polit-Elektronik podpisano umowę o wartości blisko 70 mln zł, dokładnie 69.636.468 zł. This Tupolev returned from modernization on January 5, 2010 second one is still there. | ||
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spets1
58 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + sorry | ||
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Bob123
Korea (North)259 Posts
1: This has to be a joke --- Oh dear, it's not! 2: Conspiracy! We know Russia dislikes Poland, and crashing when flying to mark the anniversary of a Soviet massacre of Poles? 3: No, it's probably just a terrible accident with coincidental circumstances. What a tragedy! My GF (polish) and her mother are pretty much in shock right now. What will happen now? Condolences from Sweden. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
not funny, and you are doing it wrong too. Quite a big blow for Poland | ||
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Number41
United States130 Posts
Stay strong, as you've always been! | ||
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
be strong Poland, we know you are! | ||
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Qwertify
United States2531 Posts
On April 10 2010 19:48 Rewera wrote: One Source This Tupolev returned from modernization on January 5, 2010 second one is still there. Thank you for this. | ||
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
If so, it leads to interesting questions - who will pick his substitute. We had the problem of the NBP doing (or not doing) a booking operation in order to support the budget - and there was a draw in voting; the new person will be able to change the result. On April 10 2010 18:58 Silvanel wrote: Green_Ranger I dont know what to say, you make no fucking sense. How disturbing a country that is already supporting most of US agendas would help help USA is beyond my understanding. And whether our government wants that base or not, doesnt matter, what matters is that US does not want it (couse of Russia objections). END of story. Your view of both international and national policy is very flawed IMHO. People are idiots, I believe that the martyr effect will work. Kaczynski was sick anyway, and didnt want to participate in the elections. Now his brother can stand (the one who doesnt even have a wife). There were terrorist attacks in Spain - it drastically changed the results. That guy (sorry dont remember his name) was murdered in Holland - it dramatically changed the results of the elections. On April 10 2010 18:56 Magic84 wrote: Often people who get trashed in media are good guys, i don't believe in independent media that is popular. Was he actually doing anything other than talking, something visible to the eye like improving environment and nations health or morale? Hopefully it was a honest accident. How many families lost their relatives and hurting now, crap. Spirits of the katyn are unrest and took sacrifices for the anniversary. He wasnt such a good guy; at one point he vetoed all the actions of the government and basically wanted to stop ANY reforms and changes in the law; even the good ones. | ||
KwarK
United States42689 Posts
On April 10 2010 20:21 Number41 wrote: That's horrible! My condolences to the Polish people. Stay strong, as you've always been! | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
How is it still possible to crash on a landing like that with auto-pilot? | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
That's fucking retarded. Yea planes are still the safest way to travel but when something wrong happen you are in a terrible situation with basicly the whole army and political hierarchy gone. | ||
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FreeDoM[YA]
Canada855 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
My condolences to the Polish ppl . | ||
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Loanshark
China3094 Posts
My condolences. Here's an English link, just Wikipedia, not news article, dunno if it's been posted or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
One of many | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
Holy crap. Edit: OK that might've come off sounding a little harsh, but I stand by it, don't pretend this would have been big news had it been a passenger jet. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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Tal
United Kingdom1015 Posts
I've never heard of anything like this in recent history...my condolences to Poland. Edit...also can someone fix the thread title spelling? It's catastrophe. | ||
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Maenander
Germany4926 Posts
On April 10 2010 21:40 Jibba wrote: I am so so sorry. The scope of this is just unbelievable. How is it still possible to crash on a landing like that with auto-pilot? According to the german media it was very foggy and they tried to land 4 times before crashing. They also report that the russian control tower told the pilot that it would be better to land elsewhere, but he tried the landing in Smolensk anyway. I hope Poland can quickly recover from this tragedy. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
This will probably lead to some rule that governments should take serveral planes as transport to avoid this kinda stuff. | ||
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
judging from the comments of people who behave like retarded sheep* I think the results of the upcoming presidental elections will be much altered from the predictions made before the crash - the PIS candidate (probably other Kaczynski twin), will win *actually one of the main PIS spin doctor's used a similar expression about his own supporters | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
Poll: Accident? (Vote): purely accidental (Vote): seems shady (Vote): likely was an assasination | ||
KizZBG
u gotta skate8152 Posts
Talk about putting all of your eggs in one basket. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
How can this even happen, like wtf man? Edit: My condolences to the Polish, this is a terrible tragedy | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9021 Posts
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
It is standard procedure to abort landing and go to another airport if the second approach fails. It is also said that the Polish president was known to conflict with pilots at least once before in a similar situation. In August 2008, on approach to Tbilisi, the pilot refused to carry out the landing due to safety concerns. The president got mad and promised to punish the pilot. | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On April 10 2010 22:26 Random() wrote: According to some Russian sources, the pilots were advised not to land in Smolensk due to the weather conditions. The plane made three landing approaches, and still could not land. On the fourth approach, it crashed. It is standard procedure to abort landing and go to another airport if the second approach fails. It is also said that the Polish president was known to conflict with pilots at least once before in a similar situation. In August 2008, on approach to Tbilisi, the pilot refused to carry out the landing due to safety concerns. The president got mad and promised to punish the pilot. Yeah I read that in an article on yahoo... the plane was advised to go to one of two alternate airports but they insisted on landing at the one that was suffering from fog. Probably all there is to the investigation. Unfortunate to say the least. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
But that's just irresponsible | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 10 2010 22:21 konadora wrote: Just saw this on the news, went like wtf? How can this even happen, like wtf man? Edit: My condolences to the Russians, this is a terrible tragedy the fuck ?! | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 10 2010 22:08 Maenander wrote: According to the german media it was very foggy and they tried to land 4 times before crashing. They also report that the russian control tower told the pilot that it would be better to land elsewhere, but he tried the landing in Smolensk anyway. I hope Poland can quickly recover from this tragedy. I saw that, but landings are almost entirely automatic these days. Why on earth were they doing it manually in fog? Maybe that Russian airport didn't have the proper equipment? | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 10 2010 22:32 Jibba wrote: I saw that, but landings are almost entirely automatic these days. Why on earth were they doing it manually in fog? Maybe that Russian airport didn't have the proper equipment? Yup it didn't have the proper equipment. That wasn't a civil airporl with the highest technology, that was a military airport. | ||
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micronesia
United States24680 Posts
