|
On January 09 2018 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 08:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 09 2018 07:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 08 2018 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 03 2018 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
Goddamn, fucking Skaven are eating my High Elf troops alive with their goddamned masses of catapults. I can't do shit against them in sieges without dragons, which I don't have yet. What skaven faction are you fighting against? In none of my campaigns did they ever managed to be relevant whatsoever. I reaaaaaaally hope that the TK patch nerfs the dawis and buffs massively greenskins and skavens. And stops the AI from being "scared" of invading corrupted land as that gives a really dumb inherent advantage to the VC. Now, Skaven artillery is some serious BS. If you bring an elite infantry army, you are signing up for a world of pain. I was playing as Teclis against Skrolk. Skrolk had like 4 catapults backstopping his army, which just annihilated my sword masters and everything else. Yeah, i feel your pain. Maybe that’s where silver helms become reaaaally necessary. High elves can do more or less without any cavalry or just dragon princes, but against such amazing artillery, you simply need a lot of mobility. The good yhong is that the AI sucks at protecting its artillery. I had a bunch of chariots, but the problem is that it was a siege map so I had no way to force effectively force them past the walls and the garrison to get them on the artillery. And I couldn't linger with my army and siege the city for an extended period of time due to bullshit Skaven ambush mechanics. Yeah then there is not much to do but just charge and hope to still be in one piece when you finally reach them. Chariots suck in siege battle, but unless you have a dragon, nothing really makes a big difference there. There is a problem with sieges and range in general. I found that for example, HE can win every siege vs DE by just throwing all their arrows from out of range before the fight even starts. Since towers have become almost insignificant, there is no meaningful way to defend against that.
The focus firing is one of the things I am pretty conflicted about in Total War games in general. I don’t mind it with elite troops that are clearly designed to nuke down a target. But the high elf’s ability to alpha strike down whole units with a mob of seaguard feels silly at times. 2000 orks charging the lines, but please focus down the 80 or so in the back ranks that have the heavy armor and axes. You can’t see them, but they are there. But the game is balanced around it, so I guess it isn't a huge deal.
|
On January 10 2018 03:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 08:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 09 2018 07:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 08 2018 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 03 2018 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
Goddamn, fucking Skaven are eating my High Elf troops alive with their goddamned masses of catapults. I can't do shit against them in sieges without dragons, which I don't have yet. What skaven faction are you fighting against? In none of my campaigns did they ever managed to be relevant whatsoever. I reaaaaaaally hope that the TK patch nerfs the dawis and buffs massively greenskins and skavens. And stops the AI from being "scared" of invading corrupted land as that gives a really dumb inherent advantage to the VC. Now, Skaven artillery is some serious BS. If you bring an elite infantry army, you are signing up for a world of pain. I was playing as Teclis against Skrolk. Skrolk had like 4 catapults backstopping his army, which just annihilated my sword masters and everything else. Yeah, i feel your pain. Maybe that’s where silver helms become reaaaally necessary. High elves can do more or less without any cavalry or just dragon princes, but against such amazing artillery, you simply need a lot of mobility. The good yhong is that the AI sucks at protecting its artillery. I had a bunch of chariots, but the problem is that it was a siege map so I had no way to force effectively force them past the walls and the garrison to get them on the artillery. And I couldn't linger with my army and siege the city for an extended period of time due to bullshit Skaven ambush mechanics. Yeah then there is not much to do but just charge and hope to still be in one piece when you finally reach them. Chariots suck in siege battle, but unless you have a dragon, nothing really makes a big difference there. There is a problem with sieges and range in general. I found that for example, HE can win every siege vs DE by just throwing all their arrows from out of range before the fight even starts. Since towers have become almost insignificant, there is no meaningful way to defend against that. The focus firing is one of the things I am pretty conflicted about in Total War games in general. I don’t mind it with elite troops that are clearly designed to nuke down a target. But the high elf’s ability to alpha strike down whole units with a mob of seaguard feels silly at times. 2000 orks charging the lines, but please focus down the 80 or so in the back ranks that have the heavy armor and axes. You can’t see them, but they are there. But the game is balanced around it, so I guess it isn't a huge deal.
Also units with an arc of fire are generally not armour piercing. I really like that you need a clear line of sight with gunpowder units and not with archers. Gives a usefulness to both.
And then there are dark elves who combine both with their crossbow blasters of course.
