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On April 20 2010 21:43 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 09:46 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 09:36 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So guys, I just want a word of clarification here. Why is it bad mannered to kill a tower when no creeps are around?
If your team has no TP/posthaste/ANYTHING to get over there, then oh well you failed, why is it such a big deal?
This is mostly for HoN too, DOTA is beyond me. cause hon/dota communities are a bunch of whiners and are too lazy to think about the game so instead they ban anything they deem overpowered. i can only imagine what games like gunz would've been if they banned "overpowered" strats without actually taking the time to play with them and figure them out. out of curiosity to all the nobd supporters: why haven't the devs fixed it if it's oh so bad? You're implying the devs understand the games at a deep level, I am sure you can come up with many instances where that clearly isn't the case for either HoN/DotA
the problem with this argument is that it's not applicable here. everyone and their mother whines about backdoor, from first time pubbers to league games. so clearly understanding the game isn't a pre-requisite for whining about backdoor. likewise it isn't a pre-requisite for fixing it.
and from a fix point of view, it's obviously trivial to fix, just give the creeps an aura in lane and when a creep enters a base, the whole base is flagged. pretty sure coding-wise this is easier than the whole invulnerability chain system/preventing tp spells/etc they have in place right now.
same thing for multiple arcanes, multiple sheeps, and whatever else the dota/hon community has decided to ban. multiple necrobooks was it?
bottom line, the cycle for a game that's patch-capable should not be:
-someone thinks of an idea
-uses it for a bit
-people think it's OP
-people ban it
-it's never patched
it should always go something like
-someone thinks of an idea
-uses it for a bit
-people think it's OP
-everyone uses it
now it branches into two parts
good game:
-people find a counter or more OP strat and the cycle repeats
bad game:
-can't find a counter
-strategy becomes dominant
-strategy is patched (optional)
nobd stance is stupid. if it's so imba, abuse the fuck out of it and get the devs to fix it. that's how it should go.
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On April 20 2010 22:32 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 21:43 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 09:46 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 09:36 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So guys, I just want a word of clarification here. Why is it bad mannered to kill a tower when no creeps are around?
If your team has no TP/posthaste/ANYTHING to get over there, then oh well you failed, why is it such a big deal?
This is mostly for HoN too, DOTA is beyond me. cause hon/dota communities are a bunch of whiners and are too lazy to think about the game so instead they ban anything they deem overpowered. i can only imagine what games like gunz would've been if they banned "overpowered" strats without actually taking the time to play with them and figure them out. out of curiosity to all the nobd supporters: why haven't the devs fixed it if it's oh so bad? You're implying the devs understand the games at a deep level, I am sure you can come up with many instances where that clearly isn't the case for either HoN/DotA the problem with this argument is that it's not applicable here. everyone and their mother whines about backdoor, from first time pubbers to league games. so clearly understanding the game isn't a pre-requisite for whining about backdoor. likewise it isn't a pre-requisite for fixing it. and from a fix point of view, it's obviously trivial to fix, just give the creeps an aura in lane and when a creep enters a base, the whole base is flagged. pretty sure coding-wise this is easier than the whole invulnerability chain system/preventing tp spells/etc they have in place right now. same thing for multiple arcanes, multiple sheeps, and whatever else the dota/hon community has decided to ban. multiple necrobooks was it? bottom line, the cycle for a game that's patch-capable should not be: -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -people ban it -it's never patched it should always go something like -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -everyone uses it now it branches into two parts good game: -people find a counter or more OP strat and the cycle repeats bad game: -can't find a counter -strategy becomes dominant -strategy is patched (optional) nobd stance is stupid. if it's so imba, abuse the fuck out of it and get the devs to fix it. that's how it should go.
Icefrog did implement a lot of things to explicitly prevent BD-ing, including the new tower healing without creeps (you need a LOT of damage and attack speed to take down towers now). What version did you last play?
Think you're also missing the point that DotA (not sure for HoN) is mostly community driven, and I have stated to Icefrog multiple times that how he handles the community feedback is pretty inadequate given the volume. 90% of the community is sheep, that's evident in any community including SC/BW. People just happens to be whining about one where there is a reason to whine about, because BD isn't fair and pinning responsibility on devs isn't that applicable here.
I am not really sure what you mean by your "fix" and TP delay is to speed up the game.
