also the part about alcohol and weed making you worse at being social is funny
Why College Students Have Trouble Growing Up - Page 3
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
also the part about alcohol and weed making you worse at being social is funny | ||
DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
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pubbanana
United States3063 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On December 03 2009 06:15 Virtue wrote: ding ding ding! you win! Frankly people who push college as a way of making yourself have a happy life is bullshit now of days many people can go into a trade(such as a mechanic or carpenter) and achieve financial stability and independence much quicker with a whole lot less trouble. Only diff is how you see your job in relation to your social status, frankly to me hell it's the money for the time that i need to work that counts who the hell cares if i get dirty. I bet a whole lot less students would stop drinking and parting all the time if they had to pay for their own shit 100%. Hell most of my friends that don't drink (they are in colleges in Cali) are those who have to pay for everything them selves. College is great for 2 things 1 parting and getting shitfaced 24/7 2 just learning nice little things that may or may not help you in your jobs to come. And what do you have to pay when you're parents are paying all the fees? Just need to not fail out of college basically the system is the parents pay for their kids to party in hopes that they wont have to have troubles getting jobs etc. But everyone I knew that wasn't already interning at places had a fuck time hard getting a job after college hell i know 4 people that went back for their doctorates just to avoid looking for a job. What ever happened to the pre 1970's America where a grocer could retire conformable instead of having to take 3 jobs just to stay afloat. You argument seems to completely ignore that sector of our economy known as waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc. They drink and party 24/7 and pay for all of it themselves. And they don't go to college. Most all the people I know who don't go to college either end up working as a waiter, bartender, drug-dealer, or jail-bed warmer. | ||
Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On December 03 2009 04:45 CharlieMurphy wrote: so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied. Or maybe they have too much homework. People I knew with part time jobs usually didn't have enough time to complete all their school work or study for exams, or they went to school part time. | ||
ForSC2
United States580 Posts
On December 03 2009 04:11 Emon_ wrote: http://www.coloradocollege.edu/Publications/access/december1996/7GrowUp.html A philosophy professor gives his views on the expectations of college students and the obstacles they face. Interesting read. + Show Spoiler + Why College Students Have Trouble Growing Up By JOHN RIKER Philosophy Professor Having talked in depth with CC students about their college experiences and read about student life at other colleges and universities, I find that institutions of higher education usually provide excellent environments for cognitive development, yet have trouble providing students with an adequate environment for social, moral or psychological growth. The result is that many students, feeling that they do not have the maturity of self or depth of personal skills to confront the difficult problems of adulthood, show a reluctance to enter the world beyond college. They are afraid of marriage and other adult forms of intimacy, and tremble at having to enter professional life. They invent wonderful stories for themselves and their parents about needing time off or wanting to travel after college, but often behind these marvelous plans lies a terrible fear: that they simply are not ready for the adult world. They are not ready because something did not happen during the college years that should have -- they did not grow up. Ever since the 1970s when colleges relinquished the notion that they should act like parents (the doctrine of in loco parentis), they have let students construct their own social and personal lives with few restrictions and little guidance. Students, of course, welcomed this change -- even demanded it as part of the social revolution of the '60s -- for it meant that there were no adults around who might challenge their values and behavior. Students were happy not to be treated as children and faculty, now in an intensely competitive job market that favored publication over teaching and advising, decided that their time would be much better spent researching and writing than being with students. The freedom granted students, however, has had its cost in patterns of arrested psychological, social and moral development. When Alexander Astin, the most important researcher of college life in America, decided to study how college life affects personality and self-concept, he was shocked to find that the most significant shift during the college years was a significant increase in the number of students experiencing a diminished sense of psychological well-being. He found that students tended to feel more depressed as seniors than they were as first-year students. They also felt "overwhelmed," or without the strength of self to deal with life's problems. The growth of self, he found, has not kept pace in college with the increasing complexity of life that college students experience. There are numerous interrelated factors hindering the maturational process during the college years, including the age isolation college students face. When a typical high school graduate goes to college, the student rarely has personal (rather than professional) contact with anyone older or younger. There are typically no children or young adolescents on campuses who can help remind one of what the earlier stages of life were like. There is also an increasing