Having talked in depth with CC students about their college experiences and read about student life at other colleges and universities, I find that institutions of higher education usually provide excellent environments for cognitive development, yet have trouble providing students with an adequate environment for social, moral or psychological growth. The result is that many students, feeling that they do not have the maturity of self or depth of personal skills to confront the difficult problems of adulthood, show a reluctance to enter the world beyond college. They are afraid of marriage and other adult forms of intimacy, and tremble at having to enter professional life. They invent wonderful stories for themselves and their parents about needing time off or wanting to travel after college, but often behind these marvelous plans lies a terrible fear: that they simply are not ready for the adult world. They are not ready because something did not happen during the college years that should have -- they did not grow up.
Ever since the 1970s when colleges relinquished the notion that they should act like parents (the doctrine of in loco parentis), they have let students construct their own social and personal lives with few restrictions and little guidance. Students, of course, welcomed this change -- even demanded it as part of the social revolution of the '60s -- for it meant that there were no adults around who might challenge their values and behavior. Students were happy not to be treated as children and faculty, now in an intensely competitive job market that favored publication over teaching and advising, decided that their time would be much better spent researching and writing than being with students.
The freedom granted students, however, has had its cost in patterns of arrested psychological, social and moral development. When Alexander Astin, the most important researcher of college life in America, decided to study how college life affects personality and self-concept, he was shocked to find that the most significant shift during the college years was a significant increase in the number of students experiencing a diminished sense of psychological well-being. He found that students tended to feel more depressed as seniors than they were as first-year students. They also felt "overwhelmed," or without the strength of self to deal with life's problems. The growth of self, he found, has not kept pace in college with the increasing complexity of life that college students experience.
There are numerous interrelated factors hindering the maturational process during the college years, including the age isolation college students face. When a typical high school graduate goes to college, the student rarely has personal (rather than professional) contact with anyone older or younger. There are typically no children or young adolescents on campuses who can help remind one of what the earlier stages of life were like. There is also an increasing absence of adults on campus. Dorms tend to be run either by peers or young adults. Professors are becoming less available to students in general and almost completely unavailable for non-academic guidance and role-modeling. Hence, college students often find themselves in a developmental vacuum with no children to remind them of what they have been and no adults to act as models for what they might become. The absence of adults is especially detrimental for, as Harvard psychiatrist George Vaillant has persuasively shown, the most significant vehicle for post-childhood development is a mentoring relationship between a young person and an admired adult.
Age isolation also tends to reinforce the powerful hold of youth culture on college students. This culture rejects the traditional view that sees youth as a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood, claiming instead that youth should be sustained for as long as possible and adulthood should be avoided like the plague. For all of its exhilaration and excitement, however, youth culture can only produce a repetition of adolescent forms of thought and action with no impetus toward development into mature forms of personal and social life.
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
Another part of social life where growth can take place is in campus discussions about vital issues. If these discussions teach students to tolerate differences of opinion, listen carefully to all sides of a complex issue and feel the intense emotions of the participants without becoming overwhelmed before reaching a reasoned, thoughtful conclusion, maturity can and will develop. Unfortunately, the rise of political correctness has led to the near extinction of campus discourse about important issues. Rather than open, many-sided discussions, discourse situations now involve students advocating politically correct positions and demanding allegiance to them. Students who disagree do not merely hold different opinions, they are viewed as personally attacking the speaker, breaking solidarity or revealing prejudice against a group. Students who voice dissent risk the possibility of being labeled a racist, sexist or simply naive. In the face of such threats, most remain silent or avoid such discussions altogether. But advocating, showing allegiance or being silent makes little difference to the process of development for, in all cases, complexity is not encountered and growth does not take place.
The college environment also makes individuation difficult by making intimacy difficult. Intimacy -- a love relation in which two persons accept and affirm one another for who they are and not for the roles they are playing or facades they are masquerading -- is probably the greatest possible aid to personal development during the college years. It is hard to recognize self worth unless that worth is recognized by others.
With intimacy, childish narcissistic tendencies must be curbed in order to fully take into account and appreciate another person. A young person will rarely endure this kind of vulnerability without being in a strongly committed relationship. Such commitments are frustrated by the college environment, mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship?
For many, going to college means preparing for a career in one of the key professions. Anything that is likely to compromise that goal must be held at arm's length. Love is the greatest obstacle to such single-mindedness and that which is most likely to deviate students from their professional pursuits. Joe is accepted into the law program at Berkeley; Susan wishes to pursue a Ph.D. in physics at MIT. They cannot allow themselves to fall too much in love or the dream of one will have to give way to the dream of the other.
These psychological problems, the loss of traditional support systems college students leave at home and the frequent loss of a narrative direction during the college years make it difficult for graduates at commencement to feel as though they have the strength and vitality of self to face the most complex and difficult form of adult life ever invented. While I believe CC does much better with these problems than most schools, it could still do more, especially with its anemic system of advising.
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
wait what? Most people who do drugs and drink at parties are pretty social and have lots of acquaintances and friends all over the place. Just think of this, if you are out of smokes and money and addicted, it forces you to go out and talk to people. Often times you make friends this way alone, this is one of the only pros to smoking cigarettes.
thats funny was thinking about how campuses are not a good idea, since you are basically away from civilazation on a daily basis, no interaction with the "real world" during those crucial years.
Excellent article. I agree that the lack of role models and informal mentoring relationships is a big deal. The age segregation bit applies to all levels of school but it doesn't stop being true for college either.
It seems to me that there are a lot of aspects of "adult culture" that contribute to the difficulty of the transition to post-college life, but that's probably outside the scope of this essay. Everything he brings up are legitimate issues that deserve some thought.
i will agree about trembling to enter the real world.
Im a Mechanical Engineering major.
I have a year left and I feel like ive learned nothing to prepare me for any type of job after college. I havent taken an internship yet but even that from what im told by most friends who have isnt much of a learning experience. The economy is tanking and Mechanical Engineering seems like a pretty brutal business at the moment. There are few jobs and loads of assholes out there. I dont have a skill I guess thats my biggest problem with college. Some would say go to a trade school or something.....but youd think id at least have some sort of skill or picture of what im going after school is over with but I dont and I dont think most people do in my major. They may lie and pretend but talking to them and asking questions they dont know their shit either.
