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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 101

Forum Index > General Forum
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Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
March 18 2013 15:26 GMT
#2001
--- Nuked ---
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 16:04:51
March 18 2013 15:39 GMT
#2002
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The assets in Cypriot banks are roughly 8 times the GDP of Cyprus!

The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
March 18 2013 16:05 GMT
#2003
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
March 18 2013 16:07 GMT
#2004
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.

Cyprus apparently doesn't want that solution, they want to their banking sector to be bailed out.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 16:17:39
March 18 2013 16:10 GMT
#2005
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The assets in Cypriot banks are roughly 8 times the GDP of Cyprus!

The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


That is just one opinion, mind you. There are also people who do not share that opinion.
edit: Not that I see a problem with taxing the people with assets over 100k.
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
March 18 2013 17:27 GMT
#2006
Cyprus isn't getting a bailout.

The banks who lent money to Cyprus are getting bailed out. (once you follow the cash)


I want to believe that since there is no real way to kick somebody out of the EU...they offered Cyprus this horrible deal and hope they leave.

I mean..pissing off the Russian billionaires? Do they need any more incentive to replace their Syrian port of Tartus with a Cypriot one? It's right next door. I can also see Gazprom pipelines to northern europe needing to "undergo emergency maintenance" very soon.

I don't want to belive that the EU is so fragile and so hyper leveraged that a tiny country of 1.1 million people defaulting is the spark that triggers financial armageddon.
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
March 18 2013 17:33 GMT
#2007
On March 19 2013 02:27 RCMDVA wrote:
Cyprus isn't getting a bailout.

The banks who lent money to Cyprus are getting bailed out. (once you follow the cash)


I want to believe that since there is no real way to kick somebody out of the EU...they offered Cyprus this horrible deal and hope they leave.

I mean..pissing off the Russian billionaires? Do they need any more incentive to replace their Syrian port of Tartus with a Cypriot one? It's right next door. I can also see Gazprom pipelines to northern europe needing to "undergo emergency maintenance" very soon.

I don't want to belive that the EU is so fragile and so hyper leveraged that a tiny country of 1.1 million people defaulting is the spark that triggers financial armageddon.


Its not really Cyprus bringing down the whole euro project its more the eurocrats/Merkel bringing it down. They promised to protect deposits below 100k euros for every EU citizen. Now through a pretty shocking technicality they are taking money from those deposits under 100k euros. So now the principle is there they can take money from Spanish/Italian/Portuguese banks which hardly give any interest payments for savings anyway. The logical response from people then is to take their money out of these banks in case they get hit by a "levy" which will cause the financial collapse of all those banks, which will spread to france because they are heavily exposed etc etc.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 18 2013 17:58 GMT
#2008
On March 19 2013 02:27 RCMDVA wrote:
Cyprus isn't getting a bailout.

The banks who lent money to Cyprus are getting bailed out. (once you follow the cash)


I want to believe that since there is no real way to kick somebody out of the EU...they offered Cyprus this horrible deal and hope they leave.

I mean..pissing off the Russian billionaires? Do they need any more incentive to replace their Syrian port of Tartus with a Cypriot one? It's right next door. I can also see Gazprom pipelines to northern europe needing to "undergo emergency maintenance" very soon.

I don't want to belive that the EU is so fragile and so hyper leveraged that a tiny country of 1.1 million people defaulting is the spark that triggers financial armageddon.

Actually standards for how to exclude countries are being worked on. Granted: It is mostly in response to Hungarys dictator and his constant (absurd) changes to their constitution, but theoretically it can be used in other situations!
It is a preliminary discussion, but there seems to be a good deal of countries supporting it.

Russia is getting hit, but so are Turkey and Greece. I think the response from Russia depends on how many friends and how good friends of Putin are affected. I doubt they are willing to smash their very lucrative deals with EU.

As for "armageddon", Cyprus is about 0.2 % of the european economy. It is rather insignificant amounts to pour in a hole, but if Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy and the new european countries see it as a good deal, europe will implode because of the demands for "same deals".
Repeat before me
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 18:07:24
March 18 2013 18:02 GMT
#2009
On March 19 2013 02:27 RCMDVA wrote:
Cyprus isn't getting a bailout.

The banks who lent money to Cyprus are getting bailed out. (once you follow the cash)


I want to believe that since there is no real way to kick somebody out of the EU...they offered Cyprus this horrible deal and hope they leave.

I mean..pissing off the Russian billionaires? Do they need any more incentive to replace their Syrian port of Tartus with a Cypriot one? It's right next door. I can also see Gazprom pipelines to northern europe needing to "undergo emergency maintenance" very soon.