absence of adults on campus. Dorms tend to be run either by peers or young adults. Professors are becoming less available to students in general and almost completely unavailable for non-academic guidance and role-modeling. Hence, college students often find themselves in a developmental vacuum with no children to remind them of what they have been and no adults to act as models for what they might become. The absence of adults is especially detrimental for, as Harvard psychiatrist George Vaillant has persuasively shown, the most significant vehicle for post-childhood development is a mentoring relationship between a young person and an admired adult. Age isolation also tends to reinforce the powerful hold of youth culture on college students. This culture rejects the traditional view that sees youth as a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood, claiming instead that youth should be sustained for as long as possible and adulthood should be avoided like the plague. For all of its exhilaration and excitement, however, youth culture can only produce a repetition of adolescent forms of thought and action with no impetus toward development into mature forms of personal and social life. Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship. Another part of social life where growth can take place is in campus discussions about vital issues. If these discussions teach students to tolerate differences of opinion, listen carefully to all sides of a complex issue and feel the intense emotions of the participants without becoming overwhelmed before reaching a reasoned, thoughtful conclusion, maturity can and will develop. Unfortunately, the rise of political correctness has led to the near extinction of campus discourse about important issues. Rather than open, many-sided discussions, discourse situations now involve students advocating politically correct positions and demanding allegiance to them. Students who disagree do not merely hold different opinions, they are viewed as personally attacking the speaker, breaking solidarity or revealing prejudice against a group. Students who voice dissent risk the possibility of being labeled a racist, sexist or simply naive. In the face of such threats, most remain silent or avoid such discussions altogether. But advocating, showing allegiance or being silent makes little difference to the process of development for, in all cases, complexity is not encountered and growth does not take place. The college environment also makes individuation difficult by making intimacy difficult. Intimacy -- a love relation in which two persons accept and affirm one another for who they are and not for the roles they are playing or facades they are masquerading -- is probably the greatest possible aid to personal development during the college years. It is hard to recognize self worth unless that worth is recognized by others. With intimacy, childish narcissistic tendencies must be curbed in order to fully take into account and appreciate another person. A young person will rarely endure this kind of vulnerability without being in a strongly committed relationship. Such commitments are frustrated by the college environment, mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship? For many, going to college means preparing for a career in one of the key professions. Anything that is likely to compromise that goal must be held at arm's length. Love is the greatest obstacle to such single-mindedness and that which is most likely to deviate students from their professional pursuits. Joe is accepted into the law program at Berkeley; Susan wishes to pursue a Ph.D. in physics at MIT. They cannot allow themselves to fall too much in love or the dream of one will have to give way to the dream of the other. These psychological problems, the loss of traditional support systems college students leave at home and the frequent loss of a narrative direction during the college years make it difficult for graduates at commencement to feel as though they have the strength and vitality of self to face the most complex and difficult form of adult life ever invented. While I believe CC does much better with these problems than most schools, it could still do more, especially with its anemic system of advising. It's like Lord of the Flies ![]() | ||
semantics
10040 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
i find it surprising that he advocates the idea that college is the reason for limiting growth when really the entire education system holds you hand for much of your life and implements the nearly the exact same structure and social norms, what do you expect? put a man in prison for some twenty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world, the example is extreme but it's something to think about. i can also recall many times throughout my educational career in which a teacher would say "X schooling will prepare you for Y". perhaps i was naive, but i took that to heart only to find disappointment. you should not depend on any one institution to prepare you for the so-called real world. you should not wholly depend on any institution for anything, though they do provide opportunities, as growth stems from within. always has, always will. | ||
ForSC2
United States580 Posts
On December 03 2009 08:07 mahnini wrote: somewhere a long the line college went from a supplementary tool for educational growth to a mandatory stepping stone in order to stay relevant in the job market. i'm not complaining, it's only natural. however, i think this is where much of the problem stems from. i find it surprising that he advocates the idea that college is the reason for limiting growth when really the entire education system holds you hand for much of your life and implements the nearly the exact same structure and social norms, what do you expect? put a man in prison for some twenty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world, the example is extreme but it's something to think about. I thought it was the opposite. Let a man taste freedom for twenty years, then put a man in prison for some fifty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world. XD Hi Mahnini! | ||
