EPTIt seems I'm not the only one not really inspired by D4
Diablo IV - Page 92
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
It seems I'm not the only one not really inspired by D4 | ||
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Archeon
3253 Posts
On July 03 2023 15:11 Amui wrote: I run 3 points innervation and puncture. Since you should run with combo points, you shouldn't really run out of energy unless you energy dump which is not ideal when running expectant and condemnation. Level 9 flurry has less damage than level 1 TB with no upgrades. Enhanced TB, and the orbiting legendary, and the cooldown reduction for imbuements probably results in like 4-5x damage for TB with less risk compared to flurry, which as a short ranged 360 AoE, heavily encourages you to jump into the middle of giant packs of monsters to maximize damage rather than skirting the edges. Not sure on the ranged builds, but I would have to regear to build swap since I have 140% to close at the moment. I have pretty good gear now (level 92), and my flurries cap at about 3M with 4 crits @750k each. Against bosses I've only seen up to about 800k or so. Highest I've pushed is 64, but definitely a lot more comfy running mid-50's still since my survivability hasn't gone up a lot. Less damage per mana or less damage per attack? Didn't know the difference was that big, expected flurry to have overall significantly more damage and probably dps with the added attackspeed considering that it has an actual cast time. With TB and traps I usually just put vulnerable on enemies, energy dump and then trap and energy dump again, which most of the time has very little break between twisting blade spams. | ||
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Ryzel
United States529 Posts
On July 03 2023 18:36 Manit0u wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZAgzr5XMqs It seems I'm not the only one not really inspired by D4 Eh, most of those are late game issues. He said himself he put 200+ hours into it and had a good time, which reflects my general experience as well. Campaign was really neat, leveling through that/playing with friends was fun, endgame seems pointless. If all you want is to play through the campaign at a leisurely pace with friends, definitely recommend. IMO you get your money’s worth, just not much more than that. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
On July 03 2023 23:25 Ryzel wrote: Eh, most of those are late game issues. He said himself he put 200+ hours into it and had a good time, which reflects my general experience as well. Campaign was really neat, leveling through that/playing with friends was fun, endgame seems pointless. If all you want is to play through the campaign at a leisurely pace with friends, definitely recommend. IMO you get your money’s worth, just not much more than that. Actually for me the problem is that the campaign itself is so boring that there's hardly any drive to finish it. In general most of the stuff in the game seems like a lot of pointless busywork (lilith statues, unlocking aspects, going through the campaign, doing the primary quests, farming renown) to set yourself up for the end game which according to most people isn't that great. Maybe it's just me (but I don't think so as I've seen other voice similar opinions) but the whole structure and pacing of the game seem off. In D2 going through the campaign didn't feel like a chore, you naturally progressed through the game and went on to do different areas to face new enemies etc. In D4 this whole open world and zone scaling doesn't really give you this sense of progression and a clear path forward. With all the running around and backtracking you have to do it's really slow and kinda feels like you're running in circles. The fact that pretty much all environments look the same and there's almost no enemy variety only makes the feeling of a lack of progression stronger. Personally I don't give a crap about the end game but even with that the base elements of the game for casual PvE experience simply aren't working. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On July 04 2023 00:36 Manit0u wrote: Actually for me the problem is that the campaign itself is so boring that there's hardly any drive to finish it. In general most of the stuff in the game seems like a lot of pointless busywork (lilith statues, unlocking aspects, going through the campaign, doing the primary quests, farming renown) to set yourself up for the end game which according to most people isn't that great. Maybe it's just me (but I don't think so as I've seen other voice similar opinions) but the whole structure and pacing of the game seem off. In D2 going through the campaign didn't feel like a chore, you naturally progressed through the game and went on to do different areas to face new enemies etc. In D4 this whole open world and zone scaling doesn't really give you this sense of progression and a clear path forward. With all the running around and backtracking you have to do it's really slow and kinda feels like you're running in circles. The fact that pretty much all environments look the same and there's almost no enemy variety only makes the feeling of a lack of progression stronger. Personally I don't give a crap about the end game but even with that the base elements of the game for casual PvE experience simply aren't working. Totally agree. I thought I would love the open world feel. I thought I could deal with level scaling because Oblivion was still an amazing game overall. But truth is the lack of progression zaps all my motivation to play for an extended amount of time. Ya combat is fun but I just don't feel I'm getting more powerful. I have nothing to look forward to. Really hope game is improved in a year or 2. But I'm scared that I will just never like it because of the level scaling unless itemization or questing is drastically improved. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
My biggest gripe is that there's no real sense of journey. In D1 you started by going through the church, moved on to catacombs which were claustrophobic, real dark and had a completely different set of enemies, then proceeded to the caves with lava rivers and, again, new set of monsters until finally venturing into hell which was eerily clean and neat. In D2 you started in this kinda standard setting but then moved on to the desert (with new enemies), jungle, hell, frozen peaks... Can't speak much for D3, I think there was some variety but they did something wrong as none of it is memorable. It's exactly the same problem I had with Skyrim. It doesn't matter if you have a huge world if wherever you go it's just more of the same. To contrast it with say Morrowind, where you had swamp towns, pyramid cities, mushroom cities, red mountain with ash storms and such. Landscape and enemy variety are typically key factors in giving a player a sense of progression through the world and story. If everything everywhere is the same this is lost. Not to mention all the drive for exploration is also gone if all you have to look up to as you go further is just more of the stuff you've already seen. | ||
