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On October 28 2009 23:04 SwedishHero wrote: Anybody who is saying that being a vegetarian is morally or ethically right can suck my dick.
I don't think it's ethically or morally wrong to eat meat but I feel like eating meat is hypocritical if you wouldn't be able to kill the animal yourself due to empathy for the animal.
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On October 29 2009 00:55 Element)LoGiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2009 00:45 APurpleCow wrote:On October 28 2009 23:51 Spinfusor wrote:On October 28 2009 22:07 Velr wrote:* I couldn't personally kill a cow so I shouldn't ask somebody else to do it in my place. Thats, in my book, the best reason to not eat meat. Do we get to apply that to sewage workers too? Not being able to kill a cow would be because of his ethics. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have any ethical problems with being a sewage worker. Most animals, even predators, might leave you alone, until they're hungry.
That's retarded.
If a vegetarian was starving, I'm sure he or she would eat an animal too.
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On October 29 2009 01:07 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2009 00:55 Element)LoGiC wrote:On October 29 2009 00:45 APurpleCow wrote:On October 28 2009 23:51 Spinfusor wrote:On October 28 2009 22:07 Velr wrote:* I couldn't personally kill a cow so I shouldn't ask somebody else to do it in my place. Thats, in my book, the best reason to not eat meat. Do we get to apply that to sewage workers too? Not being able to kill a cow would be because of his ethics. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have any ethical problems with being a sewage worker. Most animals, even predators, might leave you alone, until they're hungry. That's retarded. If a vegetarian was starving, I'm sure he or she would eat an animal too.
That's what I meant
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Not eating meat does nothing to impact the meat industry. If you really care about the environment, bike to work or conserve your electricity consumption. Vegetarianism is fine if you really don't like eating meat, but if you do, sacrificing it for this cause won't help anything environment related. Just because you choose not to consume it doesn't mean it won't continue just like it always has.
Furthermore, I was trying to find some real numbers (and I couldn't), but I'd be willing to bet global methane production pales in comparison to CO2 production. Methane isn't the real problem, and focusing on eliminating it over other, more problematic greenhouse gasses, such as CO2, is a waste of time.
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Choosing to become vegetarian reduces the demand for meat which impacts the amount of meat produced. Not much, but one person's biking to work and saving electricity also saves very little electricity.
CO2 is the leading culprit, but CH4 is by no means negligible.
Here is a link that analyzes the energy effects of eating meat vs driving, etc.
http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/energy.html
A pound of beef requires uses 0.6 gallons of gasoline in production; a pound of potatoes uses about 0.003 gallons.
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On October 28 2009 23:04 SwedishHero wrote: Anybody who is saying that being a vegetarian is morally or ethically right can suck my dick.
Do I have too?
On October 29 2009 00:50 daz wrote: how the hell am i supposed to get 200g of protein a day without eating meat or meat prodcuts
Very easily? You're going to be needing a huge amount of calories if you're actually eating that much protein anyway, but beans are on a par with meat in terms of protein percentage, as well as being lower in fat. Also, how big are you? 200g seems an awful lot even if you way 100+kg. You might want to look into protein related kidney problems if you're doing it over the long term.
On October 29 2009 01:07 APurpleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2009 00:55 Element)LoGiC wrote:On October 29 2009 00:45 APurpleCow wrote:On October 28 2009 23:51 Spinfusor wrote:On October 28 2009 22:07 Velr wrote:* I couldn't personally kill a cow so I shouldn't ask somebody else to do it in my place. Thats, in my book, the best reason to not eat meat. Do we get to apply that to sewage workers too? Not being able to kill a cow would be because of his ethics. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have any ethical problems with being a sewage worker. Most animals, even predators, might leave you alone, until they're hungry. That's retarded. If a vegetarian was starving, I'm sure he or she would eat an animal too.
Yeah. That's true. But if I was lost in the desert with a person I had no particular affiliation with, I'd probably eat them too. And I don't really want to shakily transfer that conclusion back into the real world.
P.S oh, and fun though this is, can we all just agree that Methane emissions DO in fact make up 1/5 of the cause of global warming like all leading scientists say, and that all the vegetarians/vegans in the world aren't silently dieing of malnutrition.
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lol didnt think this would turn into such a huge thread
sorry didnt read whole thread only like 3 pages so sorry if i repeat.
here's what I think and personally do
MEAT IS DELICIOUS the flavour of meat is something so fucking rich and different, no amount of vegetables can replace or even come close to mimicing that flavour and texture.