I would say my problem is really how much one can abuse range differences. I think you should be able to shoot past your « maximum » range with an increasingly steep penalty. Inversely shooting at point blank should be devastating.
|
On January 09 2018 07:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Glad to see the Skaven gunline bullshit has transferred from table top into Total WarHammer. It was all lightning cannons. None of this catapult sillyness. But just as bullshit. Notorious to tar pitting elite units with garbage skaven slaves and coring out the rest of the army with cannons, warp fire throwers and censor bearers. I remember it being so bad that a couple Skaven players had to promise to change tactics before people would agree to play.
My key when fighting skaven is to split my forces, push in and throw some trash at their cannons/catapults. They don’t have a single unit that can catch even the most garbage of cavalry. If I wait for the Skaven to come, they can just swamp me. At the same time, it’s not as if skaven had a wonderful roster outside their excellent artillery. I mean, without it they wouldn’t stand a chance. I hate dwarf vs skaven with a burning passion though. Without cavalry to shut down their bs, it’s really heartbreaking to see them just demolishing everything from a distance wit theit green, goofy sci fi cannons. Still, in campaign, they are beyond awful. Have you ever faced a strong skaven faction in SP?
Let me give you a hint:
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hcfV_Yuvm6Q/maxresdefault.jpg)
|
On January 11 2018 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2018 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 08:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 09 2018 07:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 08 2018 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 03 2018 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
Goddamn, fucking Skaven are eating my High Elf troops alive with their goddamned masses of catapults. I can't do shit against them in sieges without dragons, which I don't have yet. What skaven faction are you fighting against? In none of my campaigns did they ever managed to be relevant whatsoever. I reaaaaaaally hope that the TK patch nerfs the dawis and buffs massively greenskins and skavens. And stops the AI from being "scared" of invading corrupted land as that gives a really dumb inherent advantage to the VC. Now, Skaven artillery is some serious BS. If you bring an elite infantry army, you are signing up for a world of pain. I was playing as Teclis against Skrolk. Skrolk had like 4 catapults backstopping his army, which just annihilated my sword masters and everything else. Yeah, i feel your pain. Maybe that’s where silver helms become reaaaally necessary. High elves can do more or less without any cavalry or just dragon princes, but against such amazing artillery, you simply need a lot of mobility. The good yhong is that the AI sucks at protecting its artillery. I had a bunch of chariots, but the problem is that it was a siege map so I had no way to force effectively force them past the walls and the garrison to get them on the artillery. And I couldn't linger with my army and siege the city for an extended period of time due to bullshit Skaven ambush mechanics. Yeah then there is not much to do but just charge and hope to still be in one piece when you finally reach them. Chariots suck in siege battle, but unless you have a dragon, nothing really makes a big difference there. There is a problem with sieges and range in general. I found that for example, HE can win every siege vs DE by just throwing all their arrows from out of range before the fight even starts. Since towers have become almost insignificant, there is no meaningful way to defend against that. The focus firing is one of the things I am pretty conflicted about in Total War games in general. I don’t mind it with elite troops that are clearly designed to nuke down a target. But the high elf’s ability to alpha strike down whole units with a mob of seaguard feels silly at times. 2000 orks charging the lines, but please focus down the 80 or so in the back ranks that have the heavy armor and axes. You can’t see them, but they are there. But the game is balanced around it, so I guess it isn't a huge deal. Also units with an arc of fire are generally not armour piercing. I really like that you need a clear line of sight with gunpowder units and not with archers. Gives a usefulness to both. And then there are dark elves who combine both with their crossbow blasters of course. I would say my problem is really how much one can abuse range differences. I think you should be able to shoot past your « maximum » range with an increasingly steep penalty. Inversely shooting at point blank should be devastating.
In a way that's already in the game, archers (dunno about gunners) have higher precision at closer range.