I don't want to belive that the EU is so fragile and so hyper leveraged that a tiny country of 1.1 million people defaulting is the spark that triggers financial armageddon.



It is realy fragile,and its also a matter of confidence and a presedent. When (not if) citizens from spain and italy start fearing the same they will empty their banks to deposit it with german and swiss banks instead, crashing the southern banks.
People will already start moving monney even before anny event happens, just to be sure, and that will only be a catalist for the event to happen.It almost looks like they are purposely aiming for this.
Guess and hope this is just blufpoker to force the russians to contribute as well, if this realy is the end plan then that will be the end of europe and a complete collapse of the euro financial system within 1 year.
Think a huge amount of monney has been transfered from ital and spain banks today already.
Specially italy should be woried,if i was italien i would transfer all my funds today to a bank in swiss or japan.


Its not really Cyprus bringing down the whole euro project its more the eurocrats/Merkel bringing it down. They promised to protect deposits below 100k euros for every EU citizen

Merkel didnt guarantee that for every citizen,every state is responsible for their own deposits and guarantee on that.
The netherlands bought out a bank and they didnt get anny support from the eu at all, they had to pay it with their own taxpayers monney.
Only 6 more months and then merkel is re-elected. Then the euro presses will start printing euros on a huge scale and we will start enjoying the same artificial wealth and growth the usa has known for the past 10 years.
Thats why the stockmarket now dont crash, all big players now this flood of monney will hit the eurozone soon to facilitate another bubble.
Trowa127
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1230 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 19:31:51
March 18 2013 18:18 GMT
#2010
On March 19 2013 01:07 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.

Cyprus apparently doesn't want that solution, they want to their banking sector to be bailed out.


The constant Iceland misinformation does my nut in, it really does. Please stop propagating lies. Iceland tried EVERYTHING to save its banks, they simply couldn't find anyone stupid enough to front the cash for it. http://studiotendra.com/2012/12/29/what-is-actually-going-on-in-iceland/ - read it, please. Its written by an actual Icelandic citizen, not some guardian journalist who couldn't find Iceland on a map. Iceland didn't want that solution at all (and no, they haven't 'jailed the bankers' either).

Secondly, you honestly think the EU is going to fuck with the Russians? They import 40% of their gas from the Russians, 30% of their oil and about the same for coal and Russia are building a pipeline to supply the Asian markets.. how hard would it be for them to turn off the gas! Its not like they haven't done it before.

Anyway, expect more of this, probably in one of the PIGS next (even though the European banks have all been receiving back door hand outs from the ECB) but maybe even France. This is what happens when you don't recap your banks..
Bling, MC, Snute, HwangSin, Deranging (<3) fan. 'Full name - ESP ORTS' Vote hotbid. Vote ESPORTS.
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 18 2013 19:44 GMT
#2011
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The assets in Cypriot banks are roughly 8 times the GDP of Cyprus!


If Cyprus is a money haven then Luxemburg is Dante's money inferno all the way to paradiso plus the recently expanded floors.
Seriously, we are well into 3 years in this economic crisis (collapse) and still depend on populistic excuses badly made by the same corrupt media...
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10705 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 19:59:41
March 18 2013 19:58 GMT
#2012
Yeah, but Luxeumburg is not a failing state.


And that "economic" collaps... We wouldn't even really notice that there is a crisis in Switzerland, Germany, Austria and several other countries if not for the news / south europe dragging everything into the shitter..
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:11:42
March 18 2013 20:09 GMT
#2013
Much respect for Iceland for paying 9 months ago 700 M€ (1/5 of total loan) 6 months early. Well it was due year 2013, so dont know if it was 18 months but still. Nordic countries says thank you
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 21:07:36
March 18 2013 20:54 GMT
#2014
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 18 2013 21:07 GMT
#2015
I still have trouble to believe that our beloved european politicians are downright robbing Cyprus's citizens. I wouldn't have thought that this would be possible in this day and age.

This is such a blatant violation of individual property rights, people should be free to stop it with all means necessary.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 18 2013 21:08 GMT
#2016
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


And who decides which article is bad and which one is good? political dogma?
Trowa127
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1230 Posts
March 18 2013 21:16 GMT
#2017
On March 19 2013 06:07 AngryMag wrote:
I still have trouble to believe that our beloved european politicians are downright robbing Cyprus's citizens. I wouldn't have thought that this would be possible in this day and age.

This is such a blatant violation of individual property rights, people should be free to stop it with all means necessary.


According to a source in the Greek government they are going to remove the levy on any amounts under 100,000.
Bling, MC, Snute, HwangSin, Deranging (<3) fan. 'Full name - ESP ORTS' Vote hotbid. Vote ESPORTS.
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 21:25:04
March 18 2013 21:19 GMT
#2018
On March 19 2013 04:44 accela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The assets in Cypriot banks are roughly 8 times the GDP of Cyprus!