BUT I DO AGREE THAT MEAT USES UP RESOURCES which is a failure of free market where the total costs are not calculated into the price tag of the product.
THE PRICE OF MEAT IS TOO LOW FOR IT TO BE SUSTAINABLE
so until governments slap a FAT ASS TAX on meat to get money to a) counteract all the damage harvesting beef/pork creates b) drop the demand for meat
the problem is VERY VERY VERY UNLIKELY solved by promoting decreased meat consumption.
It would be like trying to reduce gas usage by promoting bicycling instead of taxing oil and automobiles.
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To the above poster, of course the problem won't be solved by promoting less meat eating but it will be helped.
Think of it this way:
If vegetarianism was never promoted there would probably be very few vegetarians around. Now look at all these restaurants, fast food chains, etc, offering either vegetarian menus or at least options. It's becoming a trend to be vegetarian and it is becoming socially acceptable and much easier to find vegetarian options. Promoting it produces real results over time.
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On October 28 2009 20:06 Piy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 18:51 gchan wrote:http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/20/low-emission-cow.htmlThis is the way to change the system if you are truly dedicated to the cause. Vegetarians, I respect your right to choose what you want to eat, but honestly, you aren't going to change the social norms of billions of people nor are you going to take down a vital economic infrastructure that has been around for thousands of years. Vegetarianism is an urban luxury that isn't practical for the majority of the people in the United States and in developing countries. As is, living in San Francisco (arguably, one of the hottest spots for vegetarianism), I would have to easily pay 2 or 3 times as much for the equivalent protein yield of a vegetarian diet. Spinach easily costs almost $2/lb; dal costs $3+/lb; the cheapest nuts cost $5/lb. Comparatively, most of the protein I eat costs less than $2/lb (yes, I know this is on the cheap end). My point is though, is that in a major vegetarian area, it's pretty expensive to be a healthy vegetarian. Now try to apply that to areas outside of New England and the Pacific Coast. How many people do you think have the resources and access to eat a healthy vegetarian diet? How many people do you think have the knowledge of how to eat a healthy vegetarian diet? And this is excluding the fact that a lot of times, meat is cheaper out in the rural areas than it is in urban areas. From a purely utility maximizing standpoint, people aren't going to be vegetarian. If you are truly committed to the cause of vegetarianism for the sake of global warming, then save a couple extra bucks by eating meat and donate that money to good research causes. You can't beat the marginal utility on a per dollar basis. If you are truly committed to the cause of vegetarianism for other reasons, this doesn't apply to you. This is just fundamentally untrue on several levels. Firstly, low quality meat is not a traditional part of a healthy diet, regardless of how much protein it contains. Secondly, you would have to eat an absurd (ABSURD!) amount of vegetables to get the same quantity of protein that you get in meat. So using a lb for lb ratio to argue cost is just stupid. But the point your missing is that eating less protein isn't a bad thing, as the average meat eater eats far more protein than is good for them anyway. Now perhaps it's different in America, I don't know, I've never been there (although all Americans in the UK complain about our food prices). If I go into a supermarket I can buy 4 chicken breasts for £2 - £2.50 or I can buy a 1kg bag of dried beans for £0.90. Or I could buy a large bag of potatos and feed myself for a week. The thing is, if you're eating meat, you still need to buy things like leafy vegetables, root vegetables, fruit and pulses to have a healthy diet, but the meat can easily be replaced by beans/potatos/nuts (which I feel you've misrepresented) and can still provide you with sufficient calories and protein. It's one of the fairly well kept secrets of the meat industry, but in almost all cases, even if you're a vegan, if you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough protein. So don't try and wrangle out the "it's not viable for most people" argument. In fact, one of the reasons for the depreciation in meat and appreciation in vegetables is due to the fact that meat producers are taking up more and more of the land to grow animals rather than vegetables.
I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. It's really hard to compare food prices of the UK to food prices in the USA because the US produces a lot more produce/meats than the UK does. Oddly enough, and for reasons I'm not completely sure why, most of the places I've been to in the US sell meat cheaper than they do vegetables. And this is using a gram-to-gram protein comparison. I specifically chose those foods as examples because they are rich in protein and somewhat comparable on a gram-to-gram basis for protein. Potatoes have virtually no protein. Beans do, but it is strangely difficult to find dried beans for sale here; they mostly come in the canned variety.
