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On January 20 2018 11:35 Archeon wrote:
All things considered the chaos waves are pretty disappointing and I'd rather see Chaos actually run over the north than just beeline 6 annoying armies to your outer provinces. I'd rather have an actual wave that forces you to make a last stand for 10 turns and then win a quest battle that possibly ends the campaign than what it's now tbh.
A guy named Archaeon being disappointed with the threat level of chaos, nothing suspicious going on here... While I don't disagree, I am sure you understand that I won't trust your post, totally-not-Archaon.
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Man, I wish they would implement some of the TK mechanics in VC (no upkeep and no recruitment cost but limited numbers).
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On January 20 2018 11:35 Archeon wrote:
Idk, by the time you start fighting the chaos invasion you are usually dominant enough that the game is pretty much over. This guy needs 13 turns to finish his campaign after dealing with chaos. So no, the campaign would definitely be doable without that kind of eco-cheese and he didn't take 40 turns to deal with chaos because chaos was an actual threat, but because they keep coming and you can't ignore them.
The different starts are very different in terms of enemies and strats and if you are playing for the challenge it's usually gone long before chaos invades (in fact I'd argue that chaos is supposed to be the lategame challenge à là stellaris endgame crisis).
All things considered the chaos waves are pretty disappointing and I'd rather see Chaos actually run over the north than just beeline 6 annoying armies to your outer provinces. I'd rather have an actual wave that forces you to make a last stand for 10 turns and then win a quest battle that possibly ends the campaign than what it's now tbh.
And yes, diplomacy is still bad, not as bad as at the start, but prepare to lead shitloads of wars against factions that are far away, have no reason to hate you or did get invited by people they hate on VH.
I think my main issue is that, with all the different factions and different starting positions the game has to offer, I would rather have the game be over faster and move on to the next campaign rather than do something tedious that easily takes up half of the hours played of any campaign. I am not a fan of repetitively artificially lengthening the campaign. There are so many factions that interest me and there's no way I'm fighting chaos with every single one of them. Total waste of time.
I remember when people complained that M:TW 1 was easily rushed and didn't take much time to finish. I finished that campaign around 10 times. I haven't done more than 3 campaigns on any since. Modern TW games are just too tedious in the mid to late game. It's only tolerable for people who auto-resolve the vast majority of their battles.
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@andrewlt
I definitely agree, but you can always play the original or Vortex for a shorter less tedious campaign. Snowballing is a basic problem for pretty much all 4x games and the only real answer existing atm is scripting large forces that can oppose #1 powers. Imo warhammer actually gives a decent background for a scripted force in the chaos invasion, although I'd agree that f.e. a rampant Skaven populace or undead wave would add some needed variety.
You could build anti-snowball mechanics like more revolts the larger you get, which is somewhat realistic, but 4x games are also a bit about power fantasy.
On January 20 2018 22:01 waffelz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 11:35 Archeon wrote:
All things considered the chaos waves are pretty disappointing and I'd rather see Chaos actually run over the north than just beeline 6 annoying armies to your outer provinces. I'd rather have an actual wave that forces you to make a last stand for 10 turns and then win a quest battle that possibly ends the campaign than what it's now tbh. A guy named Arch aeon being disappointed with the threat level of chaos, nothing suspicious going on here... While I don't disagree, I am sure you understand that I won't trust your post, totally-not-Archaon.
Wut, I have no idea what you're talking about! ME is not how the history of the WH world went, Archaon should definitely win 10 out of 10 times/always/crush everything be a serious threat, chaos tide should spawn 100 50 10 armies every turn after turn 30 to feel faithful to the original :O
On January 20 2018 19:58 akatama wrote:
Chaos feels like a "don't expand too fast" penalty to me. It would be a lot better if you were actually rewarded for fending off stacks, or better yet, rewards for attacking Chaos that is not in your lands (i.e. you seek to protect others and not just turtle it out). The bonus to relations is nice, sure, but after a while everyone has three digit relations with everyone and trying to attack someone at that point is just going to make everyone hate you.