On April 10 2010 22:32 Jibba wrote: I saw that, but landings are almost entirely automatic these days. Why on earth were they doing it manually in fog? Maybe that Russian airport didn't have the proper equipment? Generally it isn't entirely automated, and besides it wasn't a major airport as already said. This kind of stuff happens all the time... politicians or non-technical people make decisions about whether or not to do something, completely disregarding the experts telling them not to... look at the Challenger disaster. Very unfortunate though. | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
yeah woops lol -_- what i think and what i type keep getting wrong | ||
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Tom Phoenix
1114 Posts
This is practically guaranteed to stir up conspiracy theories, especially since it occured in Russia of all places. EDIT: Another tragedy in a streak of them in Polish history... | ||
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MacWorld
Sweden227 Posts
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FragKrag
United States11552 Posts
terrible | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
i wonder though why the fuck the entire military leadership was travelling on board of one single vehicle. really irresponsible. should be np for the generals to order their own air force plane. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
I always hated that guy but my god so many people, and so many "important" people in that plane :S On April 10 2010 22:28 micronesia wrote: Yeah I read that in an article on yahoo... the plane was advised to go to one of two alternate airports but they insisted on landing at the one that was suffering from fog. Probably all there is to the investigation. Unfortunate to say the least. Man if thats what happened again (the president telling him to land anyways) then FUCK YOU Mr. Kaczynski I hope you burn in hell. :S so sad | ||
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kimchiterran
Poland81 Posts
1. Our goverments plane Tu-154 is almost 40 years old already and still not exchanged for new machine (there is a second one too still in use). In fact, they decided to upgrade/repair it once again last year and plane came back from the service in January '10. 2. It was a heavy fog (sight of range ~500 meters). Russian pilot for Reuters reported there is no way this plane should even try to land in these conditions. 3. Airport in Smolensk they tried to land was formerly (till December '09) a military one, with shorter starting/landing lanes compared to the regular airports and lacking anti-fog equipment. 4. Half an hour before Polish plane arrived, the other plane (Russian, with some officials too) was about to land in Smolensk, but control tower crew asked them to move back to the other airport due extremely bad weather conditions (fog). And they moved back. 5. Same thing happened when Polish plane arrived, control tower asked them to try airport in Moscow or Minsk, due thick fog around. Somehow Polish pilot refused and tried to land... 4 times in a row. But conditions were too bad, so plane made just a few circles around the airport to make another attempt. 6. Even after 4 attempts (what I've heard is the plane was flying almost 2 hours around, hoping for better conditions?) pilot tried to land but having no anti-fog equipment in Smolensk, he realized that position of plane is wrong... too late. He tried to lift off, but Tu-154 is a huge plane, he cut his wing on the trees and plane crashed 1500 meters later. What a shame we lost so many important officials in a single crash. Edit: and yeah, scenario above with our own president forcing pilot to land despite the extremely bad conditions is... possible. We had a similar story in summer '08, when pilot of goverment's plane decided not to land in Asia and changed their route. Our president (Kaczynski) was extremely angry and was trying to punish pilot and take his pilot licence after the trip (can't find the exact source though). /R | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
no sorry, this is just bullshit.do you seriously think that he would actually force the pilot to change his route/tell him where and when to land? comon sense dude, the guy/s piloting were in charge and if you wanna blame someone for bad decisions, its the pilot and people arround him, not president | ||
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Tomer
United States105 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
But, how can Poland still use the Tu-154? Even Vietnam ditched these planes a decade ago. | ||
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Rewera
Poland354 Posts
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FonzeXD
United States220 Posts
Sad day, but not for Germans! | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
On April 11 2010 00:00 FonzeXD wrote: Poland lost all of its important people.. Sad day, but not for Germans! retarded? /edit i normally dont make these kind of posts, but this is mindblowingly stupid and offending. | ||
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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snotboogie
Australia3550 Posts
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
On April 11 2010 00:02 snotboogie wrote: Am I the only one thinking assassination? indeed, 70 years ago, thats why they were going there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre but not now | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
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Usul
Germany150 Posts
On April 11 2010 00:00 FonzeXD wrote: Poland lost all of its important people.. Sad day, but not for Germans! Wow, you're an idiot! On April 11 2010 00:02 snotboogie wrote: Am I the only one thinking assassination? I hope so. So far the majority seems to be sensible and doesn't fall for conspiracy theories. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
it's indeed a "cursed" place. The elite was murdered there few decades ago, and now, again, the elite dies just few kilometers from Katyn. And the final decision about landing or not is always in the hands of pilots crew. | ||
JWD
United States12607 Posts
Poland is a great and beautiful country, this is a horrible tragedy. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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GoShox
United States1837 Posts
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stormssc
Poland125 Posts
On April 10 2010 23:52 Caphe wrote: But, how can Poland still use the Tu-154? Even Vietnam ditched these planes a decade ago. Plane that crashed today was put into maintenance very recently, and it did get upgraded etc. Maintenance cost was pretty big, as far as I remember. Other Polish delegation did use this plane a couple of days ago, and it was 100% operational. I do not think the crash was caused by plane's bad technical condition. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Now, to summarize the posts about the causes of this disaster: - Putting many important figures on a single plane. - Choosing to land at an unsafe airport despite recommendations to land elsewhere. - Attempting to land in extremely unsafe weather conditions. - Attempting to land 4 times instead of backing off after 2 attempts -- the standard procedure. If you ask me, this was not an accident, but a tragic case of human negligence. It is not clear who is to blame (although the pilots must share some of it), but multiple people should have made decisions that would have avoided this disaster. The flight recorders should tell us more. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On April 10 2010 23:33 Itachii wrote: " scenario above with our own president forcing pilot to land despite the extremely bad conditions is... possible. We had a similar story in summer '08, when pilot of goverment's plane decided not to land in Asia and changed their route. Our president (Kaczynski) was extremely angry and was trying to punish pilot and take his pilot licence after the trip (can't find the exact source though). " no sorry, this is just bullshit.do you seriously think that he would actually force the pilot to change his route/tell him where and when to land? comon sense dude, the guy/s piloting were in charge and if you wanna blame someone for bad decisions, its the pilot and people arround him, not president Yeah theoretically he should have done that, but what do you think how many pilots will, if the president curses at you and says that he'll make sure youre gonna be fired unless you freakin land there, how many will say "I guess that's something I'll just have to accept" and not do what the president says? It's what he should have done and he's to blame for that but it doesnt take away any blame from the president himself,if he wasn't such an idiot none of this would have happened. I'm sorry for talking so much about something that is purely speculation but it's already happened in 08, I dont see why this shouldnt have been the case here either (plz dont tell me I therefore show a lack of common sense) and just the thought of it makes me fucking angry. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On April 11 2010 00:38 stormssc wrote: Plane that crashed today was put into maintenance very recently, and it did get upgraded etc. Maintenance cost was pretty big, as far as I remember. Other Polish delegation did use this plane a couple of days ago, and it was 100% operational. I do not think the crash was caused by plane's bad technical condition. Yep, I did some research and I was wrong. Seems that it is a solid plane but just too much of bad luck. Most of its crash has nothing to do with technical, they all were either bad weather or pilot's mistake. | ||
