EPTSpeaking of Smurfing we beat some 1700 smurfs with 3.5 k/d on two of their players last night. We ended up running Devourer mid against a Soulstealer which is normally a dev favoured matchup but our behe and me on Blacksmith kept lane and river wards up and just constantly roamed mid to gank. BS Stun to hold him in place-Hook-Hammer+Rot is easy kills, their SS ended up being 0-5 before the 10 minute mark and dev finished 2 kills short of an immortal. Always nice to ruin a smurfs K/D.
[HoN/DotA] Let's Play~!! - Page 1520
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wonderwall
New Zealand695 Posts
Speaking of Smurfing we beat some 1700 smurfs with 3.5 k/d on two of their players last night. We ended up running Devourer mid against a Soulstealer which is normally a dev favoured matchup but our behe and me on Blacksmith kept lane and river wards up and just constantly roamed mid to gank. BS Stun to hold him in place-Hook-Hammer+Rot is easy kills, their SS ended up being 0-5 before the 10 minute mark and dev finished 2 kills short of an immortal. Always nice to ruin a smurfs K/D. | ||
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AndyJay
Australia833 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:24 JeeJee wrote: On a side note, can anyone give me the priority list for dota tower ai? Hon towers made so much sense, I am never surprised by a chosen target, but in dota sometimes I don't understand what causes a tower to pick a particular target. Ditto for the attack-move command for heroes .. on more than one occasion, when I a-moved with a melee hero, or pressed 's', it didn't auto-target the closest creep to me, but walked up to the ranged creep (further away) for some reason. This is also frustrating. Priority list anyone? I've recently started playing Dota again after only playing HoN for years and I very much noticed this as well. It's very strange. It also reminded me of an awesome dota saying that I haven't seen in HoN "FKING RACIST TOWER" | ||
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Glull
Germany404 Posts
@jeejee: your google-fu is weak ( http://www.playdota.com/forums/257373/questions-about-tower-aggro/ ) | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17713 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:24 JeeJee wrote: On a side note, can anyone give me the priority list for dota tower ai? Hon towers made so much sense, I am never surprised by a chosen target, but in dota sometimes I don't understand what causes a tower to pick a particular target. Ditto for the attack-move command for heroes .. on more than one occasion, when I a-moved with a melee hero, or pressed 's', it didn't auto-target the closest creep to me, but walked up to the ranged creep (further away) for some reason. This is also frustrating. Priority list anyone? Towers have always been: 1. First sighted/make it into range, first attacked. 2. Unit attacking own hero overrides 1. and makes it to the top, forcing change of targets. The same goes for unit AI. I don't think there's anything more to it (but I'm probably wrong). As to the heroes, I wouldn't know. I never A-move in this game (just like I never right-click attack). Just keep RMB exclusively for movement and A+LMB for attack. Random things don't occure as often this way. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:41 lepape wrote: In terms of gameplay design, one player having to sacrifice some of his gold to buy a courier is one of those terrible designs that no one ever dared to question, simply because it's always been that way. Although I have play almost only ward bitches, even the concept of one player having to sacrifice himself just to buy wards all game is another atrocious concept, but there's no easy solution to it. I understand the competitive game has been balanced around supports starting with less gold, so that's the only aspect I can see anyone complaining about. But really, saying that giving each team the equivalent of 7% extra starting gold breaks the game, that's really trying to sound elitist. This. Just because i'ts been always like that doesn't mean it the right way. I believe the original idea was your team has to choose in the beginning of the game whether to get a chicken first, or use that 200g to do something better. But this idea got lost because the chicken is proved to be the most sufficient way to go in the beginning, and BOTH TEAMS spending 200g for something like that is kind of stupid. With the free courier, now the team will have to choose whether to use 200g to upgrade it to fly courier, or 200g to do something more useful. imo that adds another level of strategy in the beginning of the game instead of the mindless spending 200g for chicken. And I'm agree that the balance of the game in the beginning might be shifted, but it's up to the players to figure out what's imbalance, and the developer to patch it so it's balanced again. That's always how it works. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
