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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 102

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arbiter_md
Profile Joined February 2008
Moldova1219 Posts
March 19 2013 10:09 GMT
#2021
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.


I don't understand why other countries don't consider doing the same? If the bank can't pay it's debts, let it go bankrupt. Start the procedure and go according to the laws.

You can take care also of bureaucrats from national bank of the country who should have supervised those banks.

Yes, there are money to be paid for deposits. For that there should be those money from the mandatory deposits that banks put at the national bank for this exact case.

It's so much absurdity with this crisis, it's incredible. Those who are at fault should pay. Let those banks go bankrupt. Other banks will appear instead. Better and more healthy.
The copyright of this post belongs solely to me. Nobody else, not teamliquid, not greetech and not even blizzard have any share of this copyright. You can copy, distribute, use in commercial purposes the content of this post or parts of it freely.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 10:48:48
March 19 2013 10:33 GMT
#2022
On March 19 2013 19:09 arbiter_md wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.


I don't understand why other countries don't consider doing the same? If the bank can't pay it's debts, let it go bankrupt. Start the procedure and go according to the laws.

You can take care also of bureaucrats from national bank of the country who should have supervised those banks.

Yes, there are money to be paid for deposits. For that there should be those money from the mandatory deposits that banks put at the national bank for this exact case.

It's so much absurdity with this crisis, it's incredible. Those who are at fault should pay. Let those banks go bankrupt. Other banks will appear instead. Better and more healthy.



No, the big banks are tied to our system as a whole. If you let big banks go bancrupt others will follow (Bank A holding shares of Bank B and C, bank B holding shares od A D and so on). banks protect their investments via reinsurance companies which will be the next in the line who are fucked. . All these corporations have in common that they survive with the minimal amount of proprietary capital ( around 3% of the money floating around in credits, investments etc.), the rest gets financed via credits of other institutes and solely exists in the pc, there is no "real" money behind it. The banks are tied to each other (very smart decision by the "makers" of the financial sector), but outrageous that this is legal.

There will be no credits for the states, pension funds will bust (and with them the life savings of many citizens), public housing will stop (no credits for housing because no one will insure the investment) etc.


Iceland didn't just let their banks bust, they tried everything to save them, but it didn't work out. As Iceland sometimes gets used as a positive case, just look at the numbers for average wage, gdp and other economic measures since November 2008. Currency lost 30% on a single day. For the average Icelander it didn' really work out well. As someone else already pointed out the cyproitivc banks are much bigger and own far more deposits. Let them go bust and a lot of cypriots will lose everything they saved over their lives. Oh and Iceland was saved by the IMFwhich saved the country from going bancrupt (saving all the pensions, the healthcare system etc.), it is not like Iceland did it itself. Without help from outside (several billions for 300.000 icelanders) the country would have gone down the shitter in a spectacular way.


In Asia banks aren't allowed such reckless business practices and they didn't go down the shitter, but the laws regarding business practices of european banks must be changed drastically before we can go back to the normal capitalistic risk of going bust for failing on the market or we will have a bank crisis every ten years, because the financial sector knows it will get away with it, because they have the national economie's at the nuts. Whoever made these practices legal should be put on the wall.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6209 Posts
March 19 2013 11:35 GMT
#2023
On March 19 2013 19:33 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 19:09 arbiter_md wrote:
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.


I don't understand why other countries don't consider doing the same? If the bank can't pay it's debts, let it go bankrupt. Start the procedure and go according to the laws.

You can take care also of bureaucrats from national bank of the country who should have supervised those banks.

Yes, there are money to be paid for deposits. For that there should be those money from the mandatory deposits that banks put at the national bank for this exact case.

It's so much absurdity with this crisis, it's incredible. Those who are at fault should pay. Let those banks go bankrupt. Other banks will appear instead. Better and more healthy.



No, the big banks are tied to our system as a whole. If you let big banks go bancrupt others will follow (Bank A holding shares of Bank B and C, bank B holding shares od A D and so on). banks protect their investments via reinsurance companies which will be the next in the line who are fucked. . All these corporations have in common that they survive with the minimal amount of proprietary capital ( around 3% of the money floating around in credits, investments etc.), the rest gets financed via credits of other institutes and solely exists in the pc, there is no "real" money behind it. The banks are tied to each other (very smart decision by the "makers" of the financial sector), but outrageous that this is legal.

There will be no credits for the states, pension funds will bust (and with them the life savings of many citizens), public housing will stop (no credits for housing because no one will insure the investment) etc.


