EPTDiablo IV - Page 112
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Uldridge
Belgium4975 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On September 19 2023 23:21 Uldridge wrote: Both Starfield and AC 6 look like bland games to me. They seem to have very cookie cutter everything. What's the appeal exactly? Mechs! With a pretty deep combat system with a lot of depth And Starfield is just a big game with lots to do, some of the systems don’t feel super deep to me but even playing the mainline quest line alone will take a fair bit of time. Aside for some personal quibbles both those games broadly do what they advertised, which appealed to those who like such things. I’m still not sure what D4 is and it’s months since it’s been out. It can’t seem to decide if it should be a fun blast where more casual players do a bunch of play throughs get a few hundred hours of money well spent, or if it’s for hardcore ARPG fans who like the grind endgame/get better loot/grind more optimally/repeat kind of loop. I can’t honestly think of a game that suffers from such a divergent playerbase and trying (failing) to please everyone than Diablo since 2. I’d certainly be towards the casual end of the scale, but I do like a challenge in my games. Pushing through the mainline campaign is a bit of a cakewalk. Tbh maybe that’s just the genre, the only challenge I’ve tended to find was in Diablos 1/2 when I was like 8 and 11 playing them. But it was fun to get one’s arse kicked and overcome! Nonetheless for a casual player the challenge needs to be in the stock mainline game, not in endgame. As someone else pointed out perhaps just making a call and making D4 the definitive casual ARPG could have been prudent, but if not that call it feels they need to make SOME call. That said I wouldn’t look at various metrics and declare it as anything other than a pretty big commercial hit. It’s not going to keep big Twitch numbers as it’s not a super interesting Twitch watch for folks if they aren’t actively still playing. And I’d wager a huge amount of players got a fun couple of hundred hours off it and moved on. It IS a rather damning indictment of the seasonal model moving forwards of course. | ||
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0x64
Finland4596 Posts
It really kills my power fantasy. "you are the only one who can save the world but ignore that 20 level above you guy, he is killing the same monsters at the same speed" | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 20 2023 04:30 0x64 wrote: A slightly stupid design decision was to include random player on the map sometimes. It feels like the world is overrun by heroes, so much that you ignore them :D. It really kills my power fantasy. "you are the only one who can save the world but ignore that 20 level above you guy, he is killing the same monsters at the same speed" You mean "you are the only one who can save the world from that world boss that that bone spear necromancer will erase in 5 seconds". | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7009 Posts
I'm pretty close to uninstalling right now but I'll wait for these campfire talks to decide. And I never reinstall a game. Best example right now is CP 2077 with these huge updates and DLC's but I just can't be bothered to jump back into that game somehow, get used to the controls and skills again and stuff. Like i hate rewatching movies or re-reading books. Whats done is done | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17515 Posts
On September 20 2023 04:30 0x64 wrote: A slightly stupid design decision was to include random player on the map sometimes. It feels like the world is overrun by heroes, so much that you ignore them :D. It really kills my power fantasy. "you are the only one who can save the world but ignore that 20 level above you guy, he is killing the same monsters at the same speed" There's plenty of stupid design decisions and like it was mentioned previously it all pretty much boils down to Blizzard's indecision. 1. It is an MMO, but focuses mostly on single player experience. 2. It is a hardcore grinder, but also designed with casuals first. Very little actually makes sense in this game and the longer you look at it, the deeper you dive trying to understand the intricacies, the more it unravels and makes even less sense. Vast majority of the problems D4 is facing could be easily avoided if they simply had one clear vision and stuck to it instead of trying to do a bit of everything in an attempt to please everyone which results in nothing of it being any good for anyone really. Sure, there probably are plenty of casuals who beat the campaign and had a blast, but I doubt they're going to return every season to do that again, undermining one of the core design pillars for the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On September 20 2023 21:29 Manit0u wrote: There's plenty of stupid design decisions and like it was mentioned previously it all pretty much boils down to Blizzard's indecision. 1. It is an MMO, but focuses mostly on single player experience. 2. It is a hardcore grinder, but also designed with casuals first. Very little actually makes sense in this game and the longer you look at it, the deeper you dive trying to understand the intricacies, the more it unravels and makes even less sense. Vast majority of the problems D4 is facing could be easily avoided if they simply had one clear vision and stuck to it instead of trying to do a bit of everything in an attempt to please everyone which results in nothing of it being any good for anyone really. Sure, there probably are plenty of casuals who beat the campaign and had a blast, but I doubt they're going to return every season to do that again, undermining one of the core design pillars for the game. Pretty much. For me it’s a perfect rental (or in these days Game Pass) kind of game. Play the shit out of it over a weekend or two, have a blast, be done. Not a problem to be that kinda game, unless you’ve built it around seasons and people continuing to play and return. Honestly I’m not a great believer that a handful of individuals were responsible for that Blizzard magic and are irreplaceable, just needs a few new individuals, or the collective culture cracking a whip and bringing some focus and tightness to these projects. OW2 is even worse in this regard, I mean what the fuck was the vision there? It’s definitely my main worry for Stormgate, crowdsourcing too much feedback and almost doing design by committee rather than pursuing a vision with some strong core ideas. In fairness I’m slightly less worried about that these days. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On September 20 2023 21:29 Manit0u wrote: Very little actually makes sense in this game and the longer you look at it, the deeper you dive trying to understand the intricacies, the more it unravels and makes even less sense. Absolutely...until you view it from the lens of player retention metrics, interactions with the shop, seasonal model that mirrors financial quarters...then it all makes perfect sense. Everything is about maximizing profit. They have flat out said there are multiple teams working on Diablo 4 simultaneously, but all on different projects. For example one team on odd numbered season, another team on even numbered season. This assembly line approach to game making is impersonal and inefficient. It results in weak games that do not respect the player's time. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26214 Posts
