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On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up. Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone). Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout. Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany. I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable. Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years). Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe. It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable. I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one: If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise. The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards. I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece. Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium. I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries). Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around. Draghi made mention of that in his presentation last week.
His presentation (see slides 9 and 10): http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/2013/html/sp130315.en.pdf?4d55c03ac2e6f7b4dd49a48b5d3695fa Ex. + Show Spoiler +
A generic Reuters article on the meeting: Draghi lectures eurozone leaders about labour costs
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On March 20 2013 03:30 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 03:04 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 02:56 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years). Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe. It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable. I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one: If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise. The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards. I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece. Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium. I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries). Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around. I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions. Of course nominal wages rose stronger. But for the average of the population, didn't see any increase in their wage, and their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job. It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place. I actually agree with you I just come to other conclusions. Make the cut, take the losses and from our german perspective start to look out for alternative markets as structural reform and future gains in productivity (and the possibility of sending "flux" back) in the crisis countries seems to be rather unlikely for me. You are dooming them to several years of deflation because of Germany and Europe, so I don't see why they should stay in the current EU. I leave that here because I feel it is one of the best and simple explanation of the current problem http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/news-archive/end-of-eurozoneWhen Greece was bailed out by a joint eurozone-IMF rescue package back in May, it was clear that the deal had bought only a temporary respite. Now the other shoe has dropped. With Ireland’s troubles threatening to spill over to Portugal, Spain and even Italy, it is time to rethink the viability of Europe’s currency union.
These words do not come easily, as I am no Euroskeptic. Unlike others, such as my Harvard colleague Martin Feldstein, who argue that Europe is not a natural monetary area, I believed that monetary union made perfect sense in the context of a broader European project that emphasized - as it still does - political institution-building alongside economic integration.
Europe’s bad luck was to be hit with the worst financial crisis since the 1930s while still only halfway through its integration process. The eurozone was too integrated for cross-border spillovers not to cause mayhem in national economies, but not integrated enough to have the institutional capacity needed to manage the crisis.
Consider what happens when banks in Texas, Florida or California make bad lending decisions that threaten their survival. If the banks are merely illiquid, the Federal Reserve in Washington is ready to act as a lender of last resort. If they are judged to be insolvent, they are allowed to fail or are taken over by federal authorities, while depositors are made whole by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Similarly, in case of bankruptcy, federal laws and courts readily adjudicate claims among creditors, and do so without regard to state borders. Regardless of the outcome, private debt is not socialized by state governments (but by the federal government, if at all), and does not threaten public finances at the state level.
State governments in turn have no legal power to abrogate debt contracts vis-a-vis out-of-state creditors, and no incentive to do so (given the help they get from the federal government). So, even in the throes of a financial crisis, banks and non-financial firms can continue to borrow if their balance sheets are sound, uncontaminated by the “sovereign risk” of their state government. Meanwhile, the federal government makes up for a good chunk of the drop in state incomes by transfers or reduced taxes. Workers who nonetheless have it bad can move easily to better-performing states without worries about language differences or culture shock. Almost all of this happens automatically, without long, contentious negotiations among state governors and federal officials, assistance from the IMF, or calling into question the existence of the United States as a unified political-economic entity.
So the real problem in Europe is not that Spain or Ireland has borrowed a lot, or that too much Spanish and Irish debt sits on banks balance sheets elsewhere in Europe. After all, who cares about Florida’s current-account deficit - or even knows what it amounts to? No, the real problem is that Europe has not created the union-wide institutions that an integrated financial market requires.
This reflects the absence of adequate political institutions at the center. The European Union has taught us valuable lessons over the last few decades: first, that financial integration requires eliminating volatility among national currencies; next, that eradicating exchange-rate risk requires doing away with national currencies altogether; and now, that monetary union is impossible, among democracies, without political union.
It should have been expected that the political side of the equation would take time to fall into place. It is easy to blame European politicians for lack of leadership. But let us not underestimate the magnitude of the task that European governments took on.
In fact, the closest analogue to it is America’s own historical experience with building a federal republic. As the long American struggle for “states’ rights” - and indeed the Civil War - shows, creating a political union out of a collection of self-governing entities is hardly a smooth or speedy process.
States naturally cherish their sovereignty. Worse still, economic union itself can fan the fires of nationalism and endanger political integration. It places strains on each country’s institutions (seen in the pressure on Europe’s welfare states), breeds resentment against foreigners (witness the recent success of anti-immigration parties) and renders financial crises originating from abroad both likelier and costlier (as the current situation makes all too clear).
Alas, it may now be too late for the eurozone. Ireland and the southern European countries must reduce their debt burden and sharply enhance their economies’ competitiveness. It is hard to see how they can achieve both aims while remaining in the eurozone.
