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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 105

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oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 20 2013 03:08 GMT
#2081
but the financial backbone of the world~
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 03:18:37
March 20 2013 03:16 GMT
#2082
On March 20 2013 11:41 oakchair wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.


The was a clear no-bailout clause in the treaty that formed the Euro-Zone. That was broken with greece years ago. If anything we broke our agreement in favor of those countries by giving aid.

Don't talk about stuff you clearly have no clue about.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
March 20 2013 03:20 GMT
#2083
On March 20 2013 12:16 Gaga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 11:41 oakchair wrote:
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.


The was a clear no-bailout clause in the treaty that formed the Euro-Zone. That was broken with greece years ago. If anything we broke our agreement in favor of those countries by giving aid.

Don't talk about stuff you clearly have no clue about.


So breaking the rules just because a rule has been broken already is fine?
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 03:30:22
March 20 2013 03:29 GMT
#2084
On March 20 2013 12:20 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 12:16 Gaga wrote:
On March 20 2013 11:41 oakchair wrote:
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.


The was a clear no-bailout clause in the treaty that formed the Euro-Zone. That was broken with greece years ago. If anything we broke our agreement in favor of those countries by giving aid.

Don't talk about stuff you clearly have no clue about.


So breaking the rules just because a rule has been broken already is fine?


Wtf man. can you read what i write ?

Can you tell me where i said something like this ?

Why do you assume i think so?

Because all i do is criticise the bullshit he is telling about the Euro agreement.

Breaking agreements is a different topic.

but to be clear, no i don't think thats fine.

Dude....
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 20 2013 03:33 GMT
#2085
On March 20 2013 12:20 Zaros wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 12:16 Gaga wrote:
On March 20 2013 11:41 oakchair wrote:
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.


The was a clear no-bailout clause in the treaty that formed the Euro-Zone. That was broken with greece years ago. If anything we broke our agreement in favor of those countries by giving aid.

Don't talk about stuff you clearly have no clue about.


So breaking the rules just because a rule has been broken already is fine?


Well, first the no bailouts thing is actually enforcing and not breaking the rules. Apart from that it is common business practice that broken treaties are decrepit. Don't know where you want to go with your statement tbh.
oakchair
Profile Joined March 2013
11 Posts
March 20 2013 04:10 GMT
#2086
On March 20 2013 12:16 Gaga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 11:41 oakchair wrote:
On March 20 2013 09:20 Jago wrote:
On March 20 2013 03:40 accela wrote:
Cyprus Parliament declined the Eurogroup proposed haircut in deposits by 36 "no" votes and 19 "abstention" votes.

Let the blackmail begin!

Who blackmails whom? The EU is certainly not blackmailing Cyprus, that's for sure. If you ask for help and the help comes with strings attached, that's not blackmail. If you don't want the strings attached, don't ask for help.


Cyprus has an economic output around 18bn, however its net foreign debt (IE debt it owes to Finland, Germany Russia minus what foreigners owe Cyprus) is around 72bn. If Cyprus left the EuroZone it would mean the country would default on that 72bn it owes other European countries. So do math is giving Cyprus 18bn worth losing 72bn??

Your country agreed to share a monetary/currency union with Cyprus if you force the ECB to deny aid to Cyprus then what you are saying is that your past agreement was a lie and that you simply wanted to own Cyprus by taking control of its currency.


The was a clear no-bailout clause in the treaty that formed the Euro-Zone. That was broken with greece years ago. If anything we broke our agreement in favor of those countries by giving aid.

Don't talk about stuff you clearly have no clue about.

Come back when you know what monetary policy and central banks are. IE come back when you have an understand of the A country is not the same thing as a central bank/currency. So plz come back when you know what a currency and a central bank is. IE when you have an understanding that is above someone who is 10 years old. IE never.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
March 20 2013 04:14 GMT
#2087
Did you guys see that New Zealand is putting together a law that would automatically take money out of bank depositors' accounts to keep a bank afloat if it needs to be bailed out?

All the other methods are being thrown out the window, such as insurance. They want to start confiscating wealth now. It's a concerted effort and more of what we'll see moving forward.
Do you really want chat rooms?
oakchair
Profile Joined March 2013
11 Posts
March 20 2013 04:17 GMT
#2088
A central bank by definition does what is best for the overall economy/welfare of the people. That means that unless the Eurozone treaty said that "the interests of a few countries is more important then the interests of the majority" then not giving aid to Cyprus means that those in the Eurozone who oppose aiding Cyprus are disrespecting the treaty. Also because not giving aid the Cyprus results in less economic growth for all it means that those who oppose it are sadistic assholes who will make themselves poorer in order to make others suffer.
Congrats dumbasses.

User was temp banned for this post.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
March 20 2013 04:20 GMT
#2089
This is closer to what's really going on. It's not about trying to get a couple billion at all. Why would you risk abolishing the rule of law and creating bank runs all for a couple billion?