Iceland didn't just let their banks bust, they tried everything to save them, but it didn't work out. As Iceland sometimes gets used as a positive case, just look at the numbers for average wage, gdp and other economic measures since November 2008. Currency lost 30% on a single day. For the average Icelander it didn' really work out well. As someone else already pointed out the cyproitivc banks are much bigger and own far more deposits. Let them go bust and a lot of cypriots will lose everything they saved over their lives. Oh and Iceland was saved by the IMFwhich saved the country from going bancrupt (saving all the pensions, the healthcare system etc.), it is not like Iceland did it itself. Without help from outside (several billions for 300.000 icelanders) the country would have gone down the shitter in a spectacular way.


In Asia banks aren't allowed such reckless business practices and they didn't go down the shitter, but the laws regarding business practices of european banks must be changed drastically before we can go back to the normal capitalistic risk of going bust for failing on the market or we will have a bank crisis every ten years, because the financial sector knows it will get away with it, because they have the national economie's at the nuts. Whoever made these practices legal should be put on the wall.


China's banks are pretty reckless and a tool for politicians and Japans banks were very reckless in the Japanese asset price bubble.
Anyway the equity and liquidity requirements have been going up with the recent Basel III though it's arguable if it's too much or not enough.
Basel III
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 13:11:40
March 19 2013 12:55 GMT
#2024
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
March 19 2013 14:26 GMT
#2025
On March 19 2013 19:09 arbiter_md wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:05 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:39 Maenander wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:26 Sated wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:17 Maenander wrote:
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

Guess who isn't the Cypriot Government..?
The people who are having to pay for this.


Cyprus is a money haven, and the EU is understandably reluctant to save the money of shady Russian oligarchs. The German finance minister claims that the details of the savings levy are in Cypriot hands, which means they could still exempt deposits of less than 100.000€.

Iceland had pretty much the same problems and the Icelandic government guaranteed only savings up to a certain value. Icelandic deposit losses were more severe than what is proposed now. And all of that without any involvement of the Euro.


Iceland let their banks go bankrupt and saved just the deposits to a certain point.

thats a huge difference.


I don't understand why other countries don't consider doing the same? If the bank can't pay it's debts, let it go bankrupt. Start the procedure and go according to the laws.

You can take care also of bureaucrats from national bank of the country who should have supervised those banks.

Yes, there are money to be paid for deposits. For that there should be those money from the mandatory deposits that banks put at the national bank for this exact case.

It's so much absurdity with this crisis, it's incredible. Those who are at fault should pay. Let those banks go bankrupt. Other banks will appear instead. Better and more healthy.



The banks got us by the balls. If we don't do what they need our economic system will collaps.

There are no good solutions left.
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 14:29:11
March 19 2013 14:28 GMT
#2026
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 15:18:26
March 19 2013 14:34 GMT
#2027
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 15:20 GMT
#2028
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 15:31:45
March 19 2013 15:31 GMT
#2029
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 15:42:48
March 19 2013 15:41 GMT
#2030
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 15:55:32
March 19 2013 15:46 GMT
#2031
Cyprus's finance minister just resigned.

(lol... the guy a couple hours ago was on a flight to Russia... did he resign while IN Russia??!?)


6 hours ago (below)

Cypriot Finance Minister Michalis Sarris headed Tuesday to Moscow for what looked certain to be awkward talks -- two days before the head of the European Commission, a member of the bailout "troika," also lands in Moscow to meet Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev.

WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 15:50:04
March 19 2013 15:48 GMT
#2032
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

[quote]
lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries through fiscal redistribution (at least for the up coming 10 years).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 15:53 GMT
#2033
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
[quote]

One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-19 16:04:15
March 19 2013 16:01 GMT
#2034
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
On March 19 2013 05:54 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]Quoting a bad article is the way to go. I'm amazed at how naive you can be to really think the standard of living in Germany has decreased because of the Europe : sure it has nothing to do with the reunification, the rising inequalities, and the politics that Germany voted for.

Anyway, the current Europe - with those inequalities between members - is less and less profitable for anyone.

Here is a valid discussion about Germany's trade surplus :
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2011/07/hugo-salinas-price-and-michael-pettis.html
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.fr/2012/08/germany-6-current-account-surplus.html


Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible too, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the same currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.
So either we forget about Europe as a whole, or we rethink europe as a political union and not an economical mess.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 19 2013 16:04 GMT
#2035
On March 20 2013 00:46 RCMDVA wrote:
Cyprus's finance minister just resigned.

(lol... the guy a couple hours ago was on a flight to Russia... did he resign while IN Russia??!?)