If you don't understand why Mekas, Refresher (this one is the only one that is dated), Necrobooks, Guinsoos are restricted, then you never really played high level during the times they weren't. It wasn't fun and it certainly wasn't because of skill. Much like how Blink Dagger took "skill" when the other team didn't have a Sheep or Blink Dagger, 2150 gold gave you a lot of advantage that can easily turn into more advantage that should never be the case at that gold amount.
The thing that you hinted as a problem is that the community and the devs doesn't always do a good job (rarely) of understanding the hero-items interaction which was why Icefrog was having such a hard time balancing some things.
The cycle you described does not help in the long run because you are stuck in a cycle of ever "better" items/skills/heroes, and not as strategies as you would like to think, because where do you go to counter 5 Mekas + a Chen? (coL didn't counter and couldn't counter even with AoE).
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On April 20 2010 14:51 paper wrote:
nah i was opened up firefox and it perfectly fit haha
and it's badwater :S
obv a sign
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On April 21 2010 00:56 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 22:32 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 21:43 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 09:46 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 09:36 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So guys, I just want a word of clarification here. Why is it bad mannered to kill a tower when no creeps are around?
If your team has no TP/posthaste/ANYTHING to get over there, then oh well you failed, why is it such a big deal?
This is mostly for HoN too, DOTA is beyond me. cause hon/dota communities are a bunch of whiners and are too lazy to think about the game so instead they ban anything they deem overpowered. i can only imagine what games like gunz would've been if they banned "overpowered" strats without actually taking the time to play with them and figure them out. out of curiosity to all the nobd supporters: why haven't the devs fixed it if it's oh so bad? You're implying the devs understand the games at a deep level, I am sure you can come up with many instances where that clearly isn't the case for either HoN/DotA the problem with this argument is that it's not applicable here. everyone and their mother whines about backdoor, from first time pubbers to league games. so clearly understanding the game isn't a pre-requisite for whining about backdoor. likewise it isn't a pre-requisite for fixing it. and from a fix point of view, it's obviously trivial to fix, just give the creeps an aura in lane and when a creep enters a base, the whole base is flagged. pretty sure coding-wise this is easier than the whole invulnerability chain system/preventing tp spells/etc they have in place right now. same thing for multiple arcanes, multiple sheeps, and whatever else the dota/hon community has decided to ban. multiple necrobooks was it? bottom line, the cycle for a game that's patch-capable should not be: -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -people ban it -it's never patched it should always go something like -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -everyone uses it now it branches into two parts good game: -people find a counter or more OP strat and the cycle repeats bad game: -can't find a counter -strategy becomes dominant -strategy is patched (optional) nobd stance is stupid. if it's so imba, abuse the fuck out of it and get the devs to fix it. that's how it should go. Icefrog did implement a lot of things to explicitly prevent BD-ing, including the new tower healing without creeps (you need a LOT of damage and attack speed to take down towers now). What version did you last play? Think you're also missing the point that DotA (not sure for HoN) is mostly community driven, and I have stated to Icefrog multiple times that how he handles the community feedback is pretty inadequate given the volume. 90% of the community is sheep, that's evident in any community including SC/BW. People just happens to be whining about one where there is a reason to whine about, because BD isn't fair and pinning responsibility on devs isn't that applicable here. I am not really sure what you mean by your "fix" and TP delay is to speed up the game. If you don't understand why Mekas, Refresher (this one is the only one that is dated), Necrobooks, Guinsoos are restricted, then you never really played high level during the times they weren't. It wasn't fun and it certainly wasn't because of skill. Much like how Blink Dagger took "skill" when the other team didn't have a Sheep or Blink Dagger, 2150 gold gave you a lot of advantage that can easily turn into more advantage that should never be the case at that gold amount. The thing that you hinted as a problem is that the community and the devs doesn't always do a good job (rarely) of understanding the hero-items interaction which was why Icefrog was having such a hard time balancing some things. The cycle you described does not help in the long run because you are stuck in a cycle of ever "better" items/skills/heroes, and not as strategies as you would like to think, because where do you go to counter 5 Mekas + a Chen? (coL didn't counter and couldn't counter even with AoE).
clearly if people are still bitching about BDing, icefrog's steps in the direction hold no value in preventing BDing. my fix paragraph was just that -- it's so simple to actually fix, why hasn't it been? instead, much more complicated steps are taken to make BDing harder but not impossible. maybe icefrog is sending the players a message? >.>
the cycle i listed is the optimal cycle for every game. if you cannot find a counter to 5 mekas + chen in dota, and it becomes the dominant strategy, then dota is a bad game. if it were unpatchable (like a typical console game) then the game would die. lucky for us, dota has patches rolling in like chocolate rain, so if it were truly unbeatable, it can be patched because the devs don't want their game to die. until that happens though, players should be either a) abusing the fuck out of it or b) trying to find a counter. banning it isn't part of the agenda.
also, are you seriously telling me based off of one series of games of one team's response that 5 mekas + chen is unbeatable? that's such a shortsighted view i don't know what to say. if it becomes a dominant strategy over a period of several months, you have a point.
