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The European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 100

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Yuljan
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
2196 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-17 19:41:52
March 17 2013 19:36 GMT
#1981
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.
ihOpe
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
192 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-17 19:49:45
March 17 2013 19:48 GMT
#1982
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone

Mario Draghi 'has Germany by the throat'. Photograph: Mario Vedder/AP
The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.

thats my point. Germany focused on the private sector/manufacturing/exports. This has paid off but is starting to show its flaws in Germany's pretty under-funded public sector. Also Germany is interconnected by companies not in germany. Enel is a pretty major electricity player in most of europe right? And it is getting crapped on because it is partly owned by the Italian government, which is submersed in financial problems right now.

My point on exports was that germany decided to focus on THAT. South korean government decided to focus on infrasturcture and broadband in the 1990s-2000s and look where they are now. For every action there is a consequence and because of Germany's focus towards strong exports, they are now paying the consequence for disregarding areas such as the public sector and other regional economic disputes
terran hots stream ---> http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/iheartEDM
Yuljan
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
2196 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-17 19:56:42
March 17 2013 19:55 GMT
#1983
On March 18 2013 04:48 iheartEDM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone

Mario Draghi 'has Germany by the throat'. Photograph: Mario Vedder/AP
The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.

thats my point. Germany focused on the private sector/manufacturing/exports. This has paid off but is starting to show its flaws in Germany's pretty under-funded public sector. Also Germany is interconnected by companies not in germany. Enel is a pretty major electricity player in most of europe right? And it is getting crapped on because it is partly owned by the Italian government, which is submersed in financial problems right now.

My point on exports was that germany decided to focus on THAT. South korean government decided to focus on infrasturcture and broadband in the 1990s-2000s and look where they are now. For every action there is a consequence.


And where exactly do the flaws show off? A global crisis like the last financial crisis would be the only major worry for us, if we had not helped the rest of europe at all. The whole world is interconnected by companies so I dont really see your argument there. Enels troubles are because the public sector in the southern countries is way to bloated and not sustainable in any way so I dont see why our somewhat leaner public sector is a problem.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
March 17 2013 20:39 GMT
#1984
On March 18 2013 02:53 aksfjh wrote:
Sometimes it feels like the EU actually wants a collapse.

EU is a weak construction. A lot of the countries have more or less unbalanced parliaments with far more EU-friendly politicians than what you see in the public. In Denmark, the weakness of the anti-EU parties was making it easy for the politicians to throw sovereignty to EU even though they need a 5/6th of the parliament to agree to part with sovereignty while a significant part of the population is sure to vote no (36% last they measured wanted Denmark out of EU) and many of the rest are taking a stance from case to case. It is one of the reasons why the far right and far left are starting to look like France (Latest poll was showing liberals as largest and nationalists as second largest, followed by social democrats and a union of communists and other far left parties. Earlier it was traditionally liberals and socialists dominating, with green socialists, conservatives and nationalists far behind in third to fifth).

As more power is moved to EU, the no-parties are having a field day because of the very extensive lack of democracy in EU. That is also why the votes on the patent office and maybe financial pact (they are trying to make interpretations not giving away sovereignty in a judicially binding way to avoid a vote...) are likely to be voted down (Well, that and the historically almost universally hated current government).

People are frustrated with EU and how slow they are at everything, except coming up with insanely complex and mostly useless laws for the national parliaments to waste time on implementing.

A popular saying in the EU council and the parliament at the moment is: "We know exactly what we need to do to stop the crisis, we just haven't found a way to get elected afterwards."
Repeat before me
grigorin
Profile Joined December 2009
Austria275 Posts
March 17 2013 21:49 GMT
#1985
On March 18 2013 04:24 sekritzzz wrote:
Oh what a surprise. Euro zone crisis back in the headlines. This is never going to be over until the EU breaks up or is at least split in two halves. The EU was created for political reasons but it is economically unsustainable unless they, the EU becomes one country(which i doubt many want).


Edit: also it would be wise for anyone, ANYONE with money in EU banks, in particular Greek, Spanish, Irish, Italian or Portuguese banks to withdraw their money and buy real estate or other non-confiscatory asset. This isn't the first incident where the troika have broken international finance rules and committed outright theft of the people and I don't expect it to be the last. Then again we can always believe the beauracrats that this is a "one-off" incident.


