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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 103

Forum Index > General Forum
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accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 19 2013 16:39 GMT
#2041
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 16:58:27
March 19 2013 16:51 GMT
#2042
Well nvm.
harlock78
Profile Joined November 2011
United States94 Posts
March 19 2013 16:51 GMT
#2043
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.



So does that leave only these 3 options?

1) Break the EU, back to currency and trade wars, with uncertain results
2) Bring up southern europe industries and economies on par with Germany through austerity and neo liberal cures, with uncertain results (especially when those countries do not have control of their monetary policies and election cycles are ~ 5 years). Might end up to point 1 anyway.

It seems normal that most politicians would rather
3) Try to find a compromise and pull the blanket a little their side, without taking radical steps, and hoping for better days.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 16:55 GMT
#2044
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
[quote]


bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:06:35
March 19 2013 16:58 GMT
#2045
On March 20 2013 01:51 harlock78 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
[quote]


bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.



So does that leave only these 3 options?

1) Break the EU, back to currency and trade wars, with uncertain results
2) Bring up southern europe industries and economies on par with Germany through austerity and neo liberal cures, with uncertain results (especially when those countries do not have control of their monetary policies and election cycles are ~ 5 years). Might end up to point 1 anyway.

It seems normal that most politicians would rather
3) Try to find a compromise and pull the blanket a little their side, without taking radical steps, and hoping for better days.


The EU should not be reduced to being a single currency. There are countries in the EU who are not members of the Euro and they are doing just fine and the EU existed long before the Euro. The binding of a common currency to the sheer survival of the institution as a whole is purely hypothetical and speculative.
mdb
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Bulgaria4059 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:27:54
March 19 2013 17:10 GMT
#2046
I`m all for the EU to split or at least my country (Bulgaria) to get out of this shit hole

Our governments have tried to keep very strict fiscal politics, almost have no budget deficit, all goverment expenses are under control, banks are stable etc etc and at the same time many many people are having troubles even finding money even to buy food. Something is very very wrong, but I dont expect some of the western countries to take responsibility for the mess in Europe so my opinion is that we should leave EU ASAP.

All the hopes of the people just vanished. What we have in reality here is economy filled with companies like Billa, carrefour, Lidl, Metro, the electrical companies are owned by Czech and Austrian governments and many more examples. Basically this means that billions of eur spent here are taken out of the country and injected into foreign economies, at the same time due to EU regulations there is almost no chance for local companies to compete with established western businesses. And on top of that there are countries like Netherlands who refuse to give us permission to even enter the Schengen zone for whatever reason. This creates immense social tension which cant lead to anything good.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 17:14 GMT
#2047
On March 20 2013 02:10 mdb wrote:
I`m all for the EU to split or at least my country (Bulgaria) to get out of this shit hole

Our governments have tried to keep very strict fiscal politics, almost have no budget deficit, all goverment expenses are under control, banks are stable etc etc and at the same time many many people are having troubles even finding money even to buy food. Something is very very wrong, but I dont expect some of the western countries to take responsibility for the mess in Europe so my opinion is that we should leave EU ASAP.


That's basically another aspect why it is simply unresponsible to continusly bail southern countries out. Since Merkel became the boogeyman people tend to forget that countries like Bulgaria or other eastern countries have to pay their share, too, despite having much lower incomes etc.
harlock78
Profile Joined November 2011
United States94 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:16:00
March 19 2013 17:14 GMT
#2048

AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 17:30 GMT
#2049
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
[quote]


bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.


fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
March 19 2013 17:40 GMT
#2050
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
March 19 2013 17:42 GMT
#2051
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


Read before you write. He said

On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.


fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
March 19 2013 17:45 GMT
#2052
On March 20 2013 02:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


Read before you write. He said

Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.



yup, and i said it's wrong because he is NOT LEFT LEANING. he is just as neoliberal as Merkel is, therefore german policy of austerity won't change with Steinbrück. so why exactly should Hollande prefer him over Merkel?
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 17:50:26
March 19 2013 17:46 GMT
#2053
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


I am well aware of this. But the race will be between Steinbrück and Merkel and out of the two Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück because of more left leaning politics. The point is pretty clear and obvious to be honest and not a matter of opinion.