 Buying item on a support is completely different from buying on a carry. The item system provides challenges to carry/support player and it is a very important part in the balance. If you think support is for noobs, carry is for good player, you are so wrong. Well cant blame people to think that because most pubbies play support in a wrong or half-ass way and people looking at that carry player DOUBLE kill, RAMPAGE and thinks that he won the game for the team. The carry's success IS a result of support's success. Nothing feels better than owning so hard as a support that your carry can farm for the first 25 mins of the game untouched, and then use that farm to finish the game handily. that said, i rarely see good carry player appreciates their support nowadays i miss my old clan. | ||
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Glull
Germany404 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On August 23 2011 08:51 Glull wrote: caring about kd is about as smart as comparing sc2 scorescreens @jeejee: your google-fu is weak ( http://www.playdota.com/forums/257373/questions-about-tower-aggro/ ) I'm testing it out, but that list is definitely wrong, since hp doesn't seem to matter. F.e. I had 3 targets F - full hp 587/587 ogre magi C - current target L - low hp 26/587 ogre magi Once current target stops being a target (via being dead or running out of range), the tower always picked the closest hero between F and L. That seemed to be confirmed by some other guy in that thread -- so I'll take the list as-is without any HP levels and try it out. Not quite sure how to spawn enemy heroes yet, but I worry that the clause "Note: It will attack whatever unit it is attacking until it dies/goes out of range before it changes target." is also wrong, because I seemingly remember a tower attacking a creep, and before that creep dies, it switches targets to a hero that's doing a tower dive on another hero. Maybe I was imagining it. Anyway I guess the TLDR is that I don't really have faith in that list, but I guess I can do my own testing. I was just hoping someone else did For those wondering "why bother" -- it's one less thing to worry about; it makes my game simpler. edit: I found a dota test map. this should be a breeze now. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
Consider this scenario: 2 identical targets A and B run up to a tower with an enemy hero E. A slightly in front of B. Naturally, tower targets A. So far so good. Now if A attacks the tower and B starts attacking the enemy hero, do you expect the tower to switch to B before A dies? Well, that depends. The closer B is to the tower, the faster the tower will switch. If the hero is right beside the tower, it switches almost immediately. If like 300 range away, it switched after 2-4 hits. In fact, sometimes if B is very close to A in distance-from-tower (obviously both are well within tower attack range), the tower will NEVER switch, even though it has 2 targets in its vicinity: one attacking a hero and one attacking a tower. The fuck... DOTA Y U NO MAKE SENSE | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Hope icefrog sticks with the same coding. Only complaint is that sentinel towers juke throwing rocks sometimes in war3, but that seems to be removed from watching the dota2 tournament. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
edit: in fact, I just created a scenario where 2 identical targets A and B are attacking an enemy hero E. For whatever reason, without changing ANYTHING, the tower alternated between A and B every 2 shots. All 3 heroes (A,B,E) were standing, A&B autoattacking E who was on hold position. Tower just bounced between A and B after 2 hits each. A was slightly further from the tower but closer to E. wtf is this >< You can't seriously tell me dota tower ai makes sense. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
There is no real way to test it by yourself, unless there is some special mechanic in your test map but here's what I ' know ': There is another factor that you aren't considering which is called threat. The reason I say you can't really test it yourself is that I *think* the result of giving 2 heroes under your control an attack command to an enemy hero is not the same as having 3 players controlling their own units in a game. To keep out all other variables the best way would be to have you as one hero hugging a tower as close as possible and two others [ both ranged or melee ] on the other team. Stack a bunch of hearts or whatever to make sure you don't die during testing. Consider the following: In a 1v1 hero battle with creeps in a lane, totally outside of tower ranges, you are able to pull enemy creeps toward you by issuing attack command on enemy hero WITHIN range and sight of enemy creeps and then immediately attacking something else or giving another command. [ I'm sure you know this, it works in hon too ] advanced tactic to last hit/deny/position etc.. If you attack a tower with your creeps fighting their creeps the tower will start hitting you once it kills the first creep it targeted. [ No enemy hero involved here ] If you are 1v1 within range of enemy tower and target the hero, the tower will immediately switch to you. Now at this point if you are near full hp and you give an attack command to a creep which is not in