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On April 21 2010 03:39 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 00:56 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 22:32 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 21:43 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 09:46 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 09:36 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So guys, I just want a word of clarification here. Why is it bad mannered to kill a tower when no creeps are around?
If your team has no TP/posthaste/ANYTHING to get over there, then oh well you failed, why is it such a big deal?
This is mostly for HoN too, DOTA is beyond me. cause hon/dota communities are a bunch of whiners and are too lazy to think about the game so instead they ban anything they deem overpowered. i can only imagine what games like gunz would've been if they banned "overpowered" strats without actually taking the time to play with them and figure them out. out of curiosity to all the nobd supporters: why haven't the devs fixed it if it's oh so bad? You're implying the devs understand the games at a deep level, I am sure you can come up with many instances where that clearly isn't the case for either HoN/DotA the problem with this argument is that it's not applicable here. everyone and their mother whines about backdoor, from first time pubbers to league games. so clearly understanding the game isn't a pre-requisite for whining about backdoor. likewise it isn't a pre-requisite for fixing it. and from a fix point of view, it's obviously trivial to fix, just give the creeps an aura in lane and when a creep enters a base, the whole base is flagged. pretty sure coding-wise this is easier than the whole invulnerability chain system/preventing tp spells/etc they have in place right now. same thing for multiple arcanes, multiple sheeps, and whatever else the dota/hon community has decided to ban. multiple necrobooks was it? bottom line, the cycle for a game that's patch-capable should not be: -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -people ban it -it's never patched it should always go something like -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -everyone uses it now it branches into two parts good game: -people find a counter or more OP strat and the cycle repeats bad game: -can't find a counter -strategy becomes dominant -strategy is patched (optional) nobd stance is stupid. if it's so imba, abuse the fuck out of it and get the devs to fix it. that's how it should go. Icefrog did implement a lot of things to explicitly prevent BD-ing, including the new tower healing without creeps (you need a LOT of damage and attack speed to take down towers now). What version did you last play? Think you're also missing the point that DotA (not sure for HoN) is mostly community driven, and I have stated to Icefrog multiple times that how he handles the community feedback is pretty inadequate given the volume. 90% of the community is sheep, that's evident in any community including SC/BW. People just happens to be whining about one where there is a reason to whine about, because BD isn't fair and pinning responsibility on devs isn't that applicable here. I am not really sure what you mean by your "fix" and TP delay is to speed up the game. If you don't understand why Mekas, Refresher (this one is the only one that is dated), Necrobooks, Guinsoos are restricted, then you never really played high level during the times they weren't. It wasn't fun and it certainly wasn't because of skill. Much like how Blink Dagger took "skill" when the other team didn't have a Sheep or Blink Dagger, 2150 gold gave you a lot of advantage that can easily turn into more advantage that should never be the case at that gold amount. The thing that you hinted as a problem is that the community and the devs doesn't always do a good job (rarely) of understanding the hero-items interaction which was why Icefrog was having such a hard time balancing some things. The cycle you described does not help in the long run because you are stuck in a cycle of ever "better" items/skills/heroes, and not as strategies as you would like to think, because where do you go to counter 5 Mekas + a Chen? (coL didn't counter and couldn't counter even with AoE). clearly if people are still bitching about BDing, icefrog's steps in the direction hold no value in preventing BDing. my fix paragraph was just that -- it's so simple to actually fix, why hasn't it been? instead, much more complicated steps are taken to make BDing harder but not impossible. maybe icefrog is sending the players a message? >.> the cycle i listed is the optimal cycle for every game. if you cannot find a counter to 5 mekas + chen in dota, and it becomes the dominant strategy, then dota is a bad game. if it were unpatchable (like a typical console game) then the game would die. lucky for us, dota has patches rolling in like chocolate rain, so if it were truly unbeatable, it can be patched because the devs don't want their game to die. until that happens though, players should be either a) abusing the fuck out of it or b) trying to find a counter. banning it isn't part of the agenda. also, are you seriously telling me based off of one series of games of one team's response that 5 mekas + chen is unbeatable? that's such a shortsighted view i don't know what to say. if it becomes a dominant strategy over a period of several months, you have a point.