Ever heard of forced mortgage (germany 1948)?
EmperorKira
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom107 Posts
March 17 2013 22:03 GMT
#1986
Its absolute theft. Thank god it seems that it won't happen to the UK banks. The hell i'm going to lose my savings because the fat-cats gambled wrong.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
March 17 2013 22:09 GMT
#1987
On March 18 2013 07:03 EmperorKira wrote:
Its absolute theft. Thank god it seems that it won't happen to the UK banks. The hell i'm going to lose my savings because the fat-cats gambled wrong.


You mean the Cyprus story? Well, not saying that I support that action, but if you were to lose money, then because the fat-cats gambled wrong AND you put your eggs into their nests.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21687 Posts
March 17 2013 22:17 GMT
#1988
On March 18 2013 07:09 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 07:03 EmperorKira wrote:
Its absolute theft. Thank god it seems that it won't happen to the UK banks. The hell i'm going to lose my savings because the fat-cats gambled wrong.


You mean the Cyprus story? Well, not saying that I support that action, but if you were to lose money, then because the fat-cats gambled wrong AND you put your eggs into their nests.


how do you put your eggs in there basket?
The common folk had little to no vision on this nor did they have much choice. You can say they voted for em but most people dont understand government finances and will not be able to see if there country is doing this.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 18 2013 01:15 GMT
#1989
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
March 18 2013 01:27 GMT
#1990
Hopefully Cyprus just leaves the Euro instead of accepting these bailout conditions, then other countries can follow and actually get their economies and democracies back on track.
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
March 18 2013 01:39 GMT
#1991
On March 18 2013 07:03 EmperorKira wrote:
Its absolute theft. Thank god it seems that it won't happen to the UK banks. The hell i'm going to lose my savings because the fat-cats gambled wrong.

Man, that is short sided.
So, if it comes from your income taxes, then bails and bonds for private banks counted in billions is ok, but if they want to levy from your savings it turns into 'absolute theft'?
isaachukfan
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada785 Posts
March 18 2013 01:50 GMT
#1992
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.

Thanks for the article, it was a very enlightening read. It seems to me as though Germany has a lot more at stake in this whole crisis then meets the eye, everyday the spend in the Euro would continue to weaken them through these unsecured TARGET2 loans, but if they leave then all the PIIGS default and their central bank collapses. I hope Merkel can lead Germany out of this properly if that's even possible.....Do any eurobros know anything about Germany's endgame plan for this crisis.
I'm a mennonite, yes I'm allowed to use a computer
sekritzzz
Profile Joined December 2010
1515 Posts
March 18 2013 03:04 GMT
#1993
On March 18 2013 06:49 grigorin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:24 sekritzzz wrote:
Oh what a surprise. Euro zone crisis back in the headlines. This is never going to be over until the EU breaks up or is at least split in two halves. The EU was created for political reasons but it is economically unsustainable unless they, the EU becomes one country(which i doubt many want).


Edit: also it would be wise for anyone, ANYONE with money in EU banks, in particular Greek, Spanish, Irish, Italian or Portuguese banks to withdraw their money and buy real estate or other non-confiscatory asset. This isn't the first incident where the troika have broken international finance rules and committed outright theft of the people and I don't expect it to be the last. Then again we can always believe the beauracrats that this is a "one-off" incident.


Ever heard of forced mortgage (germany 1948)?

Could you provide a link or background on this? I couldn't find much information on it and would like to read more about it/how it happened.
Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 03:26:17
March 18 2013 03:08 GMT
#1994
good summary on the cyprus situation here

"While this kind of 'wealth tax' has been predicted, as we noted yesterday, this stunning move in Cyprus is likely only the beginning of this process (which seems only stoppable by social unrest now). To get a sense of both what just happened and what its implications are, RBS has put toegther an excellent summary of everything you need to know about what the Europeans did, why they did it, what the short- and medium-term market reaction is likely to be, and the big picture of this "toxic policy error." As RBS summarizes, "the deal to effectively haircut Cypriot deposits is an unprecedented move in the Euro crisis and highlights the limits of solidarity and the raw economics that somebody has to pay. It is also the most dangerous gambit that EMU leaders have made to date." And so we await Europe's open and what to expect as the rest of the PIIGSy Banks get plundered."

On March 18 2013 12:04 sekritzzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 06:49 grigorin wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:24 sekritzzz wrote:
Oh what a surprise. Euro zone crisis back in the headlines. This is never going to be over until the EU breaks up or is at least split in two halves. The EU was created for political reasons but it is economically unsustainable unless they, the EU becomes one country(which i doubt many want).