deny range, the tower will go back to attacking creeps. Also it would be interesting for you to test this: You are hugging tower full hp. One enemy hero is low, like around 10% hp [ high hp and regen, won't die from tower ] and the other hero is full hp. If you just move command the low hp hero across the battlefield as you and the other hero fight each other the tower will usually not switch targets from whatever it is attacking because that low enemy hero is giving no threat. So in conclusion my experience [ which may be wrong but shouldn't be that far from how it actually works ] -To get towers to stop hitting you if you have creeps, attack command your own high hp creep. [ this doesn't work if you are red hp, I don't know the exact % of hp I just know its when you are low....don't think I've seen this number anywhere ] -Towers will switch to whatever hero is closer and is also giving off the threat of attacking ally hero. -At the previous scenario, if you are low enough [ red hp ] the tower tends to keep focusing you even if you redirect your threat from enemy hero to full hp ally creep. Also if there are two heroes attacking you, one high hp and one low hp, the tower tends to focus the low hp hero regardless of distance. Those last 3 seem to be all you really need to know if you want to play competitive dota. Finally, its ok if you can explain to me in 3 lines how hon towers work. I don't really care, I'm not here to argue which is better...I'm just saying dota towers are complicated but also systematic. If you have knowledge of the last 3 points I just wrote out and know about global threat existing in the game for creeps then you hardly ever die wondering what happened. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
recently i've been playing a lot as ophelia and we start the game with a flying courier, 3 wards, and 2~3 counterwards split between me and another support (who still has 403 gold left over =\). it's honestly kind of ridiculous i don't know what you're supposed to do against that lol | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Sorry for the confusing terms and brackets. I'm sure that is hard to read. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
From my limited testing, all I found is that distance-from-tower plays a much much bigger role in dota than hon, such that the 'given' hierarchy of hero attacking hero > creeps attacking hero > closest unit attacking tower, etc. doesn't really work. It's kind of synthetic test situations but they left me more confused than ever to be honest. I think at this point I am just going to save replays of games where towers did something strange, and then re-watch to figure out what happened. I am mostly aware of the priorities you listed out in your post, but sometimes (not often), they don't seem to be followed. It's that 'sometimes' bit that I'm after. I'll figure it out eventually. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Out of curiosity does hon ignore threat or how does it differ from my last 3 points? | ||
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Gummy
United States2180 Posts
On August 23 2011 10:56 Ack1027 wrote: Sounds good ;P Out of curiosity does hon ignore threat or how does it differ from my last 3 points? Yes. HoN ignores threat. Towers are like stationary creeps in HoN. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17713 Posts
On August 23 2011 10:56 Ack1027 wrote: Sounds good ;P Out of curiosity does hon ignore threat or how does it differ from my last 3 points? I believe that in HoN towers generally prefer low hp targets (things they'll kill the fastest) but also moving towards/away from tower is taken into account (apart from standard hero focusing etc.). It is possible to save your low hp teammate trying to run away from tower by getting closer to it even with full hp to draw its attention. On a sidenote: Any and all tests won't be conclusive without knowing the mechanic between tower targeting cycles. How often does the tower check what it should attack? With every new unit entering its range? Whenever units within range change position? Whenever an attack/move command is issued? Every 2 shots? Every 3 seconds? This could be a pretty big factor. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On August 23 2011 10:56 Ack1027 wrote: Sounds good ;P Out of curiosity does hon ignore threat or how does it differ from my last 3 points? edit: i just wrote a long TLDR. basically it's here in 2 simple rules: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=75485 Rule 1: The tower will attack any hero that attacks an enemy hero.* *Spells don't count. This includes manually casting orbs (ie Vindicator's, Arachna's)! "Attacking" means "starting your autoattack animation". Rule 2: The tower will attack nearby units, with priority given to units attacking it, and then to units closest to it. Three things trigger a tower to check for new targets: Any unit attacks an ally hero in range; the current target dies or leaves the tower's range; a possible target enters the range of a tower which has no targets at the moment. | ||
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