You both mad ze?
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On April 20 2010 08:30 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 08:22 L wrote:On April 20 2010 08:16 paper wrote:
Q: Did we just witness a genuine post by L?
[x] Small sample size in argument.
[x] Gross exaggeration with everything.
[x] Condescending/belittling attitude and insults after a neutral opinion.
[x] Retarded/nonsensical follow-up after this post.
A resounding... Yes! Did we just witness a genuine post by paper? [x] Fucking retarded. A resounding... Yes! u still mad i'm better than you at sc2?
You're horrendously bad.
But yeah, keep thinking marauders are good vs lings.
also, are you seriously telling me based off of one series of games of one team's response that 5 mekas + chen is unbeatable? that's such a shortsighted view i don't know what to say. if it becomes a dominant strategy over a period of several months, you have a point. Uh. the 5 mek + chen, 5 necrobook push, mass AR fast push, were all dominant for months. Hence why the item combinations were banned; every game became a question of who could get their necrobooks or meks up faster because you simply couldn't stop that shit.
Mek was patched to not overlap. AR was never changed. Necrobook now has a limited stock. Blink was repeatedly nerfed. Etc.
These weren't 1 series strategies. They literally became the game because they raped their counters.
I guess you think ST2 was a terrible game because you could pick akuma, but since he's banned in all tournaments the game continued to have a vibrant competitive scene. There are so many examples of a community self-policing their game that its unreal you'd assume the developer-centric method of game content delivery is the end-all and be-all. You might as well say BW should have died because their ladder was shit and that third parties shouldn't have stepped up to fix the issue.
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that ladder analogy is terrible
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
Oh my god.
- Life Steal items, except for Abyssal Skull, are now exclusive attack modifiers (will not stack with Frostburn, Frostwolf's Skull, etc)
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On April 21 2010 05:29 ahswtini wrote:Oh my god. Show nested quote +- Life Steal items, except for Abyssal Skull, are now exclusive attack modifiers (will not stack with Frostburn, Frostwolf's Skull, etc)
WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. THIS IS MADNESS
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On April 21 2010 05:31 Elegance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 05:29 ahswtini wrote:Oh my god. - Life Steal items, except for Abyssal Skull, are now exclusive attack modifiers (will not stack with Frostburn, Frostwolf's Skull, etc) WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. THIS IS MADNESS
Wait, is this real? This will suuuuuuuurely increase the use of Abyssal Skull.
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On April 21 2010 05:31 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 05:31 Elegance wrote:On April 21 2010 05:29 ahswtini wrote:Oh my god. - Life Steal items, except for Abyssal Skull, are now exclusive attack modifiers (will not stack with Frostburn, Frostwolf's Skull, etc) WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. THIS IS MADNESS Wait, is this real? This will suuuuuuuurely increase the use of Abyssal Skull.
Abyssal Skull = HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
No, I hope it means S2 just realized how imba stacking attack modifiers/orbs is.
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On April 21 2010 05:31 Elegance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 05:29 ahswtini wrote:Oh my god. - Life Steal items, except for Abyssal Skull, are now exclusive attack modifiers (will not stack with Frostburn, Frostwolf's Skull, etc) WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.. THIS IS MADNESS
Abyssal Skull = Vladimir's?
So this just changed it to be like DotA already is? (lifesteal being an orb effect)
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Finally. Orb stacking was so dumb T_T
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On April 21 2010 03:39 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2010 00:56 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 22:32 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 21:43 Judicator wrote:On April 20 2010 09:46 JeeJee wrote:On April 20 2010 09:36 N3rV[Green] wrote:
So guys, I just want a word of clarification here. Why is it bad mannered to kill a tower when no creeps are around?
If your team has no TP/posthaste/ANYTHING to get over there, then oh well you failed, why is it such a big deal?