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economist_
Vietnam719 Posts
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myzael
Poland605 Posts
Your other points are valid to any sane man though Edit: I was referring to Bill307's post | ||
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CrunCher
United States192 Posts
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 11 2010 01:32 Deimos0 wrote: Russians claim that pilots were trying to land against control tower's suggestions. That's exactly what I would be doing in their place too. Not saying stuff like 'Yeah, you know... Our airport wasn't really ready to receive guests today... Sorry' | ||
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
On April 11 2010 01:10 bubblegumbo wrote: I thought stuff like this only happen in Tom Clancy novels... +1. Catastrophe is an understatement..... I'm sure we all know that the country will rebound well. History has shown it. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
I don't care if it seems suspicious, if someone made a mistake. Let experts do their jobs and investigate the case. Losing almost all the important people in the country, i hope Poland will quickly recover, yet another sad day for us... | ||
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radu_c
Romania226 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
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Empyrean
16987 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
Shit. | ||
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SonKiE
United States167 Posts
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Phantom
Canada2151 Posts
NVM, just kept reading the other pages, that would have been funny in my mind tho, if a Minister of Transport woke up and was like, 'wtf i'm president now? | ||
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University
United States263 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 11 2010 02:16 Phantom wrote: i don't know how the Polish government command structure works, but does this mean someone like the Minister of Transportation or something in Poland is now interim president or something? NVM, just kept reading the other pages, that would have been funny in my mind tho, if a Minister of Transport woke up and was like, 'wtf i'm president now? It's all included in Polish constitution. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On April 11 2010 00:10 Usul wrote: Wow, you're an idiot! I hope so. So far the majority seems to be sensible and doesn't fall for conspiracy theories. Just last year a new Polish investigation into the mysterious death of General Sikorski ended. Then it was a terrible tragedy for Poland, this is merely a personal tragedy. | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On April 11 2010 02:18 University wrote: Such a tragedy for the Polish people. My condolences to any of our Polish TL.net friends. I mirror this sentiment. There is not much more to say. | ||
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Ranix
United States666 Posts
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On April 11 2010 02:50 Deimos0 wrote: It's strange how people here can react seriously, while on Polish forums there so many yeasty posts. Thanks TL.net for taking it as seriously as it looks. I hope your countries will never face such tragic day. Now you've gone and said it. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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uglymoose89
United States671 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 11 2010 03:00 uglymoose89 wrote: so this is what it's like to have the top part of the government wiped out.... Actually, Prime Minister is more important than the President here. The entire government is being built by the minister and his party/coalition. President functions mostly as a representative, head of the military and he can veto some stuff in the parliament (more like stall things, the last word belongs to the parliament anyway). Think of the president a bit like the British Queen, boss in theory but not so much in practice. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that a big part of the government officials and entirety of military command highest echelon have died there, which is going to cause a lot of trouble. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Mr. Kaczynski was not the most popular man in Poland, his international obscurity spares him witticisms from tl.net. However he was not the only man who died. Included in the list are the former a former President, the Deputy Speaker of the Senate, Deputy Speaker of Parliament, the Rector of the University of Radom, and Archbishop Miron, ordinary of the Polish army. | ||
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ChaseR
Norway1004 Posts
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Captain Mayhem
Sweden774 Posts
Hope you guys recover quickly :/ | ||
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m0rra
Estonia29 Posts
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On April 11 2010 03:28 ChaseR wrote: kurwa mac....very tragic fixed | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
omg conspiracy??? | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
On April 11 2010 05:03 nitram wrote: Apparently on polish TV, a journalist said that he landed at the same airport and that there was no fog... omg conspiracy??? Journalist plane landed a few hours before the presidential crash | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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frozenclaw
Canada409 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
On April 11 2010 05:31 dcberkeley wrote: I find it very odd and troubling that they put THAT many important people on a single plane... Indeed, they were also on a pretty old, crappy plane... They made some poor decisions, hopefully others learn and prevent something like this from happening again. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
Anyways always sucks when people lives are cut short. | ||
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Likkzi
Poland72 Posts
Biggest WTF since September 11 2001. | ||
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stormssc
Poland125 Posts
On April 11 2010 03:11 Manit0u wrote: Actually, Prime Minister is more important than the President here. The entire government is being built by the minister and his party/coalition. True that. It's not like ENTIRE government is dead. Prime Minister and his Ministers are still alive. President's duties are now held by the marshall of the lower chamber of parliament (I dont really know how would that be in english), as it is written in the Constitution. On April 11 2010 05:34 pat965 wrote: Indeed, they were also on a pretty old, crappy plane... They made some poor decisions, hopefully others learn and prevent something like this from happening again. Trust me, plane was 100% operational. It was just put into very costly maintenance and upgraded etc. It served another delegation a couple of days ago, and it was all fine. | ||
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taichou
Lithuania108 Posts
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
hunt moose. They bagged four. As they started loading the plane for the return trip home, the pilot tells them the plane can take only two moose. The two Poles objected strongly, stating, "Last year we shot four moose, and the pilot let us put them all on board, and he had the same plane as yours." Reluctantly, the pilot gave in and all four were loaded.. Unfortunately, even at full power, the little plane couldn't handle the load and crashed a few minutes after takeoff. Climbing out of the wreck, Stanislaw asked Wladek, "Any idea where we are?" Wladek replied, "I think we're pretty close to where we crashed last year. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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ryuu_
United States1266 Posts
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ZlyKiss
Poland697 Posts
