• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:39
CET 17:39
KST 01:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)7Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? I would like to say something about StarCraft BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Psychological Factors That D…
TrAiDoS
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3079 users

The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 104

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 102 103 104 105 106 158 Next
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 19 2013 18:35 GMT
#2061
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

Draghi made mention of that in his presentation last week.

His presentation (see slides 9 and 10):
http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/2013/html/sp130315.en.pdf?4d55c03ac2e6f7b4dd49a48b5d3695fa
Ex. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


A generic Reuters article on the meeting:
Draghi lectures eurozone leaders about labour costs
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:44:53
March 19 2013 18:39 GMT
#2062
On March 20 2013 03:30 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:04 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:56 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.

Of course nominal wages rose stronger. But for the average of the population, didn't see any increase in their wage, and their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job.

It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place.


I actually agree with you I just come to other conclusions. Make the cut, take the losses and from our german perspective start to look out for alternative markets as structural reform and future gains in productivity (and the possibility of sending "flux" back) in the crisis countries seems to be rather unlikely for me.

You are dooming them to several years of deflation because of Germany and Europe, so I don't see why they should stay in the current EU.

I leave that here because I feel it is one of the best and simple explanation of the current problem
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/news-archive/end-of-eurozone
When Greece was bailed out by a joint eurozone-IMF rescue package back in May, it was clear that the deal had bought only a temporary respite. Now the other shoe has dropped. With Ireland’s troubles threatening to spill over to Portugal, Spain and even Italy, it is time to rethink the viability of Europe’s currency union.

These words do not come easily, as I am no Euroskeptic. Unlike others, such as my Harvard colleague Martin Feldstein, who argue that Europe is not a natural monetary area, I believed that monetary union made perfect sense in the context of a broader European project that emphasized - as it still does - political institution-building alongside economic integration.

Europe’s bad luck was to be hit with the worst financial crisis since the 1930s while still only halfway through its integration process. The eurozone was too integrated for cross-border spillovers not to cause mayhem in national economies, but not integrated enough to have the institutional capacity needed to manage the crisis.

Consider what happens when banks in Texas, Florida or California make bad lending decisions that threaten their survival. If the banks are merely illiquid, the Federal Reserve in Washington is ready to act as a lender of last resort. If they are judged to be insolvent, they are allowed to fail or are taken over by federal authorities, while depositors are made whole by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Similarly, in case of bankruptcy, federal laws and courts readily adjudicate claims among creditors, and do so without regard to state borders. Regardless of the outcome, private debt is not socialized by state governments (but by the federal government, if at all), and does not threaten public finances at the state level.

State governments in turn have no legal power to abrogate debt contracts vis-a-vis out-of-state creditors, and no incentive to do so (given the help they get from the federal government). So, even in the throes of a financial crisis, banks and non-financial firms can continue to borrow if their balance sheets are sound, uncontaminated by the “sovereign risk” of their state government. Meanwhile, the federal government makes up for a good chunk of the drop in state incomes by transfers or reduced taxes. Workers who nonetheless have it bad can move easily to better-performing states without worries about language differences or culture shock. Almost all of this happens automatically, without long, contentious negotiations among state governors and federal officials, assistance from the IMF, or calling into question the existence of the United States as a unified political-economic entity.

So the real problem in Europe is not that Spain or Ireland has borrowed a lot, or that too much Spanish and Irish debt sits on banks balance sheets elsewhere in Europe. After all, who cares about Florida’s current-account deficit - or even knows what it amounts to? No, the real problem is that Europe has not created the union-wide institutions that an integrated financial market requires.

This reflects the absence of adequate political institutions at the center. The European Union has taught us valuable lessons over the last few decades: first, that financial integration requires eliminating volatility among national currencies; next, that eradicating exchange-rate risk requires doing away with national currencies altogether; and now, that monetary union is impossible, among democracies, without political union.

It should have been expected that the political side of the equation would take time to fall into place. It is easy to blame European politicians for lack of leadership. But let us not underestimate the magnitude of the task that European governments took on.

In fact, the closest analogue to it is America’s own historical experience with building a federal republic. As the long American struggle for “states’ rights” - and indeed the Civil War - shows, creating a political union out of a collection of self-governing entities is hardly a smooth or speedy process.

States naturally cherish their sovereignty. Worse still, economic union itself can fan the fires of nationalism and endanger political integration. It places strains on each country’s institutions (seen in the pressure on Europe’s welfare states), breeds resentment against foreigners (witness the recent success of anti-immigration parties) and renders financial crises originating from abroad both likelier and costlier (as the current situation makes all too clear).

Alas, it may now be too late for the eurozone. Ireland and the southern European countries must reduce their debt burden and sharply enhance their economies’ competitiveness. It is hard to see how they can achieve both aims while remaining in the eurozone.

The Greek and Irish bailouts are only temporary palliatives: they do nothing to curtail indebtedness, and they have not stopped contagion. Moreover, the fiscal austerity they prescribe delays economic recovery. The idea that structural and labor market reforms can deliver quick growth is nothing but a mirage. So the need for debt restructuring is an unavoidable reality.