And you're probably right about most Americans eating too much low quality meat in their diets. I'm not disputing this. What I am disputing is that it's monetarily cheaper to have a healthy vegetarian diet that has sufficient amounts of protein. If you're consciously and constantly aware of every calorie you eat and every gram of protein you intake, healthy meats like chicken breasts and tuna are a lot cheaper than the protein rich vegetable equivalents. And I know this because I have been vegetarian for weeks and months at a time before. Even now, I only eat meat half the days of the week...and fact of the matter is that it's quite costly to get enough protein from purely vegetables.
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So are starcraft players that don't eat meat play as vegiterran? + Show Spoiler +such a bad pun, i'm sorry
On a more related subject, I highly doubt vegetarianism will truly gain a popular following. To me, it seems like its just a small-percentage type of deal, as homosexuality is (I AM NOT CONNECTING THE TWO, KAY?). Too many people like meat. *edit* some grammar.
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On October 29 2009 02:45 gchan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 20:06 Piy wrote:On October 28 2009 18:51 gchan wrote:http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/20/low-emission-cow.htmlThis is the way to change the system if you are truly dedicated to the cause. Vegetarians, I respect your right to choose what you want to eat, but honestly, you aren't going to change the social norms of billions of people nor are you going to take down a vital economic infrastructure that has been around for thousands of years. Vegetarianism is an urban luxury that isn't practical for the majority of the people in the United States and in developing countries. As is, living in San Francisco (arguably, one of the hottest spots for vegetarianism), I would have to easily pay 2 or 3 times as much for the equivalent protein yield of a vegetarian diet. Spinach easily costs almost $2/lb; dal costs $3+/lb; the cheapest nuts cost $5/lb. Comparatively, most of the protein I eat costs less than $2/lb (yes, I know this is on the cheap end). My point is though, is that in a major vegetarian area, it's pretty expensive to be a healthy vegetarian. Now try to apply that to areas outside of New England and the Pacific Coast. How many people do you think have the resources and access to eat a healthy vegetarian diet? How many people do you think have the knowledge of how to eat a healthy vegetarian diet? And this is excluding the fact that a lot of times, meat is cheaper out in the rural areas than it is in urban areas. From a purely utility maximizing standpoint, people aren't going to be vegetarian. If you are truly committed to the cause of vegetarianism for the sake of global warming, then save a couple extra bucks by eating meat and donate that money to good research causes. You can't beat the marginal utility on a per dollar basis. If you are truly committed to the cause of vegetarianism for other reasons, this doesn't apply to you. This is just fundamentally untrue on several levels. Firstly, low quality meat is not a traditional part of a healthy diet, regardless of how much protein it contains. Secondly, you would have to eat an absurd (ABSURD!) amount of vegetables to get the same quantity of protein that you get in meat. So using a lb for lb ratio to argue cost is just stupid. But the point your missing is that eating less protein isn't a bad thing, as the average meat eater eats far more protein than is good for them anyway. Now perhaps it's different in America, I don't know, I've never been there (although all Americans in the UK complain about our food prices). If I go into a supermarket I can buy 4 chicken breasts for £2 - £2.50 or I can buy a 1kg bag of dried beans for £0.90. Or I could buy a large bag of potatos and feed myself for a week. The thing is, if you're eating meat, you still need to buy things like leafy vegetables, root vegetables, fruit and pulses to have a healthy diet, but the meat can easily be replaced by beans/potatos/nuts (which I feel you've misrepresented) and can still provide you with sufficient calories and protein. It's one of the fairly well kept secrets of the meat industry, but in almost all cases, even if you're a vegan, if you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough protein. So don't try and wrangle out the "it's not viable for most people" argument. In fact, one of the reasons for the depreciation in meat and appreciation in vegetables is due to the fact that meat producers are taking up more and more of the land to grow animals rather than vegetables. I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. It's really hard to compare food prices of the UK to food prices in the USA because the US produces a lot more produce/meats than the UK does. Oddly enough, and for reasons I'm not completely sure why, most of the places I've been to in the US sell meat cheaper than they do vegetables. And this is using a gram-to-gram protein comparison. I specifically chose those foods as examples because they are rich in protein and somewhat comparable on a gram-to-gram basis for protein. Potatoes have virtually no protein. Beans do, but it is strangely difficult to find dried beans for sale here; they mostly come in the canned variety. And you're probably right about most Americans eating too much low quality meat in their diets. I'm not disputing this. What I am disputing is that it's monetarily cheaper to have a healthy vegetarian diet that has sufficient amounts of protein. If you're consciously and constantly aware of every calorie you eat and every gram of protein you intake, healthy meats like chicken breasts and tuna are a lot cheaper than the protein rich vegetable equivalents. And I know this because I have been vegetarian for weeks and months at a time before. Even now, I only eat meat half the days of the week...and fact of the matter is that it's quite costly to get enough protein from purely vegetables.