|
On January 12 2018 13:20 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2018 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2018 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2018 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 08:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 09 2018 07:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 08 2018 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 03 2018 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
Goddamn, fucking Skaven are eating my High Elf troops alive with their goddamned masses of catapults. I can't do shit against them in sieges without dragons, which I don't have yet. What skaven faction are you fighting against? In none of my campaigns did they ever managed to be relevant whatsoever. I reaaaaaaally hope that the TK patch nerfs the dawis and buffs massively greenskins and skavens. And stops the AI from being "scared" of invading corrupted land as that gives a really dumb inherent advantage to the VC. Now, Skaven artillery is some serious BS. If you bring an elite infantry army, you are signing up for a world of pain. I was playing as Teclis against Skrolk. Skrolk had like 4 catapults backstopping his army, which just annihilated my sword masters and everything else. Yeah, i feel your pain. Maybe that’s where silver helms become reaaaally necessary. High elves can do more or less without any cavalry or just dragon princes, but against such amazing artillery, you simply need a lot of mobility. The good yhong is that the AI sucks at protecting its artillery. I had a bunch of chariots, but the problem is that it was a siege map so I had no way to force effectively force them past the walls and the garrison to get them on the artillery. And I couldn't linger with my army and siege the city for an extended period of time due to bullshit Skaven ambush mechanics. Yeah then there is not much to do but just charge and hope to still be in one piece when you finally reach them. Chariots suck in siege battle, but unless you have a dragon, nothing really makes a big difference there. There is a problem with sieges and range in general. I found that for example, HE can win every siege vs DE by just throwing all their arrows from out of range before the fight even starts. Since towers have become almost insignificant, there is no meaningful way to defend against that. The focus firing is one of the things I am pretty conflicted about in Total War games in general. I don’t mind it with elite troops that are clearly designed to nuke down a target. But the high elf’s ability to alpha strike down whole units with a mob of seaguard feels silly at times. 2000 orks charging the lines, but please focus down the 80 or so in the back ranks that have the heavy armor and axes. You can’t see them, but they are there. But the game is balanced around it, so I guess it isn't a huge deal. Also units with an arc of fire are generally not armour piercing. I really like that you need a clear line of sight with gunpowder units and not with archers. Gives a usefulness to both. And then there are dark elves who combine both with their crossbow blasters of course. I would say my problem is really how much one can abuse range differences. I think you should be able to shoot past your « maximum » range with an increasingly steep penalty. Inversely shooting at point blank should be devastating. In a way that's already in the game, archers (dunno about gunners) have higher precision at closer range.
That’s true. But I wish that, say, a dwarf cannon was just a terror at point blank. I mean it should be, really, especially against monsters.
|
On January 12 2018 09:11 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2018 07:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Glad to see the Skaven gunline bullshit has transferred from table top into Total WarHammer. It was all lightning cannons. None of this catapult sillyness. But just as bullshit. Notorious to tar pitting elite units with garbage skaven slaves and coring out the rest of the army with cannons, warp fire throwers and censor bearers. I remember it being so bad that a couple Skaven players had to promise to change tactics before people would agree to play.
My key when fighting skaven is to split my forces, push in and throw some trash at their cannons/catapults. They don’t have a single unit that can catch even the most garbage of cavalry. If I wait for the Skaven to come, they can just swamp me. At the same time, it’s not as if skaven had a wonderful roster outside their excellent artillery. I mean, without it they wouldn’t stand a chance. I hate dwarf vs skaven with a burning passion though. Without cavalry to shut down their bs, it’s really heartbreaking to see them just demolishing everything from a distance wit theit green, goofy sci fi cannons. Still, in campaign, they are beyond awful. Have you ever faced a strong skaven faction in SP? Let me give you a hint:
Howling warpgale and globadier or warp lightning cannons get you an insta dawi remake of black hawk down.
Admittedly the AI is probably not smart enough for that but in MP, choppers ain’t a great idea afaik.
|
On January 12 2018 20:25 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 09:11 Manit0u wrote:On January 09 2018 07:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:32 Plansix wrote:
Glad to see the Skaven gunline bullshit has transferred from table top into Total WarHammer. It was all lightning cannons. None of this catapult sillyness. But just as bullshit. Notorious to tar pitting elite units with garbage skaven slaves and coring out the rest of the army with cannons, warp fire throwers and censor bearers. I remember it being so bad that a couple Skaven players had to promise to change tactics before people would agree to play.
My key when fighting skaven is to split my forces, push in and throw some trash at their cannons/catapults. They don’t have a single unit that can catch even the most garbage of cavalry. If I wait for the Skaven to come, they can just swamp me. At the same time, it’s not as if skaven had a wonderful roster outside their excellent artillery. I mean, without it they wouldn’t stand a chance. I hate dwarf vs skaven with a burning passion though. Without cavalry to shut down their bs, it’s really heartbreaking to see them just demolishing everything from a distance wit theit green, goofy sci fi cannons. Still, in campaign, they are beyond awful. Have you ever faced a strong skaven faction in SP? Let me give you a hint: Howling warpgale and globadier or warp lightning cannons get you an insta dawi remake of black hawk down. Admittedly the AI is probably not smart enough for that but in MP, choppers ain’t a great idea afaik.