Edit: also it would be wise for anyone, ANYONE with money in EU banks, in particular Greek, Spanish, Irish, Italian or Portuguese banks to withdraw their money and buy real estate or other non-confiscatory asset. This isn't the first incident where the troika have broken international finance rules and committed outright theft of the people and I don't expect it to be the last. Then again we can always believe the beauracrats that this is a "one-off" incident.


Ever heard of forced mortgage (germany 1948)?

Could you provide a link or background on this? I couldn't find much information on it and would like to read more about it/how it happened.


i only have a german source http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lastenausgleichsgesetz

basically you had to pay 50% on your wealth (mainly real estate)

To be able to do that you where forced to get a mortage loan that you had to pay off in 30 years.

it was justifed with the cause to pay for those who had lost everything in the war.


the crazy part is that this could be done again. There even was a member of parliament who proposed to use it in the context of the financial crisis.

LaNague
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany9118 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 03:45:34
March 18 2013 03:43 GMT
#1995
On March 18 2013 10:50 isaachukfan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.

Thanks for the article, it was a very enlightening read. It seems to me as though Germany has a lot more at stake in this whole crisis then meets the eye, everyday the spend in the Euro would continue to weaken them through these unsecured TARGET2 loans, but if they leave then all the PIIGS default and their central bank collapses. I hope Merkel can lead Germany out of this properly if that's even possible.....Do any eurobros know anything about Germany's endgame plan for this crisis.




i dont know, i feel like at the start someone decided to stay in the euro, then we invested and invested and the price of failure went up and up.
I dont know how far my government would go to save the euro, but the public is getting uneasy and the political doings of some EU members are not helping the situation at all.
But afterall, i hope my government realizes that a currency is just a stupid currency. We sacrificed so much to have a strong industry, why would swapping the currency make people not want to buy out stuff all of a sudden.

Maybe its a good thing that stuff is starting to fail. The EU expanded way too quickly and has members in it that have nothing in common with the original founders.
Maybe its time to face inwards again and fix the problem that way have a harsh work enviroment like in the US without having the upside of low taxes and high wealth of the top.educated people.



If it was me, id probably try to get cyprus and greece and other to leave the euro by making demands they wont fullfill.
Mabe someone is trying that right now with cyprus...







i very much doubt the government would make all germans pay 50% of everything they own to pay for the debts of spain and greece. That will never happen. There would be severe consequences that noone wants.

Gaga
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany433 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 04:01:59
March 18 2013 03:56 GMT
#1996
On March 18 2013 12:43 LaNague wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 10:50 isaachukfan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:36 Yuljan wrote:
On March 18 2013 04:06 iheartEDM wrote:
heh I read that about cyprus too. My main problem with this is that the bail out was equal to about 100% of Cyrpus's GDP. As a person who has hope, I see almost none in which Cyprus would be able to pay off this bailout in a conformed manner.

On March 18 2013 03:48 Yuljan wrote:
We need to leave the EU sooner or later. A union can only function if all member countries share the same values and work ethic. Not even the allies, who forced us into the euro, will object if we leave now...

lmfao. Says from someone from germany... you realize that recently because of the euro's weak currency strength as of late, German exports have thrived in an otherwise period of economic distress. Merkel, understandably, screwed herself with the budget regulations set into place which provides no wiggle room for loaning more bail outs.

I think the EU collapse was more because political infrastructure to deal with crisis like this was not implemented within the 20 years of the Euro's creation and now these measures are slowly being put into place. What is left is who is going to get the best of each policy created


One or two years of rising exports is sure worth a big depressions, because growing exports is good right? By the way the biggest reason why our exports are thriving in this time is because we increased our competiveness in the last 15 years by not raising wages and focusing on exports to the US and Asia.

Here is a nice article about how we are getting fucked by most of europe right now.



+ Show Spoiler +

Germany is not profiting from the eurozone


The FT's newly ordained "person of the year", the ever sardonically smiling ECB president, Mario Draghi, recently addressed Germany's co-operative banks: eurozone trade, he claimed, accounted for a staggering 40% of Germany's entire GDP. Not a single eyebrow was raised in the audience. The truth is somewhat different: total exports are equivalent to around 43% of Germany's GDP and the eurozone accounts for less than 37% of total exports, according to recently revised figures. That means that exports to the eurozone nominally account for roughly 15% of German GDP. This share will fall further. In reality, however, the contribution of the eurozone to the German economy is even smaller. The reason for this is simple: the eurozone countries do not pay for most imports from Germany; most of Germany's current account surplus is financed by the Bundesbank.