This is a test to see what people will accept. It's all about setting precedent. Now NZ out of nowhere is talking about taking people's deposits to automatically bail out failing banks.

Bank accounts, 401ks, real estate, it's all going to be up for grabs in due time.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmar13/cyprus3-13.html

The Deeper Meanings of Cyprus (March 18, 2013)


The deposit-confiscation "bailout" of Cyprus reveals much about the Eurozone's fundamental neocolonial, neofeudal structure.

At long last, Europe's flimsy facades of State sovereignty, democracy and free-market capitalism have collapsed, and we see the real machinery laid bare: the Eurozone's political-financial Aristocracy will stripmine every nation's citizenry to preserve their power and protect the banks and bondholders from absorbing losses.

The deposit-confiscation "bailout" of Cyprus confirms the Eurozone's fundamental neocolonial, neofeudal structure and the region's political surrender to financialization.

The E.U., Neofeudalism and the Neocolonial-Financialization Model (May 24, 2012)

Let's list what Cyprus reveals about the true state of financial-political power in Europe:

1. The Core-Periphery terminology masks the real structure: the E.U. operates on a neocolonial model. In the old Colonialism 1.0 model, the colonizing power conquered or co-opted the Power Elites of the periphery regions, and proceeded to exploit the new colonies' resources and labor to enrich the Imperial core.

In Neocolonialism, the forces of financialization (debt and leverage controlled by State-enforced banking cartels) are used to indenture the local Elites and populace to the financial core: the peripheral "colonials" borrow money to buy the finished goods manufactured in the core economies, enriching the Imperial Elites with A) the profits made selling goods to the debtors B) interest on credit extended to the peripheral colonies to buy the core economies' goods and "live large", and C) the transactional skim of financializing peripheral assets such as real estate and State debt.

In essence, the core banks of the E.U. colonized the peripheral nations via the financializing euro, which enabled a massive expansion of debt and consumption in the periphery. The banks and exporters of the core exacted enormous profits from this expansion of debt and consumption.

Now that the financialization scheme of the euro has run its course, the periphery's neocolonial standing is starkly revealed: the assets and income of the periphery are flowing to the core as interest on the private and sovereign debts that are owed to the core's central bank and its crony money-center private banks.

This is not just the perfection of neocolonialism but of neofeudalism as well. The peripheral nations of the E.U. are effectively neocolonial debtors of the core (quasi-Imperial) banks, and the taxpayers of the core nations (now reduced to Germany and The Netherlands) are now feudal serfs whose labor is devoted to making good on any bank loans to the periphery that go bad.

Though we can term the E.U. a plutocracy or oligarchy, the neofeudal structure compels us to distinguish a class of those holding wealth and political power that is not limited to national border: this is an Aristocracy.

Serving the Aristocracy is a well-paid technocrat class of factotums, lackeys, toadies and enforcers. Below this well-compensated caste of technocrats is the larger class of debt-serfs, enslaved to interest payments on either their own debts or the debts of others, and bound by their class powerlessness to protecting banks and bondholders from losses.

Cyprus merely adds an expropriation twist to this well-oiled plunder: deposits will be expropriated directly to insure no Imperial (core) banks or bond holders lose money on their absurdly risky loans to periphery nations and serfs.

2. This is a supranational plunder. While commentators can wile away years debating how much Germany benefited from the euro, the real core is not national, it is supranational banks and the political machinery of the E.U. the banks have effectively captured.

The citizenry of Germany may approve or disapprove of the Cyprus expropriation, but it doesn't matter either way: their own serfdom to banks and bondholders is simply being masked: the bailouts of periphery nations are transparently bailouts of core banks and bondholders.

The nation-states of the neocolonial periphery are simply convenient propaganda placeholders, useful misdirections aimed at the naive and sentimental, hollowed-out national structures propped up to mask the ugly neocolonial reality of servitude and plunder.

3. Democracy is a fiction when no matter who you vote for, the banks and bondholders win control of the national income stream and private wealth. Democracy in Europe is a travesty of a mockery of a sham, an absurd play which is acted out as a form of blood-sport circus to distract the masses from their powerlessness and debt-serfdom.

Democracy is a fiction when the policies protecting banks and bondholders from losses remain in place regardless of which political party, coalition or politico is nominally in power.

The German taxpayers' private wealth is being expropriated via taxes to bail out core banks and bondholders; how is this any different from the blatant expropriation of private assets in Cyprus?

It is only a difference in technique; the result is the same: the forced transfer of wealth from those who earned it from their labor to banks and bondholders which in a truly capitalist economy would be immediately forced to absorb the losses of their leveraged, highly risky bets.

4. The ideological fiction of capitalism is dead in Europe. Capitalism is a fiction if capital that is placed at risk for a return cannot be lost.

5. Cyprus is a test to see how blatant the expropriation of private assets can become without triggering overthrow and revolution. If the furor dies down soon enough, then the same technique of expropriation will be imposed elsewhere. If the reaction is sustained and threatening to the Aristocracy, other less blatant expropriations will be tested in other neocolonies.