Most flying ranged units are pretty meh in multiplayer, with a few exceptions. But the choppers just get alpha striked the instant they get in range.
|
On January 12 2018 20:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2018 13:20 Archeon wrote:On January 11 2018 20:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 10 2018 03:11 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2018 18:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 08:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 09 2018 07:50 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 09 2018 07:40 xDaunt wrote:On January 08 2018 20:32 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 03 2018 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
Goddamn, fucking Skaven are eating my High Elf troops alive with their goddamned masses of catapults. I can't do shit against them in sieges without dragons, which I don't have yet. What skaven faction are you fighting against? In none of my campaigns did they ever managed to be relevant whatsoever. I reaaaaaaally hope that the TK patch nerfs the dawis and buffs massively greenskins and skavens. And stops the AI from being "scared" of invading corrupted land as that gives a really dumb inherent advantage to the VC. Now, Skaven artillery is some serious BS. If you bring an elite infantry army, you are signing up for a world of pain. I was playing as Teclis against Skrolk. Skrolk had like 4 catapults backstopping his army, which just annihilated my sword masters and everything else. Yeah, i feel your pain. Maybe that’s where silver helms become reaaaally necessary. High elves can do more or less without any cavalry or just dragon princes, but against such amazing artillery, you simply need a lot of mobility. The good yhong is that the AI sucks at protecting its artillery. I had a bunch of chariots, but the problem is that it was a siege map so I had no way to force effectively force them past the walls and the garrison to get them on the artillery. And I couldn't linger with my army and siege the city for an extended period of time due to bullshit Skaven ambush mechanics. Yeah then there is not much to do but just charge and hope to still be in one piece when you finally reach them. Chariots suck in siege battle, but unless you have a dragon, nothing really makes a big difference there. There is a problem with sieges and range in general. I found that for example, HE can win every siege vs DE by just throwing all their arrows from out of range before the fight even starts. Since towers have become almost insignificant, there is no meaningful way to defend against that. The focus firing is one of the things I am pretty conflicted about in Total War games in general. I don’t mind it with elite troops that are clearly designed to nuke down a target. But the high elf’s ability to alpha strike down whole units with a mob of seaguard feels silly at times. 2000 orks charging the lines, but please focus down the 80 or so in the back ranks that have the heavy armor and axes. You can’t see them, but they are there. But the game is balanced around it, so I guess it isn't a huge deal. Also units with an arc of fire are generally not armour piercing. I really like that you need a clear line of sight with gunpowder units and not with archers. Gives a usefulness to both. And then there are dark elves who combine both with their crossbow blasters of course. I would say my problem is really how much one can abuse range differences. I think you should be able to shoot past your « maximum » range with an increasingly steep penalty. Inversely shooting at point blank should be devastating. In a way that's already in the game, archers (dunno about gunners) have higher precision at closer range. That’s true. But I wish that, say, a dwarf cannon was just a terror at point blank. I mean it should be, really, especially against monsters.
Idk, if monsters marched over the entire battlefield next to the cannon I don't think the cannon should win the close quarters fight.
Like sure, I can see a large cannon being good vs monsters, but mainly due to increased accuracy. I don't think distance dampens such a fast bullet by that much in the real world and I don't think it's meaningful for balance. Hellblasters f.e. really shouldn't rip rat ogres apart at close range. I also think units like Kroxigors and Giants should be handled in different ways.
Overall I think I'd like to see less precision and firerate and more damage from artillery, but straight up buffing arty across the board would make them incredibly broken in SP. That being said I think artillery and monsters both are in a good spot in TWW2, I wish I could say the same about cavalry.
|
Sooo, the patch notes of RotTK look really quite awesome.
Dwarf and Norsca campaign nerfs, greenskin fightiness fix, Bretonnia improvements, blobing and general battle AI fixed, Skaven autoresolve buff, four new unique buildings in the old world...
On top of that Dwarves have more mass, which will be really interesting in multiplayer. Chariots and cavalry won't be such a nightmare anymore to dawi players, it looks. Watching sturdy longbeards flying around like feathers has been painful since game 1...
That's really a lot of good stuff, I'm looking forward.
|
Category caps: max 9 for missile inf, monsters & beasts, cavalry & chariots. Doomwheels limited to max 2 in Quick Battle.
What is this cap for? Does it only apply to quick battle or does it also apply to the campaign? Does this cap mean you can only have 9 total missile infantry, monsters, cavalry and chariots or does it mean that you can have up to 9 of each category of unit?
|
On January 19 2018 02:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +Category caps: max 9 for missile inf, monsters & beasts, cavalry & chariots. Doomwheels limited to max 2 in Quick Battle. What is this cap for? Does it only apply to quick battle or does it also apply to the campaign? Does this cap mean you can only have 9 total missile infantry, monsters, cavalry and chariots or does it mean that you can have up to 9 of each category of unit?
We’ll have to wait and see. Has to apply to campaign.