I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
On December 03 2009 05:05 meeple wrote: I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
the things he says have merit and i'm sure most of us have experienced one or all of them. but he offers no solutions. what could possibly be done to address any of this? how are you going to teach that strict adherence to political correctness is stupid, that people shouldn't rely on alcohol so heavily, etc etc? these are things that... i don't know, just seems that there is no proper way to address this.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Whats wrong with getting money from your dad ?
Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it.
There are exceptions, but reports like this show that this isn't just a stereotype right?
I'm assuming that you are one of these people (since you seem pretty defensive about it), Why don't you try getting a part time job even if you don't 'need' it. Think of it like an experiment and/or part of your college study to gain life experience.
If they never pushed the birdies out of the nest how would they learn to fly?
On December 03 2009 05:05 meeple wrote: I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
Characteristics of quarter-life crisis may include[citation needed]:
Realizing the pursuits of ones peers are useless Confronting their own mortality Watching time slowly take its toll on their parents, only to realize they are next insecurity regarding the fact that their actions are meaningless insecurity concerning ability to love themselves, let alone another person insecurity regarding present accomplishments re-evaluation of close interpersonal relationships lack of friendships or romantic relationships, sexual frustration, and involuntary celibacy disappointment with one's job nostalgia for university, college, high school or elementary school life tendency to hold stronger opinions boredom with social interactions loss of closeness to high school and college friends financially-rooted stress (overwhelming college loans, unanticipatedly high cost of living, etc.) loneliness, depression and suicide desire to have children a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you frustration with social ills
I'm not sure that's what I was really talking about there
On December 03 2009 05:05 meeple wrote: I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
Characteristics of quarter-life crisis may include[citation needed]:
Realizing the pursuits of ones peers are useless Confronting their own mortality Watching time slowly take its toll on their parents, only to realize they are next insecurity regarding the fact that their actions are meaningless insecurity concerning ability to love themselves, let alone another person insecurity regarding present accomplishments re-evaluation of close interpersonal relationships lack of friendships or romantic relationships, sexual frustration, and involuntary celibacy disappointment with one's job nostalgia for university, college, high school or elementary school life tendency to hold stronger opinions boredom with social interactions loss of closeness to high school and college friends financially-rooted stress (overwhelming college loans, unanticipatedly high cost of living, etc.) loneliness, depression and suicide desire to have children a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you frustration with social skills
I'm not sure that's what I was really talking about there
Huh, I have no problem with marriage or intimacy but getting a professional job does scare the shit out of me. I just don't feel prepared and feel like I'm going to end up getting fired after a week or so because I suck so much or something. This fear has kept me working crap jobs the past few years of my life and its really hard to overcome because I just naturally have a really strong fear of failure.
On December 03 2009 05:20 intrigue wrote: the things he says have merit and i'm sure most of us have experienced one or all of them. but he offers no solutions. what could possibly be done to address any of this? how are you going to teach that strict adherence to political correctness is stupid, that people shouldn't rely on alcohol so heavily, etc etc? these are things that... i don't know, just seems that there is no proper way to address this.
He seems to be saying that perhaps we've gone too far away from the old time model of teachers being guides outside of the classroom as well as in. The revolution of giving students pure unstructured social freedom does have its upsides, but perhaps it has gone too far and now there is a vacuum of structure and guidance outside of the classroom. Students have only their peers as role models I think is what he's saying.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Some can't afford to work though =/ Depending on what they're studying and their capacity to balance work and studying, it can be impossible. Of course I'm writing this, while I'm at work too... -_-
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
wait what? Most people who do drugs and drink at parties are pretty social and have lots of acquaintances and friends all over the place. Just think of this, if you are out of smokes and money and addicted, it forces you to go out and talk to people. Often times you make friends this way alone, this is one of the only pros to smoking cigarettes.
I think the article meant you can't be loaded 24/7 and thus don't develop the social skills that apply under sober conditions.
On December 03 2009 05:27 Haemonculus wrote: Being an adult to me pretty much means that I have to pay bills and file my own taxes and stuff while having ice cream for dinner.
I tried to "like" this as you would on Facebook XD
The author of the article overgeneralizes what being an adult is and what college students are like. Being adult isn't necessarily about having a professional job, or having that intimate relationship. It's about taking responsibilities for your own actions. The problem with maturity in the modern youth starts before college. Most parents don't want to do any parenting and just stick their kids in front of the TV. The little bits of parenting they do do entails telling their kids to study hard and go to a good college. Under these situations, what how can we expect our kids to be mature? Their lives are basically decided by their parents, and by their lack of life experiences sitting in front of the TV all day. No real life experience means no opportunities to make choices and take responsibilities for your actions. I'd argue that college actually is better for the youth because it provides them an opportunity where they effectively take responsibilities for all their actions. Some prosper in this environment, others flounder. Either way, it's something all people to need to go through in their lives; better to do it in college than to do it when you're 45.
Which is exactly why communism/socialism appeals to so many people... people just can't be bothered to be responsible for themselves, and need a big brother to pamper to their every needs....
see below...
Whats wrong with getting money from your dad ?
Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it.
for reference.
Interesting observation, but flawed interpretation i must say... i don think this problem isn't only exclusive to college students, but to the general populace at large imo, the root of this problems doesn't stems from higher education institutions(though it does promote such occurance), but from a lack of personal motivation/discipline/responsibilities or whatever u wanna call it. In short, these people are pretty much like the dude in the big lebowski, no goals or aspirations in life, jus wanna take it all easy...
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
wait what? Most people who do drugs and drink at parties are pretty social and have lots of acquaintances and friends all over the place. Just think of this, if you are out of smokes and money and addicted, it forces you to go out and talk to people. Often times you make friends this way alone, this is one of the only pros to smoking cigarettes.