This is mostly for HoN too, DOTA is beyond me. cause hon/dota communities are a bunch of whiners and are too lazy to think about the game so instead they ban anything they deem overpowered. i can only imagine what games like gunz would've been if they banned "overpowered" strats without actually taking the time to play with them and figure them out. out of curiosity to all the nobd supporters: why haven't the devs fixed it if it's oh so bad? You're implying the devs understand the games at a deep level, I am sure you can come up with many instances where that clearly isn't the case for either HoN/DotA the problem with this argument is that it's not applicable here. everyone and their mother whines about backdoor, from first time pubbers to league games. so clearly understanding the game isn't a pre-requisite for whining about backdoor. likewise it isn't a pre-requisite for fixing it. and from a fix point of view, it's obviously trivial to fix, just give the creeps an aura in lane and when a creep enters a base, the whole base is flagged. pretty sure coding-wise this is easier than the whole invulnerability chain system/preventing tp spells/etc they have in place right now. same thing for multiple arcanes, multiple sheeps, and whatever else the dota/hon community has decided to ban. multiple necrobooks was it? bottom line, the cycle for a game that's patch-capable should not be: -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -people ban it -it's never patched it should always go something like -someone thinks of an idea -uses it for a bit -people think it's OP -everyone uses it now it branches into two parts good game: -people find a counter or more OP strat and the cycle repeats bad game: -can't find a counter -strategy becomes dominant -strategy is patched (optional) nobd stance is stupid. if it's so imba, abuse the fuck out of it and get the devs to fix it. that's how it should go. Icefrog did implement a lot of things to explicitly prevent BD-ing, including the new tower healing without creeps (you need a LOT of damage and attack speed to take down towers now). What version did you last play? Think you're also missing the point that DotA (not sure for HoN) is mostly community driven, and I have stated to Icefrog multiple times that how he handles the community feedback is pretty inadequate given the volume. 90% of the community is sheep, that's evident in any community including SC/BW. People just happens to be whining about one where there is a reason to whine about, because BD isn't fair and pinning responsibility on devs isn't that applicable here. I am not really sure what you mean by your "fix" and TP delay is to speed up the game. If you don't understand why Mekas, Refresher (this one is the only one that is dated), Necrobooks, Guinsoos are restricted, then you never really played high level during the times they weren't. It wasn't fun and it certainly wasn't because of skill. Much like how Blink Dagger took "skill" when the other team didn't have a Sheep or Blink Dagger, 2150 gold gave you a lot of advantage that can easily turn into more advantage that should never be the case at that gold amount. The thing that you hinted as a problem is that the community and the devs doesn't always do a good job (rarely) of understanding the hero-items interaction which was why Icefrog was having such a hard time balancing some things. The cycle you described does not help in the long run because you are stuck in a cycle of ever "better" items/skills/heroes, and not as strategies as you would like to think, because where do you go to counter 5 Mekas + a Chen? (coL didn't counter and couldn't counter even with AoE). clearly if people are still bitching about BDing, icefrog's steps in the direction hold no value in preventing BDing. my fix paragraph was just that -- it's so simple to actually fix, why hasn't it been? instead, much more complicated steps are taken to make BDing harder but not impossible. maybe icefrog is sending the players a message? >.> the cycle i listed is the optimal cycle for every game. if you cannot find a counter to 5 mekas + chen in dota, and it becomes the dominant strategy, then dota is a bad game. if it were unpatchable (like a typical console game) then the game would die. lucky for us, dota has patches rolling in like chocolate rain, so if it were truly unbeatable, it can be patched because the devs don't want their game to die. until that happens though, players should be either a) abusing the fuck out of it or b) trying to find a counter. banning it isn't part of the agenda. also, are you seriously telling me based off of one series of games of one team's response that 5 mekas + chen is unbeatable? that's such a shortsighted view i don't know what to say. if it becomes a dominant strategy over a period of several months, you have a point.
It is, because that shit was abused immediately after CAL-I Season 1 Finals when JMC dropped it on coL, then it was the de facto fuck you strategy in the game. It wasn't short sighted, it was plenty obvious when the best magic line up in the game for Scourge (Lich-Pugna-QoP, all pre-nerf) could not stop a 20 min Sentinel pushing strategy, then there's a problem. When a strategy becomes an arms race to see who get 1 or 2 items really cheap items first, then it's no longer a strategy. There's a difference between dominant strategy and determining strategy, when said strategy NEEDS to be used because if you don't use it and the opponent does, then you lose. It's a gimmick. Now if Meka was a tier 4 item, then we wouldn't be talking about this, if Blink was closer to 3k than to 2k, then it wouldn't matter in 43-48.
Case in point, there's a very cheap pull you can do with Scourge at bottom lane with very little drawback, it's simple, it's utterly unstoppable and puts Sentinel side at an extreme disadvantage in any circumstance, yet no one does it because it ruins the game.