That's why Steinbrück, Gabriel and Steinmeier already had a nice meeting in France with photoshootings and stuff. Linke has exactly zero chance to win the elction. Oh and the term neoliberal gets mainly used in science to describe reagonomics and Maggy Thatcher. Steinbrück doesn't play in this league.
fleeze
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany895 Posts
March 19 2013 17:52 GMT
#2054
On March 20 2013 02:46 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


I am well aware of this. But the race will be between Steinbrück and Merkel and out of the two Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück. That's why Steinbrück, Gabriel and Steinmeier already had a nice meeting in France with photoshootings and stuff. Linke has exactly zero chance to win the elction. Oh and the term neoliberal gets mainly used in science to describe reagonomics and Maggy Thatcher. Steinbrück doesn't play in this league.


neoliberal stands for privatizing government, cutting social systems, subsidies for big industries and banks and currently austerity.
the definition fits with steinbrück perfectly.

and no Hollande won't be more happy with Steinbrück as Hollande opposes austerity which Steinbrück supports.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:04:39
March 19 2013 17:56 GMT
#2055
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.

Of course nominal wages rose stronger (market rigidity). But the biggest part of the population didn't see any increase in their wage, as their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job. It does not end up in an amelioration of their revenu at all. I should not have said wage, it was a shortcut.

It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:02:24
March 19 2013 18:01 GMT
#2056
On March 20 2013 02:45 fleeze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


Read before you write. He said

On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.



yup, and i said it's wrong because he is NOT LEFT LEANING. he is just as neoliberal as Merkel is, therefore german policy of austerity won't change with Steinbrück. so why exactly should Hollande prefer him over Merkel?


And I point out again: he never claimed that Steinbrück is left leaning, he said he was more left leaning than Merkel.
edit: It's like how 1000000 isn't a small number, but it is a smaller number than 1000001.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 18:04 GMT
#2057
On March 20 2013 02:56 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.

Of course nominal wages rose stronger. But for the average of the population, didn't see any increase in their wage, and their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job.

It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place.


I actually agree with you I just come to other conclusions. Make the cut, take the losses and from our german perspective start to look out for alternative markets as structural reform and future gains in productivity (and the possibility of sending "flux" back) in the crisis countries seems to be rather unlikely for me.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 18:05 GMT
#2058
On March 20 2013 03:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:45 fleeze wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:42 JustPassingBy wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:40 fleeze wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.




omg, really? you just said steinbrück (and therefore SPD) are LEFT LEANING. they are just as neoliberal as merkel, fdp and the green party. they support austerity and the merkel politic.
german voters don't even have an alternative, besides the real left wing party (named DIE LINKE, which will not end up in government, since SPD and Green party will never form a coalition with them) and the Pirates (a JOKE of a party in germany without any direction or agenda).
the corresponding party to hollandes politics would be DIE LINKE btw, SPD is more conservative and neoliberal then even sarkozys party.


Read before you write. He said

On March 20 2013 02:30 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:39 accela wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.


You are wrong, plain and simple.
I started writing about the pure terrorism sponsored by EU during the election period in Greece, Ireland, nowdays in Italy too so people vote for the "correct" parties. I would write for the unelected technocats imposed by EU but, you know what, if you never heard any of this 3 years now probably doesnt matter.


Like in Italy? No, for example Hollande clearly prefers Steinbrück to win the german election simply out of political affection as the more left leaning candidate. This doesn't take away the responsibility of the german voter. Hollande doesn't have a vote in Germany, Merkel not in Greece or France. You are shifting away the responsibility of your own decisions.



yup, and i said it's wrong because he is NOT LEFT LEANING. he is just as neoliberal as Merkel is, therefore german policy of austerity won't change with Steinbrück. so why exactly should Hollande prefer him over Merkel?


And I point out again: he never claimed that Steinbrück is left leaning, he said he was more left leaning than Merkel.
edit: It's like how 1000000 isn't a small number, but it is a smaller number than 1000001.


You are so gentle and patient
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:29:36
March 19 2013 18:18 GMT
#2059
On March 20 2013 03:04 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 02:56 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.

Of course nominal wages rose stronger. But for the average of the population, didn't see any increase in their wage, and their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job.