Think of it this way: You know when you wake up after a party and everyone is hungover and tired and kind of awkward? Then you all hang out later and just do jack shit until the alcohol arrives then you begin to have fun? That is not a social situation, it's unhealthy social fun. I know many people that can't have a good time without drugs or alcohol, and if they try it ends up being "boring" because they are so used to drinking with their "friends". This is not always the case obviously but it happens alot, mainly in dorms.
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
wait what? Most people who do drugs and drink at parties are pretty social and have lots of acquaintances and friends all over the place. Just think of this, if you are out of smokes and money and addicted, it forces you to go out and talk to people. Often times you make friends this way alone, this is one of the only pros to smoking cigarettes.
Think long and hard about it though, most of those people you wouldn't hang out with UNLESS they had said substance you were looking for. Same was true for me and pot. I had a lot of friends yes, but if they stopped smoking or since i stopped smoking, we don't really have a lot in common...
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Some can't afford to work though =/ Depending on what they're studying and their capacity to balance work and studying, it can be impossible. Of course I'm writing this, while I'm at work too... -_-
If you believe you cannot work and do school work at the same time you are justifying your lazy behavior, and you probably aren't as smart as you think you are. (I'm not referring to you, this is general)
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Some can't afford to work though =/ Depending on what they're studying and their capacity to balance work and studying, it can be impossible. Of course I'm writing this, while I'm at work too... -_-
If you believe you cannot work and do school work at the same time you are justifying your lazy behavior, and you probably aren't as smart as you think you are. (I'm not referring to you, this is general)
On December 03 2009 05:05 meeple wrote: I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
Characteristics of quarter-life crisis may include[citation needed]:
Realizing the pursuits of ones peers are useless Confronting their own mortality Watching time slowly take its toll on their parents, only to realize they are next insecurity regarding the fact that their actions are meaningless insecurity concerning ability to love themselves, let alone another person insecurity regarding present accomplishments re-evaluation of close interpersonal relationships lack of friendships or romantic relationships, sexual frustration, and involuntary celibacy disappointment with one's job nostalgia for university, college, high school or elementary school life tendency to hold stronger opinions boredom with social interactions loss of closeness to high school and college friends financially-rooted stress (overwhelming college loans, unanticipatedly high cost of living, etc.) loneliness, depression and suicide desire to have children a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you frustration with social skills
I'm not sure that's what I was really talking about there
I bolded the applicable ones
I still don't understand... how does wanting to travel mean you're insecure and lonely?
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
ding ding ding! you win! Frankly people who push college as a way of making yourself have a happy life is bullshit now of days many people can go into a trade(such as a mechanic or carpenter) and achieve financial stability and independence much quicker with a whole lot less trouble. Only diff is how you see your job in relation to your social status, frankly to me hell it's the money for the time that i need to work that counts who the hell cares if i get dirty.
I bet a whole lot less students would stop drinking and parting all the time if they had to pay for their own shit 100%. Hell most of my friends that don't drink (they are in colleges in Cali) are those who have to pay for everything them selves.
College is great for 2 things 1 parting and getting shitfaced 24/7 2 just learning nice little things that may or may not help you in your jobs to come.
And what do you have to pay when you're parents are paying all the fees? Just need to not fail out of college basically the system is the parents pay for their kids to party in hopes that they wont have to have troubles getting jobs etc. But everyone I knew that wasn't already interning at places had a fuck time hard getting a job after college hell i know 4 people that went back for their doctorates just to avoid looking for a job.
What ever happened to the pre 1970's America where a grocer could retire conformable instead of having to take 3 jobs just to stay afloat.
On December 03 2009 04:37 Sadist wrote: i will agree about trembling to enter the real world.
Im a Mechanical Engineering major.
I have a year left and I feel like ive learned nothing to prepare me for any type of job after college. I havent taken an internship yet but even that from what im told by most friends who have isnt much of a learning experience. The economy is tanking and Mechanical Engineering seems like a pretty brutal business at the moment. There are few jobs and loads of assholes out there. I dont have a skill I guess thats my biggest problem with college. Some would say go to a trade school or something.....but youd think id at least have some sort of skill or picture of what im going after school is over with but I dont and I dont think most people do in my major. They may lie and pretend but talking to them and asking questions they dont know their shit either.
I was more or less in your same shoes, but I think I was much more optimistic. You know a hell of a lot more about a lot of different things than most people. For instance, when I was getting out of college, I knew how to use C, Java, and Matlab and knew a dozen different root-finding methods. I know how to formulate a problem and do a materials selection for a product. I've planned and modeled objects in 3d using AutoCAD and Inventor. I could solve a variety of different differential equations, knew the LaPlace Transform, and Cauchy's Integral theorem and how they could be applied in the real world.
Engineering is like the best field of study ever, because you know by the end that you're a bundle of esoteric knowledge ready to be incorporated into a company to solve very specific problems. The fact that you are on TL tells me that you also probably have an interest in optimization as a "gamer," and are handy enough with a computer that you probably also are knowledgeable about programming. You'd all be amazed how little there is to learn to do any one specific job, and how much more important it is to have a wide body of knowledge so you can be innovative and creative.
On December 03 2009 05:05 meeple wrote: I always thought it was a good thing to travel after college. It allows you to see more of the world and get a balanced view of things. Going straight into the workplace is asking for a mid-life crisis, once you realize you haven't really experienced anything.
Characteristics of quarter-life crisis may include[citation needed]:
Realizing the pursuits of ones peers are useless Confronting their own mortality Watching time slowly take its toll on their parents, only to realize they are next insecurity regarding the fact that their actions are meaningless insecurity concerning ability to love themselves, let alone another person insecurity regarding present accomplishments re-evaluation of close interpersonal relationships lack of friendships or romantic relationships, sexual frustration, and involuntary celibacy disappointment with one's job nostalgia for university, college, high school or elementary school life tendency to hold stronger opinions boredom with social interactions loss of closeness to high school and college friends financially-rooted stress (overwhelming college loans, unanticipatedly high cost of living, etc.) loneliness, depression and suicide desire to have children a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you frustration with social skills
I'm not sure that's what I was really talking about there
I bolded the applicable ones
I still don't understand... how does wanting to travel mean you're insecure and lonely?
In the context of the OP it depends entirely on your motivation for doing it.