liosama
Australia843 Posts
On December 03 2009 05:47 Shizuru~ wrote: Which is exactly why communism/socialism appeals to so many people... people just can't be bothered to be responsible for themselves, and need a big brother to pamper to their every needs.... see below... for reference. Interesting observation, but flawed interpretation i must say... i don think this problem isn't only exclusive to college students, but to the general populace at large imo, the root of this problems doesn't stems from higher education institutions(though it does promote such occurance), but from a lack of personal motivation/discipline/responsibilities or whatever u wanna call it. In short, these people are pretty much like the dude in the big lebowski, no goals or aspirations in life, jus wanna take it all easy... Wow wow you cant just throw socialism and communism on the same boat saying people cant be bothered being responsible for themselves? That is absurd. Socialism can eptomise the notion of working toward a common goal, anarchism exemplifies that. | ||
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Having talked in depth with CC students about their college experiences and read about student life at other colleges and universities, I find that institutions of higher education usually provide excellent environments for cognitive development, yet have trouble providing students with an adequate environment for social, moral or psychological growth. Stopped right there. Most college students show no signs of being an intelligent lifeform. While it's true that there is a lot of opportunity to learn at any university, saying that colleges provide an "excellent environment for cognitive development" is far fetched. Perhaps he meant "graduate school" instead of college? :/ | ||
meaculpa
United States119 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
it's your life, live it however you wanna ![]() | ||
[ZiNC]Ling
United States69 Posts
On December 03 2009 06:03 Amber[LighT] wrote: If you believe you cannot work and do school work at the same time you are justifying your lazy behavior, and you probably aren't as smart as you think you are. (I'm not referring to you, this is general) Maybe you're thinking of students who are attending "easy" schools or don't take enough classes. I find that schoolwork takes a lot more time and effort than any of the full-time jobs I have worked during summers. For reference, most students at my school take at least 5 classes worth 3 credit hours each (approximately 3 hours in class + 6 hours out of class per week, but in reality they tend to be more than 6 hours homework). That's about 45 hours/week, where I believe a full time job is 40. I and several of my friends have mini-jobs grading for our professors, but that only takes 3-5 hours a week. We mostly work over the summer, but it really doesn't get us enough money to afford college. If you are paying for your tuition, room, meals, etc. I think you are attending a very cheap school or you have massive scholarships. The total cost per year to attend my college is around $50,000. It's pretty foolish of you to suggest that I'm being "babied" because I can't make $50,000 per year while I am a full time student. Some adults with steady jobs can't make $50,000 per year either. On December 03 2009 05:16 D10 wrote: Whats wrong with getting money from your dad ? Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it. I don't think there's anything wrong with accepting money from your parents to pay for your education. Personally, my parents have been saving up to send me to college since before I was born. I think it would be pretty stupid of me to refuse their money or seek out a cheap school instead of the best education I can get. Unfortunately for us (students), good professors and challenging classes cost a lot of money. If I only had my own personal savings and income to buy a college education, I would probably have nothing better than what I can gain from reading textbooks. And, for the OP/article: Prof John Riker wrote: + Show Spoiler [In Loco Parentis] + Ever since the 1970s when colleges relinquished the notion that they should act like parents (the doctrine of in loco parentis), they have let students construct their own social and personal lives with few restrictions and little guidance. Students, of course, welcomed this change -- even demanded it as part of the social revolution of the '60s -- for it meant that there were no adults around who might challenge their values and behavior. Students were happy not to be treated as children and faculty, now in an intensely competitive job market that favored publication over teaching and advising, decided that their time would be much better spent researching and writing than being with students. I think colleges acting "in the place of parents" is just stupid. Just because I don't live in my parents' house year round doesn't mean they are not my parents anymore. If I need advice on my personal life or career plans, I call my mom. I don't expect my professors to be surrogate parents, I want them to treat me as an adult. Effectively this paragraph seems to be saying that lack of parental involvement is hindering college students in our personal growth. It seems pretty obvious to me that I'm at the stage of personal growth where I'm ready for my parents to be a phone call away, not right in my face. Prof John Riker wrote: + Show Spoiler [Social Interaction] + Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship. I don't see any students here who drink constantly and/or can't interact with other human beings while sober. We're perfectly capable of social development while working together or at the dining hall. I presume it's different at a "party" school, where there is pressure to drink or do other