Between 1998 and 2011, German exports grew by over 115%. Export growth, however, did not translate into economic growth. According to Eurostat, during 1998-2011 Germany grew at an average annual rate of close to 1.4%, compared to around 1.5% for France, 1.8% for the Netherlands, 2.7% for Sweden, 2% for Britain, and average growth of 1.7 % for the EU as whole. Germany also lagged significantly behind the United States which achieved over 2%. Only Japan, Italy, Portugal and, according to some calculations, Denmark performed worse than Germany.

While German industry has enjoyed record export and profit growth, ordinary Germans have not had much economic joy over the past 13 years. As Charles Dumas of Lombard Street Research has demonstrated, real personal disposable income per capita rose by just over 7% from 1998 to 2011, compared to growth of 13% for Spain and around or over 18% for Britain, France and the US. German income growth lagged behind almost all OECD countries; only Italy and Japan performed worse. Germany today is a poorer country compared to many EU members than it was in 1998.

For most Germans real wages and living standards have not risen for 20 years, and Germany's once envied welfare, health and pensions system is being dismantled. Inequality has also risen. Despite Germany's low unemployment rate, poverty has grown markedly. Nationwide over 15% of Germans fall below the poverty rate – defined in terms of 60% of the average net income or below.

In the 15 largest German towns – which is the most reliable indicator of social trends – the percentage of the poor rose to 19.6% in 2011. These trends are continuing. Unlike German wages, the earnings of the top executives of Germany's largest companies have risen by several hundred per cent since 1998. Germany has in many respects become a low-wage economy, with rapidly rising inequality and a catastrophic demography.

So why has Germany's export boom not led to higher growth and living standards? Besides wage depression, the key explanation for this apparent paradox, Hans-Werner Sinn of the Ifo-Institute has shown, lies in the deceptively innocuously named European Central Bank's inter-banking payments settlement system for cross-border trade, services and capital transfers within the eurozone, known as Target2. Every time money flows from the banks of one euro member country to the banks of another, it does so through the Target system (unless, of course, the money flows across the border as cash in a suitcase).

The basic mechanism of this system is simple enough: let's assume a Spanish company orders 50 state-of-the-art diesel engines from a German manufacturer. Once the German exporter has delivered the engines, the Spanish importer will advise his bank to transfer the agreed purchase price. The Spanish bank will initiate the transfer through the Spanish central bank, which will credit, ie enter a liability on its accounts in favour of, the German Bundesbank, which in turn credits the sum to the bank of the German exporter. The Spanish importer gets his machines, the German exporter receives his money, but – and here's the twist – the money never leaves Spain and it never enters Germany. Instead, the Bundesbank receives a Target2 claim against the Bank of Spain.

On 30 November 2012 the Target2 claims by the Bundesbank against other eurozone central banks stood at €715bn (£581bn).Through its Target2 credits, the Bundesbank is financing German export and current account surpluses within the eurozone because southern Europe has never had the money to import German goods on such a scale. The Bundesbank's Target2 credits amount to about two thirds of its entire balance sheet. They are entirely unsecured.

Many commentators, including the Bundesbank, have countered that these are merely accounting numbers in a settlement system. Within the eurozone, it all balances out to zero. No need to lose sleep over it. This is, to say the least, disingenuous. Let's assume you lend £100 to your brother, who is having "balance of payments" difficulties. Within the family we have +£100 for one of the members, and -£100 for another. Nets out to zero within the family. But that does not make you sleep any better. What if your brother cannot surmount his balance of payments difficulties and simply defaults on paying you back?

Germany's total exports in 2011 were €1.06 tn. Of those, around 37% went to the eurozone. From November 2011 to November 2012 alone the Bundesbank's Target2 claims rose by around €220bn. This means that in recent years, well over half of Germany's total eurozone exports have been financed by the Bundesbank, which is broadly equivalent to Germany's current account surplus with the eurozone. Its Target2 "loans" ensure German industry gets its money. For €220bn the Bundesbank could have financed the sale of 11m VW Golf cars to the German population. For the total €715bn "lent" to the eurozone so far, the Bundesbank could have almost re-equipped the entire German passenger vehicle market of 43m cars with new VW Golfs free of charge.

If the Bundesbank had printed and invested the money at home, it could have stimulated domestic demand, or reduced German public indebtedness to well under the 60% of GDP required by the Maastricht treaty. The Target2 system instead forces the Bundesbank to act as a supremely inefficient German sovereign wealth fund which is allowed to invest in one type of asset only: public and private southern eurozone debt. This German "wealth destruction" fund allows the euro countries to buy German goods they cannot afford and provides German industry with a multibillion euro export subsidy, which it does not need.

