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On July 20 2009 16:28 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I think you're not understanding my point... you do realize there is no Cammy in Japan right? Nobody here plays console fighting games, EVER. So we only have the arcade.
This is a console tournament...
I get your point since your first post. I'm a Daigo fan and I have seen him live, but there is a difference between being a fan and being a Japanese dick rider.
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Ken:
I see you don't get it at all... ah well. The W is all that matters right? Heh, not testing your skill against someone else's. That seems to be the American mindset in FGs over the last 5 years.
If the W is all that matters, this yes, Stanford did the right thing and Wong should have picked Seth to beat Daigo.
If you want to test yourself and fight, then Stanford should have used Akuma; his main, to fight Dan; who's never seen a Cammy is his life. Stanford took the easy street, winning at the select screen.
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On July 20 2009 16:30 [X]Ken_D wrote:
but there is a difference between being a fan and being a Japanese dick rider. So I'm a dickrider because I think picking a character that isn't available in a country is a low class move? Rah rah, Japan... and stuff.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On July 20 2009 16:28 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I think you're not understanding my point... you do realize there is no Cammy in Japan right? Nobody here plays console fighting games, EVER. So we only have the arcade.
Thus, in your example, it would be if someone picked the Xel'Naga to counter pick in SC.
I don't care so much about Wong vs Daigo... Wong always does this and always loses to bums in SBO for it. But Stanford preaches manner in the FG community and does something like sniper Japanese with console-only characters? That's just a low class move.
Also, I am very learned in how FGs play out. And yes, I do agree the American tournament system is better (albeit longer). However, the point here is the road leads to SBO. I know Wong is going. What's he going to do there when he has to commit to a character? A large component of his game has always been counter picking and this is why he tanks in SBOs.
How is it cheap to pick a character on the character select screen?
Are they supposed to show mercy to the Japanese players simply because they practice on the arcade version and not on the console version?
This is a tournament. People play to win, not to be "honourable".
Besides, Daigo and Dan came to EVO knowing full well they would have to beat players -- potentially very skilled ones -- using the console characters. They also knew full well it was their biggest weakness, and they should have expected their opponents to exploit it.
As for your comments on Justin Wong and counterpicking, now you're just talking out of your ass. Everyone knows he wins because of his superior skills, not because he counterpicks. Everyone except you, apparently.
Lastly, you don't seem to realize that players are not allowed to change characters in our SBO qualifiers. (And EVO is not an SBO qualifier, by the way.) The players who qualify for SBO outside of Japan qualify with that rule in effect. The road to SBO is the SBO qualifiers, period. (Why are you calling a tournament with console characters a part of the "road to SBO", anyway?)
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On July 20 2009 16:36 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I see you don't get it at all... ah well. The W is all that matters right? Heh, not testing your skill against someone else's. That seems to be the American mindset in FGs over the last 5 years.
Apparently I must not be getting it despite everyone in the thread arguing against you. Japan must be hiding their PS3 and copies of console SF4. Not to mention access to PSN live which free.
On July 20 2009 16:39 sk` wrote:
So I'm a dickrider because I think picking a character that isn't available in a country is a low class move? Rah rah, Japan... and stuff.
No, I consider a dickrider as someone that harks on and on while blindly follow what they superficially see, but don't look at something within the whole context.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On July 20 2009 16:36 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I see you don't get it at all... ah well. The W is all that matters right? Heh, not testing your skill against someone else's. That seems to be the American mindset in FGs over the last 5 years.
Nice troll.
I will ignore you now.
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Bill:
It isn't a matter of "honor". My point is that you're not beating someone when you pick a character they CANNOT get experience against. I would agree 100% with you if there was potential for them to gain experience, but they just didn't because of whatever reason... but it isn't possible. Granted, not living here I guess you can not understand the culture - in short, nobody plays fighting games on consoles. We all play in the arcades. Our apartments are small and there's a large stigma to spending too much time at home; especially when you're young.
As for your comment about Wong. I will not say he lacks talent or skill, he is clearly a genius. However, he is a well known counter picker in Marvel; and as I said, his SBO results speak volumes about that.
As I said, I was unaware if Evo was or was not a SBO qualifier this year.
Also... you called me a troll after replying... strange. But ok.
Ken:
As I said, we only play AC here. I'd be willing to bet those two don't even own PS3s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori
As I explained to Bill, the concept of staying in to play games is considered near taboo at their age.
Regardless of the culture, Stanford said himself that he was picking Cammy because he knew Dan's exp versus her would be zero. So, say everything you want, but by his own admission, he did it for the low class reasons I stated (to win on the select screen and not actually face the opponent).