It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place.


I actually agree with you I just come to other conclusions. Make the cut, take the losses and from our german perspective start to look out for alternative markets as structural reform and future gains in productivity (and the possibility of sending "flux" back) in the crisis countries seems to be rather unlikely for me.

You are dooming them to several years of deflation because of Germany and Europe, so I don't see why they should stay in the current EU. The flux are all going to germany not only because of the quality of its good or its production, but also because of Europe and specifically the euro that gives a big boost to Germany's competitivity as is underevaluated. It's not only a problem of "how can I gain productivity so that flux goes back".

I leave that here because I feel it is one of the most simple explanation of the current problem
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/news-archive/end-of-eurozone
When Greece was bailed out by a joint eurozone-IMF rescue package back in May, it was clear that the deal had bought only a temporary respite. Now the other shoe has dropped. With Ireland’s troubles threatening to spill over to Portugal, Spain and even Italy, it is time to rethink the viability of Europe’s currency union.

These words do not come easily, as I am no Euroskeptic. Unlike others, such as my Harvard colleague Martin Feldstein, who argue that Europe is not a natural monetary area, I believed that monetary union made perfect sense in the context of a broader European project that emphasized - as it still does - political institution-building alongside economic integration.

Europe’s bad luck was to be hit with the worst financial crisis since the 1930s while still only halfway through its integration process. The eurozone was too integrated for cross-border spillovers not to cause mayhem in national economies, but not integrated enough to have the institutional capacity needed to manage the crisis.

Consider what happens when banks in Texas, Florida or California make bad lending decisions that threaten their survival. If the banks are merely illiquid, the Federal Reserve in Washington is ready to act as a lender of last resort. If they are judged to be insolvent, they are allowed to fail or are taken over by federal authorities, while depositors are made whole by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Similarly, in case of bankruptcy, federal laws and courts readily adjudicate claims among creditors, and do so without regard to state borders. Regardless of the outcome, private debt is not socialized by state governments (but by the federal government, if at all), and does not threaten public finances at the state level.

State governments in turn have no legal power to abrogate debt contracts vis-a-vis out-of-state creditors, and no incentive to do so (given the help they get from the federal government). So, even in the throes of a financial crisis, banks and non-financial firms can continue to borrow if their balance sheets are sound, uncontaminated by the “sovereign risk” of their state government. Meanwhile, the federal government makes up for a good chunk of the drop in state incomes by transfers or reduced taxes. Workers who nonetheless have it bad can move easily to better-performing states without worries about language differences or culture shock. Almost all of this happens automatically, without long, contentious negotiations among state governors and federal officials, assistance from the IMF, or calling into question the existence of the United States as a unified political-economic entity.

So the real problem in Europe is not that Spain or Ireland has borrowed a lot, or that too much Spanish and Irish debt sits on banks balance sheets elsewhere in Europe. After all, who cares about Florida’s current-account deficit - or even knows what it amounts to? No, the real problem is that Europe has not created the union-wide institutions that an integrated financial market requires.

This reflects the absence of adequate political institutions at the center. The European Union has taught us valuable lessons over the last few decades: first, that financial integration requires eliminating volatility among national currencies; next, that eradicating exchange-rate risk requires doing away with national currencies altogether; and now, that monetary union is impossible, among democracies, without political union.

It should have been expected that the political side of the equation would take time to fall into place. It is easy to blame European politicians for lack of leadership. But let us not underestimate the magnitude of the task that European governments took on.

In fact, the closest analogue to it is America’s own historical experience with building a federal republic. As the long American struggle for “states’ rights” - and indeed the Civil War - shows, creating a political union out of a collection of self-governing entities is hardly a smooth or speedy process.

States naturally cherish their sovereignty. Worse still, economic union itself can fan the fires of nationalism and endanger political integration. It places strains on each country’s institutions (seen in the pressure on Europe’s welfare states), breeds resentment against foreigners (witness the recent success of anti-immigration parties) and renders financial crises originating from abroad both likelier and costlier (as the current situation makes all too clear).

Alas, it may now be too late for the eurozone. Ireland and the southern European countries must reduce their debt burden and sharply enhance their economies’ competitiveness. It is hard to see how they can achieve both aims while remaining in the eurozone.