If you want to travel after graduation because it was really important to you to see the place where your mom and dad grew up. Or if you were so interested in Starcraft Progaming that you wanted to go to Korea to experience it. Those would be perfectly good reasons to travel. And assuming you had the money to do so, the time that you had after graduating from school would probably be the best time in your life to fulfill that wish.
Contrast this to if you never spent any time figuring out what you were going to do in school, graduate, then find out you still have no idea what you're going to do. After that on a whim you decide to travel hoping for an epiphany, while making up excuses to your parents about wanting to see the world when you know in your heart that you are just running away from your problems hoping they'll disappear like a child that is unwilling to grow up and take responsibility
One of these show maturity, one of these show immaturity. Traveling is moving from one place to another, in doing so you can either be moving toward a goal or running away from one.
Knowing my friend traveled to Europe after school is not as important as knowing why my friend decided to travel if she is my friend.
i dont agree. i think the majority of students who act this way are the ones who will drop out or change majors, most students i've met here work part-time or "worked" in high school to get decent scholarships also the part about alcohol and weed making you worse at being social is funny
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
ding ding ding! you win! Frankly people who push college as a way of making yourself have a happy life is bullshit now of days many people can go into a trade(such as a mechanic or carpenter) and achieve financial stability and independence much quicker with a whole lot less trouble. Only diff is how you see your job in relation to your social status, frankly to me hell it's the money for the time that i need to work that counts who the hell cares if i get dirty.
I bet a whole lot less students would stop drinking and parting all the time if they had to pay for their own shit 100%. Hell most of my friends that don't drink (they are in colleges in Cali) are those who have to pay for everything them selves.
College is great for 2 things 1 parting and getting shitfaced 24/7 2 just learning nice little things that may or may not help you in your jobs to come.
And what do you have to pay when you're parents are paying all the fees? Just need to not fail out of college basically the system is the parents pay for their kids to party in hopes that they wont have to have troubles getting jobs etc. But everyone I knew that wasn't already interning at places had a fuck time hard getting a job after college hell i know 4 people that went back for their doctorates just to avoid looking for a job.
What ever happened to the pre 1970's America where a grocer could retire conformable instead of having to take 3 jobs just to stay afloat.
You argument seems to completely ignore that sector of our economy known as waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc. They drink and party 24/7 and pay for all of it themselves. And they don't go to college. Most all the people I know who don't go to college either end up working as a waiter, bartender, drug-dealer, or jail-bed warmer.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Or maybe they have too much homework. People I knew with part time jobs usually didn't have enough time to complete all their school work or study for exams, or they went to school part time.
Having talked in depth with CC students about their college experiences and read about student life at other colleges and universities, I find that institutions of higher education usually provide excellent environments for cognitive development, yet have trouble providing students with an adequate environment for social, moral or psychological growth. The result is that many students, feeling that they do not have the maturity of self or depth of personal skills to confront the difficult problems of adulthood, show a reluctance to enter the world beyond college. They are afraid of marriage and other adult forms of intimacy, and tremble at having to enter professional life. They invent wonderful stories for themselves and their parents about needing time off or wanting to travel after college, but often behind these marvelous plans lies a terrible fear: that they simply are not ready for the adult world. They are not ready because something did not happen during the college years that should have -- they did not grow up.
Ever since the 1970s when colleges relinquished the notion that they should act like parents (the doctrine of in loco parentis), they have let students construct their own social and personal lives with few restrictions and little guidance. Students, of course, welcomed this change -- even demanded it as part of the social revolution of the '60s -- for it meant that there were no adults around who might challenge their values and behavior. Students were happy not to be treated as children and faculty, now in an intensely competitive job market that favored publication over teaching and advising, decided that their time would be much better spent researching and writing than being with students.
The freedom granted students, however, has had its cost in patterns of arrested psychological, social and moral development. When Alexander Astin, the most important researcher of college life in America, decided to study how college life affects personality and self-concept, he was shocked to find that the most significant shift during the college years was a significant increase in the number of students experiencing a diminished sense of psychological well-being. He found that students tended to feel more depressed as seniors than they were as first-year students. They also felt "overwhelmed," or without the strength of self to deal with life's problems. The growth of self, he found, has not kept pace in college with the increasing complexity of life that college students experience.
There are numerous interrelated factors hindering the maturational process during the college years, including the age isolation college students face. When a typical high school graduate goes to college, the student rarely has personal (rather than professional) contact with anyone older or younger. There are typically no children or young adolescents on campuses who can help remind one of what the earlier stages of life were like. There is also an increasing absence of adults on campus. Dorms tend to be run either by peers or young adults. Professors are becoming less available to students in general and almost completely unavailable for non-academic guidance and role-modeling. Hence, college students often find themselves in a developmental vacuum with no children to remind them of what they have been and no adults to act as models for what they might become. The absence of adults is especially detrimental for, as Harvard psychiatrist George Vaillant has persuasively shown, the most significant vehicle for post-childhood development is a mentoring relationship between a young person and an admired adult.
Age isolation also tends to reinforce the powerful hold of youth culture on college students. This culture rejects the traditional view that sees youth as a transitional stage between childhood and adulthood, claiming instead that youth should be sustained for as long as possible and adulthood should be avoided like the plague. For all of its exhilaration and excitement, however, youth culture can only produce a repetition of adolescent forms of thought and action with no impetus toward development into mature forms of personal and social life.
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
Another part of social life where growth can take place is in campus discussions about vital issues. If these discussions teach students to tolerate differences of opinion, listen carefully to all sides of a complex issue and feel the intense emotions of the participants without becoming overwhelmed before reaching a reasoned, thoughtful conclusion, maturity can and will develop. Unfortunately, the rise of political correctness has led to the near extinction of campus discourse about important issues. Rather than open, many-sided discussions, discourse situations now involve students advocating politically correct positions and demanding allegiance to them. Students who disagree do not merely hold different opinions, they are viewed as personally attacking the speaker, breaking solidarity or revealing prejudice against a group. Students who voice dissent risk the possibility of being labeled a racist, sexist or simply naive. In the face of such threats, most remain silent or avoid such discussions altogether. But advocating, showing allegiance or being silent makes little difference to the process of development for, in all cases, complexity is not encountered and growth does not take place.