Why you think they gonna send him to Siberia for supporting the haircut? :p
His resignation is on hold for the moment in seems.
Despite the rumors for more delays (already 2 days off) the discussion for the cypriot bailout will begin today and is expected to be voted down. The ruling party will absent so the decision to be unanimous (or close to it).
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 16:14 GMT
#2036
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 08:14 Yuljan wrote:
[quote]

Libertarian propaganda? Yes thats really valid.

This is getting even better.
"Although Mish (aka Mike Shedlock) is not an economist by training, he adroitly gets into the thick of economic data. Mish uses observations made by those in major media, so-called experts and government officials and serves up analysis based on his impression of their relevance and validity. The author is not afraid to attack conventional wisdom."

This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

hoemuffin
Profile Joined September 2010
United States72 Posts
March 19 2013 16:15 GMT
#2037
The whole handling of the Cyprus fiasco is so breathtaking incompetent the EU should rename itself entirely useless. It sets a horrific precedent, and I have no idea why anybody would put their money in a European bank. European banks have ALWAYS been undercapitalized compared to US banks (even in 08-09), and to be clear NO European bank (well maybe HSBC & Stan Char, but they're European in name only) is going to be solvent if a breakup in the Euro occurs. Cyprus blowing up probably isn't going to be a big deal, but the question is what happens if Spain, Greece, or Italy come knocking. In the next two weeks, the ECB's going to be publishing details of its ELA, and that'll be the first clue we have on whether or not there's any stress in the banking sector. Fun times.
AngryMag
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1040 Posts
March 19 2013 16:16 GMT
#2038
On March 20 2013 01:04 accela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 00:46 RCMDVA wrote:
Cyprus's finance minister just resigned.

(lol... the guy a couple hours ago was on a flight to Russia... did he resign while IN Russia??!?)


Why you think they gonna send him to Siberia for supporting the haircut? :p
His resignation is on hold for the moment in seems.
Despite the rumors for more delays (already 2 days off) the discussion for the cypriot bailout will begin today and is expected to be voted down. The ruling party will absent so the decision to be unanimous (or close to it).



They will not even show up for their own proposal? Seriously this is so embarassing, I actually start to support the sending to Sibiria thing
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
March 19 2013 16:21 GMT
#2039
So it looks like he did make it to Moscow.

Cypriot Finance Minister Michalis Sarris is about to be replaced upon his return from his current trip to Moscow, Kathimerini understands, as he no longer enjoys the support of President Nicos Anastasiades following his handling of the crisis.


http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_19/03/2013_488623


But on another site, they're saying that the President has rejected the resignation.

And CNBC says resignation not accepted. https://twitter.com/CNBC
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
March 19 2013 16:32 GMT
#2040
On March 20 2013 01:14 AngryMag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2013 01:01 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:53 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:48 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:41 AngryMag wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:31 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 20 2013 00:20 AngryMag wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:34 WhiteDog wrote:
On March 19 2013 23:28 Gaga wrote:
On March 19 2013 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
This shows why your article is bad. Stop arguing about the front cover and dig the arguments a little. I don't really care about Mike Sheldlock, but in the link I showed, he just plainly describe how target 2 works and how the current deficit in weaker european countries comes with a surplus in Germany.
Unlike what you try to imply with a god damn bad article, Germany is not giving goods "for free". It is giving goods against a debt (debt that can be sold etc.) but that will not have any value if the said country decide to default. If the system was not in place, Germany would not have any surplus, which means Germany would not export so many goods, and its economical growth would suffer from it (that's why Germans Politicians are happy with the said surplus, quite funny that a german see in the same surplus the reason for why Germany is "suffering" from Europe). That's also the reason why Germany comes to the rescue of Greece, Chypre and so on : if Greeks were to declare default, their assets (debt) will losts its value, and not only the banking system will suffer from it, but also the country that trade the most with Greece... yeah Germany.
In the article you showed, a lot of things don't makes any sense : he says that export from 99 to 2011 increased by 115% and economica growth only by "1.5%" a year, but it doesn't mean at all that Germany is suffering more than others. Exports and trade overall always increase more than economical growth since like 1960, and a 2% growth is not necessarily better than a 1.5% growth (YEAH it depend on the base PIB that have this increase, +1.5 out of 10 000 is better than +2% out of 5000, hard to understand ? the idea that small country will eventually catch up exist since Solow's model). Not to mention a 1.5 growth a year during 10 year is... a growth of around 57%... yeah numbers.
Also, he is implying that the rise in inequalities, the decrease in germans' conditions of living, has anything to do with Europe : I'm amazed that it has nothing to do with Germany's politics (the rise of precarious and part time labor), fiscal redistribution, etc. Germany is not the victim of Europe, and to understand that you have to dig a little in Economy, even if it's at a low level like Mike Sheldlock's (who I don't know about, was just trying to find an article that actually talk about the trade system for you and found this). I'm not necessarily implying that Europe, in the long run, is always good for Germany, but saying Germany suffer from Europe since 1999 is like one of the most stupid thing I've read. The Europe is basically a free trade union and the country that is suffering from it is the country that is the most developped towards exportations ? lol