I largely take issue because Stanford has tried to forward himself as a manner person to rally around (in contrast to Wong) recently. To me, today's actions were hypocritical. He wanted money - plain and simple.
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On July 20 2009 16:15 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I've been to several actually. None in the last 2 years though. I was a presenter in 2005. So yeah, spare me.
The match up doesn't matter in Cammy v Ryu because there are zero Cammy's here. Stanford going that route; knowing the Japanese scene firsthand, was cowardly. It shows he was scared to fight with his game so he picked a character there was no way the Japanese could know. Boxer vs Daigo wasn't so much a disrespect as Stanford's Cammy vs Dan. He knew Japanese had plenty of exp vs Akuma so he pussied out and picked a character that isn't available here.
Comparing that situation to any ST example doesn't even begin to work. It might if there was some secret character in ST that was only available in Japan and the US had no exp against it.
Goodwill:
I don't know the format this year... but usually Evo is a step to SBO qualitication. If so, counter picking is a moronic tactic on the part of Americans. It means we don't see the player who adapts with their skillset, but rather we send someone who wins on the select screen. If the road leads to SBO then you should adapt to the rules of that situation. Either way, the SBO results always speak volumes about the flawed mindset of the Americans.
Did you see gigantic banners advertising SBO QUALIFIER HERE anywhere in the evo event?
And that last part, that was incredibly thick. In fact, your whole post is incredibly thick.
And I scroll down ... it looks like you are on a crusade against the American fighting game community. Every single post from you is about how counter picking is wrong, how the Japanese way is the proper way, how Japanese players are better than Americans. Do you ever stop a moment and think that different players, events and communities have varying preferences? Why should Americans drop their consoles because arcades are everywhere in Japan? Why should Americans limit character variety and match making dynamics because the Japanese would have it otherwise? You threw things like "low class move", "testing your skill", "to win on the select screen and not actually face the opponent" liberally and contend you aren't trolling. I see you are not trolling, you are just incredibly dense, that's all.
The funny thing is that you actually mention the Japanese video game culture is different by explaining things like "arcades are everywhere", "gamers never stay indoor" blah blah blah then immediately goes around and bash the American players. You are an amazing poster.
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lol sk, you're an amazing troll 
It's just not possible for japanese people to play their ps3s. Unlike the vast majority of North America who waited for the console version to play the game due to some social stigma about 8+ hour drives to the closest arcade with it, Japan simply could not turn on their console game that came out before the NA or EU version.
The tournament could not have ended better though. Wong never ceases to be amazing. Glad the streaming worked out well too, it was going to be hard to beat djwheat's stream of Devastation, but I loved it. Having Dogface helps :D
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On July 20 2009 15:18 GoodWill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2009 15:00 Barracks_Obama wrote:
Justin is a very good player, but his showboating makes the scene look bad. Just perpetuates the cocky US image. When you are prancing around like a fairy, nobody looks respectfully on that.
I give him props, and a big congrates to Daigo. For god's sake he's not sticking out a downward pointing thumb here. This is a live console event, it's supposed to be LIVELY. Just because Daigo prefers sitting there glued to his chair for all his career doesn't mean other people shouldn't stand up and celebrate. If there's anything any player should be concerned about it should be the deafening roars of the crowd, and last time I checked nobody is putting up some soundproof glass booths on fighting game stages. Only ustream fags should be bothered with this kind of celebration.
I dont mind an outpouring of emotion but the whole EC group of him and Marn thru the whole tournament seemed like they were excessively gloating, and doing it in the finals mid-match was like whatever. He coulda done it after he won the entire first set, he earned it at that point but it was basically after every single MATCH he won.
Anyway im glad Daigo won and I really believe he gave Justin the first set just to make it interesting for the audience but even if not it showed the top level american players can definitely compete with the top 50 japanese players at a lot of match ups. Even if only two Ryu players showed up(Where were the vipers, woulda loved to see like FZ top 8)
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On July 20 2009 17:50 red.venom wrote:
Anyway im glad Daigo won and I really believe he gave Justin the first set just to make it interesting for the audience but even if not it showed the top level american players can definitely compete with the top 50 japanese players at a lot of match ups.
Daigo was struggling the 1st set as much the 2nd set so I doubt there was any giving free games. Those 2 were constantly adapting and changing to each other.
By the way, Daigo lost in a money match to Ryan Hart (United Kingdom) and Arturo (USA). It wasn't on the EVO stream. They each played best of 5 or 9 games for $100. Ryan Hart use Sagat and I think Arturo use Dhalsim. Marn was tied 4-4 and almost beat Daigo, but screwed up his combo to finish off Daigo. Daigo won, but it was with a few pixels of life left. Marn used Viper. Hopefully someone will upload these matches.