First of all list of ppl that died in that plane. The list of many familiar faces who appeared in the tv on daily basis... so you know them even if you disagreed with them. You see when usual masks of politicians fell off and thier faces show true human emotions, grief (every party lost some of their prominent figures). That list is damn long, secretary of this, chief of that.But not only politicians but top historians, actors, heads of EVERY types of armies, president of olympic comitee, chairman of national bank... WTF About Kaczynski. I didnt like him as a politician, he was divisive but i sensed hes a good human being. I didnt like his brother actions also but its hard to feel anger at them when i know that their old mother is very sick right now, they were changing at her bed in hospital and now this heartbreaking news :/ sorry for my raw english, its hard for me to shape stream of my thoughts today | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
It's interesting that if the President and VP and all the members of congress are killed, there is still someone who is supposed to take power in the states. Interesting fact. Here's the full list under the VP for the states. President pro tempore of the Senate If he dies then... Secretary of State Secretary of the Treasury Secretary of Defense Attorney General Secretary of the Interior Secretary of Agriculture Secretary of Commerce Secretary of Labor Secretary of Health and Human Services Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Secretary of Transportation Secretary of Energy Secretary of Education Secretary of Veterans Affairs Secretary of Homeland Security Personally, I would think either Homeland Security or Defence should be higher on the list since the downing of two planes would point to assassination and possibly an act of war, but it doesn't matter since it's very unlikely to happen. | ||
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Dullahx
France62 Posts
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
if we do, at all | ||
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domane
Canada1606 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
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Moletrap
United States1297 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 11 2010 05:40 stormssc wrote: the marshall of the lower chamber of parliament (I dont really know how would that be in english) Parliament Speaker, for future reference. And really, I do hate it when people start making fun of real human tragedies (9/11, Haiti, now this etc.). 4chan (as I believe that most of this stuff originates there anyway) should be wiped out. Edit: On another note, this whole situation might be a big chance for the government to push through some resolutions that were being blocked by the president. I know it wouldn't be very nice thing to do, but in politics very few things are nice... | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Walentynowicz "Her firing in August 1980 was the event that led to the strike in the Gdansk Shipyard that paralyzed the Baltic coast and led to the giant wave of strikes in Poland and eventually the creation of Solidarity, of which she became a prominent member." | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
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necros
United States85 Posts
User was temp banned for this post | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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haster27
Taiwan809 Posts
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
(And I'm pretty annoyed by the number of trollish/"funny" posts going on here. Come on, TL. I've only recently joined, but you're better than that.) | ||
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durza
United States667 Posts
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neVern
United States115 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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StarN
United States2587 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this. You really want Joe Biden to become president? | ||
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The_Voidless
United States184 Posts
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this.  | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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illu
Canada2531 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:53 The_Voidless wrote: I wonder what their back up plans are because i know the American back up plan is like very very extensive. That's because US used the backup plan many times in history already. | ||
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ironchef
Canada1350 Posts
best wishes. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On April 11 2010 10:21 illu wrote: That's because US used the backup plan many times in history already. Not on this scale however. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this.  | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this. The funny picture thread could use something like this. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On April 11 2010 12:27 nitram wrote: The funny picture thread could use something like this. You mean a bunch of temp bans by ETT? Yep, sure could. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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danbel1005
United States1319 Posts
On April 11 2010 12:57 Cheerio wrote: Very sorry for Poland. A tragedy indeed. A terrible day today for Poland. But this was not an accident, obviously its not. This happened under interests of u know what country. Go Figure | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The Philippines could use something like this. Fixed ON-topic: Condolence... | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this. Ignoring the whole killing aspect of this suggestion for a moment, what good is removing the current people in power if you do not have a system to get better people into power in their place? | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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sqwert
United States781 Posts
On April 11 2010 09:29 neVern wrote: The US could use something like this. User was temp banned for this post. i dont think the US ever puts all their important people in one place at a time cuz things like this can happen. | ||
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Exteray
United States1094 Posts
Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On April 11 2010 13:41 Exteray wrote: Terrible terrible tragedy )= Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre try reading that. | ||
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vvvVec
Norway85 Posts
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Pape
Serbia419 Posts
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
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KnockOut
Germany22 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 11 2010 16:58 KnockOut wrote: damn, the polish had more luck then germany D: go troll somewhere else I really appreciate the minute of silence during the Gran Derbi yesterday. | ||
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Noob-a-tron
Poland23 Posts
you don't even know how nice it is to hear all this support from you all. thank you all TLers for the kind words, i'm sure that for all Polish ppl on TL.net it's really supportive to see your true interest in this matter. Pole | ||
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Green_Ranger
17 Posts
Oh well, perfect example where the humanity is going. On April 11 2010 13:41 Exteray wrote: Terrible terrible tragedy )= Can someone explain the relationship between Russia and Poland to me though? Russia and Poland had very hard relations for ages; as most neighbor countries. Poland was the only country to ever conquer Moscow, but lost it some time later. You need to understand that what we understand as Soviet Russia is not exactly one country, but a mix of different countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and so on. The relations are very complex, because they are not really based on facts, more like politics. During WW2, Ukrainian nationalists (which arent really equal to Russians) would murder lots of Polish people in many cruel ways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army When Soviet Russia occupied Ukraine, Red Army clashed with UPA too. 70 years later the Polish politicians tried to influence Ukraine and supported the 'orange revolution' there. The problem is that this revolution failed and people like Kaczynski burned all the bridges to other parties active in Ukraine. Why did they burn the bridges? Because Ukraine is a divided country, on the west part live Ukrainians, on the east - Russians. Russia wants the country as their own place of influence. Kaczynski would consider everything Russian evil (which is true to some degree, they just act for themselves; IMO USA does the same, but has better marketing), and had pretty bad relations