I'd make the first wave of Chaos have some nice items as battle loot. Next, starting with the second wave, killing Chaos while in another faction's lands should give you a permanent relations boost (persisting even after Chaos is gone). This would let you overcome natural aversion, distrust and whatnot, providing some stable allies for the late game. Finally, make Archaon & co drop some followers with faction-wide bonuses the first time they die.
The problem is imo that it doesn't punish fast expansion because they always come from the sea. Which is really bad because it pronounces how stupid sea battles are. Anyways having more income equals having more armies and since Chaos spawns independent from the player strength having more armies makes the tide easier.
I'd really like to see Chaos get announced earlier, target close cities and snowball from cities razed. If f.e. Chaos would just raze shit from the north southwards and spawn an army every time they raze a city, players would benefit from trying to stop them early.
CA could also link some quest items to the Chaos tide for more of a positive motivation. It'd prolly be really annoying to run to the eastern empire from Teclis starting point, so maybe solving this over teleport fights might be better though. F.e. they could allow your LL to join every time a Chaos army attacks Kislev.
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I think that there simply should be 3 waves of chaos.
1. Turn 50. 4 full stacks of low tier chaos stuff (no more than T3). Not spawning together but across the norther part of the map (1 north of Naggarond, 1 north of Ulthuan, 1 at the westmost part of Norsca and one at the usual Archaon starting point).
2. Turn 100. As above, but T4 and 2 stacks per spot (8 total).
3. Turn 150. T5 and 3 stacks per spot (12 total).
This would make Chaos a problem (but not something you can't deal with) for every faction that has borders around the northern part of the map. Since you know when, where and what will spawn, you can deal with it right away if you want and save yourself a bother. There's also a chance that this might unbalance the global powers a bit, breaking status quo and making things a tad more interesting. Or, they could just make a really good AI for Archaon et. al. and let them play from the start, like a player would.
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Isn't that straight up weaker than what we have atm? I mean currently we have like 2 three-armies-stacks with t4 units at turn 70 (?) that all beeline for the player, which is much more dangerous than dealing with 2 separate armies and still as threatening as a minor Skaven faction.
I'm not against the waves of Chaos idea, but I'd like to have an option to disable them and have them a disaster that smashes major powers if they are enabled. The fact that they raze cities could accelerate late game quite a bit on paper.
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@Archeon, I've played enough 4x games that I've just accepted snowballing as an inherent part of the game. Efforts to fix the problem seem to annoy me more than help alleviate the problem. My solution is just to end the campaign and start a new one once I get bored with the snowball. I suppose I could do that once chaos spawns but I like to be in control of when I end my campaign.
I'm more ok with the way WH1 and the Vortex campaign works. I view those as story-based campaigns so I'm more accepting of scripted events. In fact, I expect scripted events in a story-based campaign. I expect ME to be more of a sandbox so I really want as few scripted events as possible.
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Fair enough, when Chaos spawns I'm usually about to stop my campaign anyways so I'd rather have one last big challenge. But that doesn't go for everyone and I can totally see why people don't really want it in their ME games. So I'd like to have it as an optional checkbox at the start of the campaign.
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The more I play ME, the more I hate the minor factions for dragging out the “next turn” button. There was something to be said for the more limited scope of WH1.
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I see two problem with the game as it is:
1- Past early game chaos is the only threat.
2- The supply lines mean basic units are just a bad investment. That’s a really big flaw, because thier one units are wayyyyy too costly if you add the supply cost.
The result is that there is no reason to have stacks of anything else but AP elite units. And that’s boring.
In my last hard dwarf campaign, I didn’t encounter a single real threat outside chaos past the early game. I welcomed chaos with uber doomstacks and the campaign was over. Not great..
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It is a hard 4X problem to solve without some sort of event that triggers massive end game challenges. Stellaris, with all it's flaws, tries to address this by having a bunch of flavors of end game crisis for players to deal with. And they are all baked into the early game, so you can pretty much see them coming.