6. Divide and conquer is the propaganda order of the day. The Power Elites are attempting to set the serfs of the periphery against the serfs of the core, the goal being to keep both sets of serfs from realizing they are equally indentured to the core's pathological political-financial Aristocracy.
Do you really want chat rooms?
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 05:10:39
March 20 2013 04:38 GMT
#2090
On March 20 2013 13:20 fight_or_flight wrote:
This is closer to what's really going on. It's not about trying to get a couple billion at all. Why would you risk abolishing the rule of law and creating bank runs all for a couple billion?

This is a test to see what people will accept. It's all about setting precedent. Now NZ out of nowhere is talking about taking people's deposits to automatically bail out failing banks.

Bank accounts, 401ks, real estate, it's all going to be up for grabs in due time.

Show nested quote +
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogmar13/cyprus3-13.html

The Deeper Meanings of Cyprus (March 18, 2013)


The deposit-confiscation "bailout" of Cyprus reveals much about the Eurozone's fundamental neocolonial, neofeudal structure.

At long last, Europe's flimsy facades of State sovereignty, democracy and free-market capitalism have collapsed, and we see the real machinery laid bare: the Eurozone's political-financial Aristocracy will stripmine every nation's citizenry to preserve their power and protect the banks and bondholders from absorbing losses.

The deposit-confiscation "bailout" of Cyprus confirms the Eurozone's fundamental neocolonial, neofeudal structure and the region's political surrender to financialization.

The E.U., Neofeudalism and the Neocolonial-Financialization Model (May 24, 2012)

Let's list what Cyprus reveals about the true state of financial-political power in Europe:

1. The Core-Periphery terminology masks the real structure: the E.U. operates on a neocolonial model. In the old Colonialism 1.0 model, the colonizing power conquered or co-opted the Power Elites of the periphery regions, and proceeded to exploit the new colonies' resources and labor to enrich the Imperial core.

In Neocolonialism, the forces of financialization (debt and leverage controlled by State-enforced banking cartels) are used to indenture the local Elites and populace to the financial core: the peripheral "colonials" borrow money to buy the finished goods manufactured in the core economies, enriching the Imperial Elites with A) the profits made selling goods to the debtors B) interest on credit extended to the peripheral colonies to buy the core economies' goods and "live large", and C) the transactional skim of financializing peripheral assets such as real estate and State debt.

In essence, the core banks of the E.U. colonized the peripheral nations via the financializing euro, which enabled a massive expansion of debt and consumption in the periphery. The banks and exporters of the core exacted enormous profits from this expansion of debt and consumption.

Now that the financialization scheme of the euro has run its course, the periphery's neocolonial standing is starkly revealed: the assets and income of the periphery are flowing to the core as interest on the private and sovereign debts that are owed to the core's central bank and its crony money-center private banks.

This is not just the perfection of neocolonialism but of neofeudalism as well. The peripheral nations of the E.U. are effectively neocolonial debtors of the core (quasi-Imperial) banks, and the taxpayers of the core nations (now reduced to Germany and The Netherlands) are now feudal serfs whose labor is devoted to making good on any bank loans to the periphery that go bad.

Though we can term the E.U. a plutocracy or oligarchy, the neofeudal structure compels us to distinguish a class of those holding wealth and political power that is not limited to national border: this is an Aristocracy.

Serving the Aristocracy is a well-paid technocrat class of factotums, lackeys, toadies and enforcers. Below this well-compensated caste of technocrats is the larger class of debt-serfs, enslaved to interest payments on either their own debts or the debts of others, and bound by their class powerlessness to protecting banks and bondholders from losses.

Cyprus merely adds an expropriation twist to this well-oiled plunder: deposits will be expropriated directly to insure no Imperial (core) banks or bond holders lose money on their absurdly risky loans to periphery nations and serfs.

2. This is a supranational plunder. While commentators can wile away years debating how much Germany benefited from the euro, the real core is not national, it is supranational banks and the political machinery of the E.U. the banks have effectively captured.

The citizenry of Germany may approve or disapprove of the Cyprus expropriation, but it doesn't matter either way: their own serfdom to banks and bondholders is simply being masked: the bailouts of periphery nations are transparently bailouts of core banks and bondholders.

The nation-states of the neocolonial periphery are simply convenient propaganda placeholders, useful misdirections aimed at the naive and sentimental, hollowed-out national structures propped up to mask the ugly neocolonial reality of servitude and plunder.

3. Democracy is a fiction when no matter who you vote for, the banks and bondholders win control of the national income stream and private wealth. Democracy in Europe is a travesty of a mockery of a sham, an absurd play which is acted out as a form of blood-sport circus to distract the masses from their powerlessness and debt-serfdom.

Democracy is a fiction when the policies protecting banks and bondholders from losses remain in place regardless of which political party, coalition or politico is nominally in power.