drugs. Prof John Riker wrote: + Show Spoiler [Discussing Issues] + Another part of social life where growth can take place is in campus discussions about vital issues. If these discussions teach students to tolerate differences of opinion, listen carefully to all sides of a complex issue and feel the intense emotions of the participants without becoming overwhelmed before reaching a reasoned, thoughtful conclusion, maturity can and will develop. Unfortunately, the rise of political correctness has led to the near extinction of campus discourse about important issues. Rather than open, many-sided discussions, discourse situations now involve students advocating politically correct positions and demanding allegiance to them. Students who disagree do not merely hold different opinions, they are viewed as personally attacking the speaker, breaking solidarity or revealing prejudice against a group. Students who voice dissent risk the possibility of being labeled a racist, sexist or simply naive. In the face of such threats, most remain silent or avoid such discussions altogether. But advocating, showing allegiance or being silent makes little difference to the process of development for, in all cases, complexity is not encountered and growth does not take place. I've heard of this problem at other schools but I have never seen it on my own campus. There is active discussion of every issue that comes up, and students love to question the views that are common or politically correct. On the whole we love to debate, although admittedly there are some people blind to every view but their own. Prof John Riker wrote: + Show Spoiler [Intimacy] + The college environment also makes individuation difficult by making intimacy difficult. Intimacy -- a love relation in which two persons accept and affirm one another for who they are and not for the roles they are playing or facades they are masquerading -- is probably the greatest possible aid to personal development during the college years. It is hard to recognize self worth unless that worth is recognized by others. With intimacy, childish narcissistic tendencies must be curbed in order to fully take into account and appreciate another person. A young person will rarely endure this kind of vulnerability without being in a strongly committed relationship. Such commitments are frustrated by the college environment, mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship? In my opinion the college environment makes intimacy especially easy. Because I live on campus, I can spend basically unlimited amounts of my life with my S.O.: we can work, eat, and sleep together if we want to. College is (usually) four years long, which is plenty of time to build a serious committed relationship. If two students have a great relationship and want to continue it after college, then it is not extremely hard for them to get jobs in the same town or enroll in graduate programs at the same university. TL;DR: Students who treat their college education as one giant drunken party aren't prepared for the working world. This should really be obvious. Students who take responsibility for themselves in college (including myself I hope) will be adequately prepared. | ||
Trang
Australia324 Posts
On December 03 2009 05:21 CharlieMurphy wrote: There are exceptions, but reports like this show that this isn't just a stereotype right? I'm assuming that you are one of these people (since you seem pretty defensive about it), Why don't you try getting a part time job even if you don't 'need' it. Think of it like an experiment and/or part of your college study to gain life experience. If they never pushed the birdies out of the nest how would they learn to fly? So after being criticised for being 'babied' while at university, then I suppose I have the right later on in life to criticise you for avoiding responsibility in life by not providing financially for your parents? Independence in the way you speak of (financial detachment from your family) might mean taking on more responsibility now, but it also means taking on less later. | ||
Saturnize
United States2473 Posts
On December 03 2009 09:54 JeeJee wrote: wall of bullshit. it's your life, live it however you wanna ![]() Way to add to the discussion >.> | ||
ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On December 03 2009 09:36 meaculpa wrote: Who's a philosophy professor to tell the rest of the world to "go get a job"? While most people have to get a job shortly after they get their BA/BS, he enjoyed another 3-8 year extension of his college life known as "grad school". Anyway, why should a job and marriage be the top aspirations of my life? The new generation must take on job to keep society running, but nobody will ever bullshit me into enjoying staying awake for 15 hours, fixing a bug carelessly made 5 years ago in some boring program maybe 1000 people in the world care about. I'd do it because I get paid and that's it. And marriage? I think misgivings about marriage would be very understandable given that 50% of marriages fail, quickly. Maybe it's time to reconsider it? Agree. Philosophy is up there with psychology and theology for the sections with the easiest and most bullshit courses. | ||
semantics
10040 Posts
On December 03 2009 07:40 StorkHwaiting wrote: You argument seems to completely ignore that sector of our economy known as waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc. They drink and party 24/7 and pay for all of it themselves. And they don't go to college. Most all the people I know who don't go to college either end up working as a waiter, bartender, drug-dealer, or jail-bed warmer. They don't go to college or anywhere, I said pick up a trade which does require training where you get it depends on the trade. I didn't say skip all forms of education and you'll be fine i said there are alternatives to making a decent wage that don't require a 4 year degree. | ||
Au
Japan19 Posts
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