The Greek and Irish bailouts are only temporary palliatives: they do nothing to curtail indebtedness, and they have not stopped contagion. Moreover, the fiscal austerity they prescribe delays economic recovery. The idea that structural and labor market reforms can deliver quick growth is nothing but a mirage. So the need for debt restructuring is an unavoidable reality.

Even if the Germans and other creditors acquiesce in a restructuring - not from 2013 on, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel has asked for, but now - there is the further problem of restoring competitiveness. This problem is shared by all deficit countries, but is acute in Southern Europe. Membership in the same monetary zone as Germany will condemn these countries to years of deflation, high unemployment and domestic political turmoil. An exit from the eurozone may be at this point the only realistic option for recovery.

A breakup of the eurozone may not doom it forever. Countries can rejoin, and do so credibly, when the fiscal, regulatory and political prerequisites are in place. For the moment, the eurozone may well have reached the point where an amicable divorce is a better option than years of economic decline and political acrimony.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 18:37:25
March 19 2013 18:30 GMT
#2060
On March 20 2013 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 03:04 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 02:56 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:55 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:32 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]

I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).


Well , I just googled a bit and found out that the nominal wages in many european countries (many crisis countries among them, coincidence) rose stronger than the productivity in the last decades. unfortunately I couldn't find actual data (let's say 2005-2012) via googling a bit around.

I also don't share the notion that ones export is the other one's debt. That just happens if your income can't match your consume. This goes for the private consumer as well as for countries and lies not in the responsibility of the guy selling you a product. We live in capitalistic societies in which the consumer is free to make his own decision, but he is also accountable for said decisions.

Of course nominal wages rose stronger. But for the average of the population, didn't see any increase in their wage, and their disposable revenue only increased through a socialisation of the said revenu (which means, an increase in the revenu they get through social transfer and the like). Nominal wages goes up, but so are inequalities and part time/precarious job.

It's not about sharing option, it's simple mathematic : if a country gives 3 millions to the other, and the other doesn't gives those 3 millions back, you have 3 millions less, even if you can compensate those three millions by producing more. It's not a question of buying and selling, it's a question of flux: if all the flux end up in the same place with no way for the flux to go back to where they came from, those flux will stack up in that place.


I actually agree with you I just come to other conclusions. Make the cut, take the losses and from our german perspective start to look out for alternative markets as structural reform and future gains in productivity (and the possibility of sending "flux" back) in the crisis countries seems to be rather unlikely for me.

You are dooming them to several years of deflation because of Germany and Europe, so I don't see why they should stay in the current EU.

I leave that here because I feel it is one of the best and simple explanation of the current problem
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/news-events/news/news-archive/end-of-eurozone
Show nested quote +
When Greece was bailed out by a joint eurozone-IMF rescue package back in May, it was clear that the deal had bought only a temporary respite. Now the other shoe has dropped. With Ireland’s troubles threatening to spill over to Portugal, Spain and even Italy, it is time to rethink the viability of Europe’s currency union.

These words do not come easily, as I am no Euroskeptic. Unlike others, such as my Harvard colleague Martin Feldstein, who argue that Europe is not a natural monetary area, I believed that monetary union made perfect sense in the context of a broader European project that emphasized - as it still does - political institution-building alongside economic integration.

Europe’s bad luck was to be hit with the worst financial crisis since the 1930s while still only halfway through its integration process. The eurozone was too integrated for cross-border spillovers not to cause mayhem in national economies, but not integrated enough to have the institutional capacity needed to manage the crisis.

Consider what happens when banks in Texas, Florida or California make bad lending decisions that threaten their survival. If the banks are merely illiquid, the Federal Reserve in Washington is ready to act as a lender of last resort. If they are judged to be insolvent, they are allowed to fail or are taken over by federal authorities, while depositors are made whole by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

Similarly, in case of bankruptcy, federal laws and courts readily adjudicate claims among creditors, and do so without regard to state borders. Regardless of the outcome, private debt is not socialized by state governments (but by the federal government, if at all), and does not threaten public finances at the state level.