The Greek and Irish bailouts are only temporary palliatives: they do nothing to curtail indebtedness, and they have not stopped contagion. Moreover, the fiscal austerity they prescribe delays economic recovery. The idea that structural and labor market reforms can deliver quick growth is nothing but a mirage. So the need for debt restructuring is an unavoidable reality.
Even if the Germans and other creditors acquiesce in a restructuring - not from 2013 on, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel has asked for, but now - there is the further problem of restoring competitiveness. This problem is shared by all deficit countries, but is acute in Southern Europe. Membership in the same monetary zone as Germany will condemn these countries to years of deflation, high unemployment and domestic political turmoil. An exit from the eurozone may be at this point the only realistic option for recovery.
A breakup of the eurozone may not doom it forever. Countries can rejoin, and do so credibly, when the fiscal, regulatory and political prerequisites are in place. For the moment, the eurozone may well have reached the point where an amicable divorce is a better option than years of economic decline and political acrimony. By making the cut I mean get out of the EURO. I would rather see my own country out of it, will surely sting in the short run, but i doubt it will stop the country from being competitive and good at selling stuff in the long run, just presents a new set of challenges, like preventing an eventual DM 2.0 from going through the roof (Switzerland does this quite well with their currency). I wouldn't bother about Greece going out either. For me it was a currency built upon political utopia from the get go (and everybody in the political spheres of the accepting countries was on board, so let's not start the blame game). Oh ok, then we agree. I'm not sure Europe was a political utopia. If it were, we would have european passport by now. It was just hypocrite, thinking we could do one thing (free trade area) without the other (fiscal unification). I like the idea of europe, as I feel pretty close to other european countries (in term of culture, civilisation or whatever) but I feel that building more link between european countries should not have been made through an economical perspective first and foremost, but rather through a political and cultural process. In this matter, there are a lot of countries in the EU that have no place in it as they don't feel emotionnally attached to it in any way (Poland comes to mind). In this perspective, Greece is actually the hearth of Europe.
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Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.
Let the blackmail begin!
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On March 20 2013 03:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote: [quote]
Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout. Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany. I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable. Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years). Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe. It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable. I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one: If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise. The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards. I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece. Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium. I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries). Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around. Draghi made mention of that in his presentation last week. His presentation (see slides 9 and 10): http://www.ecb.int/press/key/date/2013/html/sp130315.en.pdf?4d55c03ac2e6f7b4dd49a48b5d3695faEx. + Show Spoiler +A generic Reuters article on the meeting: Draghi lectures eurozone leaders about labour costs
To be honest I am not overly surprised. I just think it is stupid to put all the blame on certain players like the troika or Merkel as they would negotiate the wage development in Portugal or Greece for the last two decades. In my opinion the crisis can only be ended by some honest self reflection. I mean problems can only be solved as they are indeed seen and recognized as problems and not by shifting blame or denying responsibility.
Edit: FFS just look at the graphs this is simply utter madness, there is no sugarcoating for it
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I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.
Certainly exciting times right now.
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One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.
In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.
One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.
I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again. Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years. Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.
As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.
I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants.
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On March 20 2013 04:43 Hatsu wrote: One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.
In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.
One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.
I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again. Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years. Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.
As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.
I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants. I agree with you, I do not think leaving the euro is good for some countries (France or Germany), but for the PIGS it is becoming a necessity. Also I completly agree about country such as Switzerland.
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On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote: Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.
Let the blackmail begin! Blackmail? I wouldn't be so harsh to call what Cyprus did blackmailing (though it comes kinda close), it is their good right to not agree to this. EU should not put any pressure on Cyprus. If they want money from the EU, they should make a proposal on how they want to proceed, then the other EU members can see if the terms are acceptable.
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Seriously, just restructure the deal to a 100.000 minimum and take whatever percentage is needed to reach the 3.5 billion. Most of it seems to be russian money that they're trying to launder anyway.
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On March 20 2013 06:18 Derez wrote: Seriously, just restructure the deal to a 100.000 minimum and take whatever percentage is needed to reach the 3.5 billion. Most of it seems to be russian money that they're trying to launder anyway. Yep, very bad idea to try touch anything below 100k. Above that is up for grabs imo.
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If they are not helping Cyprus, the Cyprus pound will come back soon, and it will mean bye-bye euro for a lot of European country. I dont know if its bad or good. But this cant the goal for EU.
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On March 20 2013 06:12 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote: Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.