The college environment also makes individuation difficult by making intimacy difficult. Intimacy -- a love relation in which two persons accept and affirm one another for who they are and not for the roles they are playing or facades they are masquerading -- is probably the greatest possible aid to personal development during the college years. It is hard to recognize self worth unless that worth is recognized by others.
With intimacy, childish narcissistic tendencies must be curbed in order to fully take into account and appreciate another person. A young person will rarely endure this kind of vulnerability without being in a strongly committed relationship. Such commitments are frustrated by the college environment, mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship?
For many, going to college means preparing for a career in one of the key professions. Anything that is likely to compromise that goal must be held at arm's length. Love is the greatest obstacle to such single-mindedness and that which is most likely to deviate students from their professional pursuits. Joe is accepted into the law program at Berkeley; Susan wishes to pursue a Ph.D. in physics at MIT. They cannot allow themselves to fall too much in love or the dream of one will have to give way to the dream of the other.
These psychological problems, the loss of traditional support systems college students leave at home and the frequent loss of a narrative direction during the college years make it difficult for graduates at commencement to feel as though they have the strength and vitality of self to face the most complex and difficult form of adult life ever invented. While I believe CC does much better with these problems than most schools, it could still do more, especially with its anemic system of advising.
I know plenty of students have have not enough time to work but plenty of time to drink in their dorms and then hide in a closet when they get caught and let one person take the fall for it.
somewhere a long the line college went from a supplementary tool for educational growth to a mandatory stepping stone in order to stay relevant in the job market. i'm not complaining, it's only natural. however, i think this is where much of the problem stems from.
i find it surprising that he advocates the idea that college is the reason for limiting growth when really the entire education system holds you hand for much of your life and implements the nearly the exact same structure and social norms, what do you expect? put a man in prison for some twenty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world, the example is extreme but it's something to think about.
i can also recall many times throughout my educational career in which a teacher would say "X schooling will prepare you for Y". perhaps i was naive, but i took that to heart only to find disappointment. you should not depend on any one institution to prepare you for the so-called real world. you should not wholly depend on any institution for anything, though they do provide opportunities, as growth stems from within. always has, always will.
On December 03 2009 08:07 mahnini wrote: somewhere a long the line college went from a supplementary tool for educational growth to a mandatory stepping stone in order to stay relevant in the job market. i'm not complaining, it's only natural. however, i think this is where much of the problem stems from.
i find it surprising that he advocates the idea that college is the reason for limiting growth when really the entire education system holds you hand for much of your life and implements the nearly the exact same structure and social norms, what do you expect? put a man in prison for some twenty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world, the example is extreme but it's something to think about.
I thought it was the opposite. Let a man taste freedom for twenty years, then put a man in prison for some fifty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world. XD
On December 03 2009 05:47 Shizuru~ wrote: Which is exactly why communism/socialism appeals to so many people... people just can't be bothered to be responsible for themselves, and need a big brother to pamper to their every needs....
Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it.
for reference.
Interesting observation, but flawed interpretation i must say... i don think this problem isn't only exclusive to college students, but to the general populace at large imo, the root of this problems doesn't stems from higher education institutions(though it does promote such occurance), but from a lack of personal motivation/discipline/responsibilities or whatever u wanna call it. In short, these people are pretty much like the dude in the big lebowski, no goals or aspirations in life, jus wanna take it all easy...
Wow wow you cant just throw socialism and communism on the same boat saying people cant be bothered being responsible for themselves? That is absurd. Socialism can eptomise the notion of working toward a common goal, anarchism exemplifies that.
Having talked in depth with CC students about their college experiences and read about student life at other colleges and universities, I find that institutions of higher education usually provide excellent environments for cognitive development, yet have trouble providing students with an adequate environment for social, moral or psychological growth.
Stopped right there. Most college students show no signs of being an intelligent lifeform. While it's true that there is a lot of opportunity to learn at any university, saying that colleges provide an "excellent environment for cognitive development" is far fetched.
Perhaps he meant "graduate school" instead of college? :/
Who's a philosophy professor to tell the rest of the world to "go get a job"? While most people have to get a job shortly after they get their BA/BS, he enjoyed another 3-8 year extension of his college life known as "grad school". Anyway, why should a job and marriage be the top aspirations of my life? The new generation must take on job to keep society running, but nobody will ever bullshit me into enjoying staying awake for 15 hours, fixing a bug carelessly made 5 years ago in some boring program maybe 1000 people in the world care about. I'd do it because I get paid and that's it. And marriage? I think misgivings about marriage would be very understandable given that 50% of marriages fail, quickly. Maybe it's time to reconsider it?
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Some can't afford to work though =/ Depending on what they're studying and their capacity to balance work and studying, it can be impossible. Of course I'm writing this, while I'm at work too... -_-
If you believe you cannot work and do school work at the same time you are justifying your lazy behavior, and you probably aren't as smart as you think you are. (I'm not referring to you, this is general)
Maybe you're thinking of students who are attending "easy" schools or don't take enough classes. I find that schoolwork takes a lot more time and effort than any of the full-time jobs I have worked during summers. For reference, most students at my school take at least 5 classes worth 3 credit hours each (approximately 3 hours in class + 6 hours out of class per week, but in reality they tend to be more than 6 hours homework). That's about 45 hours/week, where I believe a full time job is 40.
I and several of my friends have mini-jobs grading for our professors, but that only takes 3-5 hours a week. We mostly work over the summer, but it really doesn't get us enough money to afford college. If you are paying for your tuition, room, meals, etc. I think you are attending a very cheap school or you have massive scholarships. The total cost per year to attend my college is around $50,000. It's pretty foolish of you to suggest that I'm being "babied" because I can't make $50,000 per year while I am a full time student. Some adults with steady jobs can't make $50,000 per year either.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Whats wrong with getting money from your dad ?
Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with accepting money from your parents to pay for your education. Personally, my parents have been saving up to send me to college since before I was born. I think it would be pretty stupid of me to refuse their money or seek out a cheap school instead of the best education I can get. Unfortunately for us (students), good professors and challenging classes cost a lot of money. If I only had my own personal savings and income to buy a college education, I would probably have nothing better than what I can gain from reading textbooks.