The German taxpayers' private wealth is being expropriated via taxes to bail out core banks and bondholders; how is this any different from the blatant expropriation of private assets in Cyprus?

It is only a difference in technique; the result is the same: the forced transfer of wealth from those who earned it from their labor to banks and bondholders which in a truly capitalist economy would be immediately forced to absorb the losses of their leveraged, highly risky bets.

4. The ideological fiction of capitalism is dead in Europe. Capitalism is a fiction if capital that is placed at risk for a return cannot be lost.

5. Cyprus is a test to see how blatant the expropriation of private assets can become without triggering overthrow and revolution. If the furor dies down soon enough, then the same technique of expropriation will be imposed elsewhere. If the reaction is sustained and threatening to the Aristocracy, other less blatant expropriations will be tested in other neocolonies.

6. Divide and conquer is the propaganda order of the day. The Power Elites are attempting to set the serfs of the periphery against the serfs of the core, the goal being to keep both sets of serfs from realizing they are equally indentured to the core's pathological political-financial Aristocracy.


Sry this text is straight up bullshit..

First no bank is happy to get money from their clients withdrawn by the state. They would logically rather see the tax payer pay the whole bill instead their clients (their capital) being part of it. The banks don't profitate from such measures directly or indirectly

No collecting taxes and confiscating money from bank clients is not the same. Taxes are bound to fulfill certain tasks in the common interest of the society in which they were collected. Confiscating wealth (on which taxes were already payed) is neither bound to collective interest nor is it authorized by the sovereign, the population, via voting.

Presenting banks to the risks of the market is not possible under the current legal framework, which is reckless and dangerous and would send the capitalistic system itself down the gutter in the country in which the next bust happens.

The guy who wrote this seems to be a champagner communist without even the slightest understanding of the topics he is writing about.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 20 2013 04:41 GMT
#2091
On March 20 2013 13:14 fight_or_flight wrote:
Did you guys see that New Zealand is putting together a law that would automatically take money out of bank depositors' accounts to keep a bank afloat if it needs to be bailed out?

All the other methods are being thrown out the window, such as insurance. They want to start confiscating wealth now. It's a concerted effort and more of what we'll see moving forward.

FT Alphaville had a nice alternative take on depositors "bailing-in" the banks. It's a bit long so I'm cutting out the end bit titled "On the debt-to-equity transformation".

+ Show Spoiler +
First they came for the deposits…

This won’t be popular.

But it’s an important alternative to the “it’s expropriation” view on Cyprus.

While the decision to force a bank levy on depositors creates an important precedent, it also represents something much more complex than pure confiscation or forfeiture. It’s certainly not expropriation in the communist or command economy sense, that’s for sure.

In fact, I’d argue that what it really represents is the inevitable shift away from a debt funded economy to an equity funded one.

That’s not to say the shift has been managed fairly or logically. I’m with Willem Buiter on the point that it would have been better if small island depositors had been spared. But I’m also with him on the point that this is ultimately a step in the right direction.

It all comes down to the need to capitalise failing banks with equity, and to get creditors taking responsibility for their bad investments.

I’m going to write now in general terms, and not about Cyprus specifically.

Indeed, ever since I met with Anat Admati, co-author of the Bankers’ New Clothes — an ardent advocate of more equity funding for banks — I can’t get the following point out of my head: bank creditors are far too nice/presumptuous a breed of creditor.

What that means is that the funds they provide are information insensitive — mostly because they are insured or presumed to be amongst the safest creditor claims out there on account of bank runs being so very undesirable.

The problem, of course, is that the presumption factor obscures the “information discovery” process, meaning that by the time negative information leaks into the depositor base, it usually causes a flash-crash style over-reaction. That is, when it leaks it over-leaks, causing panic, leading to depositors making irrational choices which often cause unjust bank runs.

As Admati noted to me, it’s not that information insensitive funds are intrinsically bad. Insuring deposits is and continues to be the best way to stabilise the system, and mitigate runs which might otherwise be started due to irrational or base-less over reactions. But at the same time, insurance and guarantees breed bad banking behaviour and encourage depositors and creditors to poorly evaluate risk. Banks understandably exploit the under-assessment, taking risks that they might otherwise not take.

There is accordingly a lot of logic in trying to make depositor funds more information sensitive, so that banks can be held to account by those who have some “skin in the game”.

Now back to Cyprus. What’s happening there in many ways is a path towards greater information sensitivity. Unfortunately, it’s not been fairly implemented because the levy in its current form penalises insured depositors as greatly if not more greatly than other uninsured creditors.

Forcing depositors to become holders of already compromised equity post facto thus seems particularly harsh. Remember, the reason this is being forced upon them is because Cypriot banks cannot raise fresh loss-absorbing equity any other way.

What does this really say about the state of the banks in the longer run?