Once you become number 1 in strength, I wish the AI would start ganging up on you or something to keep the challenge going. Or just introduce some crazy end game nightmares for players to take on. It would be fun to show up and see Highelves and Dark elves both deciding that fighting each other is dumb, but genocide of the lower races is awesome.
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In the long run I'd like to see a version that starts applying buffs to the top ai nation after a certain number of turns. Since the top AI nation still varies from game to game that should make for more interesting lategame. F.e. spawn an army in every region capital they have every 5 turns after turn 50, every 3 turns after turn 100 and every turn after turn 150. But that's a serious amount of development time.
I assume that CA is gonna change Chaos tide in tww3 when they rework and split Chaos, which gives them possibilities to do 4 different Chaos tides.
On January 23 2018 01:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I see two problem with the game as it is:
1- Past early game chaos is the only threat.
2- The supply lines mean basic units are just a bad investment. That’s a really big flaw, because thier one units are wayyyyy too costly if you add the supply cost.
The result is that there is no reason to have stacks of anything else but AP elite units. And that’s boring.
In my last hard dwarf campaign, I didn’t encounter a single real threat outside chaos past the early game. I welcomed chaos with uber doomstacks and the campaign was over. Not great..
Every streamer I've seen play legendary WCs has just spammed low tier stacks, so Idk about that entire elite untis are too cost effective. I'm playing with a WH1-supply cost mod and in my game upgrading further than the first siege weapons is on average a bad investment on VH.
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You can get away with spamming low tier stacks as long as you have something that can apply some heavy AP damage.
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Yeah but even then you need only one or two AP armies in an area you are conquering since the AI usually only has 1 or 2 high tier armies anyways. So the only thing you really need AP for is their Leader-stack and their capital usually.
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On January 23 2018 10:04 Archeon wrote:
Yeah but even then you need only one or two AP armies in an area you are conquering since the AI usually only has 1 or 2 high tier armies anyways. So the only thing you really need AP for is their Leader-stack and their capital usually.
I don’t think that this is the case. Mid-Late game enemy armies tend to have a ton of high tier (ie armored) units in them. There are a couple races where this is an exception, but not really among the late game powerhouse factions. I’ve seen streamers try going without AP in these circumstances, and they predictably get their shit ruined. I seem to recall having this discussion about a player who went with a tier 1 high elf army that had no AP and pointing out that he predictably got wrecked by a Dark Elf army that had some armored units in it.
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^yeah and I watched a lot of the run discussed there and that was pretty much the only battle he lost during the entire legendary run. Low tier armies conquer way faster and outside of chaos I've never seen a nation that would field more than three armies with multiple high armor (as in 100+) units (not counting Lords/heroes). So a single doom stack will still beat everything the AI throws at you if you don't missplay.
To boot the AI often splits their strong forces up so you can pretty much always fight 2 on 1 mid to lategame. 80 armor equals 60% reduction which is very mortal against a numbers advantage. The streamer was just too greedy and didn't have a backup army close by.
The problem with more costly armies is that they don't do more unless they actually fight a battle that they would normally loose. If you cheese siege battles and ai abuse there's very little that you can't do with 2 trash armies that you can do with a doom stack and 2 trash stacks will conquer much faster.
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Just bought Tomb Kings but nothing happens; I assume it's not out yet?
Does anyone know what time it's supposed to be released?
More excited by the rebalancing than by the actual new faction. I want to see some greenskins and skavens rolling rather than the same boring dawitide every game..
EDIT nevermind, it's at 3pm GMT
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Does anyone know the changes that are coming with tomb kings to the map? I’m not super interested in playing them, but I love fighting some skeleton trash armies.
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Really happy not to be fighting herds of bs vampire factions anymore. Btw they forgot Strygos Empire on that map?
Arabia is much needed to make not Africa really diverse and interesting though, but it's really a step ibn the right direction.
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EPT