Even if the Germans and other creditors acquiesce in a restructuring - not from 2013 on, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel has asked for, but now - there is the further problem of restoring competitiveness. This problem is shared by all deficit countries, but is acute in Southern Europe. Membership in the same monetary zone as Germany will condemn these countries to years of deflation, high unemployment and domestic political turmoil. An exit from the eurozone may be at this point the only realistic option for recovery.

A breakup of the eurozone may not doom it forever. Countries can rejoin, and do so credibly, when the fiscal, regulatory and political prerequisites are in place. For the moment, the eurozone may well have reached the point where an amicable divorce is a better option than years of economic decline and political acrimony.


By making the cut I mean get out of the EURO. I would rather see my own country out of it, will surely sting in the short run, but i doubt it will stop the country from being competitive and good at selling stuff in the long run, just presents a new set of challenges, like preventing an eventual DM 2.0 from going through the roof (Switzerland does this quite well with their currency).

I wouldn't bother about Greece going out either. For me it was a currency built upon political utopia from the get go (and everybody in the political spheres of the accepting countries was on board, so let's not start the blame game).

Oh ok, then we agree.
I'm not sure Europe was a political utopia. If it were, we would have european passport by now. It was just hypocrite, thinking we could do one thing (free trade area) without the other (fiscal unification). I like the idea of europe, as I feel pretty close to other european countries (in term of culture, civilisation or whatever) but I feel that building more link between european countries should not have been made through an economical perspective first and foremost, but rather through a political and cultural process. In this matter, there are a lot of countries in the EU that have no place in it as they don't feel emotionnally attached to it in any way (Poland comes to mind).
In this perspective, Greece is actually the hearth of Europe.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 19 2013 18:40 GMT
#2063
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:50:33
March 19 2013 18:43 GMT
#2064
On March 20 2013 03:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

Draghi made mention of that in his presentation last week.

His presentation (see slides 9 and 10):
http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/2013/html/sp130315.en.pdf?4d55c03ac2e6f7b4dd49a48b5d3695fa
Ex. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


A generic Reuters article on the meeting:
Draghi lectures eurozone leaders about labour costs


To be honest I am not overly surprised. I just think it is stupid to put all the blame on certain players like the troika or Merkel as they would negotiate the wage development in Portugal or Greece for the last two decades. In my opinion the crisis can only be ended by some honest self reflection. I mean problems can only be solved as they are indeed seen and recognized as problems and not by shifting blame or denying responsibility.


Edit: FFS just look at the graphs this is simply utter madness, there is no sugarcoating for it
C[h]ili
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany167 Posts
March 19 2013 19:03 GMT
#2065
I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.

Certainly exciting times right now.
Hatsu
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom474 Posts
March 19 2013 19:43 GMT
#2066
One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.

In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.

One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.

I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again.
Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years.
Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.

As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.

I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants.
Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
March 19 2013 21:00 GMT
#2067
On March 20 2013 04:43 Hatsu wrote:
One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.

In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.

One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.

I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again.
Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years.
Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.

As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.

I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants.

I agree with you, I do not think leaving the euro is good for some countries (France or Germany), but for the PIGS it is becoming a necessity. Also I completly agree about country such as Switzerland.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
March 19 2013 21:12 GMT
#2068
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Blackmail? I wouldn't be so harsh to call what Cyprus did blackmailing (though it comes kinda close), it is their good right to not agree to this.
EU should not put any pressure on Cyprus. If they want money from the EU, they should make a proposal on how they want to proceed, then the other EU members can see if the terms are acceptable.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
March 19 2013 21:18 GMT
#2069
Seriously, just restructure the deal to a 100.000 minimum and take whatever percentage is needed to reach the 3.5 billion. Most of it seems to be russian money that they're trying to launder anyway.
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
March 19 2013 21:19 GMT
#2070
On March 20 2013 06:18 Derez wrote:
Seriously, just restructure the deal to a 100.000 minimum and take whatever percentage is needed to reach the 3.5 billion. Most of it seems to be russian money that they're trying to launder anyway.

Yep, very bad idea to try touch anything below 100k. Above that is up for grabs imo.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Breach_hu
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary2431 Posts
March 19 2013 21:23 GMT
#2071
If they are not helping Cyprus, the Cyprus pound will come back soon, and it will mean bye-bye euro for a lot of European country. I dont know if its bad or good. But this cant the goal for EU.
Give thanks and praise!
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
March 19 2013 23:53 GMT
#2072
How would you solve the crisis?
Found this nice game on the web

http://crookedtimber.org/2013/03/19/what-would-you-do-part-2-the-island-of-surpyc/
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 20 2013 00:02 GMT
#2073
On March 20 2013 06:12 ACrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Blackmail? I wouldn't be so harsh to call what Cyprus did blackmailing (though it comes kinda close), it is their good right to not agree to this.
EU should not put any pressure on Cyprus. If they want money from the EU, they should make a proposal on how they want to proceed, then the other EU members can see if the terms are acceptable.