Equity funding is available and “cheap” to the right businesses and projects. If it is not forthcoming, it suggests your business is most likely an unprofitable and pointless dinosaur unlikely to pay dividends in the future. This makes equity a particularly important health gauge in the age of zombie credit availability, which has the habit of sustaining unprofitable ventures for far too long. Equity, after all, is the most information sensitive funding of all. (Small surprise that the corporate trend the world over — apart from in the innovative technology sector — is currently one of de-equitisation.)

What the equity market is telling us, therefore, is that these banks are unlikely to recover unless a major restructuring takes place first. And here lies the irony of using depositors to bail-in the banks: much needed restructuring is in many ways avoided.

This means that if it hasn’t already, it’s just a matter of time before all the equity given to depositors is wiped away anyway.

On top of everything, the levy also turns the whole point of insured deposits on its head. Why should depositors be wiped before other pari passu senior debt holders, or even junior ones?

Remember, money (deposits) in many ways represent your stake in the national equity pot. That’s why deposits can be insured. Your stake in the economy never changes. What changes is the size of the pie your stake (share) represents.

What’s different in Cyprus’ case, of course, is that the size of the pie is being dictated by external forces. So it’s not the national insurance which has necessarily failed in this case, it’s that Cyprus’ external creditors have started demanding more of an already diminishing pie to compensate for broken promises. So what a depositor thought he had, he has less of. Nationalisation or no nationalisation, it’s the size of the pie that has been reduced either way.

Yet because the move is a blanket move, it’s unlikely to lead to better behaviours. There is, after all, no differentiation between healthy and less healthy banks. Information sensitivity may have risen, but not in the sort of way that encourages depositors to make smarter choices domestically. At best, they’ve only been encouraged to divert money abroad.

Meanwhile, the problem of too little equity remains.

Think of it this way. If I can persuade people to keep giving me money to look after (rather than to risk), I can continue to make poor loans — and I won’t be found out until the funding is either taken away from me completely via a depositor run (in which case I won’t have enough to give back), the bad loans are so bad I can’t even afford to pay the interest I owe (less of a problem in the zero yield environment), or last and not least the loans mature and I suffer principal loss.

The last situation can be easily masked if I can persuade new depositors to fund that loss unwittingly. Especially if I delay the realisation of those losses for as long as possible.

And that’s really what has been happening post-crisis all over the place. All deposits retained in zombie banks (rather than nationalised ones where the equity gap has been funded by government instead ) were already in reality funding such implicit losses unwittingly.

In other words, the moment you gave deposits to a bank whose loans were failing or were set to fail, you were effectively providing loss absorbing equity anyway.

The Cyprus move, in many ways, makes overt what was already the case. It just protects some parties unfairly from the process.

The good news is that depositors should now realise that when governments can’t afford to take the hit on their behalf (by nationalising the banks) or support positive deposit returns indefinitely (like the US can by giving away free national equity by means of paying IOER ), and fresh equity is not forthcoming, it’s depositors and creditors who end up bearing the risk of non-performing loans instead. Furthermore, given that banks have a tendency to delay loss realisation, that equity losses are already being weathered somewhere in the creditor base.

In short, there is already an implicit negative interest rate associated with lending to the banks. We just don’t know it.


Source
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 20 2013 04:47 GMT
#2092
On March 20 2013 13:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 13:14 fight_or_flight wrote:
Did you guys see that New Zealand is putting together a law that would automatically take money out of bank depositors' accounts to keep a bank afloat if it needs to be bailed out?

All the other methods are being thrown out the window, such as insurance. They want to start confiscating wealth now. It's a concerted effort and more of what we'll see moving forward.

FT Alphaville had a nice alternative take on depositors "bailing-in" the banks. It's a bit long so I'm cutting out the end bit titled "On the debt-to-equity transformation".

+ Show Spoiler +
First they came for the deposits…

This won’t be popular.

But it’s an important alternative to the “it’s expropriation” view on Cyprus.

While the decision to force a bank levy on depositors creates an important precedent, it also represents something much more complex than pure confiscation or forfeiture. It’s certainly not expropriation in the communist or command economy sense, that’s for sure.

In fact, I’d argue that what it really represents is the inevitable shift away from a debt funded economy to an equity funded one.

That’s not to say the shift has been managed fairly or logically. I’m with Willem Buiter on the point that it would have been better if small island depositors had been spared. But I’m also with him on the point that this is ultimately a step in the right direction.

It all comes down to the need to capitalise failing banks with equity, and to get creditors taking responsibility for their bad investments.

I’m going to write now in general terms, and not about Cyprus specifically.

Indeed, ever since I met with Anat Admati, co-author of the Bankers’ New Clothes — an ardent advocate of more equity funding for banks — I can’t get the following point out of my head: bank creditors are far too nice/presumptuous a breed of creditor.

What that means is that the funds they provide are information insensitive — mostly because they are insured or presumed to be amongst the safest creditor claims out there on account of bank runs being so very undesirable.

The problem, of course, is that the presumption factor obscures the “information discovery” process, meaning that by the time negative information leaks into the depositor base, it usually causes a flash-crash style over-reaction. That is, when it leaks it over-leaks, causing panic, leading to depositors making irrational choices which often cause unjust bank runs.