Let the blackmail begin! Blackmail? I wouldn't be so harsh to call what Cyprus did blackmailing (though it comes kinda close), it is their good right to not agree to this. EU should not put any pressure on Cyprus. If they want money from the EU, they should make a proposal on how they want to proceed, then the other EU members can see if the terms are acceptable.
My uneducated guess would be that he means the EU blackmailing Cyprus...
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On March 20 2013 06:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 04:43 Hatsu wrote: One thing that most people miss about the current crisis, I feel, is that the survival of the Euro is instrumental to further integration of countries within the European Union. The EU greatly suffers from divergent (or differently implemented) policies in pretty much all areas.
In a world that is characterized by the rise of large, powerful countries (China, India, Russia, Brazil, the US and so on) European countries might very well become too small to matter enough on the world stage. A stronger, deeper political and economic integration is the only way to possibly negate this.
One could point to countries such as Switzerland or Norway and claim that European countries could follow their example. While it is true that these countries are well governed and, in some fields, an example to be followed, it is also true that their wealth is still greatly affected by the European situation as a whole. The only reason why they can afford to have bilateral agreements with the EU rather than membership is that they are small and wealthy nations with somewhat unique circumstances.
I am quite horrified by the widespread lack of understanding of what a Euro collapse would entail. People seem to believe that, with the single currency gone, debts would be forgiven and economies would flourish again. Unfortunately, if the Euro were to go the most immediate effect would be an almost guaranteed world economic slump far worse than what we have seen now. European countries would face incredibly high borrowing costs for years or decades to come (nobody can really tell, as something like this has never happened). While competitiveness would be eventually restored, governments would have to face social unrest, inflation, unemployment for years. Richer European countries would not be exempt, as European countries are in many ways integrated and, to a significant extent, economically dependent.
As a result, it is my belief that we must endure the pain to come together, even if it is indeed very tough and might last for several years. Crisis like this are necessary for issues to arise and be addressed, and they may very well be the foundations of a better European Union that can matter in the next century.
I understand that some of you do not agree with me and, with the suffering that this is causing, I understand everyone's reaction and I do sympathize, because I personally know how much it sucks not to have a job, to feel hopeless, to hate the people in power and so on. But I invite everyone to take the very long term view and soldier through, as what is decided now will greatly affect our descendants. I agree with you, I do not think leaving the euro is good for some countries (France or Germany), but for the PIGS it is becoming a necessity. Also I completly agree about country such as Switzerland.
I do not agree with your assessment of the PIIGS. Giving up on those would still have catastrophic effects on both the world economy and the long term prospects for Europe. I think there is plenty of pain ahead, don't get me wrong, the situation is certainly dire, but we must persevere.
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On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote: Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.
Let the blackmail begin! Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.
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I wonder in what year we will see a more fundamentalist 'occupy' movement that will overthrow the bank sector and 'french revolution-style guilliotine' all those fucking bankers who make more money in an hour than I will make in a month.
Perhaps that will be the only solution left if this keeps happening, we've been in this shit for 5 years now - it's just waiting for a Lenin or Hitler to stand up (I'm not saying they are the same, but they used the same pretext to rise to power; poverty and injustice in their nations).
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On March 20 2013 09:43 Callynn wrote: I wonder in what year we will see a more fundamentalist 'occupy' movement that will overthrow the bank sector and 'french revolution-style guilliotine' all those fucking bankers who make more money in an hour than I will make in a month.
Perhaps that will be the only solution left if this keeps happening, we've been in this shit for 5 years now - it's just waiting for a Lenin or Hitler to stand up (I'm not saying they are the same, but they used the same pretext to rise to power; poverty and injustice in their nations). Yeah I feel for you Europeans. It's absurd that the banking issues haven't already been resolved.
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On March 20 2013 04:03 C[h]ili wrote: I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.
Certainly exciting times right now.
So basically you want the EuroZone monetary policy to only do whats best for Germany and just screw the rest of the continent. Do you realize how much of a dick you sound like?
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On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote: Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.
Let the blackmail begin! Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.
Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??
Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.
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On March 20 2013 11:34 oakchair wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 04:03 C[h]ili wrote: I hope the Euro finance minister stay tough and don't hand over any money to Cyprus.
Certainly exciting times right now. So basically you want the EuroZone monetary policy to only do whats best for Germany and just screw the rest of the continent. Do you realize how much of a dick you sound like?
do you realize that the money germany pays out to cyprus is just used to pay the banks in germany. Nothing of it is used to help any of those who now suffer in souther europe.
German taxpayers pay with the taxpayers in southern europe for the fucking irresponssible lending the banks all over the world enjoyed for years. The Creditors(banks) are at least as responsible for this whole Mess like the deptor (the countries in trouble).
But all we do is save these irresponssible bankers while the continent gets looted.
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