If Cyprus is a money haven then Luxemburg is Dante's money inferno all the way to paradiso plus the recently expanded floors.
Seriously, we are well into 3 years in this economic crisis (collapse) and still depend on populistic excuses badly made by the same corrupt media...

I never said Luxembourg isn't a money haven.

People should read this to better understand the situation:
http://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime/?p=3352

And 800% of the GDP is certainly an unusual amount. For comparison:

[image loading]

Granted, these are only the major banks, but in most of the cases they hold a majority of the assets.

On March 19 2013 06:16 Trowa127 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 06:07 AngryMag wrote:
I still have trouble to believe that our beloved european politicians are downright robbing Cyprus's citizens. I wouldn't have thought that this would be possible in this day and age.

This is such a blatant violation of individual property rights, people should be free to stop it with all means necessary.


According to a source in the Greek government they are going to remove the levy on any amounts under 100,000.

I certainly hope so, it's the only sensible option.
Yuljan
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
2196 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 23:19:16
March 18 2013 23:14 GMT
#2019
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."
C[h]ili
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany167 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 09:46:29
March 19 2013 09:45 GMT
#2020
I would have wished for a participation of bank owners - for example via debt equity swaps - but overall I am satisfied with the terms and conditions of the bail-out offer for Cyprus.

Let me first of all clarify a common missconception. Not the finance ministers of the Euro countries, but rather the Cypriot government is to blame for the participation of small investors. Mr Schäuble stated on Sunday that it is up to the Cypriot government to decide how to collect 5.9 bn € from bank deposits, and he signalized that he would be happy if only large investors would be affected. Yesterday and today, Euro finance ministers signalized that they would welcome if all deposits below 100,000 € would be exempted. However, it is the Cypriot government that does not want to do it. While the Euro finance minister suggested the exemption, the proposal currently discussed by the Cypriot government is to protect deposits below 20,000 €. Given this background, some common perceptions are totally unintelligible.The EU has given a guarantee for all deposits below 100,000€. If the Cypriot government decided not to honour this pledge, it is not the EU's fault. Also, Cypriot's savers are blaming the Troika or more often Germany for their losses, while the one that would be to blame is their own government. I can only speculate as to the motives of the Cypriot government, but it maybe that they want to protect foreign investors or their status as a money haven.

The Eurozone countries have offered Cyprus a loan of 10 bn €, under the condition that Cyprus finds 5.9 bn € from other sources. Cyprus needs money primarily to bail-out its banks. Cyprus is a small and rather unimportant economy. The sums involved are so small that it is unlikely that Cypriot banks form a systemic threat to the much larger Euro financial markets. Cyprus is important to the Euro zone only because it may affect confidence in the markets and while there were some signs for market turmoil on Monday morning, markets have been pretty calm in total. In the best case, market agents accepts that Cyprus is an exceptional case and no precedent for other Eurozone countries. And indeed there are good reasons to believe so: Cyprus is small, much money at stake is from Non-Eurozone investors, and, as argued above, the EU is still commited to protect small depositors. Hence, while it is somewhat of a gamble to risk market confidence for "only" 5.9 bn €, I would presume that the bail-out package is well designed.

Currently, it looks like the bail-out offer will not pass Cyprus' parliament. The consequence would be a bank run on Friday once banks reopen. Cyprus' banks would go bust, and because the government does not have the money to protect deposits, Cypriots will loose all their savings. This unordered default would have domestic, rather than international effects. Cyprus is too small to be of economic importance. Confidence would not erode because unordered default is not a consequence of malfunctioning European policies, but rather solely the fault of Cyprus. Taken together, there is no reason to be worried at all - unless you are a Cypriot.

Let me close with the remark that, sadly, the Euro crisis is inducing more nationalism. I have always felt more European than German, and giving some of our taxpayer money to European fellows in need is ok for me. But rather than being grateful, people in Southern Economies are potraying Mrs Merkel as a Nazi. Rather than looking for their malfunctioning government, they are blaming Mrs Merkel and Mr Schäuble. Germany now risks loosing up to 800 bn €, but in return we are not getting gratitude and promises of structural reform, but rather political chaos and hate. The only answer to that can be to turn more nationalistic, and to focus more on what is good for Germany.

This also involves increasing the participation of foreign investors. The US, the UK, the IMF and who the fuck else have put enormous pressure on Germany to bail-out southern economies - because of obvious self-interest. The Euro is just the currency we use to exchange goods and services, and it does not imply shared liabilities. It is good that Russian and British investors will now loose part of their money.
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