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Great finals. Was awesome to watch and really gives the game a solid future.
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daigo is definitely the best.
And I play in Japan and I can tell you, the average level here is VERY high. But I guess the top levels in the US must be pretty decent too.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Wow, that was really fun to watch even though I don't play fighting games (despite all of Bill's efforts lol)
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Dominican Republic106 Posts
With 7k on the line. why WOULDN'T you switch if it improves your chances. Lotta money.
Agreed with bill.
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I just got back. Evo was SIIICK! HOLY SHIT! Will post pictures soon.
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I'm pretty much neutral here, and I actually find SK's points are valid, though slightly biased.
Those who says he is a troll are also biased... which is "normal".
The tournament itself did not take any console/arcade-only (and maybe cultural?) elements into consideration, so you can't really blame anyone, really.
Who doesn't want the money? Honor is good thing, but sometimes the cash just weighs heavier
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 20 2009 16:56 sk` wrote:Bill: It isn't a matter of "honor". My point is that you're not beating someone when you pick a character they CANNOT get experience against. I would agree 100% with you if there was potential for them to gain experience, but they just didn't because of whatever reason... but it isn't possible. Granted, not living here I guess you can not understand the culture - in short, nobody plays fighting games on consoles. We all play in the arcades. Our apartments are small and there's a large stigma to spending too much time at home; especially when you're young. As for your comment about Wong. I will not say he lacks talent or skill, he is clearly a genius. However, he is a well known counter picker in Marvel; and as I said, his SBO results speak volumes about that. As I said, I was unaware if Evo was or was not a SBO qualifier this year. Also... you called me a troll after replying... strange. But ok. Ken: As I said, we only play AC here. I'd be willing to bet those two don't even own PS3s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HikikomoriAs I explained to Bill, the concept of staying in to play games is considered near taboo at their age. Regardless of the culture, Stanford said himself that he was picking Cammy because he knew Dan's exp versus her would be zero. So, say everything you want, but by his own admission, he did it for the low class reasons I stated (to win on the select screen and not actually face the opponent). I largely take issue because Stanford has tried to forward himself as a manner person to rally around (in contrast to Wong) recently. To me, today's actions were hypocritical. He wanted money - plain and simple.
You play to win, anything within the rules goes.
Don't be a wimp.
I don't play fighting games but it's ridiculous to call someone a bad person because he choose to maximize his chances in the finals of a tournament with 7000$ on the line.
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United States12261 Posts
On July 20 2009 16:39 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2009 16:28 sk` wrote:
Ken:
I think you're not understanding my point... you do realize there is no Cammy in Japan right? Nobody here plays console fighting games, EVER. So we only have the arcade.
Thus, in your example, it would be if someone picked the Xel'Naga to counter pick in SC.
I don't care so much about Wong vs Daigo... Wong always does this and always loses to bums in SBO for it. But Stanford preaches manner in the FG community and does something like sniper Japanese with console-only characters? That's just a low class move.
Also, I am very learned in how FGs play out. And yes, I do agree the American tournament system is better (albeit longer). However, the point here is the road leads to SBO. I know Wong is going. What's he going to do there when he has to commit to a character? A large component of his game has always been counter picking and this is why he tanks in SBOs. How is it cheap to pick a character on the character select screen? Are they supposed to show mercy to the Japanese players simply because they practice on the arcade version and not on the console version? This is a tournament. People play to win, not to be "honourable". Besides, Daigo and Dan came to EVO knowing full well they would have to beat players -- potentially very skilled ones -- using the console characters. They also knew full well it was their biggest weakness, and they should have expected their opponents to exploit it. As for your comments on Justin Wong and counterpicking, now you're just talking out of your ass. Everyone knows he wins because of his superior skills, not because he counterpicks. Everyone except you, apparently. Lastly, you don't seem to realize that players are not allowed to change characters in our SBO qualifiers. (And EVO is not an SBO qualifier, by the way.) The players who qualify for SBO outside of Japan qualify with that rule in effect. The road to SBO is the SBO qualifiers, period. (Why are you calling a tournament with console characters a part of the "road to SBO", anyway?)
a) Will the expansion/second iteration/whatever-you-want-to-call-it to SF4 feature additional characters?
b) Will it be released in arcades? If so, arcades first, or simultaneous?
c) If it is released in arcades, will the console characters "officially" join the core cast?
I'm interested in seeing more character variety in tournaments, and it seems that a lot of people claim the console characters to be either somewhat low-tier (other than Seth that is) or "gimmick" picks. I'd like to see the arcade and console players united under an expansion that will share all the characters so we don't get this silly rivalry in the future.
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EPT
