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United States22883 Posts
On June 22 2009 01:46 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 01:23 Ace wrote:T-Mac to me was never dominant  I still think even if healthy next year he will be pretty bad compared to his former self. It's hard to argue that TMac wasn't dominant back in his Orlando days when he was basically a one-man team. 32.1 ppg at 45.7 FG%, 2.3 3PTM at 38.6 3P%, and 7.7 FTM at 79.3 FT%, while producing 6.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.7 spg and 0.8 bpg? That's pretty dominant to me. He's loooooooooong past those days, but you have to at least recognize that he was crazy good when he was healthy and in his prime.
But none of those teams were actually good, and the East was terrible back then. He put up great numbers but he could never actually control a game. I look at it like this. When a dominant player puts up big numbers, you overwhelmingly expect their team to win. Mcgrady's teams are like 50/50 when he puts up 40+. That's crazy. Plus none of us have forgotten that playoff series against the Pistons, when Tayshaun made him a shooting disaster.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 22 2009 02:37 Jibba wrote:But none of those teams were actually good, and the East was terrible back then. He put up great numbers but he could never actually control a game. I look at it like this. When a dominant player puts up big numbers, you overwhelmingly expect their team to win. Mcgrady's teams are like 50/50 when he puts up 40+. That's crazy. Plus none of us have forgotten that playoff series against the Pistons, when Tayshaun made him a shooting disaster.
Shawn Kemp
Pat Garrity
Gordan Giricek
Jacque Vaughn
Andrew DeClercq
Pat Burke
Drew Gooden
Jeryl Sasser
Darrell Armstrong
Horace Grant
Steven Hunter
Olumide Oyedeji
Grant Hill
Chris Whitney
Look at that supporting cast he had on his 02-03 roster. The only players worth mentioning are Kemp (has-been by that time), Hill (injured), and Gooden. Giricek was the third leading scorer on the team (ouch). There is definitely the whole "putting up great stats on a crappy team" but not many players are capable of those kinds of stats even when they're the only good player on a team, and not many could lead that group into the playoffs of even a weak conference.
While accolades aren't the best indicator of a player's dominance, we can't ignore the fact that he is a 7-time Allstar, was selected All-NBA 7 times, and won the scoring title in two consecutive seasons (the first time being the youngest player to ever do so since the NBA/ABA merger). One need only look back at the infamous TMac vs. Spurs 13-points-in-35-seconds highlight to remember that when TMac was on, he was one of the most unstoppable players on offense in the NBA.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I find it surprising that people deny the fact that McGrady is a true playoff performer. Stats wise, it's harder to find many who average more than 28.5 ppg, 6.9 rpg, and 6.2 apg lifetime during the playoffs on 43% shooting. That puts him 5th all time in PPG during the playoffs.
If you wanna argue that he's inefficient, stops the ball, whatever, then you can take a look at his PER (Player Efficiency Rating). Once again, he's rated at 7th all time in the playoffs, ahead of players like Dirk, Wade, and even Kobe.
Just a year ago, he was putting up 27.0, 8.2, 6.8 on Utah with a poor supporting cast in Houston minus Yao. For a guy who's played with generally awful supporting casts, he gets bashed way too much for how well he plays during the playoffs.
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United States10774 Posts
lamar and trevor love fest in LA pleaseeeee
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I'm gonna get back to this T-Mac argument but two things I want to point out:
PER is a bs stat. It's hard to use it to compare players no matter what Hollinger says.
Also the reason T-Mac never seemed dominant is because he was never known for making his team better. He was the prime definition of all offense, decent defense and no team play ability. He wasn't dominant - he was just very good.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
It's hard to make a team full of scrubs any good, like back in his Orlando days. Especially when you're outmatched and outnumbered, it was pretty impressive that he even got to 7 games with that roster.
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well of course, but you could say the same for Lebron last year - would you call him dominant?
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Tmac before the injuries was a premier perimeter defender. His defense slipped a little bit in ORL since he had such a huge offensive burden but during his years in toronto, he was arguably one of the league's premier defenders. He was a premier ball shot blocker for a wing man and he was deadly in the passing lanes picking up passes. He was so young that his man on man defense could have benefited from a little more experience and savvy, but it was still elite nonetheless due to his quickness, length and size.