Draghi has Germany by the throat. Through the Target2 system the ECB is forcing the Bundesbank to underwrite a large part of Germany's eurozone exports with public money. With his unlimited bond-buying programme, the former Goldman Sachs banker is further encouraging governments and bankrupt banks in southern Europe (as well as France and, to a lesser extent, throughout the eurozone), to recycle and socialise their toxic debt via the ECB and by means of inflation, low interest rates and/or re-capitalisation of the ECB with German, Finnish or Dutch money.

The euro has benefited German industry, but it is expropriating the German saver and the German taxpayer. As the system works well for Germany's export industry, German politicians can tell the German people that all is well in the "best of all possible worlds". If the euro were wound up today, Germany would stand to lose hundreds of billions. Through the rescue funds, government bond buys and Target2 system the ECB and the German government are propping up a system that is ultimately unsustainable. With the euro rescue, Germany is shackled to a corpse. Germany's Panglossian politicians refuse to accept that even now Germany would be better off cutting her losses. Draghi, meanwhile, has not lost sight of his project for the "lirafication" of the euro and busily pours liquidity into the financial market at negligible interest – in defiance of his mandate and the EU treaties, to the eurozone's ultimate doom and to sustain the profits of international investment banks.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/07/germany-not-profiting-eurozone-export-boom

Please dont tell me we benefit from this again. The only argument german politicians are bringing up for this is because the euro would ensure peace in europe. Although it is apparent that the crisis is increasing tension and the continued bailouts make war more not less likely. This may take a decade but europe is heading down to a dangerous path.

Thanks for the article, it was a very enlightening read. It seems to me as though Germany has a lot more at stake in this whole crisis then meets the eye, everyday the spend in the Euro would continue to weaken them through these unsecured TARGET2 loans, but if they leave then all the PIIGS default and their central bank collapses. I hope Merkel can lead Germany out of this properly if that's even possible.....Do any eurobros know anything about Germany's endgame plan for this crisis.



i very much doubt the government would make all germans pay 50% of everything they own to pay for the debts of spain and greece. That will never happen. There would be severe consequences that noone wants.



as much as the public takes without rioting. ofc 50% would do that.

but you know the story of how to boil a frog ?

let the temperature rise slowly ... 4 years in now i just wonder how slowly they will be able to let the temperature rise.
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 18 2013 04:20 GMT
#1997
Some remarks
*This Monday is an orthodox holiday so banks will remain closed. Gov also announced that they will remain shut on Tuesday and imo will go farther if there won't be an agreement (or because a not favorable one

*ATMs in Cyprus are already empty. There are rumors that there are already billion of euros of withdraw orders to be carried out by the time banks will open. For sure the 20b euros of russian deposits are to be considered lost.

*The minor party in coalition asks not to be austerity measures beyond the haircut on bank deposits and, also, for some short of guarantees to be made for the lost money of the unavoidable bank run. Of course it is already known that a team from IMF is already dispatched from US and discussions will be held for pensions and wages cuts.

*Even if all the parties in coalition vote in favor of the haircut they are still one (1) vote short.
accela
Profile Joined February 2010
Greece314 Posts
March 18 2013 04:27 GMT
#1998
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)
YMCApylons
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Taiwan359 Posts
March 18 2013 06:00 GMT
#1999
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...
You must construct additional pylons.
Maenander
Profile Joined November 2002
Germany4926 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 15:39:03
March 18 2013 15:17 GMT
#2000
On March 18 2013 15:00 YMCApylons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2013 13:27 accela wrote:
On March 18 2013 10:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Whatever the case Anastasiades and his party won't see another term I'm sure.


The funny thing is that he elected only few days ago and during the election period he made explicitly clear that he would never sign a memorandum that would include a haircut to the bank deposits. There is a video with his statement. Democracy works (rly!)


[image loading]

Defying the ECB and the international bankers is a risky business. Ever wonder why they don't try to solve the debt by telling the bond-holders to take a haircut, rather than the depositors? Guess who holds the bonds...

Guess who held the bonds in case of Greece:
Cypriot banks among others

Guess who couldn't afford the haircut:
Cypriot banks

Guess who couldn't support their overblown and now collapsing banking sector:
Cypriot government

So the Greek haircut is among the reasons for Cyprus current problems. Of course the Evangelos_Florakis_Naval_Base_explosion didn't help.
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