My uneducated guess would be that he means the EU blackmailing Cyprus...
Hatsu
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom474 Posts
March 20 2013 00:16 GMT
#2074
On March 20 2013 06:00 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 04:43 Hatsu wrote:
One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.

In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.

One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.

I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again.
Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years.
Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.

As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.

I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants.

I agree with you, I do not think leaving the euro is good for some countries (France or Germany), but for the PIGS it is becoming a necessity. Also I completly agree about country such as Switzerland.


I do not agree with your assessment of the PIIGS. Giving up on those would still have catastrophic effects on both the world economy and the long term prospects for Europe. I think there is plenty of pain ahead, don't get me wrong, the situation is certainly dire, but we must persevere.
Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet
Jago
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland390 Posts
March 20 2013 00:20 GMT
#2075
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.
Callynn
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands917 Posts
March 20 2013 00:43 GMT
#2076
I wonder in what year we will see a more fundamentalist 'occupy' movement that will overthrow the bank sector and 'french revolution-style guilliotine' all those fucking bankers who make more money in an hour than I will make in a month.

Perhaps that will be the only solution left if this keeps happening, we've been in this shit for 5 years now - it's just waiting for a Lenin or Hitler to stand up (I'm not saying they are the same, but they used the same pretext to rise to power; poverty and injustice in their nations).
Comparing BW with SCII is like comparing a beautiful three-master sailing ship with a modern battlecruiser. Both are beautiful in their own way, both perform the same task, but they are worlds apart in how they are built and how they are steered.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 20 2013 01:38 GMT
#2077
On March 20 2013 09:43 Callynn wrote:
I wonder in what year we will see a more fundamentalist 'occupy' movement that will overthrow the bank sector and 'french revolution-style guilliotine' all those fucking bankers who make more money in an hour than I will make in a month.

Perhaps that will be the only solution left if this keeps happening, we've been in this shit for 5 years now - it's just waiting for a Lenin or Hitler to stand up (I'm not saying they are the same, but they used the same pretext to rise to power; poverty and injustice in their nations).

Yeah I feel for you Europeans. It's absurd that the banking issues haven't already been resolved.
oakchair
Profile Joined March 2013
11 Posts
March 20 2013 02:34 GMT
#2078
On March 20 2013 04:03 C[h]ili wrote:
I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.

Certainly exciting times right now.


So basically you want the EuroZone monetary policy to only do whats best for Germany and just screw the rest of the continent.
Do you realize how much of a dick you sound like?
oakchair
Profile Joined March 2013
11 Posts
March 20 2013 02:41 GMT
#2079
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 03:10:22
March 20 2013 03:07 GMT
#2080
On March 20 2013 11:34 oakchair wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 04:03 C[h]ili wrote:
I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.

Certainly exciting times right now.


So basically you want the EuroZone monetary policy to only do whats best for Germany and just screw the rest of the continent.
Do you realize how much of a dick you sound like?


do you realize that the money germany pays out to cyprus is just used to pay the banks in germany. Nothing of it is used to help any of those who now suffer in souther europe.

German taxpayers pay with the taxpayers in southern europe for the fucking irresponssible lending the banks all over the world enjoyed for years. The Creditors(banks) are at least as responsible for this whole Mess like the deptor (the countries in trouble).

But all we do is save these irresponssible bankers while the continent gets looted.

Prev 1 102 103 104 105 106 158 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Gabe XPERIONCRAFT
13:00
#3
RotterdaM2348
IndyStarCraft 329
mouzHeroMarine282
Belair 77
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2348
Lowko600
IndyStarCraft 329
mouzHeroMarine 282
BRAT_OK 109
RushiSC 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 1385
ggaemo 1062
Mini 955
EffOrt 661
Stork 562
Hyuk 455
Soma 284
BeSt 278
actioN 210
Mind 199
[ Show more ]
Rush 160
Zeus 143
hero 128
Hyun 123
Barracks 94
Movie 44
ToSsGirL 43
Aegong 42
Yoon 41
Shine 32
Rock 32
soO 29
910 25
GoRush 12
Dota 2
Gorgc4793
qojqva1780
XcaliburYe125
LuMiX0
Counter-Strike
byalli382
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor403
Other Games
Grubby3277
singsing2197
DeMusliM317
FrodaN153
XaKoH 137
KnowMe124
QueenE89
ArmadaUGS84
B2W.Neo76
MindelVK17
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick43023
EGCTV755
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 469
Other Games
BasetradeTV38
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 15
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Shiphtur349
Upcoming Events
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
16m
AI Arena Tournament
3h 21m
WardiTV Invitational
20h 21m
IPSL
1d 3h
DragOn vs Sziky
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Wardi Open
1d 19h
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
[ Show More ]
All Star Teams
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S1: W3
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
OSC Championship Season 13
Big Gabe Cup #3
Underdog Cup #3
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
NA Kuram Kup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.