Canned beans are pretty much as good for you as dried ones, they're just different methods of mass storage. I did some research and you're right, meat is ridiculously cheap in America. Thing is, so is everything else. Your food costs nothing :o It's nothing like that in Europe.
And you've still missed my point. To get an equivalent amount of protein from vegetables compared to a largely meat based diet can be hard (although not if you eat beans) for the same price, my point is is that if your eating meat every day all week, you're getting far to much protein anyway. You do realise that most average sized people only need to eat about 50-60g of protein a day right? That's like a tin of beans, 2 slices of bread and 5 potatoes (average of 7g protein per 100g weight btw). And that's before you factor in the protein from all the other things you'll no doubt eat in that day. That would cost me about £1. I don't know how little you could get it for in America. $1 probably.
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On October 28 2009 23:04 SwedishHero wrote: Anybody who is saying that being a vegetarian is morally or ethically right can suck my dick.
you're in sweden.
*sigh*
this always happens...
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The whole argument of whether you can get more protein per dollar from meat or non-meat is pretty pointless. No one chooses to be vegetarian or meat-eating for that reason.
The reason we'll never have a majority of vegetarians is cultural. The majority of people are apathetic and will either not ask the question "is it ok to eat meat", or even if they are told that it is ethically good to avoid meat, they just won't care.
Regardless of this not becoming the norm, its good to avoid meat for countless reasons and their is nothing wrong in promoting it. Also to meat-eaters: I don't think it is morally wrong to eat meat.
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lol who couldn't bring themselves to kill a cow it's a walking bag of meat. I think we have plenty of time to adapt our technology and methods to make our resources last longer.
Although I agree that most Americans and Europeans eat way too large meals. I was raised by (eastern) euros so my meals were huge and I got a tummy when my metabolism wasn't at it''s prime, started eating smaller meals and exercising a bit, bam 20 pounds gone.
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I'm eating two delicious steaks (rare of course) for dinner right now. Lightly seasoned of course, any kind of sauce just ruins it.
Also I would love to have the chance to slaughter some cows personally.
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What do y'all make of this?
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^ We cook our meat, that causes a lot of evolutionary changes.
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On October 29 2009 14:42 psion0011 wrote: I'm eating two delicious steaks (rare of course) for dinner right now. Lightly seasoned of course, any kind of sauce just ruins it.
Also I would love to have the chance to slaughter some cows personally. At least you eat your steak properly. One of my good friends eats his steak well done and it makes my head hurt.
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On October 28 2009 22:07 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +* I couldn't personally kill a cow so I shouldn't ask somebody else to do it in my place. Thats, in my book, the best reason to not eat meat.
I'd be happy to kill a cow for food. Embracing our ancestral roots ONE COW AT A TIME.
I can't believe Jayme is responsible for the safety and wellbeing of the public o.o frightening.
Comments like these are mildly enraging.
Either say why or go to hell honestly. If it's because of my comment that I can't get the same nutritional requirements from a vegetarian diet without a ton of unappealing (and more expensive in the USA) alternative then well.. wtf man that would be true. If it's because protein from plants is different from meant... well that's also true. Is it really that significant? NO but it should be mentioned because it could be a factor for people that are body building.
Your implication that i'm too stupid or something without a comment as to WHAT THE PROBLEM is has to be the most annoying type of forum post possible.
If you want to be a vegetarian GO FOR IT. It's not practical for everyone though.
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I don't see how taking meat out of your diet will lower greenhouse gases, we live in a society of excess. I'm sure more unsold meat gets thrown out then what the entire sub group of people who don't eat meat would consume. The idea that since I stopped eating meat they will stop murdering half a cow each month is laughable.
You can't compare walking instead of driving to not eating meat. The meat will be made whether I eat it or not. While if I choose to walk that means 1 less car giving off C02.
Also even if you look at it in a completely hypothetical manner sure it may mean less meat being made and that helps for global warming. But it also means more natural habitat being destroyed for farmlands.
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