with Russia in general. Of course the Russians have never admitted/apologized for the Katyn massacre*. You have to understand, that Russia is a 'strange' country - politics affect the way business works there e.g. Kaczynski says that Russians should admit to the Katyn massacre - Russians impose problems with imports from Poland, telling that additional medical exams are needed etc. Thus Kaczynski's actions werent really liked here; few companies lost millions of zlotys just due to bad mouth of the president - and weird ways the Russian administration works. Personally I have no damn idea why the Russians wont apologize for Katyn; I mean, it was done by Stalin, who also starved millions of Ukrainins etc. I also dont understand why the governments are kicking each others ankles, instead of focusing on doing business. Unfortunately doing business is not that easy either, because Poland (just like most of Eu), buys natural resources (mainly gas) from Russia - and Russians usually try to pressure other countries by threatening to turn it off. Kaczynski stood behind countries like Georgia, who wanted to come out of Russians influence - which of course angered the Russians. The average Polish person, is sorta brainwashed by the media; who general speak of Russians in bad way. As far as I know, the same happens in Russian, but to even higher degree. In addition, after all, Russians were the occupants of the country for nearly 50 years and still there are lots of cases that are not solved (problems with export of goods; problems with import of gas; Katyn). *speaking of apologizing; when Germany invaded the Czechs; Poland occupied a small part of it too - Kaczynski apologized for that; this was so damn random, that the Czech ambassador didnt know what to say lol; actually this was one of the good parts of his presidency | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On April 11 2010 20:15 exeexe wrote: There is a rule here stating that you dont put the heads of the state under the same roof at the same time. Now you know why. Guess Poland had not heard of this rule before. Why do you post if you don't even know who exactly died or why they were going to Smolensk? About the most important thing president can do in Poland is to veto acts that passed parliament. Now Marshal of the Sejm (lower house of the Polish parliament) is going to take over his duties. The point here is he's the favourite to win the next presidential election... I have no idea how the death of all generals is going to impact Polish army. We're not at war so it's not as crucial. edit: BTW about the most important people going in different planes it's funny if you think that's the case because president and government going to Bruxelles or somewhere in different planes because they didn't like each other was pretty big deal not so long ago. Those planes were ~100 meters or so from each other on the airport there. I wonder who decided to ignore control tower's warnings and decided to land this time. Kaczynski wanted to fire one of his pilots once because when he was going to Georgia last summer he couldn't force him to land in Tbilisi (just few days after Russian forces crossed borders) instead of Azerbaijan as was planned before flight. | ||
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stormssc
Poland125 Posts
I hope I am wrong. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
jk ... sort of | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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taichou
Lithuania108 Posts
On April 11 2010 20:03 Green_Ranger wrote: Someone already wrote it here; that the accident probably happened because Kaczynski ordered the pilot to land (which happened before). The media dont follow that lead at all, because they are making a hero out of him, despite the fact that there are lots of people who didnt like him before. Oh well, perfect example where the humanity is going. Russia and Poland had very hard relations for ages; as most neighbor countries. Poland was the only country to ever conquer Moscow, but lost it some time later. You need to understand that what we understand as Soviet Russia is not exactly one country, but a mix of different countries like Belarus, Ukraine, Lithuania and so on. The relations are very complex, because they are not really based on facts, more like politics. During WW2, Ukrainian nationalists (which arent really equal to Russians) would murder lots of Polish people in many cruel ways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army When Soviet Russia occupied Ukraine, Red Army clashed with UPA too. 70 years later the Polish politicians tried to influence Ukraine and supported the 'orange revolution' there. The problem is that this revolution failed and people like Kaczynski burned all the bridges to other parties active in Ukraine. Why did they burn the bridges? Because Ukraine is a divided country, on the west part live Ukrainians, on the east - Russians. Russia wants the country as their own place of influence. Kaczynski would consider everything Russian evil (which is true to some degree, they just act for themselves; IMO USA does the same, but has better marketing), and had pretty bad relations with Russia in general. Of course the Russians have never admitted/apologized for the Katyn massacre*. You have to understand, that Russia is a 'strange' country - politics affect the way business works there e.g. Kaczynski says that Russians should admit to the Katyn massacre - Russians impose problems with imports from Poland, telling that additional medical exams are needed etc. Thus Kaczynski's actions werent really liked here; few companies lost millions of zlotys just due to bad mouth of the president - and weird ways the Russian administration works. Personally I have no damn idea why the Russians wont apologize for Katyn; I mean, it was done by Stalin, who also starved millions of Ukrainins etc. I also dont understand why the governments are kicking each others ankles, instead of focusing on doing business. Unfortunately doing business is not that easy either, because Poland (just like most of Eu), buys natural resources (mainly gas) from Russia - and Russians usually try to pressure other countries by threatening to turn it off. Kaczynski stood behind countries like Georgia, who wanted to come out of Russians influence - which of course angered the Russians. The average Polish person, is sorta brainwashed by the media; who general speak of Russians in bad way. As far as I know, the same happens in Russian, but to even higher degree. In addition, after all, Russians were the occupants of the country for nearly 50 years and still there are lots of cases that are not solved (problems with export of goods; problems with import of gas; Katyn). *speaking of apologizing; when Germany invaded the Czechs; Poland occupied a small part of it too - Kaczynski apologized for that; this was so damn random, that the Czech ambassador didnt know what to say lol; actually this was one of the good parts of his presidency Dont put us in same category in Soviet Russia... | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 12 2010 01:14 stormssc wrote: I think that pilots might have been under pressure of generals Well, the chief of our air forces was there too and I don't believe he would go against pilot's judgment, especially if you remember the tragedy we had not so long ago where some high profile military officers died in a plane crash because one of them wanted to sit behind the steers instead of the designated pilot... And I really do hope that this entire thing won't ruin our relations with Russia. I'm not a big fan of them, but picturing them as hostile towards us while promoting USA is a bad move in my opinion. After all, it's good to be friends with Uncle Sam, but he is across the Great Water... | ||
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baqarah
Poland13 Posts
On April 12 2010 02:32 taichou wrote: Dont put us in same category in Soviet Russia... I think he meant we, Poles, consider Soviet Russia as mix of different countries. We know that some countries like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were incorporated by force and we always supported other post-soviet states in their fight to become less dependent from Russia. | ||
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taichou
Lithuania108 Posts
On April 12 2010 04:08 baqarah wrote: I think he meant we, Poles, consider Soviet Russia as mix of different countries. We know that some countries like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia were incorporated by force and we always supported other post-soviet states in their fight to become less dependent from Russia. if thats the case than its ok, im also a Lithuanian Pole, so i kinda share the loss, and a lot of Poles/Lithuanians are bringing flowers and candles to Polish ambassy | ||
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LuCky.