Basketball is a team game and while there maybe players with premier individual games that lack a team concept and as such have limited value, it is extremely unfair to solely judge an individual player his team's record. T-mac had zero supporting cast in ORL. I saw many games during T-mac's ORL days and his defense and passing/playmaking were both excellent.
It is unfair to compare Tmac to a player like AI since Tmac's defense and passing/playmaking were superior. The way I see it, Tmac was a bonafide superstar and Grant Hill's injury relegated him to playing on a horrible team and the best that any individual player can do with that surrounding cast is mediocrity. It's a shame that by the time he got teamed up with Yao, injuries already took their toll and he was no longer the same player.
People don't see Tmac as a playoff performer because his team's records in the playoffs have been downright atrocious. But people also happen to merge his weaknesses together. Tmac was a great player on a horrible team and then with the rockets, he was a hobbled shell of his former self on a decent team. When you look at the overall picture, its easy to look at it as Tmac a player that put up sick numbers and had such skills who also played with Yao has never won a single playoff series, but that is merging pieces of two different eras together.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I still think that while Tmac has lost some of his explosiveness, he can still put up numbers, as witnessed through the last few playoff series he's had against Utah. Might not be as gaudy as those he put up with Orlando, but 26/8/7 is nothing to scoff at. At 6-9, he's in the same mold as Lebron, able to see clear over passing lanes, which is why he's still a pretty good playmaker.
But injuries have clouded his game, and it's hard to know what to expect from him again. But I do think that he still has the talent to put up great numbers, as he's still relatively young. We'll just see when the season starts up again.
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TMac was never an elite defender, he is an offensive juggernaut. He's like a poor man's LeBron if that makes sense. LeBron got to the finals with trash bags for a supporting cast (in a shitty eastern conference), and he almost got there this year with a fairly bad supporting cast (+66 wins). TMac couldn't do the same with a bad supporting cast, and he couldn't even do the same with an amazing supporting cast.
Plus he's been injury prone and his "prime" came MUCH quicker than most players. Most players hit their prime when they're about 28-31... when their skills are reaching their zenith and their athleticism has yet to really decline. TMac hit his prime about 4 years early and has dropped off much faster than most people. Perhaps due to injuries, but perhaps just because he was never meant to be one of the greatest. He's like a supernova. A brief flash but then nothing.
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I wish Vince Carter would go to a winning team. I still love VC.
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Oh, and Nash has always been a consistent player and I think he has a handful of good years left in him yet.
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VC blows, he's just super talented with little actual skill and no heart. Now that he's 30 he's FINALLY started to mature.
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On June 22 2009 07:35 Xeris wrote:
TMac was never an elite defender, he is an offensive juggernaut. He's like a poor man's LeBron if that makes sense. LeBron got to the finals with trash bags for a supporting cast (in a shitty eastern conference), and he almost got there this year with a fairly bad supporting cast (+66 wins). TMac couldn't do the same with a bad supporting cast, and he couldn't even do the same with an amazing supporting cast.
Plus he's been injury prone and his "prime" came MUCH quicker than most players. Most players hit their prime when they're about 28-31... when their skills are reaching their zenith and their athleticism has yet to really decline. TMac hit his prime about 4 years early and has dropped off much faster than most people. Perhaps due to injuries, but perhaps just because he was never meant to be one of the greatest. He's like a supernova. A brief flash but then nothing.
Tmac before his injury and especially in toronto when he didn't have to carry the team offensively was definitely an elite defender. He would always guard the other team's best wing player while vince got to take it easy and focus on scoring and would frequently shut them down. Im too lazy to look it up right now but he was also probably among the league leaders in steals and blocks among perimeter players.
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On June 22 2009 07:09 Roffles wrote:
I still think that while Tmac has lost some of his explosiveness, he can still put up numbers, as witnessed through the last few playoff series he's had against Utah. Might not be as gaudy as those he put up with Orlando, but 26/8/7 is nothing to scoff at. At 6-9, he's in the same mold as Lebron, able to see clear over passing lanes, which is why he's still a pretty good playmaker.
But injuries have clouded his game, and it's hard to know what to expect from him again. But I do think that he still has the talent to put up great numbers, as he's still relatively young. We'll just see when the season starts up again.