Chypre is an entirely different set up, the Island is divided, it is a small country with 250 000 inhabitants, with no really asset or economical perspective, that has built itself with low taxation on capital.



bolded part is the core of the shit. We deliver goods for dept that is worth nothing (in case of greece, spain) -> Thats in my book giving stuff for free.

Whatever, people like you are the reason Europe is fucked up.
Germany out of Eurozone then, since it is the victim. Back to mark please (as a French, I would love that, making PSA or Fiat - because I'm closer to Italy than Germany - more competitive both in and out of the euro zone).


Yeah I agree. Rather take the economic hit now and be done with it than prolong it over the next decades as the underlying issues won't be solved regardless of bailout or no bailout.

Of course it will never be solved, because a currency union is not optimal with no fiscal redistribution and unification. Everybody knows that, the EU is completly undermined by its own differences - with countries such as Greece that still have a underdevelopped XIXth century agronomic sector on one side, some middle tier countries like France or Italy, and a great economy developped toward industry with a mercantilist economic policy such as Germany.


I am pretty sure that there would be no sustainable majorities for a fiscal union of any kind in the northern member states. It would mean to risk systems which proved themselves to be relatively well functioning in the last decades for an uncertain future with partners who are, rightly or wrongly, perceived as not very reliable.

Let's put it in another way : there are no economical advantages for nothern countries to march toward a fiscal union in the EU. Only disadvantages actually, because it will eventually push toward a system where northern countries "help" southern countries (or PIGS) just like richest neighborhood help poorest neighborhood in most countries (at least for the up coming 10 years).


Yes, to put it clearly. There would be no long term majorities for continuus financial aid towards southern countries. European treaties were already blatantly violated (no bailout clause), in the long run such a system would not be tolerated. I support this notion, I don't accept transfers of my taxes towards Southern Europe.

It's completly understandable, but in this situation, southern countries position is impossible, because they have no way to protect themselves in order to build up a modern and competitive industry while they are facing German's competition, backed up by a underevalued currency while the currency is overevalued for them, and all that in a freetrade area. The current situation will only tumble further and further toward account surplus for germany and debt for southern countries and it is not sustainable.



I partially agree. The analysis of the debt spiral is correct I think. But we shouldn't forget: The standard of living increased greatly in the countries now hit by the crisis in the last 20 or so years. All the countries made the decision to join themselves. From these points I come to the next one:

If the situation is considered unsastainable in these countries, there politicians should grab their balls and just go on and do what they think is right. You cannot accept bailouts and then whine about the conditions put forward by the creditors. If it is indeed right what the finance minister of Cyprus resigned (today of all days, possibly some days before the country goes belly up) it is a good example for this behaviour. Leaving ship and leave the people who elected you alone as hard situations arise.

The people of the crisis countries should stop shifting blame and start to hold their own guys responsible instead of pointing the finger to the creditors, who set conditions which can be accepted or not, for decisions made by politicians in the crisis countries and not in the EU. As said the EU only sets conditions, the acceptance of these conditions come from the political classes in Spain, Cyprus or Greece who then start to whine afterwards.

I don't see why europe should be considered as one of the major reason why the standard of living has increased. The wages since 20 years has stagnated in all Europe (Germany too), the inequalities raised, economical growth is almost inexistant. It's not about shifting blame, it's how it is. Greece had one of the most modern and competitive naval industry prior to the Union, now it has been completly dismantled and bought out piece by piece.
Germany cannot wish for more trade surplus, and then blame other for having deficit, because those two situations goes together. The only difference is that Germany is the one with the money. It's a bad equilibrium.

I agree that the politicians of southern countries, and their lack of courrage, are one of the most important reason as to why we are in this situation now, but I don't see why the individuals, being Greeks or Chyprians should be responsible for the quality of their elite: they are only suffering from that situation. Greece unemployment rate is at 26.8% (the highest in europe), their gross average wage is around 26k USD a year in 2011, losing more than 2k USD last year alone (Germany is at 40k and it is pretty low in comparaison to most equally developped countries).
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
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