Zimbabwe91 Posts
Also, the presidential aide fell sick just immediately before the plane was scheduled to fly, coincidence? METHINKSNOT. | ||
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On April 12 2010 04:40 LuCky. wrote: If you're going to be flying 89 of Poland's most important officials, you're going to have a very experienced pilot/copilot. it was one of the best and experienced military pilot. | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 12 2010 04:40 LuCky. wrote: I think the Russian government had something to do with it. Foul play? If you're going to be flying 89 of Poland's most important officials, you're going to have a very experienced pilot/copilot. Also, the presidential aide fell sick just immediately before the plane was scheduled to fly, coincidence? METHINKSNOT. lmao -_- It was a pure accident and I'm sure Russians had nothing to do it. Anyway when I saw how Putin and Russian goverment reacted to the whole situation I was positively shocked. Putin taking care of everything by himself? Moscow paying for all of the family members costs of flight/accomodation and other stuff? National mourning in Russia on 12th of April (it's a special day for Russians iirc, anniversary of Gagarin landing on the moon) because of _POLISH_ tragedy? That NEVER ever happened before. And You saw Putin praying together with polish prime minister - Donald Tusk? He helped D.Tusk to stand up from his knees and hugged him, that was so touching... srsly, thanks to Russians for taking care and helping out polish people but that's pretty sad that SUCH a tragedy was needed for Polish-Russian reconciliation | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On April 12 2010 04:40 LuCky. wrote: I think the Russian government had something to do with it. Foul play? If you're going to be flying 89 of Poland's most important officials, you're going to have a very experienced pilot/copilot. Also, the presidential aide fell sick just immediately before the plane was scheduled to fly, coincidence? METHINKSNOT. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6390NQ20100410 "In a further gesture of Russian solidarity, President Dmitry Medvedev expressed his condolences to the Polish nation on Saturday evening in an unprecedented television address. Russia has declared April 12 a day of mourning for the crash." Even Russian television is going to show the 2007 Polish film about the 1940 Katyn massacre | ||
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Endrjuu
13 Posts
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On April 12 2010 05:45 Endrjuu wrote: Next tragedy in our history http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lSaYx6ttuE Beautiful so many invaders, so many uprisings, so many heroes. history had learned us how to fight for freedom. And 10th april 2010 is another sad page in polish history book. Most of the plane crew had HUGE influence in Poland gaining freedom in 1989. Most were very intelligent- doctors, professors. They didn't look at stats , they did what was right for the country, even if it meant disapproval from parts of the society. Not to mention the six out of six most important generals and army leaders. Not to mention president of polish central bank, who was chosen by Global Finance as one of the top3 bank presidents/leaders of all time. Such a sad day, hope the "new"government won't sell our country, because the most important, active and influential people of the 2nd biggest and opposite part died. | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
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Usul
Germany150 Posts
On April 12 2010 04:40 LuCky. wrote: I think the Russian government had something to do with it. Foul play? If you're going to be flying 89 of Poland's most important officials, you're going to have a very experienced pilot/copilot. Also, the presidential aide fell sick just immediately before the plane was scheduled to fly, coincidence? METHINKSNOT. ILLUMINATI ! ! ! ! ! 1111 | ||
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SilentCrono
United States1420 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
On April 12 2010 07:17 nitram wrote: I'm surprised they didn't mention the battle of Vienna. It was the largest cavalry battle in Europe and stopped Europe from an ottoman invasion. And Grunwald was the largest battle in the entire Medieval, it also didn't mention us capturing Kremlin and Moscow (twice) and defeating basically any "superpower" there was. btw. I hate the media... For the past 2 days there has been nothing but live relations of the crash and talking about it over and over and over again on TV. It makes me angry instead of sad... | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
“The head of the air traffic control group gave a command to the crew to put the aircraft into the horizontal position and when the crew did not implement this order, several times gave orders to divert to an alternative airport,” he said. “Despite this, the crew continued the descent. Unfortunately this ended in tragedy,” he said. Odd. Apparently the president ordered the pilot to go ahead with the landing, too? | ||
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On April 13 2010 01:15 Southlight wrote: Odd. Apparently the president ordered the pilot to go ahead with the landing, too? Russian news said that from what they've heard from black box recording, the pilot wasn't ordered to land. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On April 12 2010 18:05 Manit0u wrote: And Grunwald was the largest battle in the entire Medieval, it also didn't mention us capturing Kremlin and Moscow (twice) and defeating basically any "superpower" there was. btw. I hate the media... For the past 2 days there has been nothing but live relations of the crash and talking about it over and over and over again on TV. It makes me angry instead of sad... Not trying to side-track, but this reminds me of 9-11 over here. I came home from school and literally EVERY TV STATION, even obscure niche-market cable stations were doing nothing but looping images of the towers falling over and over and over again, for weeks. I had never seen anything like it before, and hope to never have to again. | ||
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Apexplayer
United States406 Posts
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
On April 12 2010 05:14 Crucifix wrote: 2th of April (it's a special day for Russians iirc, anniversary of Gagarin landing on the moon) wat | ||
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
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EGMachine
United States1643 Posts
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GTR
51451 Posts
On April 13 2010 16:54 fulmetljaket wrote: is there any sort of 'official' listing [in english] of the people who died and what they meant to poland? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash | ||