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FaCE_1
Canada6172 Posts
The worst thing imo is that they say the are working in season and 2 new expension when the actual game have so many flaw and so many issues yet they don't actually work on them. (stash size, search in inventory, save your build to be able to start a new one (including paragon), the insane amount of CC, the buggiest mount i ever seen in my life that can't even go fast in town, etc.) Hoping that there is some progress in those soon (tm) | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
The campaign brings you from icy peaks to green grasslands/mountains to rocky steppes to a desert to swampland and back to the desert. If all of these biomes look the same to you, I think your memories of D2 and D3 are playing tricks on you. But the pacing is really off. If you know what you are doing (barely knowing like me works as well), T3 and T4 become easier than T1 in short order. Yeah, I'm more fragile and need to pay more attention but my kill speed is so much faster in the "higher" difficulties compared to the earlier ones. My ice shards sorc is only pushing tier 40+ NM dungeons. So many things 1-2 shot me but my kill speed still feels higher compared to going through the campaign in T2. And I didn't even put any points in glass cannon right now because of personal preference. My pen shot rogue alt is going through the same thing. I mostly skipped imprinting and upgrading going through T1. Mats aren't plentiful leveling up and you frequently replace gear anyway. I'm in T3, at half sacred gear right now that are imprinted and upgraded to 3/5, and the overworld is starting to feel like T1 in difficulty. | ||
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hgftdrfsesd
1 Post
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TaKeTV
Germany1199 Posts
On July 03 2023 18:36 Manit0u wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZAgzr5XMqs It seems I'm not the only one not really inspired by D4 Not sure if he is in any sort of form a valid person to consider as feedback for the general audience. He is just very hardcore and stuck in d2 | ||
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TaKeTV
Germany1199 Posts
On July 04 2023 00:36 Manit0u wrote: Actually for me the problem is that the campaign itself is so boring that there's hardly any drive to finish it. In general most of the stuff in the game seems like a lot of pointless busywork (lilith statues, unlocking aspects, going through the campaign, doing the primary quests, farming renown) to set yourself up for the end game which according to most people isn't that great. Picking up on this and would like to add on it as well. As far as campaign goes I personally felt that it had a good and interesting opening A1 but the pacing and A2-3-4 were pretty uninspiring. A5 picked up at least some pace and A6 was fantastic for me. Most annoying was the lack of buildup and simple throw in of bosses. Duriel completely wasted. Ashava in hell .. alright we are in hell but zero buildup or anything. Besides Andariel I believe there was more or less no interesting encounter at all until Lilith. In terms of "busywork" with altars etc. I actually do think exploration is a very fun part. What I dislike is that the altars are fundamentally important to character build and 2nd / 3rd characters. They have attribute points, paragon points etc. If it would simply be exploration and renown I feel like that wouldnt be half bad. Renown system needs a rework. i.e add a sidequest to a dungeon (when you start it) so you can get 50 renown immediately at any dungeon. Aspects from dungeons also need a rework IMO since in lategame there is absolutely zero reason to use the min-roll aspects. My take would be to have dungeons be able to drop aspects when completing that can roll their range. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8657 Posts
On July 04 2023 19:06 TaKeTV wrote: Not sure if he is in any sort of form a valid person to consider as feedback for the general audience. He is just very hardcore and stuck in d2 that seems a bit unfair. he obviously prefers d2 to d3 and d4 but hes clearly tried to be as unbiased as he can in all his review videos. otherwise he straight up admits his bias when he applies them. also seeing as i personally have similar tastes to him when it comes to diablo i valued his feedback pretty highly. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On July 04 2023 22:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: that seems a bit unfair. he obviously prefers d2 to d3 and d4 but hes clearly tried to be as unbiased as he can in all his review videos. otherwise he straight up admits his bias when he applies them. also seeing as i personally have the similar tastes to him when it comes to diablo i valued his feedback pretty highly. Yeah same. | ||
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uummpaa
238 Posts
On July 04 2023 22:52 evilfatsh1t wrote: that seems a bit unfair. he obviously prefers d2 to d3 and d4 but hes clearly tried to be as unbiased as he can in all his review videos. otherwise he straight up admits his bias when he applies them. also seeing as i personally have similar tastes to him when it comes to diablo i valued his feedback pretty highly. i mean his point still stands, for the wider player base reviews like that arent to helpful if you play D2 to this day regularly, then you either found your sweet spot gamedesign wise or you are fully immersed in nostalgia. or any mixture of both. either way you like the game, so any divergence of that is viewed very critical at that point. he might speak to people with similiar preferences (of which there a plenty so it definetly has its place), but thats it. just look at this thread, there are plenty of folks to write things like "d3/4 did that somehow worse" or "its not as natural as D2" without giving ANY real reasoning other then heavly nostalgia tainted views. which is a fine opinon to have, but sadly blizzard tried to make a game that has innovations as well as catering these types of players, which is kinda impossible in the first place and so we only ended up with a quite decent game, but nothing more. the only real risk they took was the open world with lvl scaling, and that doesnt seemed to go all to well with the majority of players as far as i can tell. which again wouldnt be to bad if there was more stuff to concentrate on instead. hate it all you want, D3 was bringing just as much fresh air to the genre as D2 did in its days. D4 doesnt do that, and thats its greatest failing imho. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