Honestly any change that limits really goofy ai stacks and uber cheeses on mp is welcome although i can see how a legit skirmish wood elf build could be hurt by that change.
|
On January 19 2018 02:29 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +Category caps: max 9 for missile inf, monsters & beasts, cavalry & chariots. Doomwheels limited to max 2 in Quick Battle. What is this cap for? Does it only apply to quick battle or does it also apply to the campaign? Does this cap mean you can only have 9 total missile infantry, monsters, cavalry and chariots or does it mean that you can have up to 9 of each category of unit?
You have no idea. You don't get to see people's line ups in any way, only the faction. So quick battles can be fun or someone just rolling the dice and bringing some bullshit army they are hoping you don't have a counter for.
The Skaven are a good example. There is this amazing max skaven slave, Skrolk + 2 plague priest army that you can build that is pretty hard to fight. Or the mass doomwheel army that would roll over anything that would fight the skaven slave army. The all missile infantry army is also the fucking worst. There is this troll high elf army of all seaguard and T-lord with doom flock that gives me nightmares.
The caps are a good way to limit that the bullshit and build armies designed to function, not troll with a throw of the dice. In the table top game, they had similar limits for the same reasons.
|
Yeah, I understand generally that the caps are there to prevent cheese. I'm just curious as to how it's applied in the game.
|
Right now it is unit limits(6 per unit) and they grey out when you have 6. All the selections are divided up by unit type(missile, infantry, monster). I assume they will grey out once you have the limit of that type, just like when you pick six phoenix guard(and then lose, because why?). The end result will be more melee focused, readable armies, which will be nice. The end of battles is sort of a slog if one side goes range heavy.
|
It makes sense for multiplayer. I hope it's not there for single player. For example, Isabella in my VC campaign had all banshees and vargheists. But that's what she was good for.
|
Personally, I like to see them add it to single player and make exceptions for specific lords. Except for infantry, which are the “core” regiments of the warhammer.
Where is my table top army builder mods? Give me that limits on elites.
|
On January 19 2018 04:09 Plansix wrote:
Personally, I like to see them add it to single player and make exceptions for specific lords. Except for infantry, which are the “core” regiments of the warhammer.
Where is my table top army builder mods? Give me that limits on elites.
Yeah we need that.
Even longbeards became completely irrelevant in my latest dwarf run. Dwarf warriors should be the bread and butter of dawis up to the endgame, but what costs anyway is not upkeep but extra armies, so it’s simply better to make few uber elite stacks than many balanced armies.
|
On January 19 2018 18:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 04:09 Plansix wrote:
Personally, I like to see them add it to single player and make exceptions for specific lords. Except for infantry, which are the “core” regiments of the warhammer.
Where is my table top army builder mods? Give me that limits on elites.
Yeah we need that. Even longbeards became completely irrelevant in my latest dwarf run. Dwarf warriors should be the bread and butter of dawis up to the endgame, but what costs anyway is not upkeep but extra armies, so it’s simply better to make few uber elite stacks than many balanced armies.
I strongly disagree. Don't like cheese? Don't use it. When it comes to apply certain limitations to the AI / improve the AI compositions I wont object to that, but limiting the player in the way he can build his armies in general is a very bad idea in my opinion. While I like to oppose some limitations on myself when playing, I would never dare to ask having someone elses game impacted by it. Let everyone chose his own 'fun'.
Multiplayer imitations are fine but leave the singleplayer alone with those restrictions.
EDIT: and by multiplayer I mean quick battle, not head-to-head / coop
|
I think the restrictions could be fine in single player if the legendary lords had exceptions. Half the fun of the table top game is trying to build the armies with those restrictions. The same with other army construction games like Flames of War(Russian infantry for life). They don’t need to be too limiting, but I would like a little more pressure in my army construction than just building weird doom stacks. It can be an optional setting to adjust the difficulty for players.
|
On January 20 2018 00:40 Plansix wrote:
I think the restrictions could be fine in single player if the legendary lords had exceptions. Half the fun of the table top game is trying to build the armies with those restrictions. The same with other army construction games like Flames of War(Russian infantry for life). They don’t need to be too limiting, but I would like a little more pressure in my army construction than just building weird doom stacks. It can be an optional setting to adjust the difficulty for players.
But why? Unless you lack the determination to follow your own rules I just cant see anything good in forcing this. Optional settings would be fine, but it just seems like something that would straight up be a waste of developmentresources.
I admit that I might be a bit ignorant on the subject. I am used to often play my own game inside the game by making up restrictions and whatnot, making my own story, bringing in RPG elements and all that. So I might just lack the perspective to understand that someone NEEDS these restriction to not be completely made up for them to work for his immersion. It just doesn't feel very believeable to me, but again I am so used to using my own rules that I might have gotten used to it to a point where I no longer remember if it ever was any different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