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On April 10 2010 18:18 Silvanel wrote: I have translated titles and functions of most of the people abroad. Not all them though (only most important). Take a close look at end of the list. List in spoiler. + Show Spoiler + RP stands for "Rzeczpospolita Polska" -formal name of the country Pan Lech KACZYŃSKI President RP Pani Maria KACZYŃSKA First Lady Official delegation : 1. Pan Ryszard KACZOROWSKI Former president of polish governamnt during communist times 2. Pan Krzysztof PUTRA Vice Chairman to Sejm (congres) RP 3. Pan Jerzy SZMAJDZIŃSKI Vice Chairman to Sejm (congres) RP 4. Pani Krystyna BOCHENEK Vice Chairman to Senate RP 5. Pan Jerzy BAHR Ambassador RP to Russian Fedaration 6. Pan Władysław STASIAK Chief of Presidents office 7. Pan Aleksander SZCZYGŁO Chief of National Security Bureau 8. Pan Jacek SASIN Vice Chief of President office, Secretarty of state (not as important as in US) 9. Pan Paweł WYPYCH Secretary of state in Presidents office 10. Pan Mariusz HANDZLIK UnderSecretary of state in Presidents office 11. Pan Andrzej KREMER UnderSecretary of state in Ministry of Foreign affairs 12. Pan Stanisław KOMOROWSKI UnderSecretary of state in ministry of defense 13. Pan Tomasz MERTA Undersecretary Stanu w MKiDN 14. Gen. Franciszek GĄGOR Chief of General Staff 15. Pan Andrzej PRZEWOŹNIK Secretary ROPWiM 16. Pan Maciej PŁAŻYŃSKI Prezes Stowarzyszenia „Wspólnota Polska” 17. Pan Mariusz KAZANA Director of protocol Representatives of Congress nad Senate 1. Pan Leszek DEPTUŁA Congressman 2. Pan Grzegorz DOLNIAK Congressman 3. Pani Grażyna GĘSICKA Congressman 4. Pan Przemysław GOSIEWSKI Congressman 5. Pan Sebastian KARPINIUK Congressman 6. Pani Izabela JARUGA – NOWACKA Congressman 7. Pan Zbigniew WASSERMANN Congressman 8. Pani Aleksandra NATALLI – ŚWIAT Congressman 10. Pan Arkadiusz RYBICKI Congressman 11. Pani Jolanta SZYMANEK – DERESZ Congressman 12. Pan Wiesław WODA Congressman 13. Pan Edward WOJTAS Congressman 14. Pani Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator 15. Pan Stanisław ZAJĄC Senator OSOBY TOWARZYSZĄCE 1. Pan Janusz KOCHANOWSKI Rzecznik Praw Obywatelskich 2. Pan Sławomir SKRZYPEK Chief of central bank 3. Pan Janusz KURTYKA Chief of Institue of National Memory 4. Pan Janusz KRUPSKI Chief of the combatants Bureau Represntatives of Churches and Religion 1. Ks. Bp. gen. dyw. Tadeusz PŁOSKI Ordynariusz Polowy Wojska Polskiego -Catholic Bishop in polish military 2. Abp gen. bryg. Miron CHODAKOWSKI Prawosławny Ordynariusz Wojska Polskiego -Ortodox Archbishop in polish military 3. Ks. płk Adam PILCH Ewangelickie Duszpasterstwo Polo to polowe-prist in polish military 4. Ks. ppłk Jan OSIŃSKI Ordynariat Polowy Wojska Polskiego Represnatatives of families and institutions (of people murdered in Katyn during WWII) 1. Pan Edward DUCHNOWSKI Sekretarz Generalny Związku Sybiraków 2. Ks. prałat Bronisław GOSTOMSKI 3. Ks. Józef JONIEC Prezes Stowarzyszenia Parafiada 4. Ks. Zdzisław KRÓL Kapelan Warszawskiej Rodziny Katyńskiej 1987-2007 5. Ks. Andrzej KWAŚNIK Kapelan Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI 7. Pani Bożena ŁOJEK Prezes Polskiej Fundacji Katyńskiej 8. Pan Stefan MELAK Prezes Komitetu Katyńskiego 9. Pan Stanisław MIKKE Wiceprzewodniczący ROPWiM 10. Pani Bronisława ORAWIEC - LOFFLER 11. Pani Katarzyna PISKORSKA 12. Pan Andrzej SARIUSZ – SKĄPSKI Prezes Federacji Rodzin Katyńskich 13. Pan Wojciech SEWERYN 14. Pan Leszek SOLSKI 15. Pani Teresa WALEWSKA – PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Fundacja „Golgota Wschodu” 16. Pani Gabriela ZYCH 17. Pani Ewa BĄKOWSKA wnuczka Gen. bryg. Mieczysława Smorawińskiego 18. Pani Maria BOROWSKA 19. Pan Bartosz BOROWSKI 20. Pan Dariusz MALINOWSKI Representatives of Armed Forces 1. Gen. broni Bronisław KWIATKOWSKI Opartive commander of polish armed forces 2. Gen. broni pil. Andrzej BŁASIK Chief of Polish Air Forces 3. Gen. dyw. Tadeusz BUK Chief of Army 4. Gen. dyw. Włodzimierz POTASIŃSKI -Commander of special forces 5. Wiceadmirał Andrzej KARWETA Chief of Navy 6. Gen. bryg. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander of Warsaw garnison cliffs: - President and First Lady - Last President on Emmigration - Chief of General Staff (first Pole to fully finish the NATO training/school in US) - Chief of Presidents Office - Chief of National Security Bureau - Vice Chief of President Office, Secretarty of State - Two Vice Chairmans to Congress - Chief of Central Bank (ordered by Global Finance as top3 bank leaders) - Chief of Institue of National Memory 6 out of 6 most important Army Leaders: - Opartive commander of polish armed forces - Chief of Polish Air Forces - Chief of Army - Commander of Special Forces - Chief of Navy - Commander of Warsaw garnison - about 15 important Congressmans and Senators - not mentioned about 10 Under-secretaries - Over 25 bishops and priests in Polish military, as well as Katyn's massacre victims family representators. Most of these people will be irreplaceable IMO =( Poland is now a different country... _ edit. ^ oh, i see wikipedia delivers | ||
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Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
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fulmetljaket
482 Posts
On April 13 2010 17:09 GTR wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash tytyty | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
On April 13 2010 21:28 MaGic~PhiL wrote: The politicans forced the landing to be happening even though the pilot wanted to refuse it strongly is my guess First reviews of black box recordings deny this theory. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
I accept that a lot of people died there and I feel sad for their families but some things that are happening right now in Poland are just out of this world. Why the hell they make a hero out of Kaczynski is beyond me. It could be argued that he did more for Poland with his death than he ever did during his life, but the fact that so many people died because of him (I'm certain this crash was his fault, first he delayed the flight - if he wouldn't they would be arriving in good weather conditions - and then there was a lot of pressure on the pilot, because they were getting late for the ceremonies) kind of counters that. He did a couple good things during his presidency but way more bad things, which makes him overall a pretty bad president. Right now everyone's speaking about him like he was some freaking saint and some news I heard today made me sit down for a moment. They're going to bury him in Wawel... For those of you who don't know, that's where our kings are buried. Mind is blown. Signed: Outraged Pole | ||
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739
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
On April 13 2010 22:19 Manit0u wrote: Ok now. My outrage has reached completely new levels. I accept that a lot of people died there and I feel sad for their families but some things that are happening right now in Poland are just out of this world. Why the hell they make a hero out of Kaczynski is beyond me. It could be argued that he did more for Poland with his death than he ever did during his life, but the fact that so many people died because of him (I'm certain this crash was his fault, first he delayed the flight - if he wouldn't they would be arriving in good weather conditions - and then there was a lot of pressure on the pilot, because they were getting late for the ceremonies) kind of counters that. He did a couple good things during his presidency but way more bad things, which makes him overall a pretty bad president. Right now everyone's speaking about him like he was some freaking saint and some news I heard today made me sit down for a moment. They're going to bury him in Wawel... For those of you who don't know, that's where our kings are buried. Mind is blown. Signed: Outraged Pole Read CruiseR's post and check out latest news to know that this THEORY was denied after watching black boxes, ehhh. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