As Admati noted to me, it’s not that information insensitive funds are intrinsically bad. Insuring deposits is and continues to be the best way to stabilise the system, and mitigate runs which might otherwise be started due to irrational or base-less over reactions. But at the same time, insurance and guarantees breed bad banking behaviour and encourage depositors and creditors to poorly evaluate risk. Banks understandably exploit the under-assessment, taking risks that they might otherwise not take.

There is accordingly a lot of logic in trying to make depositor funds more information sensitive, so that banks can be held to account by those who have some “skin in the game”.

Now back to Cyprus. What’s happening there in many ways is a path towards greater information sensitivity. Unfortunately, it’s not been fairly implemented because the levy in its current form penalises insured depositors as greatly if not more greatly than other uninsured creditors.

Forcing depositors to become holders of already compromised equity post facto thus seems particularly harsh. Remember, the reason this is being forced upon them is because Cypriot banks cannot raise fresh loss-absorbing equity any other way.

What does this really say about the state of the banks in the longer run?

Equity funding is available and “cheap” to the right businesses and projects. If it is not forthcoming, it suggests your business is most likely an unprofitable and pointless dinosaur unlikely to pay dividends in the future. This makes equity a particularly important health gauge in the age of zombie credit availability, which has the habit of sustaining unprofitable ventures for far too long. Equity, after all, is the most information sensitive funding of all. (Small surprise that the corporate trend the world over — apart from in the innovative technology sector — is currently one of de-equitisation.)

What the equity market is telling us, therefore, is that these banks are unlikely to recover unless a major restructuring takes place first. And here lies the irony of using depositors to bail-in the banks: much needed restructuring is in many ways avoided.

This means that if it hasn’t already, it’s just a matter of time before all the equity given to depositors is wiped away anyway.

On top of everything, the levy also turns the whole point of insured deposits on its head. Why should depositors be wiped before other pari passu senior debt holders, or even junior ones?

Remember, money (deposits) in many ways represent your stake in the national equity pot. That’s why deposits can be insured. Your stake in the economy never changes. What changes is the size of the pie your stake (share) represents.

What’s different in Cyprus’ case, of course, is that the size of the pie is being dictated by external forces. So it’s not the national insurance which has necessarily failed in this case, it’s that Cyprus’ external creditors have started demanding more of an already diminishing pie to compensate for broken promises. So what a depositor thought he had, he has less of. Nationalisation or no nationalisation, it’s the size of the pie that has been reduced either way.

Yet because the move is a blanket move, it’s unlikely to lead to better behaviours. There is, after all, no differentiation between healthy and less healthy banks. Information sensitivity may have risen, but not in the sort of way that encourages depositors to make smarter choices domestically. At best, they’ve only been encouraged to divert money abroad.

Meanwhile, the problem of too little equity remains.

Think of it this way. If I can persuade people to keep giving me money to look after (rather than to risk), I can continue to make poor loans — and I won’t be found out until the funding is either taken away from me completely via a depositor run (in which case I won’t have enough to give back), the bad loans are so bad I can’t even afford to pay the interest I owe (less of a problem in the zero yield environment), or last and not least the loans mature and I suffer principal loss.

The last situation can be easily masked if I can persuade new depositors to fund that loss unwittingly. Especially if I delay the realisation of those losses for as long as possible.

And that’s really what has been happening post-crisis all over the place. All deposits retained in zombie banks (rather than nationalised ones where the equity gap has been funded by government instead ) were already in reality funding such implicit losses unwittingly.

In other words, the moment you gave deposits to a bank whose loans were failing or were set to fail, you were effectively providing loss absorbing equity anyway.

The Cyprus move, in many ways, makes overt what was already the case. It just protects some parties unfairly from the process.

The good news is that depositors should now realise that when governments can’t afford to take the hit on their behalf (by nationalising the banks) or support positive deposit returns indefinitely (like the US can by giving away free national equity by means of paying IOER ), and fresh equity is not forthcoming, it’s depositors and creditors who end up bearing the risk of non-performing loans instead. Furthermore, given that banks have a tendency to delay loss realisation, that equity losses are already being weathered somewhere in the creditor base.

In short, there is already an implicit negative interest rate associated with lending to the banks. We just don’t know it.


Source


this text is much better, presenting arguments and reasons why the financial sector is in dire needs of reforming and not letting it crash (with all its assets and the public wealth).
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 06:06:19
March 20 2013 05:58 GMT
#2093
edit: nvm
Do you really want chat rooms?
fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
March 20 2013 11:09 GMT
#2094
On March 20 2013 13:47 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 13:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On March 20 2013 13:14 fight_or_flight wrote:
Did you guys see that New Zealand is putting together a law that would automatically take money out of bank depositors' accounts to keep a bank afloat if it needs to be bailed out?

All the other methods are being thrown out the window, such as insurance. They want to start confiscating wealth now. It's a concerted effort and more of what we'll see moving forward.