If you want another analogy, it's like goal tending in basketball, no one would shoot jumpers any more if goal tending was allowed. In other words, no other strategies would come out if the current is too damn effective.
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I watched a few HoN games on HoN cast this week, and does anyone else think DotA and all it's successors are very bad spectator games?
In SC, most games would last maximum 20 minutes and they are generally exciting as hell for the amount of time you spend watching. In HoN, the first 10-20 minutes of the game are also really fun to watch, but after that, when the game lasts an hour, you might as well skip to the end, or watch a movie. Especially since most of the time, you can already tell who's gonna win by the 20th minute.
In SC, some games could last 5 minutes if a player goes for cheese. In HoN, when a team completely massacre another, the shortest I've seen is about 15 minutes.
Would HoN be a better game overal if the winning team had a chance to completely secure their win more quickly (without relying on the other team conceding?)
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On April 21 2010 08:28 lepape wrote:
I watched a few HoN games on HoN cast this week, and does anyone else think DotA and all it's successors are very bad spectator games?
In SC, most games would last maximum 20 minutes and they are generally exciting as hell for the amount of time you spend watching. In HoN, the first 10-20 minutes of the game are also really fun to watch, but after that, when the game lasts an hour, you might as well skip to the end, or watch a movie. Especially since most of the time, you can already tell who's gonna win by the 20th minute.
In SC, some games could last 5 minutes if a player goes for cheese. In HoN, when a team completely massacre another, the shortest I've seen is about 15 minutes.
Would HoN be a better game overal if the winning team had a chance to completely secure their win more quickly (without relying on the other team conceding?)
Spectator unfriendly for sure, it's immensely entertaining if you know what to look for, but unfortunately the vast majority of viewers and commentators don't have a clue.
Watching LightofHeaven drop some crazy cs with an Enigma will never get boring.
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I can't watch dota, I only play casually. I don't have any experience with HoN/LoL.
I don't know about competitive games, but there's plenty of pub dota I've played where we were way behind early on and managed to turn things around. The winner wasn't immediately obvious.
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I played a game today...2 of us killed plaguuuuuu on HIS SIDE of the river in mid lane. I am hammer.
I come from...BEHIND him(ya know from that little ramp outa the river) and he says, and I am serious,
"My god you guys can even kill without BDing for it"
CAN YOU EVEN FUCKING BD A GANK
HOLY FUCKING SHIT ARE PEOPLE REALLY THIS STUPID.
also, on a side note since the rant just started flowing. If any of you EVER see somebody pick in the first 10 seconds, and then REPICK, and then pick THE SAME HERO....leave, just leave. those people......after seeing a few can only be one of two things.
A:Mentally retarded people, helmet and all, clicking on all the shiny stuff.
B: People that just want you to suffer and enjoy the pain caused by feeding endless while telling the team you're trying sooo hard to learn.
I tell these people to uninstall after the leave the game.
Were people in DOTA this stupid too? like...REALLY, I thought I'd seen some stupid people in sc.....this is a whole new world.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
You can only kill a hero with creeps around you yo.
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On April 21 2010 08:28 lepape wrote:
I watched a few HoN games on HoN cast this week, and does anyone else think DotA and all it's successors are very bad spectator games?
In SC, most games would last maximum 20 minutes and they are generally exciting as hell for the amount of time you spend watching. In HoN, the first 10-20 minutes of the game are also really fun to watch, but after that, when the game lasts an hour, you might as well skip to the end, or watch a movie. Especially since most of the time, you can already tell who's gonna win by the 20th minute.
In SC, some games could last 5 minutes if a player goes for cheese. In HoN, when a team completely massacre another, the shortest I've seen is about 15 minutes.
Would HoN be a better game overal if the winning team had a chance to completely secure their win more quickly (without relying on the other team conceding?)
Ye, dota always had problems with being a spectator game, and ofc hon didn't try to address any of these issues. 
I really don't agree with games being over by 20 mins, maybe you just watched some bad examples. Ofc some games are, but a lot of games get turn arounds or are close by 20mins in.
Dotas/hons main problems for spectators are:
1. So many things going on early game. With potentially 3 lanes of people killing each other the commentators/spectators can never keep up.
2. Potentially very boring games: if everyone decides to farm it's very boring to watch and you can't do much about it atm. (see 6.64 Asian dota (or SMM))
3. Gotta have a lot of knowledge of the game to really enjoy watching it imo.
4. Games are very longgg.
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EPT