Ever since the 1970s when colleges relinquished the notion that they should act like parents (the doctrine of in loco parentis), they have let students construct their own social and personal lives with few restrictions and little guidance. Students, of course, welcomed this change -- even demanded it as part of the social revolution of the '60s -- for it meant that there were no adults around who might challenge their values and behavior. Students were happy not to be treated as children and faculty, now in an intensely competitive job market that favored publication over teaching and advising, decided that their time would be much better spent researching and writing than being with students.
I think colleges acting "in the place of parents" is just stupid. Just because I don't live in my parents' house year round doesn't mean they are not my parents anymore. If I need advice on my personal life or career plans, I call my mom. I don't expect my professors to be surrogate parents, I want them to treat me as an adult. Effectively this paragraph seems to be saying that lack of parental involvement is hindering college students in our personal growth. It seems pretty obvious to me that I'm at the stage of personal growth where I'm ready for my parents to be a phone call away, not right in my face.
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
I don't see any students here who drink constantly and/or can't interact with other human beings while sober. We're perfectly capable of social development while working together or at the dining hall. I presume it's different at a "party" school, where there is pressure to drink or do other drugs.
Another part of social life where growth can take place is in campus discussions about vital issues. If these discussions teach students to tolerate differences of opinion, listen carefully to all sides of a complex issue and feel the intense emotions of the participants without becoming overwhelmed before reaching a reasoned, thoughtful conclusion, maturity can and will develop. Unfortunately, the rise of political correctness has led to the near extinction of campus discourse about important issues. Rather than open, many-sided discussions, discourse situations now involve students advocating politically correct positions and demanding allegiance to them. Students who disagree do not merely hold different opinions, they are viewed as personally attacking the speaker, breaking solidarity or revealing prejudice against a group. Students who voice dissent risk the possibility of being labeled a racist, sexist or simply naive. In the face of such threats, most remain silent or avoid such discussions altogether. But advocating, showing allegiance or being silent makes little difference to the process of development for, in all cases, complexity is not encountered and growth does not take place.
I've heard of this problem at other schools but I have never seen it on my own campus. There is active discussion of every issue that comes up, and students love to question the views that are common or politically correct. On the whole we love to debate, although admittedly there are some people blind to every view but their own.
The college environment also makes individuation difficult by making intimacy difficult. Intimacy -- a love relation in which two persons accept and affirm one another for who they are and not for the roles they are playing or facades they are masquerading -- is probably the greatest possible aid to personal development during the college years. It is hard to recognize self worth unless that worth is recognized by others.
With intimacy, childish narcissistic tendencies must be curbed in order to fully take into account and appreciate another person. A young person will rarely endure this kind of vulnerability without being in a strongly committed relationship. Such commitments are frustrated by the college environment, mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship?
In my opinion the college environment makes intimacy especially easy. Because I live on campus, I can spend basically unlimited amounts of my life with my S.O.: we can work, eat, and sleep together if we want to. College is (usually) four years long, which is plenty of time to build a serious committed relationship. If two students have a great relationship and want to continue it after college, then it is not extremely hard for them to get jobs in the same town or enroll in graduate programs at the same university.
TL;DR: Students who treat their college education as one giant drunken party aren't prepared for the working world. This should really be obvious. Students who take responsibility for themselves in college (including myself I hope) will be adequately prepared.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
Whats wrong with getting money from your dad ?
Im sick and tired of this BS way of see life where if you havent fought for everything you have, you are incapable of appreaciating it.
There are exceptions, but reports like this show that this isn't just a stereotype right?
I'm assuming that you are one of these people (since you seem pretty defensive about it), Why don't you try getting a part time job even if you don't 'need' it. Think of it like an experiment and/or part of your college study to gain life experience.
If they never pushed the birdies out of the nest how would they learn to fly?
So after being criticised for being 'babied' while at university, then I suppose I have the right later on in life to criticise you for avoiding responsibility in life by not providing financially for your parents?
Independence in the way you speak of (financial detachment from your family) might mean taking on more responsibility now, but it also means taking on less later.
On December 03 2009 09:36 meaculpa wrote: Who's a philosophy professor to tell the rest of the world to "go get a job"? While most people have to get a job shortly after they get their BA/BS, he enjoyed another 3-8 year extension of his college life known as "grad school". Anyway, why should a job and marriage be the top aspirations of my life? The new generation must take on job to keep society running, but nobody will ever bullshit me into enjoying staying awake for 15 hours, fixing a bug carelessly made 5 years ago in some boring program maybe 1000 people in the world care about. I'd do it because I get paid and that's it. And marriage? I think misgivings about marriage would be very understandable given that 50% of marriages fail, quickly. Maybe it's time to reconsider it?
Agree. Philosophy is up there with psychology and theology for the sections with the easiest and most bullshit courses.
On December 03 2009 04:33 CharlieMurphy wrote: Don't a lot of college kids have shitty part time jobs anyways? Doesn't this cover all of that shit?
A lot of college kids don't have jobs at all.
so, what? You just live off parents money and/or student loans? Then there's the problem right there. Students are babied.
ding ding ding! you win! Frankly people who push college as a way of making yourself have a happy life is bullshit now of days many people can go into a trade(such as a mechanic or carpenter) and achieve financial stability and independence much quicker with a whole lot less trouble. Only diff is how you see your job in relation to your social status, frankly to me hell it's the money for the time that i need to work that counts who the hell cares if i get dirty.
I bet a whole lot less students would stop drinking and parting all the time if they had to pay for their own shit 100%. Hell most of my friends that don't drink (they are in colleges in Cali) are those who have to pay for everything them selves.
College is great for 2 things 1 parting and getting shitfaced 24/7 2 just learning nice little things that may or may not help you in your jobs to come.
And what do you have to pay when you're parents are paying all the fees? Just need to not fail out of college basically the system is the parents pay for their kids to party in hopes that they wont have to have troubles getting jobs etc. But everyone I knew that wasn't already interning at places had a fuck time hard getting a job after college hell i know 4 people that went back for their doctorates just to avoid looking for a job.