FT Alphaville had a nice alternative take on depositors "bailing-in" the banks. It's a bit long so I'm cutting out the end bit titled "On the debt-to-equity transformation".

+ Show Spoiler +
First they came for the deposits…

This won’t be popular.

But it’s an important alternative to the “it’s expropriation” view on Cyprus.

While the decision to force a bank levy on depositors creates an important precedent, it also represents something much more complex than pure confiscation or forfeiture. It’s certainly not expropriation in the communist or command economy sense, that’s for sure.

In fact, I’d argue that what it really represents is the inevitable shift away from a debt funded economy to an equity funded one.

That’s not to say the shift has been managed fairly or logically. I’m with Willem Buiter on the point that it would have been better if small island depositors had been spared. But I’m also with him on the point that this is ultimately a step in the right direction.

It all comes down to the need to capitalise failing banks with equity, and to get creditors taking responsibility for their bad investments.

I’m going to write now in general terms, and not about Cyprus specifically.

Indeed, ever since I met with Anat Admati, co-author of the Bankers’ New Clothes — an ardent advocate of more equity funding for banks — I can’t get the following point out of my head: bank creditors are far too nice/presumptuous a breed of creditor.

What that means is that the funds they provide are information insensitive — mostly because they are insured or presumed to be amongst the safest creditor claims out there on account of bank runs being so very undesirable.

The problem, of course, is that the presumption factor obscures the “information discovery” process, meaning that by the time negative information leaks into the depositor base, it usually causes a flash-crash style over-reaction. That is, when it leaks it over-leaks, causing panic, leading to depositors making irrational choices which often cause unjust bank runs.

As Admati noted to me, it’s not that information insensitive funds are intrinsically bad. Insuring deposits is and continues to be the best way to stabilise the system, and mitigate runs which might otherwise be started due to irrational or base-less over reactions. But at the same time, insurance and guarantees breed bad banking behaviour and encourage depositors and creditors to poorly evaluate risk. Banks understandably exploit the under-assessment, taking risks that they might otherwise not take.

There is accordingly a lot of logic in trying to make depositor funds more information sensitive, so that banks can be held to account by those who have some “skin in the game”.

Now back to Cyprus. What’s happening there in many ways is a path towards greater information sensitivity. Unfortunately, it’s not been fairly implemented because the levy in its current form penalises insured depositors as greatly if not more greatly than other uninsured creditors.

Forcing depositors to become holders of already compromised equity post facto thus seems particularly harsh. Remember, the reason this is being forced upon them is because Cypriot banks cannot raise fresh loss-absorbing equity any other way.

What does this really say about the state of the banks in the longer run?

Equity funding is available and “cheap” to the right businesses and projects. If it is not forthcoming, it suggests your business is most likely an unprofitable and pointless dinosaur unlikely to pay dividends in the future. This makes equity a particularly important health gauge in the age of zombie credit availability, which has the habit of sustaining unprofitable ventures for far too long. Equity, after all, is the most information sensitive funding of all. (Small surprise that the corporate trend the world over — apart from in the innovative technology sector — is currently one of de-equitisation.)

What the equity market is telling us, therefore, is that these banks are unlikely to recover unless a major restructuring takes place first. And here lies the irony of using depositors to bail-in the banks: much needed restructuring is in many ways avoided.

This means that if it hasn’t already, it’s just a matter of time before all the equity given to depositors is wiped away anyway.

On top of everything, the levy also turns the whole point of insured deposits on its head. Why should depositors be wiped before other pari passu senior debt holders, or even junior ones?

Remember, money (deposits) in many ways represent your stake in the national equity pot. That’s why deposits can be insured. Your stake in the economy never changes. What changes is the size of the pie your stake (share) represents.

What’s different in Cyprus’ case, of course, is that the size of the pie is being dictated by external forces. So it’s not the national insurance which has necessarily failed in this case, it’s that Cyprus’ external creditors have started demanding more of an already diminishing pie to compensate for broken promises. So what a depositor thought he had, he has less of. Nationalisation or no nationalisation, it’s the size of the pie that has been reduced either way.

Yet because the move is a blanket move, it’s unlikely to lead to better behaviours. There is, after all, no differentiation between healthy and less healthy banks. Information sensitivity may have risen, but not in the sort of way that encourages depositors to make smarter choices domestically. At best, they’ve only been encouraged to divert money abroad.

Meanwhile, the problem of too little equity remains.

Think of it this way. If I can persuade people to keep giving me money to look after (rather than to risk), I can continue to make poor loans — and I won’t be found out until the funding is either taken away from me completely via a depositor run (in which case I won’t have enough to give back), the bad loans are so bad I can’t even afford to pay the interest I owe (less of a problem in the zero yield environment), or last and not least the loans mature and I suffer principal loss.

The last situation can be easily masked if I can persuade new depositors to fund that loss unwittingly. Especially if I delay the realisation of those losses for as long as possible.