State governments in turn have no legal power to abrogate debt contracts vis-a-vis out-of-state creditors, and no incentive to do so (given the help they get from the federal government). So, even in the throes of a financial crisis, banks and non-financial firms can continue to borrow if their balance sheets are sound, uncontaminated by the “sovereign risk” of their state government. Meanwhile, the federal government makes up for a good chunk of the drop in state incomes by transfers or reduced taxes. Workers who nonetheless have it bad can move easily to better-performing states without worries about language differences or culture shock. Almost all of this happens automatically, without long, contentious negotiations among state governors and federal officials, assistance from the IMF, or calling into question the existence of the United States as a unified political-economic entity.

So the real problem in Europe is not that Spain or Ireland has borrowed a lot, or that too much Spanish and Irish debt sits on banks balance sheets elsewhere in Europe. After all, who cares about Florida’s current-account deficit - or even knows what it amounts to? No, the real problem is that Europe has not created the union-wide institutions that an integrated financial market requires.

This reflects the absence of adequate political institutions at the center. The European Union has taught us valuable lessons over the last few decades: first, that financial integration requires eliminating volatility among national currencies; next, that eradicating exchange-rate risk requires doing away with national currencies altogether; and now, that monetary union is impossible, among democracies, without political union.

It should have been expected that the political side of the equation would take time to fall into place. It is easy to blame European politicians for lack of leadership. But let us not underestimate the magnitude of the task that European governments took on.

In fact, the closest analogue to it is America’s own historical experience with building a federal republic. As the long American struggle for “states’ rights” - and indeed the Civil War - shows, creating a political union out of a collection of self-governing entities is hardly a smooth or speedy process.

States naturally cherish their sovereignty. Worse still, economic union itself can fan the fires of nationalism and endanger political integration. It places strains on each country’s institutions (seen in the pressure on Europe’s welfare states), breeds resentment against foreigners (witness the recent success of anti-immigration parties) and renders financial crises originating from abroad both likelier and costlier (as the current situation makes all too clear).

Alas, it may now be too late for the eurozone. Ireland and the southern European countries must reduce their debt burden and sharply enhance their economies’ competitiveness. It is hard to see how they can achieve both aims while remaining in the eurozone.

The Greek and Irish bailouts are only temporary palliatives: they do nothing to curtail indebtedness, and they have not stopped contagion. Moreover, the fiscal austerity they prescribe delays economic recovery. The idea that structural and labor market reforms can deliver quick growth is nothing but a mirage. So the need for debt restructuring is an unavoidable reality.

Even if the Germans and other creditors acquiesce in a restructuring - not from 2013 on, as German Chancellor Angela Merkel has asked for, but now - there is the further problem of restoring competitiveness. This problem is shared by all deficit countries, but is acute in Southern Europe. Membership in the same monetary zone as Germany will condemn these countries to years of deflation, high unemployment and domestic political turmoil. An exit from the eurozone may be at this point the only realistic option for recovery.

A breakup of the eurozone may not doom it forever. Countries can rejoin, and do so credibly, when the fiscal, regulatory and political prerequisites are in place. For the moment, the eurozone may well have reached the point where an amicable divorce is a better option than years of economic decline and political acrimony.


By making the cut I mean get out of the EURO. I would rather see my own country out of it, will surely sting in the short run, but i doubt it will stop the country from being competitive and good at selling stuff in the long run, just presents a new set of challenges, like preventing an eventual DM 2.0 from going through the roof (Switzerland does this quite well with their currency).

I wouldn't bother about Greece going out either. For me it was a currency built upon political utopia from the get go (and everybody in the political spheres of the accepting countries was on board, so let's not start the blame game).

Underevaluation or not my problem. Not like export orientation didn't work at all with a strong currency. Not every product is price sensitive. My first concern is to prevent further tax monay from getting sent towards the south in the long run this will only work via structural reform/gaining competetiveness in the market in crisis countries or cutting off the ties with the EU. 1 would be preferable from my point of view, if it doesn't work out (I see that as more realistic) it should be time for my country to leave the sinking ship. I guess many people from northern Europe see this similar. I guess this is one of the reasons for the latest popularity of eurosceptic political parties in different countries (like UKIP in GB and true finns in Finland). I guess Eastern Euros are also fed up as their countries are comparably poor and they still have to pay up.
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