What ever happened to the pre 1970's America where a grocer could retire conformable instead of having to take 3 jobs just to stay afloat.
You argument seems to completely ignore that sector of our economy known as waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc. They drink and party 24/7 and pay for all of it themselves. And they don't go to college. Most all the people I know who don't go to college either end up working as a waiter, bartender, drug-dealer, or jail-bed warmer.
They don't go to college or anywhere, I said pick up a trade which does require training where you get it depends on the trade. I didn't say skip all forms of education and you'll be fine i said there are alternatives to making a decent wage that don't require a 4 year degree.
"psychological development"? lol We haven't grown up psycologically for 1000 years,so we are still killing each other which is the waste of energy. Isn't it?
On December 03 2009 09:36 meaculpa wrote: Who's a philosophy professor to tell the rest of the world to "go get a job"? While most people have to get a job shortly after they get their BA/BS, he enjoyed another 3-8 year extension of his college life known as "grad school". Anyway, why should a job and marriage be the top aspirations of my life? The new generation must take on job to keep society running, but nobody will ever bullshit me into enjoying staying awake for 15 hours, fixing a bug carelessly made 5 years ago in some boring program maybe 1000 people in the world care about. I'd do it because I get paid and that's it. And marriage? I think misgivings about marriage would be very understandable given that 50% of marriages fail, quickly. Maybe it's time to reconsider it?
Agree. Philosophy is up there with psychology and theology for the sections with the easiest and most bullshit courses.
Sadly psycology is an easy course, it could be much much harder, the problem is you can really educate someone to be a psycologist, its kinda inate
Personal development occurs most dramatically in social interactions. It is in these interactions that students develop skills to relate to others, learn to deal with rejection and satisfy their needs to be known and loved for who they are. If the college social scene is dominated by alcohol and drugs, intoxication makes it exceedingly difficult to develop social skills, heighten responsiveness or deepen relationships. If every party centers on alcohol, students cannot confront new social problems to solve, find new ways of interacting with others or develop new possibilities for the deeper realization of the basic needs for recognition, empathy and friendship.
wait what? Most people who do drugs and drink at parties are pretty social and have lots of acquaintances and friends all over the place. Just think of this, if you are out of smokes and money and addicted, it forces you to go out and talk to people. Often times you make friends this way alone, this is one of the only pros to smoking cigarettes.
You don't nominally form solid and worthwhile relationships you get growth out of that way.
I'm going through a quarter life crisis type thing right now, even though I'm only 19. I realize that nothing we do really matters.. and that most of the people I am supposed to model myself after I don't want to be. I think that I've trudged through this and I'm gonna start doing what I want to.
For all of its exhilaration and excitement, however, youth culture can only produce a repetition of adolescent forms of thought and action with no impetus toward development into mature forms of personal and social life.
What is an "adolescent form of thought" and how is the only possibility repeating it? What is a "mature form of personal life"? What is a "mature form of social life"?
...mainly because the college years are short and students either transfer, drop out or do not know what they want to do after college or where they want to do it. With this kind of uncertainty about the future, how can a student make a commitment to sustain a love relationship?
College is a 4-year program, the average time spent at a job is ~5 years.
Joe is accepted into the law program at Berkeley; Susan wishes to pursue a Ph.D. in physics at MIT. They cannot allow themselves to fall too much in love or the dream of one will have to give way to the dream of the other.
Because being accepted for a job in another city is completely different then studying there. And long-distance relationships never work out.
This paper needs to be covered in those little wikipedia [source?] notes.
Characteristics of quarter-life crisis may include[citation needed]:
Realizing the pursuits of ones peers are useless Confronting their own mortality Watching time slowly take its toll on their parents, only to realize they are next insecurity regarding the fact that their actions are meaningless insecurity concerning ability to love themselves, let alone another person insecurity regarding present accomplishments re-evaluation of close interpersonal relationships lack of friendships or romantic relationships, sexual frustration, and involuntary celibacy disappointment with one's job nostalgia for university, college, high school or elementary school life tendency to hold stronger opinions boredom with social interactions loss of closeness to high school and college friends financially-rooted stress (overwhelming college loans, unanticipatedly high cost of living, etc.) loneliness, depression and suicide desire to have children a sense that everyone is, somehow, doing better than you frustration with social ills
This is why I recommend http://www.teach12.com/ to undergrads with nothing else to do with their time.
Extremely good primers into a variety of fields. Have students learn more, engage into arguments about different problems not related at all to their major all over getting trashed or waste time playing poker or whatever undergrads are stereotyped doing.
Note I say primer here in every single of the term, I don't expect one dvd viewing to be the all and end all, one must read after all
On December 03 2009 13:11 ShaperofDreams wrote: I'm going through a quarter life crisis type thing right now, even though I'm only 19. I realize that nothing we do really matters.. and that most of the people I am supposed to model myself after I don't want to be. I think that I've trudged through this and I'm gonna start doing what I want to.
Nothing we do really matters? How did you come to this conclusion? Because we all eventually die? Because we're such a small part of the universe? If your answer is something along these lines, then you should think think about this a bit more...
You're not supposed to 'copy' other people. It's about understanding and learning the rationale behind a person's actions. Take what you like and disregard what you disagree with to eventually create your own individual stance on how to live your own life.
On December 03 2009 14:32 liosama wrote: This is why I recommend http://www.teach12.com/ to undergrads with nothing else to do with their time.
Extremely good primers into a variety of fields. Have students learn more, engage into arguments about different problems not related at all to their major all over getting trashed or waste time playing poker or whatever undergrads are stereotyped doing.
Note I say primer here in every single of the term, I don't expect one dvd viewing to be the all and end all, one must read after all
I think a lot of people are confusing social development with sociability, and part of social development and maturity is acknowledging and embracing the responsibility you have to yourself and to the other people around you.
Personal story: a few of my friends decided to hold a party last year, which ended up breaking the floor into their basement. Rather than man up and pay the bill (yeah, it'd be a shitty thing to do) they found however many excuses and made up some story about moving furniture. They lucked out with a pretty chill landlord (likely there was something ALREADY wrong with the floor), but the irresponsibility bothered me.