On July 05 2023 16:03 uummpaa wrote: just look at this thread, there are plenty of folks to write things like "d3/4 did that somehow worse" or "its not as natural as D2" without giving ANY real reasoning other then heavly nostalgia tainted views. hate it all you want, D3 was bringing just as much fresh air to the genre as D2 did in its days. D4 doesnt do that, and thats its greatest failing imho. I think the biggest complaint for the D2 crowd is the itemization, which is one thing D2 did extremely well since magic items of all rarities were valuable. It was a brilliant design really, magic items had the least affixes but they had the strongest versions of those affixes so you might still go with magic over rare or a set item just to get a higher bonus, it also made it more thrilling when item hunting because you didn't just ignore lower rarity items. D3 threw this out the window with all item focus being on sets giving you insane bonuses (I love the concept of set items but D3 went overboard with it) and D4 is basically all about the aspects and from what I've seen later in the game you pretty much disregard all lower rarities. I mean, just look at some of the guides/videos for D2, you can have the same build but with completely different items, giving you more choice and alternates. D2 definitely wasn't perfect, anyone who's played it for a bit will tell you that the stat system is far from being great (too much emphasis on vitality, energy being mostly useless etc.), runewords getting out of control and being too strong, thus ruining some of the brilliant itemization design, stamina, arrows/bolts and other mostly pointless stuff that's just annoying without adding much value to the game etc. | ||
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Miragee
8509 Posts
On July 05 2023 16:03 uummpaa wrote: i mean his point still stands, for the wider player base reviews like that arent to helpful if you play D2 to this day regularly, then you either found your sweet spot gamedesign wise or you are fully immersed in nostalgia. or any mixture of both. either way you like the game, so any divergence of that is viewed very critical at that point. he might speak to people with similiar preferences (of which there a plenty so it definetly has its place), but thats it. just look at this thread, there are plenty of folks to write things like "d3/4 did that somehow worse" or "its not as natural as D2" without giving ANY real reasoning other then heavly nostalgia tainted views. which is a fine opinon to have, but sadly blizzard tried to make a game that has innovations as well as catering these types of players, which is kinda impossible in the first place and so we only ended up with a quite decent game, but nothing more. the only real risk they took was the open world with lvl scaling, and that doesnt seemed to go all to well with the majority of players as far as i can tell. which again wouldnt be to bad if there was more stuff to concentrate on instead. hate it all you want, D3 was bringing just as much fresh air to the genre as D2 did in its days. D4 doesnt do that, and thats its greatest failing imho. I mean his point of view is probably valueable for his targeted audience (his viewers), which is considerably large and will likely mostly consist of people who either still play D2 or at least like D2 but don't play it anymore for whatever reason. I think it's pretty unfair to reduce everything to "nostalgia clouded opinions" when a lot of why those people like D2 are born from specific design choices, which were thrown out of the window by D3/D4. This is mainly how itemisation works imho, which was rather interesting in D2 (Manitou already explained it somewhat) and very uninteresting in D3/D4 because you are looking for the same things on all items and upgrades are just higher numbers of the same stats. It's the WoW formular, which I have always found boring. It has nothing to do with the Diablo franchise, really. On the topic of "diverging from D2 is seen critical" I also disagree. It's not that diverging in and of itself is bad. It's that good systems are abandoned for bad ones and people are using D2 as comparison because D3/D4 are sequels so D2 is the first thing they could compare it to. A lot of people who liked D2 like PoE for example (and a considerable amount who doesn't as well) and I would say PoE does diverge a lot from D2. It brought fresh air into the genre when D3 failed to do so. Can you explain how D3 brought fresh air into the genre other then sparking a bunch of other studios to create ARPGs for disappointed Diablo fans? | ||
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htfhgfrtz
1 Post
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
I think the worst thing is that most common problems people seem to have with D4 have been reported early on and there's no sign of them getting fixed (and it doesn't seem like they're huge issues that would be hard to fix, mostly just QOL stuff). Instead they're already announcing new seasons and expansions before the first season has even started... Reminds me a bit of Blood Bowl 3 release, where it also suffers from issues in core gameplay, they even delayed season 1 to address some of them (but plenty still remain) and some of the most requested fixes/changes won't be made until season 2 which is a bizarre way of doing things IMO. Oh well, probably gotta wait a year or two and it'll be a good game. | ||
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DocSchlakk
Austria172 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4544 Posts
Me personally I never understood the appeal of the gear treadmill, I'm a super casual who just enjoys the campaign and then doesn't play anymore. At least that's what happened with D3. In D4 I just finished Act 1 and I'm still enjoying the game. We'll see how long it lasts this time. | ||
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