Although I regard Tmac highly during his prime, I think his body is finished and he'll never be much more than a role player for the rest of his career.
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On June 22 2009 08:04 Xeris wrote:
VC blows, he's just super talented with little actual skill and no heart. Now that he's 30 he's FINALLY started to mature.
What the fuck?
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United States22883 Posts
On June 22 2009 07:35 Xeris wrote:
TMac was never an elite defender, he is an offensive juggernaut. He's like a poor man's LeBron if that makes sense. LeBron got to the finals with trash bags for a supporting cast (in a shitty eastern conference), and he almost got there this year with a fairly bad supporting cast (+66 wins). TMac couldn't do the same with a bad supporting cast, and he couldn't even do the same with an amazing supporting cast.
Plus he's been injury prone and his "prime" came MUCH quicker than most players. Most players hit their prime when they're about 28-31... when their skills are reaching their zenith and their athleticism has yet to really decline. TMac hit his prime about 4 years early and has dropped off much faster than most people. Perhaps due to injuries, but perhaps just because he was never meant to be one of the greatest. He's like a supernova. A brief flash but then nothing. This, And the East Lebron's facing, as weak as it is, is leaps and bounds above the East in 2002-2003. Plus, despite what the roster looks like, the Magic's players weren't as weak (relatively) as people make them out to be. They were 41-41 the year before Mcgrady signed, mostly carried by Darryl Armstrong.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On June 22 2009 09:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 07:35 Xeris wrote:
TMac was never an elite defender, he is an offensive juggernaut. He's like a poor man's LeBron if that makes sense. LeBron got to the finals with trash bags for a supporting cast (in a shitty eastern conference), and he almost got there this year with a fairly bad supporting cast (+66 wins). TMac couldn't do the same with a bad supporting cast, and he couldn't even do the same with an amazing supporting cast.
Plus he's been injury prone and his "prime" came MUCH quicker than most players. Most players hit their prime when they're about 28-31... when their skills are reaching their zenith and their athleticism has yet to really decline. TMac hit his prime about 4 years early and has dropped off much faster than most people. Perhaps due to injuries, but perhaps just because he was never meant to be one of the greatest. He's like a supernova. A brief flash but then nothing. This, And the East Lebron's facing, as weak as it is, is leaps and bounds above the East in 2002-2003. Plus, despite what the roster looks like, the Magic's players weren't as weak (relatively) as people make them out to be. They were 41-41 the year before Mcgrady signed, mostly carried by Darryl Armstrong.
Dunno, but the Pistons with Billups, Hamilton, Wallace, and Prince were pretty formidable back then. And that's what McGrady had to face in the first round as an 8 seed.
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United States22883 Posts
You're kidding, right?
That was the first year they had been together and they were absolutely no comparison to the West. They were formidable in the East, where Z was the best big man at 17/7. 36yo Cliff Robinson played a pivotal role on that team. BTW, Prince barely played that season. He made his name in games 4-7 of that series by making Mcgrady his bitch.
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Couple points here:
There is no question Lebron is already better than Tmac ever was and that really is not a debate. However, Lebron over the past couple years had a better surrounding cast that Tmac did in his Orlando days. Z is a big man that can shoot and stretch the defense, Mo Williams, despite his struggles in the Orlando series is a competent point that has an excellent shot to spread the defense. Varajao is a good piece to a team, defense and boards and West is also a decent complementary player. Tmac's Orlando team was really bad. One dimensional shooters that can't play D like Mike Miller, Pat Garrity or Giricek, over the hill slow bigs like kemp or horace grant, point guards that couldn't shoot like vaughn or armstrong. Jibba points out that they went 41-41 the year before. That was considered a miracle and Doc Rivers won Coach of the Year as a result. Also, the MVP of that season, Ben Wallace was traded in the deal for Grant Hill and because of Hill's ankle injury, Tmac had neither's help.
Lebron winning 66 games with his team is amazing and a testament to his abilities. But his squad was definitely better than Tmacs so you can't knock Tmac for not winning 66 games with that team cuz even Jordan wouldn't have been able to do that.
And seriously, I wish there were tape of Toronto games back in 99 that y'all can see cuz Tmac was a defensive beast back then.
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EPT