But even if he didn't, if he wouldn't delay the flight it could all go differently. | ||
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Not_A_Notion
Ireland441 Posts
On April 13 2010 22:19 Manit0u wrote: Ok now. My outrage has reached completely new levels. I accept that a lot of people died there and I feel sad for their families but some things that are happening right now in Poland are just out of this world. Why the hell they make a hero out of Kaczynski is beyond me. It could be argued that he did more for Poland with his death than he ever did during his life, but the fact that so many people died because of him (I'm certain this crash was his fault, first he delayed the flight - if he wouldn't they would be arriving in good weather conditions - and then there was a lot of pressure on the pilot, because they were getting late for the ceremonies) kind of counters that. He did a couple good things during his presidency but way more bad things, which makes him overall a pretty bad president. Right now everyone's speaking about him like he was some freaking saint and some news I heard today made me sit down for a moment. They're going to bury him in Wawel... For those of you who don't know, that's where our kings are buried. Mind is blown. Signed: Outraged Pole Yeah I was kind of wondering about the ret-conning of how awesome he was. In life he seemed a very divisive character, him and his brother. At least that is the impression I've gotten from a couple of my friends who are Polish, though I've not talked to them since the crash. At the same time it's hardly surprising that a President who dies in office would get such an honour, no matter how good or bad his administration was, but I take your point. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17257 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
I lol'd | ||
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Draconizard
628 Posts
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DracoVolantus
Poland231 Posts
On April 13 2010 22:19 Manit0u wrote: Ok now. My outrage has reached completely new levels. I accept that a lot of people died there and I feel sad for their families but some things that are happening right now in Poland are just out of this world. Why the hell they make a hero out of Kaczynski is beyond me. It could be argued that he did more for Poland with his death than he ever did during his life, but the fact that so many people died because of him (I'm certain this crash was his fault, first he delayed the flight - if he wouldn't they would be arriving in good weather conditions - and then there was a lot of pressure on the pilot, because they were getting late for the ceremonies) kind of counters that. He did a couple good things during his presidency but way more bad things, which makes him overall a pretty bad president. Right now everyone's speaking about him like he was some freaking saint and some news I heard today made me sit down for a moment. They're going to bury him in Wawel... For those of you who don't know, that's where our kings are buried. Mind is blown. Signed: Outraged Pole 1. He is a hero becouse he died while being on duty. 2. I think You don't even know where Sikorski is buried, who he was and what he did, but WAIT, You know who our president was! You are so smart! and You know who should be buried where, omg can I be Your friend? 3. There is no mind for You to blow, neither brainless manifestating what You say here on street facebook children. cheers | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
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cz
United States3249 Posts
On April 13 2010 23:05 Manit0u wrote: Black boxes don't show what's going on outside of pilot's cabin. He could've told them that they HAVE to get him on time no matter what before the liftoff or even before he entered the plane. But even if he didn't, if he wouldn't delay the flight it could all go differently. He also apparently, a year earlier, had gone into the flight cabin and ordered a landing against the pilot's judgment. But since that landing was successful he was of course 'decisive' and 'strong' and 'dedicated'. Doesn't look so good when it doesn't work out, if that is indeed what happened. Honestly it was likely his arrogance and requirements that lead to the landing attempts at the fog-covered airport, rather than a different one. He's the guy who ran the red light while driving a school bus and killed everyone in a crash, probably. | ||
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nitram
Canada5412 Posts
On April 14 2010 06:43 summerloud wrote: that was the best planecrash ever. too bad that stuff like this doesnt happen more often You suck at trolling. | ||
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cz
United States3249 Posts
On April 14 2010 06:43 summerloud wrote: that was the best planecrash ever. too bad that stuff like this doesnt happen more often Well, at least you lasted 21 posts. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
why? imagine the whole bush administration dying in a planecrash 5 years ago. wouldnt that have been awesome? lives are relative, the decisions of those corrupt assholes in power always end up costing more lives, so its not unjustifyable from a moralic viewpoint to be happy about stuff like this | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
On April 14 2010 06:43 summerloud wrote: that was the best planecrash ever. too bad that stuff like this doesnt happen more often word, how come my country isnt that lucky :< | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 14 2010 02:16 Manit0u wrote: How is the president comparable to a king? It makes as much sense as burying him in Jerusalem or something. Well considering almost everyone in modern times thinks having a President > King, and that most kings in the past were quite tyrannical and selfish... you're honoring the kings by letting the President be buried there^^. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
what country would that be? | ||
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cz
United States3249 Posts
Mexico. | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
anybody saw this? I'm really not into conspiracy theories but that video is interesting. It was on our news today, they said polish army experts are investigating the video, maybe some Poles have more info on this? | ||
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Captain Mayhem
Sweden774 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 ondik wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxIFh3NkEvM anybody saw this? I'm really not into conspiracy theories but that video is interesting. It was on our news today, they said polish army experts are investigating the video, maybe some Poles have more info on this? I've seen quite a few pixels in my day, and that looks shopped. Seriously though, I saw it a few days ago as well. First thought was "holy shit conspiracy", but after reading about it for a while, some people said that they were holding looters at bay with warning shots, and not executing survivors. To me, this feels more likely, so I'll settle with that for now. The fire seems rather odd, but I'm not going to say it's a fake video. The camera is probably the villain there. | ||
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