And that’s really what has been happening post-crisis all over the place. All deposits retained in zombie banks (rather than nationalised ones where the equity gap has been funded by government instead ) were already in reality funding such implicit losses unwittingly.

In other words, the moment you gave deposits to a bank whose loans were failing or were set to fail, you were effectively providing loss absorbing equity anyway.

The Cyprus move, in many ways, makes overt what was already the case. It just protects some parties unfairly from the process.

The good news is that depositors should now realise that when governments can’t afford to take the hit on their behalf (by nationalising the banks) or support positive deposit returns indefinitely (like the US can by giving away free national equity by means of paying IOER ), and fresh equity is not forthcoming, it’s depositors and creditors who end up bearing the risk of non-performing loans instead. Furthermore, given that banks have a tendency to delay loss realisation, that equity losses are already being weathered somewhere in the creditor base.

In short, there is already an implicit negative interest rate associated with lending to the banks. We just don’t know it.


Source


this text is much better, presenting arguments and reasons why the financial sector is in dire needs of reforming and not letting it crash (with all its assets and the public wealth).


maybe it is in DIRE need of reforming. but everyone with half a brain should be able to see that it WON'T reform without crashing first. one step after the other.
unfortunately the point for reforming is indeed already passed long ago. reforming could have been done in 2008 after lehman's crashed, now it's impossible. banks know they can't go down, and they use this wisdom to hold the governments and the population accountable for there own mistakes. AND IT WORKS.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
March 20 2013 11:28 GMT
#2095
Anyways, what are the chances that the European parliament agreeing to help should Russia decide to step in and shoulder the rest? I am pretty sure that Russia stepping in won't be without any big concessions from Cyprus to Russia.
Jago
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland390 Posts
March 20 2013 12:13 GMT
#2096
On March 20 2013 20:28 JustPassingBy wrote:
Anyways, what are the chances that the European parliament agreeing to help should Russia decide to step in and shoulder the rest? I am pretty sure that Russia stepping in won't be without any big concessions from Cyprus to Russia.

Merkel has already said that Cyprus should only be talking with the Troika and that if they start making a deal with Russia, Troika would be widthdrawing their support. Cyprus is either counting on Troika bluffing or they are doing a haily mary and trying to get the Russians to handle the entire bailout (which won't come cheap for Cyprus).

If Cyprus offers Russia a naval base and equity in the future national gas company, Russians would probably consider it. However, it would also make Eurozone leaders incredibly pissed off, as that would greatly strenghen the grip Russia already has on the European gas market.
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 13:11:57
March 20 2013 13:02 GMT
#2097
On March 20 2013 20:28 JustPassingBy wrote:
Anyways, what are the chances that the European parliament agreeing to help should Russia decide to step in and shoulder the rest? I am pretty sure that Russia stepping in won't be without any big concessions from Cyprus to Russia.


Well Cyprus has many examples to examine of what being under a troika's memorandum means. Those deals are far from being just fiscal measures, they are mostly a force to ideologically change an economy to what common people call neoliberalism (ofc it's far more complicated).

On the other hand a deal with the Russia is expected to be a more practical solution, "we already have investments in Cyprus, you give us part of the resources and a military base and we will take care of your banks".

Now of course Cyprus is already a member of EU and eurozone and that's why they (officialy) asked first the EU for help loan but i think if they can cut a good deal with Russia and avoid the blackmail and threats from Brussels then that would be an one way road.
Hatsu
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom474 Posts
March 20 2013 14:01 GMT
#2098
I am not sure Cyprus would be allowed to give Russia a military base. Is there even a reliable source stating this as a real possibility?
Sedit qui timuit ne non succederet
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
March 20 2013 14:02 GMT
#2099
On March 20 2013 23:01 Hatsu wrote:
I am not sure Cyprus would be allowed to give Russia a military base. Is there even a reliable source stating this as a real possibility?


I don't think we (Britain) would allow that, we have a major RAF base in cyprus
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-20 14:10:41
March 20 2013 14:10 GMT
#2100
On March 20 2013 22:02 accela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 20:28 JustPassingBy wrote:
Anyways, what are the chances that the European parliament agreeing to help should Russia decide to step in and shoulder the rest? I am pretty sure that Russia stepping in won't be without any big concessions from Cyprus to Russia.


Well Cyprus has many examples to examine of what being under a troika's memorandum means. Those deals are far from being just fiscal measures, they are mostly a force to ideologically change an economy to what common people call neoliberalism (ofc it's far more complicated).

On the other hand a deal with the Russia is expected to be a more practical solution, "we already have investments in Cyprus, you give us part of the resources and a military base and we will take care of your banks".

Now of course Cyprus is already a member of EU and eurozone and that's why they (officialy) asked first the EU for help loan but i think if they can cut a good deal with Russia and avoid the blackmail and threats from Brussels then that would be an one way road.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Russia will offer a better deal than the EU (aside from the military base, not sure at all about that).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
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