On September 21 2023 05:28 Titusmaster6 wrote: Absolutely...until you view it from the lens of player retention metrics, interactions with the shop, seasonal model that mirrors financial quarters...then it all makes perfect sense. Everything is about maximizing profit. They have flat out said there are multiple teams working on Diablo 4 simultaneously, but all on different projects. For example one team on odd numbered season, another team on even numbered season. This assembly line approach to game making is impersonal and inefficient. It results in weak games that do not respect the player's time. Didn’t realise they were doing that, seems an odd way to work on a project like this Such rotation worked when Activision started releasing annual CoD games because there were separate studios working on separate games | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 21 2023 05:28 Titusmaster6 wrote: Absolutely...until you view it from the lens of player retention metrics, interactions with the shop, seasonal model that mirrors financial quarters...then it all makes perfect sense. Everything is about maximizing profit. They have flat out said there are multiple teams working on Diablo 4 simultaneously, but all on different projects. For example one team on odd numbered season, another team on even numbered season. This assembly line approach to game making is impersonal and inefficient. It results in weak games that do not respect the player's time. None of that would be a problem if they have a clear vision on who their core customer segment is. There is very little nowadays that can appeal to many segments at once. The most successful, profitable companies know exactly who they are catering to. If you end up with crossover appeal, fine. That's a nice bonus. Trying to appeal to different people with opposing tastes isn't going to work out. | ||
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On September 21 2023 07:08 andrewlt wrote: None of that would be a problem if they have a clear vision on who their core customer segment is. There is very little nowadays that can appeal to many segments at once. The most successful, profitable companies know exactly who they are catering to. If you end up with crossover appeal, fine. That's a nice bonus. Trying to appeal to different people with opposing tastes isn't going to work out. I get what you're saying and that was my initial impression as well. But the more evidence that comes out, the more I feel the foundational systems and mechanics of this game are based on showing impressive metrics and maximizing profit. They weren't specifically designed to appeal to one segment or another, it just ended up appearing directionless because well, they are directionless. Gameplay and enjoyment were not prioritized; profit and numbers were. In other words, I feel even if they picked a segment of players to cater to, the game would still not be good because they never truly cared in the first place. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14050 Posts
On September 21 2023 05:34 WombaT wrote: Didn’t realise they were doing that, seems an odd way to work on a project like this Such rotation worked when Activision started releasing annual CoD games because there were separate studios working on separate games Eh theres that adage that the more people you have on a project the less efficent you are. giveing half a team 6 months to do something instead of a whole team 3 month cycles is better. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
On September 25 2023 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uEKI_u4eMQ Overall I agree with what his sentiment is even though I think he didnt have to be so open ended or diplomatic on why D4 didnt work out. For me it's simple, it's a bad game because the company did a bad job | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
Haven't even finished the campaig for Diablo 4... It bored me and I'm not sure why :/ | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17515 Posts
They're making some really good points. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45141 Posts
On September 25 2023 08:08 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uEKI_u4eMQ While a lot of that Comeback Kids video above is accurate, Rhykker contextualizes and corrects a good amount of it: | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17109 Posts
On September 21 2023 05:28 Titusmaster6 wrote: Absolutely...until you view it from the lens of player retention metrics, interactions with the shop, seasonal model that mirrors financial quarters...then it all makes perfect sense. Everything is about maximizing profit. They have flat out said there are multiple teams working on Diablo 4 simultaneously, but all on different projects. For example one team on odd numbered season, another team on even numbered season. This assembly line approach to game making is impersonal and inefficient. It results in weak games that do not respect the player's time. CoD has been employing this model for a very long time. I'd say the top creatives for CoD are just flat out better than the people working on D4. That is the difference maker. Top BLizzard creatives behind Diablo like Pardo and Moshqueira are gone. Revenue model has always impacted design decisions in video games. nothing new here. The good news is that super talented Diablo3 designers like JOsh Moshqueira are over at Rob Pardo's 8 year old Bonfire Studios cranking out some great aRPG games! On September 25 2023 09:27 [Phantom] wrote: I'll be honest guys, I loved Diablo 2, Loved Diablo 3. Haven't even finished the campaig for Diablo 4... It bored me and I'm not sure why :/ same here. i quit playing and moved on to something i felt was fun. a tip of the cap to the ATVI marketing team. they sure suckered me in. at least way back in the day i could give someone my CD or cart. there was an active N64 cart trading scene. I traded for my copy of SC64. Now, i have to give blizzard support some cock and bull story when a friend of mine accidentally logs into my account from their place.. .because you know .. i was just at their house last week... ya.. that's what happened. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45141 Posts
On a side note, I just had a lazy Sunday where the wife and I were half-watching television and half-doing other things. My half- other thing was just sidequesting with my D4 Necro. Leveled from 20 to 40 in a single day, which felt kind of nice. | ||
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