Another one: I've seen time and time again in college that when people take on the small responsibilities (i.e. running a student organization, planning events) that people tend to fuck themselves up big time. They're a bit more socially responsible than their peers, which is why they're nominated for the role in the first place, but they end up killing themselves trying to make everyone happy, and they start to antagonize everyone because they haven't developed the maturity to conduct themselves in a leadership position. This has happened to me.
On December 03 2009 14:32 liosama wrote: This is why I recommend http://www.teach12.com/ to undergrads with nothing else to do with their time.
Extremely good primers into a variety of fields. Have students learn more, engage into arguments about different problems not related at all to their major all over getting trashed or waste time playing poker or whatever undergrads are stereotyped doing.
Note I say primer here in every single of the term, I don't expect one dvd viewing to be the all and end all, one must read after all
omg i wish i had money to pay for that stuff
Yeah, that doesn't generally fall within a college student's budget...
Of course, the idea is sound, and there are certainly more affordable options for the same kind of learning.
On December 03 2009 14:32 liosama wrote: This is why I recommend http://www.teach12.com/ to undergrads with nothing else to do with their time.
Extremely good primers into a variety of fields. Have students learn more, engage into arguments about different problems not related at all to their major all over getting trashed or waste time playing poker or whatever undergrads are stereotyped doing.
Note I say primer here in every single of the term, I don't expect one dvd viewing to be the all and end all, one must read after all
omg i wish i had money to pay for that stuff
It's not quite as cool as that, but MIT has put a lot of their course material free to view online at OpenCourseWare. Most courses really don't have a lot of information available, but since there are so many, you should be able to find a few with full multimedia that interest you/
On December 03 2009 14:32 liosama wrote: This is why I recommend http://www.teach12.com/ to undergrads with nothing else to do with their time.
Extremely good primers into a variety of fields. Have students learn more, engage into arguments about different problems not related at all to their major all over getting trashed or waste time playing poker or whatever undergrads are stereotyped doing.
Note I say primer here in every single of the term, I don't expect one dvd viewing to be the all and end all, one must read after all
omg i wish i had money to pay for that stuff
It's not quite as cool as that, but MIT has put a lot of their course material free to view online at OpenCourseWare. Most courses really don't have a lot of information available, but since there are so many, you should be able to find a few with full multimedia that interest you/
On December 03 2009 15:48 baal wrote: people who dont drink in college are nto more social at all, they are usually awkward outcasts.
I disagree with this theory in almost everything, its just conservative propaganda of some square headed asshat yearning for the old days.
Yeah there's a big fucking surprise, Baal disagrees with something.
I don't drink, infact I abhor it yet i'm the most popular guy in my degree.
I agree with Baal's disagreeing.
Edit: And yeah MIT open course ware is cool I used it once to check out some mechanics lecture. Heaps awesome. they even show those crappy 1950s physics videos. I thought my university did it cause its a relatively shit Australian one, but MIT does it so it aint just our uni :D
On December 03 2009 08:07 mahnini wrote: somewhere a long the line college went from a supplementary tool for educational growth to a mandatory stepping stone in order to stay relevant in the job market. i'm not complaining, it's only natural. however, i think this is where much of the problem stems from.
i find it surprising that he advocates the idea that college is the reason for limiting growth when really the entire education system holds you hand for much of your life and implements the nearly the exact same structure and social norms, what do you expect? put a man in prison for some twenty-odd years and expect him to function "normally" in the real world, the example is extreme but it's something to think about.
i can also recall many times throughout my educational career in which a teacher would say "X schooling will prepare you for Y". perhaps i was naive, but i took that to heart only to find disappointment. you should not depend on any one institution to prepare you for the so-called real world. you should not wholly depend on any institution for anything, though they do provide opportunities, as growth stems from within. always has, always will.
I remember in college there were some professors that really tried to prepare you, while others that literally made a deal with you at the beginning of the semester saying everyone gets an A, I just want to get good peer reviews. Literally that was the first conversation that went on the first day.
These students that are getting babied, some of them have the gall to complain about the one guy that's trying to help him. I remember one professor that would purposely give us more than we could handle (While giving us ways to get around it.) and put us in situations that we'd often run into in the workplace. The thing was even if you fell and couldn't handle it, the lowest grade you could get in his class was a B. It's like a mother bird pushing a baby bird out of the nest, only there is a safety net below and people still have the nerve to treat the guy like shit when that professor really cared more about their future than anyone else.
The education system itself can often punish good teachers that are willing to treat you like an adult rather than a child. If a professor helps prepare kids for life in the real world they become the minority and these spoiled babied kids that don't even understand that by all expectations of society and the law they are an adult by the time they graduate think this guy is such a jerk when he is the only one willing to go out on a line to help them.
I don't really care if a person get's babied or not during their first twenty years of life. A kindergarten like atmosphere is for kindergartners and that's ok, because they're just kids. By the time you hit your teens you should probably be getting your shit together, but even if you don't then it isn't the end of the world because you still have some time. If a kid has one year left before graduation no one's doing them any favors by treating them like a child, they're going to be an adult to society whether they like it or not and by that point that is the only thing someone can do for them.
You can't expect someone to come along and teach you how to live your life or one day it will finally click and you'll grow up. "you should not depend on any one institution or person to prepare you for the so-called real world. you should not wholly depend on any institution for anything, though they do provide opportunities, as growth stems from within. always has, always will."
If you only have one year before you leave school for the real world. I implore you to figure out what you're going to do afterwards. I don't care what you do with your life as long as you know what you're doing.
Also
On December 03 2009 04:30 rgfdxm wrote: Excellent article. I agree that the lack of role models and informal mentoring relationships is a big deal. The age segregation bit applies to all levels of school but it doesn't stop being true for college either.
It seems to me that there are a lot of aspects of "adult culture" that contribute to the difficulty of the transition to post-college life, but that's probably outside the scope of this essay. Everything he brings up are legitimate issues that deserve some thought.
Because I might not have another chance, thank you.
EPT
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